jet@hackertalks.com
on 11 Sep 2023 03:46
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“Al Jazeera Arabic presenter Tamer Almisshal has had his Facebook profile deleted by Meta 24 hours after the programme Tip of the Iceberg aired an investigation into Meta’s censorship of Palestinian content titled The Locked Space.
The programme’s investigation, which aired on Friday, included admissions by Eric Barbing, former head of Israel’s cybersecurity apparatus, about his organisation’s effort to track Palestinian content according to criteria that included “liking” a photo of a Palestinian killed by Israeli forces.”
Deplatforming journalists, or anyone, is a terrible thing to do.
Jessvj93@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 05:15
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The jokes people made on Twitter saying “I’m probably gonna be put on a list for retweeting this/liking this” was actual reality on FB?!
jet@hackertalks.com
on 11 Sep 2023 05:17
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It’s reality on Twitter too. Their are whole industries tracking people and their ideologies and tying that to their identities. You just haven’t pissed off the right group yet so you haven’t found out which list you’re on
Saudi authorities illegally requesting data from Twitter / flipping twitter employees to figure out who is posting opposing views. Some of which lead to arrests, torture, imprisonment, and death sentences.
Jessvj93@lemmy.world
on 14 Sep 2023 00:52
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Jared Kushner gave the Saudi’s top secret intelligence information on SA dissidents in exchange for 2 billion…and then MBS had them all trapped in his Hotel to be interrogated, tortured, and likely killed. And now Trumps not even in power anymore and Elon gave them essentially the same thing Jared did. He should have stuck to ripping people off on PayPal, gd it.
downpunxx@kbin.social
on 11 Sep 2023 04:07
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jet@hackertalks.com
on 11 Sep 2023 05:08
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The problem with deplatforming people is eventually your group is going to be the out group, and it’s going to get deplatformed. Either we have freedom of expression for everybody or for nobody.
It’s perfectly fine to deplatform selectively anyone who is trying to threaten, intimidate, harass others. You don’t automatically get freedom of speech if you don’t follow society’s rules of coexistence between groups.
Lemmy and distributed systems like it are designed to prevent any one group to get deplatformed.
If a group of people are breaking laws, judges should sanction them. It shouldn’t be up to corporations to remove their voice. If any one group can remove the voice of another group, no matter how righteously, without legal due process then we are just having a popularity contest.
As long as nothing illegal was written there, in my opinion, yes. But something against echo chambers should be done, I agree. But again, with banning them you encourage more echo chambers since there is no one thinking different than them in does dark not regulated chambers where they will flee to and find each other again.
Hope that makes sense for you, generally problems don’t disappear by hiding symptoms, they just get out of sight anf come back worse than they where.
I think, a better choice would be to invest in more (and better) education instead of ways to censor people.
It was ok when neonazis had no wide-ranging platform to organise in and were marginalized so they didn’t have a way to consolidate into a community that makes them feel supported enough to do anything stupid because they were so fragmented. It was a good way to keep them under control without harsher measures.
al jazeera is a wholy qatari owned propoganda mouthpiece for ismalic jihadis
… yea lol what?
Al Jazeera is Qatari, and so I don’t go to them for content about Qatar in case there’s a bias. However it’s a pretty large organization and they do decent investigative work on stuff happening in South America, Africa, & Asia. New organizations pick topics they think the readers want to see, and so in Canada (and likely the US) there’s usually little to no coverage on stuff in these parts of the world. Al Jazeera puts out decent investigative pieces and documentaries about these places.
TLDR: Al Jazeera isn’t unbiased, and I avoid them on certain topics. However I DO go to them for other stuff. It’s definitely not a “mouthpiece for ismalic jihadis [sic]”
What happened in this article is a bad thing:
had his Facebook profile deleted by Meta 24 hours after the programme Tip of the Iceberg aired an investigation into Meta’s censorship of Palestinian content
Gazumi@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 05:16
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Meta are acting as an international agency curtailing journal8sm as it suits them. Using Meta “logic”, they’d need to do the same for the Ukranian reporters, which we also would never condone.
andrewrgross@slrpnk.net
on 11 Sep 2023 05:25
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Oof. I just want to say as a Jew that is constantly trying to dispel the myth of Jewish media conspiracies, Zuck really isn’t doing us any favors here.
He’s and asshole regardless of his lineage, not because of it. Just so you know someone else out here has a little grounding in reality.
andrewrgross@slrpnk.net
on 11 Sep 2023 06:03
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Thanks, though unfortunately it’s not people like yourself (who understand such things) that worry me.
mishimaenjoyer@kbin.social
on 11 Sep 2023 09:22
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i still wait for the day when i can criticize the state of israel and some of it's policies without getting branded as an antisemite.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 09:48
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And those of us Jews who don’t support the state of Israel can’t wait for the day we stop getting tied to it just because we’re Jews. So there’s problems both ways.
DoomBot5@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 19:55
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I’m also waiting on the day where Israel isn’t marked for extermination by multiple countries/terrorist organizations.
RadicalCandour@startrek.website
on 12 Sep 2023 00:10
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You can. I do. As a Jew and as someone who has family living in Jerusalem who all hate Bibi and what he stands for. Fuck Bibi and fuck the Knesset. And fuck Zuck too.
mishimaenjoyer@kbin.social
on 12 Sep 2023 05:15
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Im Austrian, so im basically forbidden to speak such heresies.
andrewrgross@slrpnk.net
on 12 Sep 2023 03:52
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If you’re talking about Lemmy users, I think that day is already here. If you’re talking about far right Zionists and ultraorthodox Jewish supremacists, then never. Between these two ends is where you find the mainstream gatekeepers of information like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerburg, the Sulzburger family (who own the NYTimes), Jeffrey Bezos (who owns the Washington Post), etc.
I think the democratization of information is probably the most important step towards creating space to speak openly about human rights abuses anywhere, regardless of how powerful the people responsible are.
Cyberwitch_7493@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 11 Sep 2023 06:17
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And not all Jewish people support Israel! I have to assume many understand what’s going on and side with Palestine.
aidan@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 11:05
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What does “side with Palestine” mean? I side with the innocent people unjustly targeted in both Israel and Palestine, Israel has tolerated completely unjust treatment of Palestinians as well as done it as a state. But, groups like HAMAS also fire missiles at innocent civilians. Not to mention the many nations that have tried to unprovoked invade Israel. I’m not saying the Israeli government is innocent, it’s not, but it’s more complicated than just “siding with Palestine” being the right answer.
jarfil@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 12:15
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the many nations that have tried to unprovoked invade Israel
If we go far back in the history of the land… that list goes all the way to the paleolithic, and includes Israel itself. Some call it the “promised land”, “holy land”, and stuff like that, but in practice it looks more like the “cursed land”.
DoomBot5@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 14:28
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If we go less far back, you’ll find the point where the Roman’s conquered the lands, kicked out all the Jews and renamed it to Palestina to spite them.
If we go back, Israelites were going around offering cities to either join them or be exterminated… if we go forward, Crusaders gave no option to anyone… and so on.
It’s a really bad patch of land, now with too many large religions trying to claim it, some even hoping for the Apocalypse to start there ASAP. Then you add the water shortages, and global warming is only going to make those worse.
The state of tribalism where when someone points out something isn’t simplistic clear “good vs evil” all the time they are suddenly “Enlightened centrism”
The defence of the indefensible when someone tries to say both sides are to blame when only one side is engaged in state sanctioned crimes and the other lives in a ghetto surrounded by the others soldiers who routinely drive into the ghetto and kill them.
