TikTok says it’s not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine — The company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion
(www.vice.com)
from L4s@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 15 Nov 2023 08:00
https://lemmy.world/post/8280905
from L4s@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 15 Nov 2023 08:00
https://lemmy.world/post/8280905
TikTok says it’s not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine — The company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion::In a blog post, the company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion.
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pikachualgorithmAlgorithm probably plays a sizeable part in that, but as an older gen Z fella I have become indifferent to both countries of this conflict. Both Israel and Palestine just race with each other who can check the most boxes in the Geneva Convention rules list. Just leave those 2 to sort this mess out for themselves, It’s not like we get a Holy Site bonus effect by owning Jerusalem.
Or just put a stop on this, but this is a naive thinking.
The difference is that for one side the “violations of the Geneva convention” are not being carried out by the duly elected government 🤔
Yeah. Like obviously no one thinks that what Hamas is doing is in any way right, but at the same time Palestine has been shrinking. Palestinians have been treated poorly for decades, and they have no recourse.
It’s hardly surprising that an organisation like Hamas would crop up. People are being erased and they want desperately to continue living.
I cannot truthfully say that I wouldn’t lash out in violence if my life was threatened.
Hmm haven’t heard of it, but I believe in your statement.
That’s pretty reductive on the Palestinian side no?
Considering more than half the populous wasn’t even born when Hamas took power.
To be fair to them, it’s not as though the Israel Palestine conflict is black and white. It is pretty well known to be one of the most complex conflicts in human history.
Just about any statement that isn’t very well researched and laboriously constructed is like 95% likely to be reductive to some and offensive to others.
I’m sure someone reads this post as reductive, and I am only tangentially referring to the conflict.
Edit: beyond this comment we see people continuing to try to distill a multigenerational war down to a paragraph. Brilliant. Y’all should start writing history books since y’all have such a firm grasp on it all!
No it’s perfectly simple: Hamas, Kahanites and the like are fascists and ruin it, on both sides, for everyone, with their warmongering.
The only real mistake you can make in this conflict is see it as “Muslims vs. Jews” or “Palestinians vs. Israelis”: It’s decent people all over against assclowns and even entertaining those two “vs.” there is playing right into their hands.
Side note: Did you know the victims of the Hamas attack were largely Smolanim? Hippie Kibbutz kind of people, travelling into Gaza doing good work, just like those next to the West Bank travel into it to help Palestinians with olive harvests to make it less likely they get shot at by Settlers. Netanjahu and his Kahanites couldn’t give less of a fuck about them, which you also see reflected in them ignoring their families, they’re like the #1 critics of the government right now.
The conflict itself is really not that complex. It’s yet another example of runaway apartheid. The complexity comes from the global power and military positioning considerations for the US and its western alies. But that’s not really related to the conflict itself, but rather to the bloodthirsty maw of imperialism
Antisemitic Zionist (yes, that’s a thing) Christians are a pretty big factor, too.
It’s really not. It’s a land grab by a colonist ethno-state that drummed up some bullshit about that land being their destiny when they really came from what is now known as Iraq (and honestly who cares where). They intentionally make the issue “complicated” by putting ethnicity at its center, making even valid criticisms of this colonization punishable as a hate crime. But in the end, it’s not confusing. It’s just a land-grab wrapped in an ethnic/religious skin sort of like a Trojan horse.
I think some citation is necessary for the assertion that the Jewish people were not historically from the Levant region, and have no ancestoral “claims” in Jerusalem and the surrounding territory. I would love to see some anthropology studies or papers on the bronze age Israelites being proto-Asyrian or Persian and not one of the Canaanite tribes.
I’d also like to point out that basically every war ever has been and will probably be a land grab, wrapped up in some rationalized or causative skin. That stretch of land in particular has been conquered over and over again throughout human history, and the inhabitants forcibly immigrated and emigrated during many of these changes of power. Mesopotamia has been birthing empires since humans discovered it and it became a cradle of human civilization.
By your logic, they should share the land. That would also be an acceptable solution as well. Probably better, actually.
How do you feel about that? I’d love it if they could coexist peacefully, wouldn’t you?
I sure would, and that is what I’d argue for. I’d love it if both sides would agree to revert to the '67 borders, or even draw up and negotiate new borders if that is required at this point. Both sides have equal “claim” to the area, and this is a needless pseudo-civil war. Without the US and Israel’s surrounding Arab neighbors pouring money and ideology into it, the original '48 plan may have settled into a workable 2 state solution, but who really knows.
I also know that I have no skin in the game on either side, and honestly my opinion doesn’t matter beyond the fact that the US is allies with Israel as a democracy in the middle east that they can leverage towards favorable geopolitical stability, and which I have little power to effect. I just wanted to ask about what appeared to be dishonest propaganda that tries to conflate Israel with foreign colonizers like England, Portugal, Spain, etc, and erase pretty solidly agreed upon paleo and anthropology. We shouldn’t whitewash in either direction.
I’m definitely guilty of reductionism and offending people with my views. I don’t hold tightly to them, overall. I don’t like the indiscriminate murder of the innocent, but I also think that comparing this recent exchange of pleasantries between Israel and Hamas to Nazi Germany is offensive in and of itself.
Of course, the rhetoric that both sides of this filthy conflict use serves to display the deep hatred that exists ay the core of it.
Ahh yes, that’s a good take, I forgot that the Gaza Strip area is extremely young compared to the average, but please educate me then. I wasn’t suggesting that the Palestinians deserve this for supporting or voting for Hamas, they have their justified reason.
As I recall Hamas has initiated massacres (and before, also installing military buildings in civil areas and probably some more). Just to not sound biased of course Israel had made its fair share of war crimes like bombing civilian areas where military buildings weren’t even present and bunch more probably.
Of course, it’s absolutely brutal observing this even more so that the Israeli minister didn’t give 2 shits to the Pope’s request (ironic), but what can we do? Can we really put a stop to this without escalating things further and risking creating a bigger conflict than it currently is?
+20% Monthly Piety and +20% County Conversion Speed
This are the bonus effects for owning it! Makes your dynasty so much more powerful if you then divert from your reign’s religion. But be prepared for an holy war against you if you do so.
(this is ck3 btw)
Wow.
Please educate me then. Narrowed down to this conflict only Israel killed HUGE amounts of civilians but Hamas militants initiated this entire conflict by creating massacres all over Israel.
