In the filing, Reddit calls Anthropic a “late-blooming artificial intelligence (‘AI’) company that bills itself as the white knight of the AI industry,” alleging that “it is anything but.”
“This case is about the two faces of Anthropic: the public face that attempts to ingratiate itself into the consumer’s consciousness with claims of righteousness and respect for boundaries and the law, and the private face that ignores any rules that interfere with its attempts to further line its pockets.”
I mean, Reddit’s objection is that they want to sell the same data to Google to do the same training.
paraphrand@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 02:25
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I dunno, it just reads like a reddit comment to me. 🤣
NegentropicBoy@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 02:48
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For the concerns I have about AI and stealing others work, I want to see Reddit burn for pretending that they are all about community and connection, while actively harming their users’ experience on the platform and attempting to profit off their content.
NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 02:44
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Yeah, something about a company making billions of dollars off completely user generated content and moderation just runs me the wrong way. As much as I hate Facebook, they at least pay people to do moderation there, and regularly update their site (as shitty as it is). I dont use either anymore, and I hope they die in a pit of flames owing billions to their shareholders.
ryannathans@aussie.zone
on 05 Jun 03:31
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Shareholders of these companies are likely you or I, as they are so big they are significant parts of index funds purchased by retirement funds and the like
NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 03:41
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Maybe, I still hope the go belly up. My 401k isn’t worth supporting companies that spread deliberate disinformation. (Looking at you facebook). Hell, when the stock market took a nosedive over tarrifs, I pulled my entire 401k and put it into foreign investments to try to further the crash. Literally the only thing these dipsticks understand is money, and if they’re losing it, thats when they pay attention.
A lot of people don’t realise that around 40% of the value of the S&P 500, and the majority of the Nasdaq 100 (i.e. QQQM) is big tech companies.
You could always build a portfolio that excludes companies you feel are unethical (for example, exclude oil and gas companies, exclude big tech, etc), but if you were to exclude all companies that have done something unethical then you’d probably end up with the S&P 0 (an empty list)
Maybe our quality of life, livelihood, and retirements should not be bound to the success of for-profit corporations?
This is the greatest grift of all time. Binding the average citizen’s, and governmental, wealth to the success of private corporations means that the economic success of those corporations, and the oligarchs who own them, become equal to “national security”; thus they are violently protected by the state, even when their actions and success are the antithesis of democracy.
I agree, but unfortunately it’s a reality of a capitalist society that large private companies have a lot of the wealth, and so people set themselves up for retirement by owning a very tiny part of those companies.
NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 11:59
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Our retirement plans didn’t used to be tied to the stock market. So clearly there’s a way to have retirement plans that don’t tie the entire middle class to the success of every large corporation.
Well, there’s the Defined Benefit pension, however typically these pension funds then become institutional investors who seek to own shares in… you guessed it - stocks.
At least those institutional investors are at least somewhat responsive to public pressure campaigns, as the state/local comptrollers are a politically appointed position.
When you give your money to a 401k, the fund manager gets all the voting rights on the corporate board and is generally only accountable to “A reasonable rate of return”
As much as I hate Facebook, they at least pay people to do moderation there, and regularly update their site
Facebook pays content creators too (creators.facebook.com/earn-money ), including for things other than videos (like photo/image posts). Platforms like YouTube do too, but as far as I know, Reddit doesn’t.
100,000 requests in 11 months? That’s about 12.5 requests an hour
grysbok@lemmy.sdf.org
on 05 Jun 05:56
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That’s hardly anything. Facebook has a bot accessing my server’s robots.txt multiple times a second.
(My robots.txt used to say “Facebook bot go away” but now I just respond 404 to any requests from the Facebook bot. Pretend I said that all technical and stuff, it’s 2 am and I ought to go to sleep.)
Israel, US, China, North Korea, India and other countries… Nuclear Lobby, Fossil Fuel Lobby and countless other industry lobbyists… Private companies advertising their products…
This is like one of those cases where I’m kind of hoping they both lose somehow. Neither party are right in this case, Reddit is trying to claim copyright over content they have no rights to, and anthropic shouldn’t be violating copyright without a licence.