A state actor can be wrong and a terrorist group can be wrong??? There are more than 2 sides in life. Stop with the tankie logic where they support ISIS because it opposes the US.
Cyberwitch_7493@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Sep 2023 12:49
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Yeah I agree, I side with the innocent people, not necessarily all the semi-state entities in Palestine.
I can’t blame them for wanting to fight back.
With attacking innocent civilians I can.
Cyberwitch_7493@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 13 Sep 2023 07:20
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Hamas is less “attacking innocent civilians” and more doesn’t know where civilians will be since they are a poor and oppressed retaliation force. And the Iron Dome is pretty much impenetrable because Israel shoots anything down in their airspace.
lolcatnip@reddthat.com
on 11 Sep 2023 13:56
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I’ve been to Jewish gatherings where they had duplicates of some food products because half of them insisted on eating an Israeli brand and half of them refused to.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
on 12 Sep 2023 02:57
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And not all the people that support Israel are Jewish nor are being paid by Jews to do so. Many understand that Hamas is a fascist regime and simply don’t like fascism.
andrewrgross@slrpnk.net
on 12 Sep 2023 03:47
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Yes, I’m one of them. But again, that’s not the audience I’m worried about. I’m not worried about what the mainstream thinks of Jews, or Jews think of Jews, I am worried about the feedback loop between far right influencers who promote conspiracy theories and the disaffected media consumers that they radicalize into violence. This kind of behavior is fuel for a very dangerous cycle.
Cyberwitch_7493@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Sep 2023 12:37
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I don’t disagree with this. Far right radicalization is a huge problem.
tryptaminev@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 11:01
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Well, not so much a conspiracy, but Israel is employing social media propaganda, similiar to the infamous russian “troll factories”. It was often very well noticeable on reddit, as sometimes two different accounts posted the exact same comment with pro Israeli talking points. Their main target is facebook and other large plattforms though.
I often saw this parroted on Reddit, though without sources. What I didn’t see, is what you described as “very well noticeable” - and I used Reddit a lot.
Anytime I look up this stuff I can only find relevant information from obscure websites which don’t list any sources. This honestly does seem like a conspiracy.
tryptaminev@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 13:13
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First and third links clearly state that these students are volunteers, and also a fairly small amount of them. (Also doesn’t seem like trolling necessarily)
Second link seems promising, but it offers almost no details, and its source is HaAretz, an Israeli publication which I personally don’t trust (also the source article is behind a paywall).
Last link is about a private company and seems only slightly related.
Not really strong evidence of Israel running “Russian troll factories”.
tryptaminev@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 15:06
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Does it matter, whether the people are volunteers, paid or coerced? The fact stands that Israel is making a concerted effort to influence social media in their favor.
I find it a bit silly, that you want proper sources and then just say you don’t trust a major Israeli newspaper without further explanation. Especially since the BBC deemed it credible as a source.
For the last link how is it “only slightly related?” It is a private company that is operating from Israel, run by ex-intelligence people, influencing elections world wide. This kind of things are not sold with a google add, but instead require extensive networks and contacts. It is implausible, that the company operated without the knowledge and approval of the Israeli government. Also the article states that the company was promoted on the website of the Israeli ministry of defense. Finally Israeli intelligence has proven competent in many activities around the globe, but in particular in regards to digital activities (stuxnet). There is no reason to belief that they wouldn’t have picked up on one of their former employees running these kind of activities.
I doubt that Israel makes no effort to influence social media.
I just think the effort made isn’t very big, and with the presented evidence this seems true. I don’t feel like looking through them again to pinpoint where exactly but some of the articles you shared flat out admit Israel isn’t very good at shaping public opinion.
stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 04:09
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The original comment in this subthread claimed Israel was running troll factories similar to Russia’s, and on a scale large enough for it to be noticeable on Reddit, while also claiming Reddit isn’t even the main focus of those trolls.
Point 1 basically goes to show that while Israel does attempt some social media influence, it appears to be at a far smaller scale then originally claimed.
In all honesty, I’d be surprised if there are many developed countries which don’t do this to some extent, so in my eyes singling out Israel in this case seems a bit weird.
stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 14:24
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Okay, I can see why that correction would maybe argue specifics against being 1:1 with Russian troll factories but even you just said the magic word: “similar to” which is obviously pretty loose, hence my distaste for the pedantics.
Overall, I agree though - most countries should be doing this just to counteract other countries doing this until we can start calling out ourselves for doing these things
As a guy wholly descended from the peoples of the British Isles, I have a similar feeling, only in my case, it really is true that my people have trashed the world for their personal benefit.
Granted that the Irish side of my family was never entirely on board.
IHaveTwoCows@lemm.ee
on 12 Sep 2023 17:53
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wait wait wait are you saying that zuckerberg is jewish
oh noes
Sauvandu59@lemmy.my.id
on 11 Sep 2023 06:43
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This is the reason why Gab is better than Facebook.
ahriboy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Sep 2023 07:37
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Gab is cancer. Better stay away from bigotry-ridden websites.
Sauvandu59@lemmy.my.id
on 12 Sep 2023 08:02
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Gab wouldn’t deletes Al jazeera presenter’s profile after showing criticising israel like Facebook did.
And that’s why we regulate our capitalism… Free market does not work, well it does, but only for the rich 🤑
abbotsbury@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 10:53
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I mean, yeah, and people can express dislike for their policy
tryptaminev@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 11:04
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Helping war criminals cover up their crimes is illegal under most countries jurisdictions.
Akasazh@feddit.nl
on 11 Sep 2023 11:45
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It can, but that doesnt mean ít’s excused from criticism if it does something incredibly stupid and amoral.
FMT99@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 12:22
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Maybe people are finally starting to realize (although way too late) that handing over our “public” fora to private companies was a bad idea.
BubblyMango@lemmy.wtf
on 11 Sep 2023 12:49
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This is true, and the reason people need to stop using social media as their source for news.
When a company has sophisticated algorithms ment to only show you things that will get you engaged - you are not getting unbiased news. Add Meta’s personal agendas on top of that and you get the shitshow that is facebook as a news source.
I’m going to write something bad about you that can legally be disputed, refuted, or might not be verifiable right away. Please host me & that content at your expense. Thank you bye!
-Sincerely Biggest Brained Boy
lolcatnip@reddthat.com
on 11 Sep 2023 13:52
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I forgot no action can be criticized unless it’s literally illegal. Silly me.
MataVatnik@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 09:34
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Equating Israel to Judaism is such a stupid fucking idea.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 10:41
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I’m really, really tired of immediately denouncing Israel half the time people find out I’m Jewish. I’m not a fucking Israeli.
tryptaminev@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 10:59
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The Israeli government is really happy to rope you and all other Jewish people outside of Israel along though. And too many unfortunately play that role happily.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 11:03
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And too many unfortunately play that role happily.
See? This is what I mean. If I just announced that I was Jewish to someone like you, you’d make me justify it by denouncing Israel. I shouldn’t have to do that. It should not be assumed that just because I’m a Jew, I support Israel. Frankly, that’s a form of racism.
qevlarr@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 11:15
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They’re saying you should blame Israel for that, not random people trying to find out who’s who
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 11:18
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Why not blame both? Why should they be trying to find out who’s who. If you found out someone was Turkish, would you immediately ask them if they supported Erdogan? If someone was Hungarian, would you try to find out if they supported Orban?