Of course, I’m not stating that Israel or Palestine is doing the right thing, it’s just sad (and tiring) to see another war where BOTH sides don’t take civilian lives into consideration at all. What’s your disagreement for me being indifferent? I would be a pretty happy person if someone could put a stop on this entire conflict, but this probably won’t ever happen.
“Narrowed down to this conflict only”. There. Thats my explanation. Casting a century of genocide aside and focusing only on this conflict is silly.
Also, you’re operating under the assumption this is a war between Israel and Palestine, but Palestine is not a country Israel decided to be at war with. “Palestine” is what remains of the obstacle to Israel’s legitimacy. I
Your assumption is totally understandable but our debate would need way longer paragraphs since this massacre has numerous amounts of conflicts starting from the 40s.
Yes that’s correct, I was indeed under the assumption that Palestine exists as a country. Thank you for pointing this out.
There’s always someone in here to say that both sides are equal.
I think people’s issue is that you (the west) is funding one side of it.
I’m pretty isolationist too though. Pull the funding to both sides. Let them figure it out themselves (Israel will probably not exist in the end of this scenario).
Israel has Nukes. Desperate people with Nukes is not a situation we want to reach. It’s so much more complicated then people are willing to admit.
Yeah you’re right, another point that I should’ve made an extensive research before making my point.
I think an issue that this event has really highlighted is that governments and the people who live there are not the same thing and often have conflicting beliefs
Israel is at the front of the war on the west, from Syria to Lebanon and Iran. It’s in the west’s interest that they exist and be strong to be a force in the middle east and defend the west from falling to jihadist rule.
TikTok is banned in India so there’s way less anti-muslim sentiment on the platform.
Yes, let’s combat racism with more racism, way to go.
How is this racist? Behavior of BJP mob on Reddit was observable by how r/worldnews looked like depending on time of the day.
Oh so it wasn’t just me who felt that was feeling off in r/worldnews. The comments are horrific at times.
Turns out a lot of very reasonable people actually did leave Reddit over the summer and now the trolls and crazies have an amplified voice.
r/worldnews is some of the most diverse hivemind of -isms and -phobias I’ve seen concentrated in one subreddit. The flavour just depends on the time of day.
I’m so glad to see other people mention this because damn that sub has been wild lately.
Racism is when you don’t want muslim people to be oppressed and murdered? 🤔
Islam isn’t a race, and Indian Muslims aren’t Arab…they’re Indian, like Pakistanis are Indian and not Arab…
55% of Islamophobic tweets originated in India: apo.org.au/node/318935
It’s almost like teens see something like a genocide being committed, think it’s wrong and say something about it.
IDK, both can be true. Teens might be right in saying something and tiktok might be amplifying that kind of content because it helps China geopolitically. A highly upvoted post on Lemmy literally yesterday was this - www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/us/…/index.html
There’s a ton of support for the Palestinian people out there. It would strongly appear to be suppressed on commercial social media sites. I can’t say that Tiktok isn’t amplifying it, but as you poke around on open social platforms that tend to censor less, you see a lot more Pro-Palestine news and content. If you go through twitter or facebook and find specific regional bloggers, the content is out there but if doesn’t seem to pass the algorithm
The issue is not censorship, it’s disinformation and Hamas is all over it when allowed.
And conversely the Israeli government is known for its commitment to accuracy and preventing misinformation right?
I agree disinformation is an issue, but it’s an issue across the board on both sides of any issue
I’m skeptical that hamas has the resources to spread much misinformation to us. This doesn’t feel like a “both sides” time.
They literally have the government platform in Gaza and are for some reason believed at face value despite being more wrong than right. They are also amplified by multiple Arab states and their state run news organizations.
Right. I don’t think the Palestinian government has the propaganda resources to match the combined Israeli and US governments.
They absolutely do and they place no limitations on themselves.
Tiktok also didn’t censor the major protests in France like Facebook and Twitter did at the time.
Theres only a handful of social media outlets. Tik tok is just not suppressing the Pro Palestine content like Western owned media outlets have been.
We speak lots of " free speech " in the West, but look how quick, German, British, American, Canadian government and media spheres are united in calling Palestine protestors terrorists and supporting hamas.
Its just our lack of free speech being exposed when it goes against the powers that be.
That proves nothing, it might equally be in China’s geopolitical interest to support discontent and protests in the West. A more interesting question is if TikTok would promote content about the Uyghur genocide the same way.
Well we know for a fact that China has it’s own Douyin (Tiktok) app and that it prioritises stopping any inkling of random social movements/organisation through social media.
So this isn’t really a mystery at all. Within China they are subject to their laws. Elsewhere they follow global norms.
I actually think all the furore about China and Tiktok was really not about Chinese control over Tiktok in the West, but about the West’s own control over Tiktok. Much like how Huawei was booted for not allowing US intelligence agencies to put in backdoors, rather than actually enabling spying itself (this came out last year iirc).
Ironic seeing as Huawei was founded with IP they stole from Nortel. They can fuck off as far as I’m concerned.
From Nortel, Ericsson, Alcatel…
Its how innovation happens. I’m pretty sure the Americans did the same to the British.
Came out where?
China gains nothing by Mideast conflict.
Israel - clearly does not care about things like democracy and human rights.
I can see them drawing closer to China.
Russia arguably gains via ties with Iran and decrease of U.S. influence in the region. But, as far as news, reporting, information are concerned, it’s pretty irrelevant, if there’s actual propaganda then let it be shown and debunked, and even Iranian RT right now is barely saying anything surprising to anyone who’s been watching what’s happening on the ground.
Maybe the U.S. upvoted that to discredit China /j
Yeah I don’t think teens are particularly pro-Palestine or anti-Israel.
Teens throughout history have just been anti-war and anti-killing-children.
Imagine being a teenager and being against teenagers getting killed. What is this world coming to?
The sheer audacity
Obviously the teenagers are being mind-controlled
I don’t understand why so many stop doing so.
As you get older you learn that things are never black or white, and everything is grey. Global politics are complicated. The world is a giant chess board and Gaza is a pawn.
I’ve heard arguments that Israel should have essentially done nothing if they were good guys, but not retaliating sends a message to those funding Hamas that they should do it again.
Making matters worse, they are surrounded by people that constantly advocate for their eradication, they’ve already experienced such an event in their history, so to say they are more sensitive to it than other groups may be an understatement.
This was their 9/11. And back then the vast majority of Americans wanted to retaliate against Al Qaeda.