But apparently you are actually allowed to violate copyright without a licence if you’re an AI company because apparently llms are the future? So I guess Reddit are going to lose, which will be funny.
rikudou@lemmings.world
on 05 Jun 08:00
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You mean Reddit, the company that would be very happy if Anthropic did the exact same thing, but paid Reddit first?
FiskFisk33@startrek.website
on 05 Jun 08:25
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I am squarely on the reddit should lose this side.
Anthropic may be breaking copyright, but not Reddit’s copyright. Sure maybe Anthropic should be sued, but not by Reddit.
Actually this case could be a good thing. The whole question of who owns user generated content needs hashing out, because no one seems to actually know.
Obviously the logical answer would be that the people who created it own the content, but that’s never been officially decided.
The whole question of who owns user generated content needs hashing out, because no one seems to actually know.
It’s billionaires. They know. They just sometimes squable over it like two year olds. But they know. They pay lawyers to make it clear in thousand page terms of service documents.
Saledovil@sh.itjust.works
on 05 Jun 10:20
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Judge finds that anthropic has to pay restitution to the reddit users. Affirms that posts belong to users.
Well, I can dream.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 15:39
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“Violating copyright without a licence” is a lovely turn of phrase. You must be the valedictorian of the Lemmy School of Copyright.
“Reddit’s humanity is uniquely valuable in a world flattened by AI,“ Lee said. ”Now more than ever, people are seeking authentic human-to-human conversation. Reddit hosts nearly 20 years of rich, human discussion on virtually every topic imaginable. These conversations don’t happen anywhere else—and they’re central to training language models like Claude.”
LMAO, reddit’s days of genuine conversations between humans is long gone.
The content’s theirs whether they win or not, isn’t it? It’s in the EULA when you sign up.
Edit: Here’s the clause.
You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content, but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content:
When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. For example, this license includes the right to use Your Content to train AI and machine learning models, as further described in our Public Content Policy. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content.
It certainly reads that way. Gonna start a Reddit User Collective? Licence it to Anthropic at a discount to undercut Reddit? That could be pretty funny.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 15:18
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That would be legally possible, though, obviously, you would have to pay for your own servers.
I don’t see why. Users own the content wherever it’s located. Reddit, of course, would be free to remove that content, but that would be cutting off their own nose to spite their face and is also acceptable.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 16:06
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You don’t see why you would need your own servers? Do you see why unauthorized access to a computer system might be illegal?
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 15:11
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No. Just because you own a copyright, doesn’t mean that you are entitled to free network services. If you owned the copyright to a movie, would you expect free tickets for any cinema showing it?
Non-exclusive just means you’re free to give a copy of your content to whoever you want. It doesn’t mean Reddit is obligated to distribute it for you.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 15:24
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No. I am not aware of any law that makes you liable by holding or claiming the copyright to some content. EG you may have to pay damages for libel, but not because you have copyright to the libelous statement.
You’re telling me that someone can get popped for mistakenly visiting the dark side of the internet and having whatever-the-fuck horrible shit put on their machine, but owning the content and hosting it on your servers results in nothing?
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 18:57
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Not quite.
Generally, sites aren’t liable for user generated content as long as they follow some rules. They need to take down illegal content and provide some way of reporting such content. In the US, that’s the whole DMCA takedown thing. The whole content ID thing, that YouTube does, might not be strictly necessary, but it was rolled out in response to a high-stakes lawsuit. The EU is, as always, more strict in these matters.
People are not punished for things beyond their control (but mind that a fine is not the same as damages). If you are sent illegal content, that you have not requested, you shouldn’t expect formal punishment, though the investigation may be punishing in itself. If you simply don’t know how caching works, you’re probably in trouble.
But this was about copyright. I don’t think you get punished anywhere for holding some copyright. Say some Japanese Manga artist travels to some European state where some of their works are illegal. They’re not going to get arrested for that. Anyone who brings such illegal works into the country will not be so lucky, regardless of copyright.
Long story short: They are not combatting bots on their platform. They sold training data to google and these guys aren’t paying, that’s why they’re suing.
Obviously Reddit isn’t averse to bots scraping the site for data, just ones that aren’t paying them. I’m regretting not going through and systematically deleting all my posts and comments before deleting my account, but I thought that happened automatically.