I don’t know if you’re an American, but how would you like it if, every time you met a non-American, you would have to announce that you don’t support Trump because they’re trying to “find out who’s who?”
jarfil@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 11:50
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Isn’t that how it works anyway?
Person A: “I am a [whatever]”
Person B: “What do you think of [some thing about “whatever” I’ve recently seen on TV, and is possibly the only thing I know about it]?”
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 12:40
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Yeah, except in the case of Jews, it’s “prove you’re not a Zionist.” So many times in my life. So many times. I have to prove I’m not a bad person because of something I can’t control and was born as.
FatCrab@lemmy.one
on 11 Sep 2023 13:31
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This might be very idiosyncratic to how you engage with people or with whom. I’ve lived in the deep Midwest and in an east coast major city. My name is EXTREMELY jewish. I have literally never had to explain my position on Israel or zionism when introducing myself. If Israel comes up in conversation in one way or another? Sure, people have asked what my opinion is, as a Jewish person, on Israel or such and such events, but that’s pretty reasonable and I don’t think ever frontloaded with anything.
jarfil@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 17:58
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What can I tell you, other than to avoid the kind of people who take something about you, and turn it into an attack. Also don’t bring up the topic yourself unless you want to defend it, and —however hard it is— try to “not attribute to malice, that which is simple ignorance”.
There are also some rhetoric tricks you can use to return an attack, but you risk being perceived as a troublemaker.
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 11 Sep 2023 22:39
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Yea, that’s on the asswipe saying that. We get to meet them everywhere.
AdlachGyfiawn@lemmygrad.ml
on 11 Sep 2023 13:01
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As an American, Trump is the first thing many of my European friends talk about
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:03
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Yes, but do you have to justify yourself with half the Europeans you meet that you’re not one of the Trump supporters?
AFaithfulNihilist@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:12
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Yes. Europeans tend to think Americans get the government we vote for and that we must like Trump since he was the president and isn’t going away. It’s ignorant, but I understand that they have this notion and I will, out of compassion and tolerance, explain that I am not a deranged bootlicking reactionary and do not support forever war, Christian nationalism or corporate hegemony.
jj4211@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:32
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During his presidency, yes. On a related note, when I would speak to someone in the UK during Boris Johnson, he would be careful to inject a bit of “Boris Johnson sucks, Brexit was dumb” to make his stance clear.
Related, they sometimes assume I not only own a gun, but I’m armed at all times like some old west cowboy, depending on how little they deal with Americans day to day.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:32
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Oh, so not for your entire life. Seems like it’s a little different then.
jj4211@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:59
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Well, of course I didn’t have to clarify I wasn’t a supporter of President Trump while he wasn’t President…
I pretty much have to be prepared for assumptions about any dubious American move in the global stage, and America makes a lot of dubious moves.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 14:00
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Right, but my point is that there never has been a time in my life where someone hasn’t equated Jew and Israeli. I’ve had to defend myself against that since I was a teenager and that was the 1990s. And if people blame all Americans for the crimes of what is actually a minority of those Americans, then they shouldn’t do that either.
If you want something to justify yourself about for life, I have one:
“America is a continent with plenty of different countries, why do you people from the USA call yourselves ‘American’ like you owned the whole continent?”
PRUSSIA_x86@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 21:40
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The use of “American” to designate residents of the United States dates back to a time when there were no other countries on the continent. If you lived on the American continent in the 1700s, you were either Indian, or an English, French, or Spanish colonist (or a slave). In the 1770s, 13 of these colonies rebelled and formed their own union. It wasn’t really a country though, since each had its own money, laws, and government. To differentiate them from colonial citizens, Europeans called them Americans. Most Americans thought of themselves as citizens of their state (Virginians, New Yorkers, etc.), and in fact it wasn’t until after the Civil War that they began referring to the United States as a singular entity, rather than a plural.
Your description of America as a single continent with “plenty of different countries” betrays a very Afro-Eurasia-centric view of the western hemisphere. Unless you can point out Wisonson on a map, or tell me what the Federal Republic of Central America was, maybe keep your eastern hemisphere judgements to yourself.
jarfil@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 22:05
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And therefore, lies my point: you will find a lot of people whom you’ll have to copy&paste that justification for. For life. 😉
Bonus: also beware of referring to the USA as “the United States”, less you bring forth the wrath of someone from the “Mexican United States”.
PRUSSIA_x86@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 22:57
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Touché
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 12 Sep 2023 14:36
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I’ve worked with folks from around the world (including Central and South Americans), some can be touchy about it.
Had to tell them “sorry, I, as an American, don’t define these terms. Blame Europeans, not me”.
“US”, “America”, “Americans” all have specific denotations… per EMEA, and hell, even Canadians.
It’s like nicknames - if you have one, you didn’t choose it. It was earned or applied by someone else.
Yeah… I learned Spanish in Mexico as a wee lad, the folk living North of there were called “Gringos” or “Yankees”. Back in Europe, behind the iron curtain, it was “Americaniard” or “Yank”, rarely “American”… even when people meant no disrespect.
Then in Spain… (@PRUSSIA_x86@lemmy.world, you may want to see this)… “American” refers to any citizen of the whole continent… even the official dictionary itself, in it’s latest update, actually states:
debe evitarse el empleo de americano para referirse exclusivamente a los habitantes de los Estados Unidos, uso abusivo que se explica por el hecho de que los estadounidenses utilizan a menudo el nombre abreviado América (en inglés, sin tilde) para referirse a su país. No debe olvidarse que América es el nombre de todo el continente y son americanos todos los que lo habitan.
The use of American to refer exclusively to the inhabitants of the United States should be avoided, an abusive use that is explained by the fact that Americans often use the abbreviated name America (in English, without accent) to refer to their country. It should not be forgotten that America is the name of the entire continent and all those who inhabit it are Americans.
So yeah, kind of like nicknames… but then some places have different rules about the nicknames. 😉
(…and then there are the actually vulgar despective nicknames, which I won’t get into here)
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 15 Sep 2023 03:09
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Oh that’s cool to hear about. Neat!
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 11 Sep 2023 22:37
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That description of American Colonists is exactly why there was a rebellion.
The English treated the colonists like second-class citizens, going so far as to try to get Ben Franklin to answer for things like the Tea Party, while he was in England, and a Loyalist.
The simplistic “rebelled over taxation” is just a representation of how the Crown and European Brits viewed and treated the colonists.
Colonists didn’t quit Britain, the Briton’s quit on the Colonists.
Buddahriffic@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 15:45
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There weren’t many Indians on the American continent in the 1700s. They were busy getting oppressed by other British colonists back in India at that time.
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 11 Sep 2023 22:34
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Got any more goalposts you’d like to move?
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 22:39
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How did I move the goalposts? I said from the beginning that it’s happened my whole life. If anything, the guy who talked about a few years of inconvenience is the one who moved the goalposts.
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 12 Sep 2023 14:52
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If you can’t see how you moved them, I can’t help you.
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 11 Sep 2023 22:33
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Half? No.
Closer to 98%.
Europeans are just as jingoistic as anyone else. And just as ignorant.
eltimablo@kbin.social
on 11 Sep 2023 15:18
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how would you like it if, every time you met a non-American, you would have to announce that you don’t support Trump because they’re trying to “find out who’s who?”