And to clarify further there is no “peace” between Israel and would be Palestine. You’re talking about 1 piece of land that three different religions have ancient ties to, with little desire to coexist on it. Chalk it up to just another failure of western powers dividing up the Middle East after WWII.
Short of some scenario where they can emigrate to Egypt or something, I don’t know what the answer is. They’re all bad options.
I am 29 and i only seem to become more radical of a pacifistic absolutists. Sure the world is grey, twisted dark sometimes even. But global politics are much more off a chaotic mess then they are complicated, and they are indeed complicated. There is no excuse to murder innocent people left and right for neither party or country.
It is naive to believe that we can just get rid of borders and become tolerant enough to let people live where they want without some issues but i much rather see us attempt that then maintain whatever we are doing right now.
I don’t think it’s healthy to be an absolutist about just about anything. The unattended consequences start to outnumber your ideals. If Israel hadn’t done after Hamas, Hamas would be empowered to keep doing it. The net effect would be more Israelis killed. Who knows, they may have been invaded by one of the several neighboring countries that would like nothing more than to destroy the country.
I think Ukraine is a better example though. I can’t fathom telling them they should try to get along with Russia. There’s the idea of being anti-war in general, and then there’s allowing a foreign aggressor to come in and take your country.
I think that you really did a good job summing up an incredibly complex issue in a fairly neutral way. No matter how smart you are as a kid/teen, there’s only so much you’re ever going to see play out, and it takes some time to get all the “data points” to start seeing the bigger picture.
As for Israel/Palestine, it’s literally one of the single most complex issues in geopolitics, and while it’s easy for someone reading articles and watching TikToks to just say “if Israel just gave them their land back and everything would be good!”, it’s ignorant of a much, much, MUCH bigger picture.
This is not saying I support any of what’s going on. I don’t think it’s particularly controversial to say that conflicts of any sort are fucking awful, but the reality is that if Israel just did pull out of the West Bank and ceded all the claims, there would be so many knock-on effects that are effectively impossible to predict, with none of them being particularly good.
Realistically, the only way you could ever hope to come to a “simple” solution that doesn’t result in a massive loss of life would be with a time machine.
Exactly. I think you’d have to go back to pre-Hitler to get any sort of major change, but then the butterfly effect comes into play heavily. What does Europe look like if Germany never escapes the grasps of their quite terrible post-WWI restrictions? Maybe all we do is flip the script and Jews are treated like the Palestinians but still in Germany? There’s no way of knowing.
I agree that it’s all awful. I don’t think there is a solution that leaves everyone happy and safe and that’s just the reality of life.
Sometimes a horrible outcome might be the best one. Germany and Japan were completely humiliated in WW2. Both turned out fine. Perhaps Palestine needs to properly lose this war. I mean, Palestine has lost wars several times against Israel before but they didn’t go through similar learning process that Germany and Japan did after WW2.
Stupid thing people don’t they like killing?
“You’re crazy to believe your own eyes!”
Israel has already killed 10-20x as many people as died in the Hamas attack, and they’re just getting started.
When the October 7 attack happened my teenagers noticed the one sided media and hamfisted pro Israel propaganda asked what’s really going on. Today’s kids are getting constant propaganda and advertising. They’re not immune but they recognize it and bristle.
When I was a teenager and Yitzhak Rabin was murdered i bought the anti palastine rhetoric that followed for an embarrassingly long time. And we knew that it was Netanyahu. Well, I don’t think we knew until later that he was aware that night of what he was doing. But we knew it was his follower who pulled the trigger.
Almost like when you take religion out of the picture it's one country committing genocide against another which is never okay for any reason. Israel can scream "but muh anti-semitism" all they want but it's a scapegoat. Ignore Jewish/Muslim backgrounds and look at what's really going on. It's nothing but a disgusting land grab and genocide that's been going on since WW2.
The world would 100% be a better place without Israel, and that's nothing to do with their religion. The country itself is evil and corrupt. They are bigoted and hypocritical. Israel deserves no sympathy or support. Out of all the bullshit I've seen happen in the middle east the past few decades, Israel is definitely the most abhorrent and repulsive source of conflict.
What do you think about Hamas? Why do they exist and what is their actual agenda? Is it really at the very top simply helmed by limousine-riding desert kings in Quatar?
Hamas is as bad as Isreal, but they are Isreal’s own creation. Most Palestinians don’t support Hamas just like most Isrealis don’t support their own government. It is two governments trying to commit genocide on the others civilians. Their are no good guys here. Just thousands of innocent civilians being massacred on both sides. The main difference is the US has decided to give one of these governments committing genocide the most advanced weapons available and practically no governments are even trying to help the Palestinians anymore. Not to mention hamas is commiting genocide to take back land the palestinians had a 100 years ago while the isrealis are commiting genocide to take back land they had 2000 years ago while pretending the palestians never even existed and spouting off racist revisionist history.
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The PA has power in the west bank, but not in Gaza (where Hamas is in charge). They’re not a very effective government, but they don’t seem to have genocidal intent either.
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Do we really need to argue which murderers are slightly less murdery?
The people in charge on both sides are doing their people a disservice by killing a shit load of people which in turn leads to the other side killing even more people.
Is there a surgical removal that could ameliorate this? Like is there an actual “Who” that needs to go if there’s to be any progress? I feel like this situation could use a panel of new eyes to help usher in the future
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Lmao
Except Israel is a country that wants to live in peace and Hamas has IT IN THEIR FUCKING CHARTER that they want to kill all Jews.
And when Hamas actually acts on their charter, the whole world goes shocked-Pikachu-face and condemns Israel for self defense and not agreeing to just be killed
No. Hamas’ charter was written at a time when Israel was committing atrocities in Palestine. It was written in anger by about half a dozen people. Noam Chomsky explains this pretty well. The original charter is basically irrevelent and has basically been disavowed by Hamas.
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The current charter says they would accept the 1969 borders.
Have you read it? It doesn’t say that.
“living in peace” is not invading someone’s land, taking their homes, slaughtering them, and putting them in a concentration camp for decades while killing kids when they retaliate.
You mean returning to the homeland after the Holocaust to a country as per UN resolutions , self-defense from terrorism in civilian areas (like suicide bombers and rockets into cities), and unilaterally disengaging from the Gaza Strip in 2005 while giving millions of dollars to a corrupt system that embezzled most of what wasn’t used to build weapons and terrorism infrastructure and teach children to love death and murdering Jews in their beds like they did on October 7th
You don’t get the use the homeland excuse by saying “oh well we were here 2,000 years ago”.