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au
on 05 Jun 16:12
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I deleted all my posts and my account and they restored them all and then permanently banned me. They can recover anything they want to.
Do you really believe they don’t have backups? Especially since it seems selling content for AI training was their plan for quite a while?
Or that they didn’t make full backups a couple years ago before the protest, anticipating a lot of users would try to delete their comments?
I think the only way to truly delete anything from reddit would be living in EU and enforcing a GDPR request, but even in that case, I believe it would be very difficult to check they actually comply.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 05 Jun 22:58
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I think the only way to truly delete anything from reddit would be living in EU and enforcing a GDPR request, but even in that case, I believe it would be very difficult to check they actually comply.
Wouldn’t work. GDPR is not copyright. Deleting the username is enough, unless you have doxed yourself in some post.
Rather, it can be argued that GDPR requires restoring comments at least in some situations. Comments may be necessary context to understand replies or even other posts.
it wouldnt have mattered anyway if you left during the time most people did. Reddit rolled back mass deleted data and manually deleted accounts during that duration so that comments remained without usernames.
I don’t regret not deleting all my comments. For me, It’s a mishmash of helpful/comedic/observational comments that I don’t care that they have sold off for use as training data.
But, I just got shadowbanned, because of my VPN or something, so they aren’t getting any more!
threaded - newest
I mean, Reddit’s objection is that they want to sell the same data to Google to do the same training.
I dunno, it just reads like a reddit comment to me. 🤣
So who owns the data?
Well they already sold it for 60 million and I didnt get a dime, so not me apparently.
Reddit, created by users and Russian bots
They actually quite that in a real legal filing?
Jesus.
Did they ask /r/pettyrevenge to write that?
Suck shit reddit.
Thought they signed up for that.
Reddit is just mad that Anthropic didn’t pay them
Yes that is how capitalism works
The Users posted for free. They didn’t get paid. They should be publicly available for scraping
As the fediverse gods intended
.
Nah which is why I give a shit about the capitalist argument. Steal everything
I’m a reddit user, where’s my share?!?!
… Yes?
“We’re the front page of the Internet!”
“No, not like that…”
“We’re the front page of the Internet! …as long as the front page isn’t scraped…” >:(
I hope they lose this case badly.
For the concerns I have about AI and stealing others work, I want to see Reddit burn for pretending that they are all about community and connection, while actively harming their users’ experience on the platform and attempting to profit off their content.
Yeah, something about a company making billions of dollars off completely user generated content and moderation just runs me the wrong way. As much as I hate Facebook, they at least pay people to do moderation there, and regularly update their site (as shitty as it is). I dont use either anymore, and I hope they die in a pit of flames owing billions to their shareholders.
Shareholders of these companies are likely you or I, as they are so big they are significant parts of index funds purchased by retirement funds and the like
Maybe, I still hope the go belly up. My 401k isn’t worth supporting companies that spread deliberate disinformation. (Looking at you facebook). Hell, when the stock market took a nosedive over tarrifs, I pulled my entire 401k and put it into foreign investments to try to further the crash. Literally the only thing these dipsticks understand is money, and if they’re losing it, thats when they pay attention.
A lot of people don’t realise that around 40% of the value of the S&P 500, and the majority of the Nasdaq 100 (i.e. QQQM) is big tech companies.
You could always build a portfolio that excludes companies you feel are unethical (for example, exclude oil and gas companies, exclude big tech, etc), but if you were to exclude all companies that have done something unethical then you’d probably end up with the S&P 0 (an empty list)
Maybe our quality of life, livelihood, and retirements should not be bound to the success of for-profit corporations?
This is the greatest grift of all time. Binding the average citizen’s, and governmental, wealth to the success of private corporations means that the economic success of those corporations, and the oligarchs who own them, become equal to “national security”; thus they are violently protected by the state, even when their actions and success are the antithesis of democracy.
I agree, but unfortunately it’s a reality of a capitalist society that large private companies have a lot of the wealth, and so people set themselves up for retirement by owning a very tiny part of those companies.
Our retirement plans didn’t used to be tied to the stock market. So clearly there’s a way to have retirement plans that don’t tie the entire middle class to the success of every large corporation.