This is already the case.
tryptaminev@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 11:16
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I dont mean you personally, but organizations that claim to represent the jewish people in various countries. For instance the American Jewish Committee that claims Jews critisizing Israel would be antisemites and tries to have the UN comittees dissolved that adress the human rights situation in Palestine. Or a bit larger but slightly more moderate the World Jewish Congress, that wants “to enhance solidarity among Jewish communities throughout the world and, recognizing the centrality of the State of Israel to contemporary Jewish identity, to strengthen the bonds of Jewish communities and Jews in the Diaspora with Israel”
These organizations claim to represent Jewish people around the world and that they would be in favor of Israel and support Israel, especially in face of criticism.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 11:19
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Sure, and white supremacists claim to represent all white people. They don’t and no one should assume that just because you’re white, you’re a white supremacist.
tryptaminev@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 12:31
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Which i never did. You cannot deny the reality, that many Jewish people and organizations want to tie all Jewish people to Israel. It is the predominant view in the larger organizations, that are often recognized as spokespeople for the Jewish community in the respective country, continent or world.
I also find it wrong, that Israel is claiming to be representative of the Jewish people as a whole and having a lot of organized support for it. The voices to the contrary need to organize and make themselves heard.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 12:41
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And because of that, it’s justified for people to constantly expect me to prove I have no allegiance to Israel? Bullshit. I should not have to prove I don’t support apartheid just because I’m Jewish.
Bro everyone has been repeating this over and over:
No! It’s Israel’s fault.
Why are YOU blaming others for what Israel is doing to Jewish identity?
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:28
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So non-Jews are not at fault at all for being bigoted? It’s all the fault of Israeli Jews? There’s no bigotry involved at all? That’s what you’re saying?
Man you can ask ANYONE if they support the CCP. You can ask ANYONE if they support the Israeli apartheid state.
But it’s more relevant to ask people that are more likely to do so.
If many (most even) American Jews or Israeli-Americans support Bibi and the apartheid state, what the fuck are we supposed to do? Why is it bigotry to ask a question?
I’m an immigrant, to Europe, and I’ve been asked many times if I supported the fascist fucker who was our president for a while. Because A LOT of the immigrants from my country around that time did. It’s a fucking relevant question.
If you’re not a fascist, you don’t want to keep talking with one.
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 11 Sep 2023 22:41
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Did you just finish Sophistry 101? Cause that’s all we’re hearing out of you.
I mean you’ve climbed up on the cross, and it looks like you’re even putting the nails in yourself.
Did you miss the other commentors explaining why that’s the case? I personally don’t do that, but I can understand why others do. As usual, blame the politicians
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:29
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No, I did not miss all the other commenters blaming Jews for antisemitism.
wahming@monyet.cc
on 11 Sep 2023 13:32
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How is that even anti semitic? They’re pointing out an action that major Jewish organisations are undeniably doing. You don’t get to play the antisemitic card for honest criticism. That’s exactly the sort of BS Israel is pulling that makes everybody annoyed at them.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:34
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It’s antisemitic because I have to justify myself as a Jew because people like them know this organization exists. As I have said multiple times- I have to justify that I am not a bad person because of my ancestry. Regularly. And you’re saying that non-Jews bear no fault there. Fucking bullshit.
wahming@monyet.cc
on 11 Sep 2023 13:40
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Antisemitism is hatred of Jews. People assuming that you’re connected with Israel is not antisemitism, you’re just diluting the word.
Do you realise that your response is exactly what the groups are hoping for when they’re sowing their ‘Jews = Israel’ propaganda? They’re defining your identity to the world, and by getting upset at the world for accepting that propaganda, you’ve allowed the organisations to drive a wedge between you and non-Jews. As a Chinese, I experience something similar with China. I can understand your feelings of annoyance. But you’ve got to understand that you’re falling for the plans of the politicians when you respond in the way you are now.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:47
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I disagree that antisemitism is hatred. Antisemitism is the othering of Jews. People who say things like Jews are all rich are being antisemitic. Because it’s a lie and a bigoted one. People who say anything about Jews as a universal truth are being antisemitic because there are no universal commonalities amongst Jews. But people don’t care about that. They don’t even care if you’re an observant Jew. I’ve had people, completely innocently, ask me why Jews are in charge of Hollywood. They don’t mean it in a hateful way. It’s still antisemitic.
If someone asks a black person why black people are such good dancers, they aren’t being hateful, but they are being racist.
So I may be falling for politicians, but I do not agree with your definition of antisemitism.
Fair enough, I agree with you on the antisemitism point. You probably still want to take a long moment to think about the root cause of why this is happening and what they hope to gain from it.
gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:42
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Do you think it would be offensive for someone to ask a German if they support Hitler in 1943?
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:43
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Do people ask Germans born in the 70s like I was that?
gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:49
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No, because there wasn’t a genocide happening in Germany then like there is in Palestine today. That’s why I asked in 1943.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:50
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But you said Germans. That is part of my point. Jews are not Israelis. And you are equating Jews with being the same as a nation. This is exactly why I am forced to justify that I am not a bad person just because I’m a Jew.
gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 13:59
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There doesn’t need to be an equivalency between nationality and religion, it’s simple demographics. When you make your country an ethno-religous state the lines between both get blurred and that’s what Israel wants.
Would you agree more Germans than non-Germans supported the Holocaust outside of Germany? Would you agree more Jewish people than non-Jewish people support Zionism outside of Israel?
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 14:01
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Irrelevant. I should not have to defend myself just because I’m Jewish. I’m not an Israeli. I was not born an Israeli and I have never lived in Israel.
And if someone asked an American whose ancestors came from Germany 2000 years ago whether or not they supported the Holocaust, that would also be wrong.
I mean, my ancestors were in Germany in the 1940s. They didn’t make it past the 1940s, but they were there.
CatWhoMustNotBeNamed@geddit.social
on 11 Sep 2023 22:42
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DoomBot5@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 14:30
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Al Jazeera, especially the Arabic version, are well known to constantly spew lies about Israel.
SulaymanF@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 16:47
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Did they get anything wrong in this news segment or are you making an ad hominem attack?
stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 04:05
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🔔 🔔 🔔
circuscritic@lemmy.ca
on 11 Sep 2023 19:38
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I mean, it is literally Qatari state media, but I don’t think that’s really relevant to this specific issue.
However, this sounds more, or equally, about the journalist being removed for his coverage of Meta and their shady relationships with governments, specifically Israel in this instance.
Absolutemehperson@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 17:18
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Can people actually criticise Israel and get away with it? Hasn’t been the case for the past decade or even more. This is hardly news.
Instigate@aussie.zone
on 12 Sep 2023 03:53
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I’ve found that you definitely can outside of the US. Growing up in Australia I was always taught the ‘both sides’ argument regarding Israel/Palestine, and I’ve literally never met a person who didn’t support a two-state solution. A Jewish family I grew up with were notoriously anti-Israel, specifically because Israel has given them bad names by committing atrocities in response to other atrocities. You might find a few right wing nutjobs that refuse to allow criticism of Israel, but generally they’re the ones that are ostracised by the majority.
technicalogical@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 15:02
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Jewish families in America are anti-Israel too, but the US has the crazy Christians that need Israel for the second coming of Christ. So yeah, can’t be critical of Israel in America because an old folk lore might come true.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 15:07
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This is pretty much it. My Jewish friends, with one exception who worked for the DOD, all draw a line between the Israeli gov and the people. I also think a lot of the high level blind support is because Israel is essentially America’s “aircraft carrier” in the region and a valuable source of intelligence.
ricdeh@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 06:58
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Even so, Al Jazeera is a notoriously unreliable and manipulative news outlet directly controlled by the Qatari state and partially responsible for much of the current disarray that the Arabian peninsula and North Africa are experiencing since over a decade by now. They’re spewing out Qatari propaganda around the clock
SMITHandWESSON@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 14:44
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This saga won’t be over till Boomers are out political post on both sides. Boomer generation are known not to negotiate on any issue, even of it benefits them
IHaveTwoCows@lemm.ee
on 12 Sep 2023 17:51
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Where are all the radical right free speech absolutists running to his defense?
threaded - newest
“Al Jazeera Arabic presenter Tamer Almisshal has had his Facebook profile deleted by Meta 24 hours after the programme Tip of the Iceberg aired an investigation into Meta’s censorship of Palestinian content titled The Locked Space.