Yeah, Hamas isn’t as bad as Israel, it’s literally a resistance movement to the people that ethnically cleansed their population from their land and kept them in a concentration camp for two decades. The unbalanced condemnation tbph is the result of a concerted Israeli/Western propaganda campaign to obscure the context and nature of the attacks, including the hundreds of Palestinian people killed in 2023 before Oct. 7, and more fundamentally, the fact that Israel has been keeping 2.4M people in a high-tech concentration camp for the last two decades.
The atrocity claims against Hamas from Oct. 7 have some serious evidentiary issues at this point, even including some unknown number of the civilian deaths being attributable to the IDF (literally firing at, shelling and bombing Israeli citizens - though to be clear, there is video of Hamas shooting civilians as well). You compare this to the inhuman genocide being levied against Palestinians now - food, water, electricity, fuel, medicine being cut off for 5 weeks at this point, likely upwards of 20,000 civilians killed, at least half of the buildings in Gaza damaged or destroyed, attacks on hospitals, schools, refugee camps, ambulances, journalists, aid workers, without legitimate substantiation of their repurposing for military purposes - these are crimes against humanity. There is no equivalence here.
Hamas shouldn’t be even compared to Israel. Hamas is a fucked up religious/fascist terrorist organization, whereas Israel is one of the happiest and modern western countries in the world. In no way can it be said that Hamas is even on the same scale when talking about evil.
How is Isreal not also a “fucked up religious/fascist terrorist organization”?
You describe Isreal as happy and modern as some kind of defense, but having overwhelming military superiorty over neighbors, taking their land, and having extremely close ties with modernized western countries would cause that.
How exactly is Isreal not religious (state religion is Judaism). How is it not terroristic (you kill one of their citizens they kill 10 of your citizens and take your land)? How is it not fascist when Gaza is literally a concentration camp for 2 million people? Two wrongs don’t make a right, and having bigger guns certainly doesn’t make them righteous.
I wonder if the fact they aren’t muslim or as brown makes them better to you?
They didn’t start that way. They built that capability out of very real necessity, coming many times pretty close to annihilation.
By internationally agreed decisions, and after winning wars, I suppose?
Yes, that’s a good idea. Every country should do that.
State religion is perhaps an alien concept for Americans (which I guesstimate you are), but it’s a pretty normal thing in Europe. It doesn’t say much about religiousity, although clearly Israel has more crazy in that department than Europe, but also quite a lot less than typical muslim countries.
As for Israel, the largest religious group (33% in 2016) is “Judaism/Hiloni”, which is essentially a secularist/nonobserving version of Judaism. The actual number of secularists might be even actually higher.
Terrorism isn’t defined by numbers. It’s defined by tactics and intentions.
It’s literally not a concentration camp for 2 million people. You need to look up concentration camps.
Color has nothing do with it. Islamistic terrorism is a significant enemy of human civilization, however. That indeed does make them better for me.
Out of 27 countries, only three have official religions and they’re pretty small. Don’t talk shit out of your ass maybe?
Where did you grab that bullshit data from, ChatGPT? I live in a EU country that has an official state religion, and it’s none of those three countries. Or is there some semantic thing going on here? Is it not an official state religion even though it’s directly funded by the government, and government officials attend official religious events regularly?
Right back at you, buddy.
Wow you literally went so “whataboutist” that you actually say “what about” in your sentence.
do you genuinely think israel wants this tiny stretch of land, even at the cost of all of this(thousands of israelis dead, more soldiers die every day, rockets and terror attacks from lebanon, syria and yemen, and all the public backlash) I’ll tell you a hint, they truly don’t and if they did, they won’t take it this slowly, and this carefully not to hurt civilians if they truly just wanted the tiny piece of land, it would have been so kuch easier to just indiscriminately level the entire place (without the need for a ground invasion)
I know I’m not gonna change any minds here as people like you who have already decided israel is the culmination of all evil won’t back down from that belief that easily, but just try to not assume every israeli born is a racist Palestinian hater, and try to think why would they go through all of this, what do they stand to gain or to lose, assuming of course they are rational human beings
btw if it’s genocide for the past 56 years, they are truly really really bad at committing genocide
Yes, the leaders of Isreal want palestine removed from the map. They are not taking it carefully. They are indiscriminately leveling Gaza right now. Please ask the 4000 dead palestinian children how careful the Isrealis have been.
Wanting to commit genocide and having the political capital to get away with it are two different things. I know several isrealis that felt their country was commiting genocide and I know for fact that not all Isrealis are bad. Criticism of Isreal is not an attack on all isrealis just like criticism of Hamas is not an attack on all palestinians.
if you were right, a ground invasion would have never happened they would just drop a few very large bombs and be done with it without endangering more israeli soldiers
Gaza’s population stands at around 2 million it’s one of the most densely populated places on earth i feel like if they wanted after 40 days there would have been much much more than 4000 dead Palestinian children more in the area of 400000
also i still don’t get why in your view israel wants Palestine removed from the map, if we established it’s not the tiny piece of land itself
Why do they want to commit genocide
With the current situation prior to the attack how much was palestine costing Israel? Gaza cannot supply itself with water, electricity, or food. Israel needs to maintain border security too. Without palestine these costs go away or at least decrease significantly. Israel has already stated they believe this attack justifies them cutting off water, electricity, and food supplies in perpetuity. This in affect will kill most of the 2 million and will cost them less political capitol than bombing the Palestinians.
So why do they want to commit genocide? Money, power, revenge, racism, and religion are the main reasons, but they vary from person to person obviously.
Try to separate the civilians from Hamas, and yeah, starve the terrorists and supply aid to the civilians they have removed from harm’s way.
According to your faulty logic, it would be a hell of a lot easier to literally bomb everything without warning nor humanitarian corridors
You will never ever have a productive conversation with racists or terrorist sympathizers.
Getting your death count from a terrorist organization known for lying and inflating numbers is ridiculous.
When Hamas hide and build a shitload of terrorist infrastructure in civilian areas, you evidently get a lot of leveling happening, destroying that terrorist infrastructure.
Israel does more than any other country to minimize civilian deaths. But I’m sure you know about Hamas using civilians as human shields and outright shooting Gaza civilians trying to get away from the area
reuters.com/…/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-…
The health ministry is a medical organization, regardless of being under Hamas rule.