Well, there’s the Defined Benefit pension, however typically these pension funds then become institutional investors who seek to own shares in… you guessed it - stocks.
At least those institutional investors are at least somewhat responsive to public pressure campaigns, as the state/local comptrollers are a politically appointed position.
When you give your money to a 401k, the fund manager gets all the voting rights on the corporate board and is generally only accountable to “A reasonable rate of return”
Facebook pays content creators too (creators.facebook.com/earn-money ), including for things other than videos (like photo/image posts). Platforms like YouTube do too, but as far as I know, Reddit doesn’t.
No matter who wins, everyone loses.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmynsfw.com/pictrs/image/3b265cd4-48ec-4c87-bc23-3fc73f003d5a.jpeg">
I can’t believe you beat me to this. Well done.
Inconceivable!
You’ve fallen for one of the classic blunders!
I just watched this movie last week. Its got so many good lines.
Oof owie my hemochromatosis.
Isn’t this just blackmail by reddit?
I hope they both choke on their own bots.
100.000 accesses isn’t that much, right?
Back in the day that’s about how many times I accessed reddit a week.
100,000 requests in 11 months? That’s about 12.5 requests an hour
That’s hardly anything. Facebook has a bot accessing my server’s robots.txt multiple times a second. (My robots.txt used to say “Facebook bot go away” but now I just respond 404 to any requests from the Facebook bot. Pretend I said that all technical and stuff, it’s 2 am and I ought to go to sleep.)
That’s what I’m sayin! I make more than 12.5 requests an hour to lemmy and I’m a human I’m 90.00000000000001% sure
I wonder if I can get Facebook to give me some of that sweet, sweet cash for the inconvenience of telling them to bugger off…
Some legitimate users probably submit more requests than that
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8a876354-50a3-4ca9-ad4c-719daaab29ad.gif">
Edit: I guess great minds think alike.
Ehh… fuck reddit. They made the bed
Fuck Reddit
while half of reddit is infested with propaganda bots from russia.
Not just Russia.
Israel, US, China, North Korea, India and other countries… Nuclear Lobby, Fossil Fuel Lobby and countless other industry lobbyists… Private companies advertising their products…
But have you seen Rampart?
First of all, I have not seen it, and second off, I don’t want to see it. Lets focus on the Reddit lawsuit.
Spez can forever get fucked
hope reddit loses
This is like one of those cases where I’m kind of hoping they both lose somehow. Neither party are right in this case, Reddit is trying to claim copyright over content they have no rights to, and anthropic shouldn’t be violating copyright without a licence.
But apparently you are actually allowed to violate copyright without a licence if you’re an AI company because apparently llms are the future? So I guess Reddit are going to lose, which will be funny.
You mean Reddit, the company that would be very happy if Anthropic did the exact same thing, but paid Reddit first?
I am squarely on the reddit should lose this side.
Anthropic may be breaking copyright, but not Reddit’s copyright. Sure maybe Anthropic should be sued, but not by Reddit.
Actually this case could be a good thing. The whole question of who owns user generated content needs hashing out, because no one seems to actually know.
Obviously the logical answer would be that the people who created it own the content, but that’s never been officially decided.
Because that’s the only common sense conclusion to make, but that doesnt make rich fucks more money
Yeah maybe we shouldn’t have the case in the US where money rules everything.
EU get on it.
It’s billionaires. They know. They just sometimes squable over it like two year olds. But they know. They pay lawyers to make it clear in thousand page terms of service documents.
Judge finds that anthropic has to pay restitution to the reddit users. Affirms that posts belong to users.
Well, I can dream.
“Violating copyright without a licence” is a lovely turn of phrase. You must be the valedictorian of the Lemmy School of Copyright.
Is it violating copyright to browse the web?
I think it’s acceptable as long as you don’t learn anything.
Aren’t the copyrights still belonging to the original authors? What is Reddit suing for? The header and the footer? 🤔
Bots? On Reddit!?
It’s more likely than you think!
LMAO, reddit’s days of genuine conversations between humans is long gone.
.
So if reddit wins, that means the content is theirs. So if the content is theirs, they are liable for any content that is illegal. Is that true?