The programme’s investigation, which aired on Friday, included admissions by Eric Barbing, former head of Israel’s cybersecurity apparatus, about his organisation’s effort to track Palestinian content according to criteria that included “liking” a photo of a Palestinian killed by Israeli forces.”
Deplatforming journalists, or anyone, is a terrible thing to do.
The jokes people made on Twitter saying “I’m probably gonna be put on a list for retweeting this/liking this” was actual reality on FB?!
It’s reality on Twitter too. Their are whole industries tracking people and their ideologies and tying that to their identities. You just haven’t pissed off the right group yet so you haven’t found out which list you’re on
That is a current problem with Twitter as well:
theguardian.com/…/twitter-saudi-arabia-human-righ…
Saudi authorities illegally requesting data from Twitter / flipping twitter employees to figure out who is posting opposing views. Some of which lead to arrests, torture, imprisonment, and death sentences.
Jared Kushner gave the Saudi’s top secret intelligence information on SA dissidents in exchange for 2 billion…and then MBS had them all trapped in his Hotel to be interrogated, tortured, and likely killed. And now Trumps not even in power anymore and Elon gave them essentially the same thing Jared did. He should have stuck to ripping people off on PayPal, gd it.
good
Why is that good?
al jazeera is a wholy qatari owned propoganda mouthpiece for ismalic jihadis
While that is true, silencing journalists sets a very bad precedent
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The problem with deplatforming people is eventually your group is going to be the out group, and it’s going to get deplatformed. Either we have freedom of expression for everybody or for nobody.
It’s perfectly fine to deplatform selectively anyone who is trying to threaten, intimidate, harass others. You don’t automatically get freedom of speech if you don’t follow society’s rules of coexistence between groups.
Lemmy and distributed systems like it are designed to prevent any one group to get deplatformed.
If a group of people are breaking laws, judges should sanction them. It shouldn’t be up to corporations to remove their voice. If any one group can remove the voice of another group, no matter how righteously, without legal due process then we are just having a popularity contest.
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Let the arseholes bring their ideas into the light, so we know who they are and what they think.
Suppression is just a bad idea, and your naivete is terrifying.
If we deplatform whole communities, they will meet in the dark and we have no way to see who is a shady mf
So should reddit have left subreddit a like r/The_Donald up?
As long as nothing illegal was written there, in my opinion, yes. But something against echo chambers should be done, I agree. But again, with banning them you encourage more echo chambers since there is no one thinking different than them in does dark not regulated chambers where they will flee to and find each other again. Hope that makes sense for you, generally problems don’t disappear by hiding symptoms, they just get out of sight anf come back worse than they where. I think, a better choice would be to invest in more (and better) education instead of ways to censor people.
I agree completely, I was just wondering if you applied it to situations like that
It was ok when neonazis had no wide-ranging platform to organise in and were marginalized so they didn’t have a way to consolidate into a community that makes them feel supported enough to do anything stupid because they were so fragmented. It was a good way to keep them under control without harsher measures.
If that’s such a problem, why’d they wait until this particular piece to deplatform and even then only the presenter’s profile?
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… yea lol what?
Al Jazeera is Qatari, and so I don’t go to them for content about Qatar in case there’s a bias. However it’s a pretty large organization and they do decent investigative work on stuff happening in South America, Africa, & Asia. New organizations pick topics they think the readers want to see, and so in Canada (and likely the US) there’s usually little to no coverage on stuff in these parts of the world. Al Jazeera puts out decent investigative pieces and documentaries about these places.
TLDR: Al Jazeera isn’t unbiased, and I avoid them on certain topics. However I DO go to them for other stuff. It’s definitely not a “mouthpiece for ismalic jihadis [sic]”
What happened in this article is a bad thing:
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Meta are acting as an international agency curtailing journal8sm as it suits them. Using Meta “logic”, they’d need to do the same for the Ukranian reporters, which we also would never condone.
Oof. I just want to say as a Jew that is constantly trying to dispel the myth of Jewish media conspiracies, Zuck really isn’t doing us any favors here.
He’s and asshole regardless of his lineage, not because of it. Just so you know someone else out here has a little grounding in reality.
Thanks, though unfortunately it’s not people like yourself (who understand such things) that worry me.
i still wait for the day when i can criticize the state of israel and some of it's policies without getting branded as an antisemite.
And those of us Jews who don’t support the state of Israel can’t wait for the day we stop getting tied to it just because we’re Jews. So there’s problems both ways.
I’m also waiting on the day where Israel isn’t marked for extermination by multiple countries/terrorist organizations.
You can. I do. As a Jew and as someone who has family living in Jerusalem who all hate Bibi and what he stands for. Fuck Bibi and fuck the Knesset. And fuck Zuck too.
Im Austrian, so im basically forbidden to speak such heresies.
If you’re talking about Lemmy users, I think that day is already here. If you’re talking about far right Zionists and ultraorthodox Jewish supremacists, then never. Between these two ends is where you find the mainstream gatekeepers of information like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerburg, the Sulzburger family (who own the NYTimes), Jeffrey Bezos (who owns the Washington Post), etc.
I think the democratization of information is probably the most important step towards creating space to speak openly about human rights abuses anywhere, regardless of how powerful the people responsible are.
And not all Jewish people support Israel! I have to assume many understand what’s going on and side with Palestine.
What does “side with Palestine” mean? I side with the innocent people unjustly targeted in both Israel and Palestine, Israel has tolerated completely unjust treatment of Palestinians as well as done it as a state. But, groups like HAMAS also fire missiles at innocent civilians. Not to mention the many nations that have tried to unprovoked invade Israel. I’m not saying the Israeli government is innocent, it’s not, but it’s more complicated than just “siding with Palestine” being the right answer.
If we go far back in the history of the land… that list goes all the way to the paleolithic, and includes Israel itself. Some call it the “promised land”, “holy land”, and stuff like that, but in practice it looks more like the “cursed land”.
If we go less far back, you’ll find the point where the Roman’s conquered the lands, kicked out all the Jews and renamed it to Palestina to spite them.
“Syria Palaestina”, for extra spite.
If we go back, Israelites were going around offering cities to either join them or be exterminated… if we go forward, Crusaders gave no option to anyone… and so on.
It’s a really bad patch of land, now with too many large religions trying to claim it, some even hoping for the Apocalypse to start there ASAP. Then you add the water shortages, and global warming is only going to make those worse.
.
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The state of tribalism where when someone points out something isn’t simplistic clear “good vs evil” all the time they are suddenly “Enlightened centrism”
The defence of the indefensible when someone tries to say both sides are to blame when only one side is engaged in state sanctioned crimes and the other lives in a ghetto surrounded by the others soldiers who routinely drive into the ghetto and kill them.