Just like Shifa Hospital isn’t used as a terrorist base.
Terrorists threaten and infilitrate even legitimate organizations in a corrupt government
Despite the raid ~24 hours ago, and the release, deletion and then re-release of an “uncut” video of the hospital since then, this absolutely remains to be proven. If anything the burden of proof has gone up, after the absolute bullshit they just published about it and about Rantisi hospital.
Also it’s “Al Shifa”, as in, “The Healing”.
theguardian.com/…/idf-says-hamas-hiding-evidence-…
Not sure if you’re posting this as support of IDF claims. The videos they’ve released have been absolutely ridiculous, show multiple signs of planted evidence (e.g. the same scene completely changing when shown to different news outlets) and do not support the assertion of a sophisticated underground command center.
For the number of times this specific hospital is used as justification you’d think they would have produced actual evidence for that claim by now.
They have: theguardian.com/…/idf-says-hamas-hiding-evidence-…
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Statistic provided by the terrorism organization Israel is trying to wipe out for the good of everyone on this planet.
1h, 0 downvotes.
Good luck buddy.
They want the land and the $500 billion worth of natural gas in the sea
have you looked at the territorial waters? in no way do gaza contest them in the ocean
I’d say they’re good at it considering they’re getting away with it.
Land grab? Can you explain? It looks like the status quo has been maintained since 1967 or so?
en.wikipedia.org/…/Israeli-occupied_territories
Ignoring all the ongoing colonization, didn’t they just take Jerusalem a couple years ago when Trump said they could put their embassy there?
Israel has allowed settlers to continuously claim land from the West Bank, enclosing its territory from the Palestinians who already lived there, preventing the Palestinian Authority from imprisoning settlers or kicking them out, and refusing to pursue legal action against settlers while illegally imprisoning Palestinians for retaliating when they see their land getting stolen without anyone defending them.
The world would also be a better place without Islam, but how realistic or ethical is it to seriously call for such a thing?
You can say “the world would be better without Israel” without actually calling for the eradication of the country. I think creating Israel was a historical mistake, but that doesn’t make it a mistake you can just paint over. Solutions must come from acknowledging the current reality and the innocent people who live at both sides of the border and their rights and dignity.
As I can also say that the world would be better without Islam without actually calling for anyone’s death. All worshippers of that religion should simply become apostates and no-one would needlessly die. But it’s another thing to force this against their will, which you would be doing in both cases.
The amount of pro Palestinian support is overwhelming everywhere. Only newspapers and Reddit bots and paid shills are still spreading IDF propaganda. The rest of the world sees israel for the Nazi’s they are.
Which is encouraging. It’s been a relatively silent genocide for decades, and while it’s good to see people waking up, it’s almost too late. Kinda like climate change.
Pretty shitty genocide if the population keeps growing…
It’s grotesque to me people that keep repeating this. The accusations of genocide almost universally relate to after Oct. 7. And population growth over a 60 year stretch does not discredit incitement to genocide or actions taken to attempt genocide.
And ethnic cleansing is still genocide. Palestinians are refugees the world over because of Israel. Some stuck in Egypt, the Sinai desert, some in Europe and others internally displaced stuck in Gaza originating from other places in Israel. It all stems from the 1948 Nakba where Jewish terrorist gangs began a massacre and campaign of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.
You mean the less than 1 million Jews in the British Mandate in 1948 who accepted the UN resolution for 2 States and were attacked by the Arabs in the British Mandate and all the neighboring Arab countries? I don’t think you know what ethnic cleansing means. SMH
I think the Israeli government is authoritarian, and their scorched earth tactics against Palestinians are war crimes, but you're not doing the cause any favors by invoking the Nazis. Criticize their actual behavior.
The problem is their behavior and rhetoric towards Palestine resembles a sentiment shared by the OG Nazis
The problem is when you mention Nazis to Jews, the first things they’ll think of are Zyklon B, Babi Yar, the piles of children’s shoes at Auschwitz, Mengele, that sort of thing.
And while what’s going on in Israel is terrible, it’s not Mengele terrible, Babi Yar terrible, or Treblinka terrible. So they write you off as just another antisemite, rather than listening to your point.
And yet that was only the very end. The stuff that came before that might as well be a mirror to the way Israel is treating the Palestinians.
No, not really. Nazi Germany lasted from 1933-1945.
From 1933 to 1939, things were mostly non-lethal: boycotting and vandalizing shops, banning Jews from public service or practicing law, harassing Jews, etc. The basic idea was to get Jews to emigrate out of Germany.
The first open ghettos were established in 1939, while the massacres really started in 1941.
If you’re going to compare Gaza to part of Nazi Germany, the best comparison is to the closed ghettos that were established in 1940, like the Warsaw ghetto. The period between the establishment of the closed ghettos and the beginning of the mass killings was way, way shorter than the mass killings. Of the 12 year span of Nazi Germany, the best comparison is to a period that lasted for about a year or so, 7 years in.
Nazi Germany really isn’t a great historical comparison to Israel. Honestly, a better comparison is to the US’s treatment of Native Americans, though it’s still not a perfect analogy. The dream of Israel’s far right isn’t to murder every last Palestinian, it’s manifest destiny; an Israel stretching from the river to the sea even if there’s a few small reservations on it.
Netanyahu and his cohorts have explicitly said they believe they need to kill every last Palestinian. motherjones.com/…/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israe…
I read this, and from what I can tell, he explicitly said they believe they need to kill every last member of Hamas, and a different unrelated person wrote an essay about how they need to kill all Palestinians?
They also have said anyone remaining in Gaza is Hamas so…
Well, thats only a relevant distinction if they meaningfully differentiate between Hamas and Palestinian. Considering they’ve talked about using nukes, that they think sacrificing an entire hospital full of innocents to maybe kill a few Hamas, and that we DAMN WELL KNOW how racism means generalizing anyone of a group to be the worst kind of that group, and the fact that the totally un-Hamas west bank is getting ethnically cleansed too, it’s incredibly naive to think they’ll leave any reasonable amount of palestinians alive.
Jesus Christ what a fuckng psycho
You need to look at what’s happening in West Bank.
When the Israelis impose a system of racial domination on Palestinians that is objectively worse than Apartheid, I’d say you needn’t bother handwringing about Israelis getting their feelings hurt. Fascists is always an alternative though - they’re politicians have used it themselves.