The content’s theirs whether they win or not, isn’t it? It’s in the EULA when you sign up.
Edit: Here’s the clause.
That means we can license all our content to another company, and Reddit would be forced to allow them to fetch it, as we still own it, right?
It certainly reads that way. Gonna start a Reddit User Collective? Licence it to Anthropic at a discount to undercut Reddit? That could be pretty funny.
That would be legally possible, though, obviously, you would have to pay for your own servers.
In practice, it wouldn’t be worth anyone’s time.
I don’t see why. Users own the content wherever it’s located. Reddit, of course, would be free to remove that content, but that would be cutting off their own nose to spite their face and is also acceptable.
You don’t see why you would need your own servers? Do you see why unauthorized access to a computer system might be illegal?
No. Just because you own a copyright, doesn’t mean that you are entitled to free network services. If you owned the copyright to a movie, would you expect free tickets for any cinema showing it?
Non-exclusive just means you’re free to give a copy of your content to whoever you want. It doesn’t mean Reddit is obligated to distribute it for you.
No. I am not aware of any law that makes you liable by holding or claiming the copyright to some content. EG you may have to pay damages for libel, but not because you have copyright to the libelous statement.
Doesn’t quite make sense.
You’re telling me that someone can get popped for mistakenly visiting the dark side of the internet and having whatever-the-fuck horrible shit put on their machine, but owning the content and hosting it on your servers results in nothing?
Not quite.
Generally, sites aren’t liable for user generated content as long as they follow some rules. They need to take down illegal content and provide some way of reporting such content. In the US, that’s the whole DMCA takedown thing. The whole content ID thing, that YouTube does, might not be strictly necessary, but it was rolled out in response to a high-stakes lawsuit. The EU is, as always, more strict in these matters.
People are not punished for things beyond their control (but mind that a fine is not the same as damages). If you are sent illegal content, that you have not requested, you shouldn’t expect formal punishment, though the investigation may be punishing in itself. If you simply don’t know how caching works, you’re probably in trouble.
But this was about copyright. I don’t think you get punished anywhere for holding some copyright. Say some Japanese Manga artist travels to some European state where some of their works are illegal. They’re not going to get arrested for that. Anyone who brings such illegal works into the country will not be so lucky, regardless of copyright.
Copyright law is messy. Thank you for the elaboration.
yes to both regardless of this lawsuit
The wiggle room for large businesses is that they remove content that violates local laws when notified of it
Long story short: They are not combatting bots on their platform. They sold training data to google and these guys aren’t paying, that’s why they’re suing.
Obviously Reddit isn’t averse to bots scraping the site for data, just ones that aren’t paying them. I’m regretting not going through and systematically deleting all my posts and comments before deleting my account, but I thought that happened automatically.
I deleted all my posts and my account and they restored them all and then permanently banned me. They can recover anything they want to.
Basically nowhere on the internet does delete mean delete. Nearly everywhere it means archive or hide.
Do you really believe they don’t have backups? Especially since it seems selling content for AI training was their plan for quite a while?
Or that they didn’t make full backups a couple years ago before the protest, anticipating a lot of users would try to delete their comments?
I think the only way to truly delete anything from reddit would be living in EU and enforcing a GDPR request, but even in that case, I believe it would be very difficult to check they actually comply.
Wouldn’t work. GDPR is not copyright. Deleting the username is enough, unless you have doxed yourself in some post.
Rather, it can be argued that GDPR requires restoring comments at least in some situations. Comments may be necessary context to understand replies or even other posts.
it wouldnt have mattered anyway if you left during the time most people did. Reddit rolled back mass deleted data and manually deleted accounts during that duration so that comments remained without usernames.
The fuckers!
I don’t regret not deleting all my comments. For me, It’s a mishmash of helpful/comedic/observational comments that I don’t care that they have sold off for use as training data.
But, I just got shadowbanned, because of my VPN or something, so they aren’t getting any more!
So Reddit serves free data but Anthropic took too much?
They give out free license for their data, but require following their terms of service.
Only 100,000 times? Shit, do I need to be worried about getting sued too?
All porn subreddits are exempted
.
Jokes on you for crawling mostly synthetic text?