A state actor can be wrong and a terrorist group can be wrong??? There are more than 2 sides in life. Stop with the tankie logic where they support ISIS because it opposes the US.
I just meant siding with the people being forced out of their homes by Israel and placed under heavy surveillance while under constant threat of attack. I can’t blame them for wanting to fight back.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
piped.video/watch?v=AHfUm0Eda80
piped.video/watch?v=TTPvFIV_KzA
piped.video/watch?v=rPJGUk-L4qQ
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Good bot!
Yeah I agree, I side with the innocent people, not necessarily all the semi-state entities in Palestine.
With attacking innocent civilians I can.
Hamas is less “attacking innocent civilians” and more doesn’t know where civilians will be since they are a poor and oppressed retaliation force. And the Iron Dome is pretty much impenetrable because Israel shoots anything down in their airspace.
There is a very important difference between aiming generally at the oppressive force which includes civilians who continue to replace Palestinians who’ve lived there for their whole lives and targeting civilians, children included. Palestine does the former, Israel does the latter.
Look, I don’t actually think I’m going to convince you of anything, but I hope it gives you pause at least.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
piped.video/watch?v=rPJGUk-L4qQ
piped.video/watch?v=kAm9-Cli6zs
piped.video/watch?v=WmdnLioi5r0
piped.video/watch?v=K8Xu_8Fw0l4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
I’ve been to Jewish gatherings where they had duplicates of some food products because half of them insisted on eating an Israeli brand and half of them refused to.
And not all the people that support Israel are Jewish nor are being paid by Jews to do so. Many understand that Hamas is a fascist regime and simply don’t like fascism.
Yes, I’m one of them. But again, that’s not the audience I’m worried about. I’m not worried about what the mainstream thinks of Jews, or Jews think of Jews, I am worried about the feedback loop between far right influencers who promote conspiracy theories and the disaffected media consumers that they radicalize into violence. This kind of behavior is fuel for a very dangerous cycle.
I don’t disagree with this. Far right radicalization is a huge problem.
Well, not so much a conspiracy, but Israel is employing social media propaganda, similiar to the infamous russian “troll factories”. It was often very well noticeable on reddit, as sometimes two different accounts posted the exact same comment with pro Israeli talking points. Their main target is facebook and other large plattforms though.
Any sources on any of that?
I often saw this parroted on Reddit, though without sources. What I didn’t see, is what you described as “very well noticeable” - and I used Reddit a lot.
Anytime I look up this stuff I can only find relevant information from obscure websites which don’t list any sources. This honestly does seem like a conspiracy.
Some 180 students from Israel and overseas studying at an academic institution in Herzliya, in central Israel, are working from morning to night to monitor and foil fake news and anti-Israel propaganda on social networks and to advance the country’s point of view amid the conflict with Hamas and other Gaza terror groups, the school said.
Students in Israel are to form government-funded “covert units” to defend the country on Facebook and Twitter, it’s reported.
Israel Making Positive Strides in Uphill Battle on the Information Front
team of Israeli contractors who claim to have manipulated more than 30 elections around the world using hacking, sabotage and automated disinformation on social media has been exposed in a new investigation.
First and third links clearly state that these students are volunteers, and also a fairly small amount of them. (Also doesn’t seem like trolling necessarily)
Second link seems promising, but it offers almost no details, and its source is HaAretz, an Israeli publication which I personally don’t trust (also the source article is behind a paywall).
Last link is about a private company and seems only slightly related.
Not really strong evidence of Israel running “Russian troll factories”.
Does it matter, whether the people are volunteers, paid or coerced? The fact stands that Israel is making a concerted effort to influence social media in their favor.
I find it a bit silly, that you want proper sources and then just say you don’t trust a major Israeli newspaper without further explanation. Especially since the BBC deemed it credible as a source.
For the last link how is it “only slightly related?” It is a private company that is operating from Israel, run by ex-intelligence people, influencing elections world wide. This kind of things are not sold with a google add, but instead require extensive networks and contacts. It is implausible, that the company operated without the knowledge and approval of the Israeli government. Also the article states that the company was promoted on the website of the Israeli ministry of defense. Finally Israeli intelligence has proven competent in many activities around the globe, but in particular in regards to digital activities (stuxnet). There is no reason to belief that they wouldn’t have picked up on one of their former employees running these kind of activities.
I doubt that Israel makes no effort to influence social media.
I just think the effort made isn’t very big, and with the presented evidence this seems true. I don’t feel like looking through them again to pinpoint where exactly but some of the articles you shared flat out admit Israel isn’t very good at shaping public opinion.
Point 1 is kinda pedantic wouldn’t you say?
No.
The original comment in this subthread claimed Israel was running troll factories similar to Russia’s, and on a scale large enough for it to be noticeable on Reddit, while also claiming Reddit isn’t even the main focus of those trolls.
Point 1 basically goes to show that while Israel does attempt some social media influence, it appears to be at a far smaller scale then originally claimed.
In all honesty, I’d be surprised if there are many developed countries which don’t do this to some extent, so in my eyes singling out Israel in this case seems a bit weird.
Okay, I can see why that correction would maybe argue specifics against being 1:1 with Russian troll factories but even you just said the magic word: “similar to” which is obviously pretty loose, hence my distaste for the pedantics.
Overall, I agree though - most countries should be doing this just to counteract other countries doing this until we can start calling out ourselves for doing these things
change yourself, change the world and that
At this point it’s a given that any nation state with an interest in PR has their online troll teams.
Assumptions assumptions
As a guy wholly descended from the peoples of the British Isles, I have a similar feeling, only in my case, it really is true that my people have trashed the world for their personal benefit.
Granted that the Irish side of my family was never entirely on board.
wait wait wait are you saying that zuckerberg is jewish
oh noes
This is the reason why Gab is better than Facebook.
Gab is cancer. Better stay away from bigotry-ridden websites.
Gab wouldn’t deletes Al jazeera presenter’s profile after showing criticising israel like Facebook did.
Meta is a private company and can do whatever it wants. Nothing to see here. Yea…go ahead down vote me
They probably can, but it’s still immoral and unethical.
Yea right! Thats how for profit companies work.
And that’s why we regulate our capitalism… Free market does not work, well it does, but only for the rich 🤑
I mean, yeah, and people can express dislike for their policy
Helping war criminals cover up their crimes is illegal under most countries jurisdictions.
It can, but that doesnt mean ít’s excused from criticism if it does something incredibly stupid and amoral.
Maybe people are finally starting to realize (although way too late) that handing over our “public” fora to private companies was a bad idea.
This is true, and the reason people need to stop using social media as their source for news.
When a company has sophisticated algorithms ment to only show you things that will get you engaged - you are not getting unbiased news. Add Meta’s personal agendas on top of that and you get the shitshow that is facebook as a news source.
Thank you and hope the idiots down voting me can use common sense.
I’m going to write something bad about you that can legally be disputed, refuted, or might not be verifiable right away. Please host me & that content at your expense. Thank you bye!
-Sincerely Biggest Brained Boy
I forgot no action can be criticized unless it’s literally illegal. Silly me.
Equating Israel to Judaism is such a stupid fucking idea.
I’m really, really tired of immediately denouncing Israel half the time people find out I’m Jewish. I’m not a fucking Israeli.
The Israeli government is really happy to rope you and all other Jewish people outside of Israel along though. And too many unfortunately play that role happily.