Netanyahu himself has made racist jokes favouring white Jews over the north african immigrants, so while ‘white supremacist’ also works at that point, you’re back to just saying ‘Nazi’.
Why is it worse rhan apartheid?
Because Jews don’t need Palestinians like White South Africans needed Black people for low wage jobs. So they can genocide them without a thought.
No I meant what evidence do you have that what they are actually doing is worse than apartheid?
Chiefly Nelson Mandela’s own words on the matter and Noam Chomsky’s. Other South Africans. The two-tier colonial system in place and TCM’s recent testimony on what he saw in the occupied territories was enlightening too.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
TCM’s recent testimony on what he saw in the occupied territories
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
A craven terrorist attack caused a military response that has claimed 11,000 lives to date, with a substantial proportion of those lives being women and children. This is a horrible thing. Hamas and the Israeli government can both go fuck themselves for the misery they have caused.
That said, AFAIK nobody is sending Israeli troops in to round up Palestinians and systematically incinerate them until all Palestinians are dead.
6,000,000 Jews suffered that fate.
The bombing of Dresden took 25,000 German lives. Nobody called that an attempted genocide.
Perspective is important.
The comparisons to the Nazis are actually inescapable. I struggle to think of a centrally orchestrated and mechanized system of apartheid/oppression and now genocide that’s more similar.
Godwin’s Law was repealed in 2016.
“Godwin’s Law” only said that the comparison to Nazis becomes inescapable the longer a conversation goes (not the common interpretation “whoever says Nazi first loses”). If I remember right he actually went back later and said it’s perfectly fine to draw the Nazi analogy to fascist states.
The Israelis have set up a systematic means of rounding up and murdering people until their entire race is removed from existence?
I hadn’t heard.
…you mean at the military checkpoints where Palestinians routinely disappear? How about the fact that Israel conducts human medical experiments on prisoners. Or the systematic rape of Palestinian women. How about the systematic attacks on Palestinian infrastructure that leaves 95% of Gaza without access to clean water. And that was before this current mess.
Grow the fuck up and open your eyes. Israelis are straight up evil.
The Israeli government is straight up evil, maybe.
The Israeli people have been targets of precise statements from multiple neighbors over the years telling them they would be exterminated as soon as the opportunity arose.
Put yourself in that position and tell me you wouldn’t support a right wing militant government that ran on a platform of hard borders and strong military.
How many wars of aggression have been waged against Israel since its founding? How many terrorist attacks? If the nations surrounding them put down their weapons and accepted them, there would be peace in the region. If the Israelis put down their weapons they would be murdered en masse.
How would you like a populace that came within a hair’s breadth of systematic extermination to react when they move to an area and are immediately painted as liars by neighbors who are Holocaust deniers and express the desire to finish the job?
Also if your argument is strong enough there’s no need to add that last part. It makes you seem weak and devalues any merit in your words, of which there is plenty. Nobody wants to see people getting hurt, but to fail to differentiate between the Israeli government and the Israeli people, and to ignore the situation they are in and the precursor to the establishment of the state of Israel, is a mistake.
They chose for religious reasons to slowly invade and genocide a people in an area that was extremely hostile to them.
Historically Jewish people have been given land in Spain and Italy to found their own nation. Both times they sold it and invaded Israel in history.
I have zero sympathy for them, because historically, they’ve been the invading aggressors to the region because they feel they have some sort of religious right to it, and since I’m anti-theist and believe religion is the root of all evil seeing both sides die in this conflict is kind of desirable to me.
I understand as a fellow atheist, but I would just say try to have some compassion for people as a whole, even if they believe in stupid sky daddys.
After what I went through at the hands of my ultra religious parents, at the hands of the Catholic church I went to, and finally at the hands of the conversion therapy religious camp I was imprisoned in, I can tell you right now I have absolutely zero capacity for any compassion for any believer what so ever.
If I could press a button and kill them all I’d do it in a heartbeat. No believer deserves even the tiniest iota of your sympathy or compassion. I promise you one atheist to another, they feel the same way about you.
I feel for your experiences but again want to stress that not all of them are unsaveable, many were just born into it and brainwashed throughout their lifetime and never actually given any alternative.
I used to be a very angry atheist as well, and I will definitely still debate theists and point out the idiocy in religion, but I also don’t particularly blame them for being that way.
Obviously there are many examples of shit people who wield it to hurt others, as you’ve clearly experienced, but they’re not all like that, and were not going to win any/many over by saying we want them all to die, even if I agree that the world would be better off if religion didn’t exist.
A common one I see is the “how can you have morals without religion” which… Ugh but people literally often aren’t ever given an opposing viewpoint in a reasonable and rational manner.
Anyway, hope you’re better in life after getting away from that garbage.
It literally says it’s good to kill atheists in their holy book, regardless of which abrahamic religion you choose. And while, yes, Christians, Muslims, and Jews can pick and choose what they follow, but in the case of Muslims, clearly you have to see the threat. If you don’t recognize the potential, or hear how they demonize atheists, I really can’t help you. You can allow yourself to be lulled into a false sense of security by some of them that pretend to be better, but I won’t.
Right, I’m aware, but we should strive to be more moral then them, that includes not wishing for their death just because of their religion.
See, I can’t separate the FACT that their religion calls for our death in their ‘holy and perfect word from god’ called the bible and they follow it still despite that. Their religion also justifies misogyny, slavery, and a myriad of completely immoral things.
Again, well aware, but the majority of religious folk in civilized countries discard those aspects. That is definitely a reason we have to fight back from them holding power or indoctrinating more children, but that still doesn’t justify calling for all of them to die.
Most Palestinians are Muslim and follow the Quran, not the Bible.
The Quaran, Torah, and Bible all have passages on killing atheists.
Children get indoctrinated into Islam and Judaism and inherit this conflict and its derived suffering from their parents. As an anti-theist, you should be able to see them as victims, rather than see the conflict as something positive.
How does that track?
Those kids have zero chance of growing up as anything other than the religion they’re raised in under even normal circumstances.
The one good thing out of all of this, is at the end of the day there’s that many less believers in the world.
You can definitely exit religion even growing up in a heavily religious environment, it seems you did in your own experience right?
I grew up in Texas surrounded by Christians, while I was lucky enough that both my parents are… Not religious per-say (but maybe deist?) I wasn’t forced into religion either, I went to church many times with family and friends but never really “bought it” and eventually ended up as an atheist. My wife was Christian when we met and eventually also came over to atheism eventually after many many discussions and videos and evidence etc… people can be deconverted, it just takes a lot.
I think the Internet helped me to not fall into the trap personally, and definitely helped with getting my wife out of it.
Am I a poor little victom instead of an oppressor because I didn’t personally create patriarchy, white supremacy, ableism, heteronormativity? If I keep supporting those systems, at least when I’m an adult, I am an oppressor and fully responsible.
Depends. Are you 10 years old, or do you have children under your care?
In a context where we have the lies about the hospitals having tunnels under them, that 40 non-existent babies were beheaded and where some key facts about Oct 7 have somewhat unravelled, how far would you even bother policing the words of people wishing for a liberated Palestinian?
The Israelis and their supporters are also notorious liars and frequently try to claim that Muslims or brown people were responsible for the Holocaust in Europe.
They’ve bombed civilians before and the intelligence they send tend to be garbage according to EU after they looked through the reams of documents the Israelis sent them. As an occupier, Israel behaves like a country at war all the time, they lie, kill and cheat perpetually.
I have never heard of Israelis by trying to blame the Holocaust on Arabs. On the other hand. .
themedialine.org/…/holocaust-denial-still-common-…
I’ll verify that my Arabic family are wildly antisemitic. They don’t denigrate Jewish individuals, mock their appearance, call them filth or anything in that vein. But they’re not just anti-Zionists either. They believe Jews control the world through a shadow network of conspirators. And when you believe that, it fits right in that they must have manufactured a Holocaust to win sympathy.
I think it all stems from anti-Zionism, though. They see a tiny country holding out against the entire Arab world, with the backing of powerful westerners, and their explanation is that the Israelis must have America and the EU dancing on puppet strings. It’s like when a foe pulls off a stunning victory and their enemies say they must have cut a deal with the devil because how else do you explain it. I don’t believe any of that, though I do find the American military support for Israel totally sus and wrong.
Jews were in high positions in the Arab world and iirc lived well. Much of the blame for the rise in anti-semitism is almost purely down to Zionism. Jews came to be seen as colonial collaboraters with the great powers against that region. In Algeria they literally were - the French were able to create a two-tier colonial society by giving Jewish Algerians who were native to Algeria citizenship and denying Muslims the same by claiming cultural incompatibility. Hence, Jews became a colonial force in that country.
In Iraq, Zionists terrorised the Arab (Iraqi!) Jewish community there by bombing Synagogues and cultural centers and collaborated with Iraqi nationalists to force Iraqi Jews into leaving for Israel.
So there are different experiences here, but almost all is down to colonialism and zionism.
Yep great insights. Thank you for adding.
Lol when were these Jews in Iraq bombed and who exactly are the zionists who did the bombing?
Imagine you walked into the camps and saw the smattering of walking skeletons that were left from the multiple thousands of people who had preceded them into the gas chambers or ovens.
I think it’s hard to really imagine what level of trauma that would cause, and how shocking it would be to see those images.
I think that is the foundation of a powerful bond between the West and Israel, and it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
I find it extremely troubling that Netanyahu and his cronies have said that the only solution to the issues they are having is to exterminate all Palestinians (assuming that quote is accurate) and I do think that their actions are horrifying and deserve criticism, but that’s the government. I have no issue with the people of Israel. I believe that in part these actions are Bibi covering his own ass for not stopping nor even anticipating a massive attack from a known enemy. I understand his desire to root out Hamas, but there has to be a way to do so with more accuracy and less civilian misery and death.
He has said Hitler didn’t intend to destroy Jews until a Muslim told him to.
His son posts Nazi memes on Facebook (featuring Greenwald).
He is also suspiciously happy that his son married a white Scandinavian woman.
He made racist jokes/comments about north african jews in their military and that white jewish officers must lead them.
Wait what came out about the October 7 attack?
Half the people on the list of deaths Israel put out had Lt and Sgt on their names. So they’re soldiers. And the official number has gone down from over 1400 to 1200.
Jesus Christ, so 600 civilians? And I’m guessing it’s over 10k in Palestine now? I’ll have to look for a source to verify this but if you have one in the meantime that’d be appreciated.
I’m saying half because of the list they put out, but apparently it looks to be 700-800 civilians when counted. The list they originally put out on twitter was an image.
These are all still Israel’s numbers, who are notorious liars. And we also know they were shooting and bombing hostages along with Hamas fighters indiscriminately during the battle.
You can see ‘half’ the image have Lt and Sgt on their names, sometimes in full. twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1722045168382021929
They turned Gaza into a concentration camp.
As Jews, they should absolutely know better.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps
70.auschwitz.org/index.php?option=com_content&…
Getting downvoted for linking to facts, you have my sympathy my friend…
There are amusement parks, beach resorts and night clubs… there’s a few travel vlogs showing what life was like before the attack on 10/7. I was quite surprised to see what was available there after the years of media.
Not saying it was the coastal beauty it could have been, but they had amenities that you didn’t exactly find at Auschwitz or Bergen…
You’re talking about Gaza or Tel Aviv? I’ve been to Gaza man, 95% of them didn’t have clean water in 2014 and that number didn’t change up until today. Gaza itself was a hellhole.
The resorts and stuff you see are on Jewish territory. They’ve destroyed anything nice Palestinians have.
I’m talking about Gaza. I’ve been there too, once they elected Hamas their fate was sealed. The potential was there before they fucked themselves for generations. Israel left a lot of infrastructure in place When they pulled out.
It wouldn’t have been Tel Aviv, they would never achieve the Tech power of that city but they could have been a real nice vacation spot.
They “elected” Hamas. In an election that was never certified, had more votes total than people living there and there hasn’t been an election since.
But even if they legit did vote for Hamas I wouldn’t blame them. Killing Israelis after all they’ve done is just.
So revenge is cool in your books. Interesting. Let’s see how that works out. Not a strategy id suggest.
I’m going to laugh and laugh when the collective Muslim world grinds Israel to the dust one day. I’ll probably even get to see it in my lifetime.
They’ve been trying for 75 years and getting their shit pushed in. They probably like it though which is why they keep coming back for more.
Maybe you should go join the liberation Army if you’re so keen on killing Israelis. I’m sure the IDF would love to use your fatass as target practice.
Just watch lol.