See? This is what I mean. If I just announced that I was Jewish to someone like you, you’d make me justify it by denouncing Israel. I shouldn’t have to do that. It should not be assumed that just because I’m a Jew, I support Israel. Frankly, that’s a form of racism.
They’re saying you should blame Israel for that, not random people trying to find out who’s who
Why not blame both? Why should they be trying to find out who’s who. If you found out someone was Turkish, would you immediately ask them if they supported Erdogan? If someone was Hungarian, would you try to find out if they supported Orban?
I don’t know if you’re an American, but how would you like it if, every time you met a non-American, you would have to announce that you don’t support Trump because they’re trying to “find out who’s who?”
Isn’t that how it works anyway?
Person A: “I am a [whatever]”
Person B: “What do you think of [some thing about “whatever” I’ve recently seen on TV, and is possibly the only thing I know about it]?”
Yeah, except in the case of Jews, it’s “prove you’re not a Zionist.” So many times in my life. So many times. I have to prove I’m not a bad person because of something I can’t control and was born as.
This might be very idiosyncratic to how you engage with people or with whom. I’ve lived in the deep Midwest and in an east coast major city. My name is EXTREMELY jewish. I have literally never had to explain my position on Israel or zionism when introducing myself. If Israel comes up in conversation in one way or another? Sure, people have asked what my opinion is, as a Jewish person, on Israel or such and such events, but that’s pretty reasonable and I don’t think ever frontloaded with anything.
What can I tell you, other than to avoid the kind of people who take something about you, and turn it into an attack. Also don’t bring up the topic yourself unless you want to defend it, and —however hard it is— try to “not attribute to malice, that which is simple ignorance”.
There are also some rhetoric tricks you can use to return an attack, but you risk being perceived as a troublemaker.
Yea, that’s on the asswipe saying that. We get to meet them everywhere.
As an American, Trump is the first thing many of my European friends talk about
Yes, but do you have to justify yourself with half the Europeans you meet that you’re not one of the Trump supporters?
Yes. Europeans tend to think Americans get the government we vote for and that we must like Trump since he was the president and isn’t going away. It’s ignorant, but I understand that they have this notion and I will, out of compassion and tolerance, explain that I am not a deranged bootlicking reactionary and do not support forever war, Christian nationalism or corporate hegemony.
During his presidency, yes. On a related note, when I would speak to someone in the UK during Boris Johnson, he would be careful to inject a bit of “Boris Johnson sucks, Brexit was dumb” to make his stance clear.
Related, they sometimes assume I not only own a gun, but I’m armed at all times like some old west cowboy, depending on how little they deal with Americans day to day.
Oh, so not for your entire life. Seems like it’s a little different then.
Well, of course I didn’t have to clarify I wasn’t a supporter of President Trump while he wasn’t President…
I pretty much have to be prepared for assumptions about any dubious American move in the global stage, and America makes a lot of dubious moves.
Right, but my point is that there never has been a time in my life where someone hasn’t equated Jew and Israeli. I’ve had to defend myself against that since I was a teenager and that was the 1990s. And if people blame all Americans for the crimes of what is actually a minority of those Americans, then they shouldn’t do that either.
If you want something to justify yourself about for life, I have one:
“America is a continent with plenty of different countries, why do you people from the USA call yourselves ‘American’ like you owned the whole continent?”
The use of “American” to designate residents of the United States dates back to a time when there were no other countries on the continent. If you lived on the American continent in the 1700s, you were either Indian, or an English, French, or Spanish colonist (or a slave). In the 1770s, 13 of these colonies rebelled and formed their own union. It wasn’t really a country though, since each had its own money, laws, and government. To differentiate them from colonial citizens, Europeans called them Americans. Most Americans thought of themselves as citizens of their state (Virginians, New Yorkers, etc.), and in fact it wasn’t until after the Civil War that they began referring to the United States as a singular entity, rather than a plural.
Your description of America as a single continent with “plenty of different countries” betrays a very Afro-Eurasia-centric view of the western hemisphere. Unless you can point out Wisonson on a map, or tell me what the Federal Republic of Central America was, maybe keep your eastern hemisphere judgements to yourself.
And therefore, lies my point: you will find a lot of people whom you’ll have to copy&paste that justification for. For life. 😉
Bonus: also beware of referring to the USA as “the United States”, less you bring forth the wrath of someone from the “Mexican United States”.
Touché
I’ve worked with folks from around the world (including Central and South Americans), some can be touchy about it. Had to tell them “sorry, I, as an American, don’t define these terms. Blame Europeans, not me”.
“US”, “America”, “Americans” all have specific denotations… per EMEA, and hell, even Canadians.
It’s like nicknames - if you have one, you didn’t choose it. It was earned or applied by someone else.
Yeah… I learned Spanish in Mexico as a wee lad, the folk living North of there were called “Gringos” or “Yankees”. Back in Europe, behind the iron curtain, it was “Americaniard” or “Yank”, rarely “American”… even when people meant no disrespect.
Then in Spain… (@PRUSSIA_x86@lemmy.world, you may want to see this)… “American” refers to any citizen of the whole continent… even the official dictionary itself, in it’s latest update, actually states:
www.rae.es/dpd/Estados Unidos
So yeah, kind of like nicknames… but then some places have different rules about the nicknames. 😉
(…and then there are the actually vulgar despective nicknames, which I won’t get into here)
Oh that’s cool to hear about. Neat!
That description of American Colonists is exactly why there was a rebellion.
The English treated the colonists like second-class citizens, going so far as to try to get Ben Franklin to answer for things like the Tea Party, while he was in England, and a Loyalist.
The simplistic “rebelled over taxation” is just a representation of how the Crown and European Brits viewed and treated the colonists.
Colonists didn’t quit Britain, the Briton’s quit on the Colonists.
There weren’t many Indians on the American continent in the 1700s. They were busy getting oppressed by other British colonists back in India at that time.
Got any more goalposts you’d like to move?
How did I move the goalposts? I said from the beginning that it’s happened my whole life. If anything, the guy who talked about a few years of inconvenience is the one who moved the goalposts.
If you can’t see how you moved them, I can’t help you.
Half? No.
Closer to 98%.
Europeans are just as jingoistic as anyone else. And just as ignorant.
This is already the case.
I dont mean you personally, but organizations that claim to represent the jewish people in various countries. For instance the American Jewish Committee that claims Jews critisizing Israel would be antisemites and tries to have the UN comittees dissolved that adress the human rights situation in Palestine. Or a bit larger but slightly more moderate the World Jewish Congress, that wants “to enhance solidarity among Jewish communities throughout the world and, recognizing the centrality of the State of Israel to contemporary Jewish identity, to strengthen the bonds of Jewish communities and Jews in the Diaspora with Israel”
These organizations claim to represent Jewish people around the world and that they would be in favor of Israel and support Israel, especially in face of criticism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jewish_Committee en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewish_Congress
Sure, and white supremacists claim to represent all white people. They don’t and no one should assume that just because you’re white, you’re a white supremacist.
Which i never did. You cannot deny the reality, that many Jewish people and organizations want to tie all Jewish people to Israel. It is the predominant view in the larger organizations, that are often recognized as spokespeople for the Jewish community in the respective country, continent or world.
I also find it wrong, that Israel is claiming to be representative of the Jewish people as a whole and having a lot of organized support for it. The voices to the contrary need to organize and make themselves heard.
And because of that, it’s justified for people to constantly expect me to prove I have no allegiance to Israel? Bullshit. I should not have to prove I don’t support apartheid just because I’m Jewish.
You shouldn’t HAVE to, in a perfect world. Unfortunately, the ones who are making it not a reality are the Jewish organizations
So it’s the Jews fault that all Jews have to justify to non-Jews that we’re not bad people? That’s what you’re really going with?
Bro everyone has been repeating this over and over:
No! It’s Israel’s fault.
Why are YOU blaming others for what Israel is doing to Jewish identity?
So non-Jews are not at fault at all for being bigoted? It’s all the fault of Israeli Jews? There’s no bigotry involved at all? That’s what you’re saying?
What? Why would think that’s what I said?
And if people ask a Jewish person “hey do you support Bibi and the apartheid state of Israel?” how is that bigotry? It’s not assuming anything.
It’s hopeful the person is not a fascist. Not accusatory or anything.
There are A LOT of Jews and Israelis that don’t support the apartheid state of Israel. We all know that.
I’d ask a white South African if they supported the apartheid state there, for fucking sure.
Is it or is it not bigotry to ask a Chinese-American if they support the CCP?
I don’t think it is.
It’s not bigotry to ask a French person if they support Macron. Or a Russian if they support Putin.
You’re doing exactly what I am saying. I didn’t say Chinese person, I said Chinese-AMERICAN.
You ask an Israeli about their support for Netenyahu. You don’t ask a Jew unless you know them.
Man you can ask ANYONE if they support the CCP. You can ask ANYONE if they support the Israeli apartheid state.
But it’s more relevant to ask people that are more likely to do so.
If many (most even) American Jews or Israeli-Americans support Bibi and the apartheid state, what the fuck are we supposed to do? Why is it bigotry to ask a question?
I’m an immigrant, to Europe, and I’ve been asked many times if I supported the fascist fucker who was our president for a while. Because A LOT of the immigrants from my country around that time did. It’s a fucking relevant question.
If you’re not a fascist, you don’t want to keep talking with one.
Did you just finish Sophistry 101? Cause that’s all we’re hearing out of you.
I mean you’ve climbed up on the cross, and it looks like you’re even putting the nails in yourself.
Save some wood for Jesus.
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Did you miss the other commentors explaining why that’s the case? I personally don’t do that, but I can understand why others do. As usual, blame the politicians
No, I did not miss all the other commenters blaming Jews for antisemitism.
How is that even anti semitic? They’re pointing out an action that major Jewish organisations are undeniably doing. You don’t get to play the antisemitic card for honest criticism. That’s exactly the sort of BS Israel is pulling that makes everybody annoyed at them.
It’s antisemitic because I have to justify myself as a Jew because people like them know this organization exists. As I have said multiple times- I have to justify that I am not a bad person because of my ancestry. Regularly. And you’re saying that non-Jews bear no fault there. Fucking bullshit.
Antisemitism is hatred of Jews. People assuming that you’re connected with Israel is not antisemitism, you’re just diluting the word.
Do you realise that your response is exactly what the groups are hoping for when they’re sowing their ‘Jews = Israel’ propaganda? They’re defining your identity to the world, and by getting upset at the world for accepting that propaganda, you’ve allowed the organisations to drive a wedge between you and non-Jews. As a Chinese, I experience something similar with China. I can understand your feelings of annoyance. But you’ve got to understand that you’re falling for the plans of the politicians when you respond in the way you are now.
I disagree that antisemitism is hatred. Antisemitism is the othering of Jews. People who say things like Jews are all rich are being antisemitic. Because it’s a lie and a bigoted one. People who say anything about Jews as a universal truth are being antisemitic because there are no universal commonalities amongst Jews. But people don’t care about that. They don’t even care if you’re an observant Jew. I’ve had people, completely innocently, ask me why Jews are in charge of Hollywood. They don’t mean it in a hateful way. It’s still antisemitic.
If someone asks a black person why black people are such good dancers, they aren’t being hateful, but they are being racist.
So I may be falling for politicians, but I do not agree with your definition of antisemitism.
Fair enough, I agree with you on the antisemitism point. You probably still want to take a long moment to think about the root cause of why this is happening and what they hope to gain from it.
Do you think it would be offensive for someone to ask a German if they support Hitler in 1943?
Do people ask Germans born in the 70s like I was that?
No, because there wasn’t a genocide happening in Germany then like there is in Palestine today. That’s why I asked in 1943.
But you said Germans. That is part of my point. Jews are not Israelis. And you are equating Jews with being the same as a nation. This is exactly why I am forced to justify that I am not a bad person just because I’m a Jew.
There doesn’t need to be an equivalency between nationality and religion, it’s simple demographics. When you make your country an ethno-religous state the lines between both get blurred and that’s what Israel wants.
Would you agree more Germans than non-Germans supported the Holocaust outside of Germany? Would you agree more Jewish people than non-Jewish people support Zionism outside of Israel?
Irrelevant. I should not have to defend myself just because I’m Jewish. I’m not an Israeli. I was not born an Israeli and I have never lived in Israel.
And if someone asked an American whose ancestors came from Germany 2000 years ago whether or not they supported the Holocaust, that would also be wrong.
I mean, my ancestors were in Germany in the 1940s. They didn’t make it past the 1940s, but they were there.
Yawn.
The Israeli government doesn’t even represent all Israelis, let alone all Jews. Does represent the vast majority unfortunately
The issue is that both antiseminites and Zionists do want Jewish to mean Israeli. Same with being Israeli doesn’t mean your Jewish or a Zionist
Nah, it a brilliant idea if you want to deflect criticism of Israel’s right-wing government. What’s stupid is believing it.
Oh, from that perspective is genius. But any moron that buys into it should be ridiculed
Same thing with equating abortions to baby murder. Great branding, horrible belief.
It’s kinda the same tactic Russia uses.
Al Jazeera, especially the Arabic version, are well known to constantly spew lies about Israel.
Did they get anything wrong in this news segment or are you making an ad hominem attack?
🔔 🔔 🔔
I mean, it is literally Qatari state media, but I don’t think that’s really relevant to this specific issue.
However, this sounds more, or equally, about the journalist being removed for his coverage of Meta and their shady relationships with governments, specifically Israel in this instance.
Can people actually criticise Israel and get away with it? Hasn’t been the case for the past decade or even more. This is hardly news.
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I’ve found that you definitely can outside of the US. Growing up in Australia I was always taught the ‘both sides’ argument regarding Israel/Palestine, and I’ve literally never met a person who didn’t support a two-state solution. A Jewish family I grew up with were notoriously anti-Israel, specifically because Israel has given them bad names by committing atrocities in response to other atrocities. You might find a few right wing nutjobs that refuse to allow criticism of Israel, but generally they’re the ones that are ostracised by the majority.
Jewish families in America are anti-Israel too, but the US has the crazy Christians that need Israel for the second coming of Christ. So yeah, can’t be critical of Israel in America because an old folk lore might come true.
This is pretty much it. My Jewish friends, with one exception who worked for the DOD, all draw a line between the Israeli gov and the people. I also think a lot of the high level blind support is because Israel is essentially America’s “aircraft carrier” in the region and a valuable source of intelligence.
Even so, Al Jazeera is a notoriously unreliable and manipulative news outlet directly controlled by the Qatari state and partially responsible for much of the current disarray that the Arabian peninsula and North Africa are experiencing since over a decade by now. They’re spewing out Qatari propaganda around the clock
This saga won’t be over till Boomers are out political post on both sides. Boomer generation are known not to negotiate on any issue, even of it benefits them
Where are all the radical right free speech absolutists running to his defense?