The problem is the US is getting dragged into that, and, speaking as someone who knows something about the subject, Iran almost certainly has a few nukes smuggled within US borders. The CIA has recovered quite a few soviet era nukes that were smuggled into the US, Vice did a decent job showing how black market nukes are in the US.
The thing is… while Iran might have a few nukes, Israel does too and they’ll act first like we’ve seen. That’s a given. Tehran would be glassed before they could find their codes.
If you think the US or Israel is going to lose that foothold in the region you’re insane. There’s a clear reason there are Aircraft carriers in the region right now and that’s daring Iran to be a retard here and have their regime changed.
In the 20s Gaza was a tourist destination.
The Nazis forced Jews into ghettos. Gaza is a ghetto that Palestinians are forced to live in.
Zionists will not however, directly kill every Palestinian. They will indirectly try to kill every Palestinian by colonizing every last inch of land from the Palestinians. The ones that immigrate away will be too scattered to maintain a coherent ethnicity, and eventually their culture will be erased.
So, while practically speaking they’re not as bad as Nazis, they are as effective as Nazis, if not more so.
I’ve still got plenty of friends who support Israel over here in the states, including basically everyone conservative I know.
Interesting, I actually know a couple conservatives that are anti globalism, which justified their anti Israel stance. However, the conservatives I know that are party aligned due to religious preferences… that’s another story
They’re not “anti-globalism”. They don’t even know what that means. They’re just parroting Alex Jones. I don’t like globalism, but conservatives who go off about globalism are actually just being anti-semitic and using Israel as shorthand for “the Jewish secret ruling class”.
As someone who stands mostly in the middle, I rarely comment on this issue because every second poster calls anyone that has even the mildest sympathy for Israel’s situation a Nazi.
You people are tiresome and it’s honestly not worth ‘debating’ with you.
The English language is great. If your friend was recently kicked out of their house by a Nazi and is arguing with them about it, you can see if things get violent and call out “hey, Nazi debater!” and they will both turn their heads, unsure if you’re talking to them or the other guy. Hilarity will ensue from this small confusion, and all will end well.
That having been said, the Nazi will still conveniently forget all their country’s history, will declare they are the “pure” or “chosen” ones, and proceed to cleanse the ones that don’t fit their world view, including your friend.
An ethno-state is based on race superiority that is committing genocide to expand their lebensraum by dehumanizing their enemies and calling for the indiscriminate slaughter of people of a certain race by locking them all up in a giant concentration camp.
Now where the fuck did I hear they one before? Oh yeah the Nazi’s. It’s almost comical how much israel is a copy of Nazi Germany.
You are correct that I will call every israel sympathizer a Nazi because they are Nazi’s by practically everyx single definition.
Sorry, didn’t read past ‘ethno-state’. Pretty clear where you were going from there. Nice talking with you.
I stand for the people. I support Israel, but not it’s far right government that wants to kill all palestinian people and take their lands, but at the same time, I support Palestine, but not it’s extremist terrorist leaders.
Wars are fought between two or more governments for their own goals and is a competition who cal kill the other side the most (including it’s civilians).
You can support a country without supporting their government, however people sometimes tend to be lazy and just say “fuck Israel” instead of saying “fuck the government of Israel”, or say “fuck Palestine” by being ignorant instead of saying “fuck HAMAS”.
Innocent people should not be vilified for just wanting to live their lives in peace.
Lmao ok
A broken tiktok is right twice a day…
As far as I can tell, neither government here has the moral high ground…and I chose the word “government” there for a reason.
It is my understanding from very far away only able to see through Lie-O-Vision that two governments that hate each other because religion are basically taking it out on civilians who just want to live their lives. It’s a tragedy that has basically nothing to do with me yet it does cast my eyes toward my own capitol city with a bit of a suspicious squint.
I’m pro-human beings and opposed to killing and maiming people who are trying to enjoy their life.
They’re just trying to survive. We’ve already made it impossible for them to enjoy life
Yet we’re not seeing calls for Hamas to step down and let innocent Palestinians live in some version of peace that can never be known under Islamic jihad…
Which I find very weird. The lack of conversation surrounding the admitted goals of the leaders of the Palestinian people is something that needs to be part of any conversation.
Because they’re not going to do that. You can’t call them terrorists and expect logical reasonable action or reaction.
The Palestinian people by in large did not vote Hamas in, over 50% of the people in Gaza were not alive during the last election.
So we shouldn’t call them terrorists and hope they stop killing people? I’m sorry that doesn’t make any sense. Israel isn’t about to stop their war on Hamas, yet it doesn’t stop the world criticising them.
While technically true, almost 70% of Gazans support armed attacks on Israeli civilians.](pcpsr.org/…/Poll 89 English Full Text September 2…) I know it doesn’t fit the oppressor/oppressed narrative, but the vast majority of people in Gaza support what Hamas is doing. If elections were held today, according to that same poll, they would vote Hamas back in.
It doesn’t make sense no, it’s also not at all what I said but neat projection.
That’s an opinion poll for a population that generally do not answer and those that do answer have to think about how that might get out and what extremists might do about that.
Ed sample population sub 2000… Jesus dude did you vet this at all lol.
Excuse the tangent but you made me look it up. >50% of Americans weren’t eligible to vote in 2000 but apparently I need to answer for the Iraq War for the rest of my friggin’ life like that was my personal decision.
.
Hamas is a jihadist organization though…
If they don’t represent the majority maybe they should hold elections and let a party that represents the majority take the lead?
Sure, and Israel is a Zionist nation what’s your point.
Yes the terrorist organization is going to relinquish control… Yeah.
I don’t see why this matters at all when Hamas wont allow elections and is an authoritarian government.
That’s quite literally the point.
It doesn’t matter that they didn’t vote for Hamas because it was not possible and will never be possible. Why is that the point?
To me, this seems exactly like the other guys point.
Are you paying attention to the conversation or a single comment you’ve chosen to take issue with?
Ah, there’s the answer, you aren’t paying attention.
Theres only 2 other comments in this thread.
https://lemmy.world/comment/5354655
Well this is like your 3rd comment that isnt clear why its relevant.
If you’re just going to make impossible statements, then we might as well be discussing unicorns and leprechauns.
That sounds like a you problem bud, one and one is two of you’re bad at math I can’t help much.
I like how literally all your comments are irrelevant lol Nicely done mate 👍
It couldn’t be that you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about… No …
Can you explain why it matters that Gazans haven’t voted for Hamas when there havent been elections and Hamas is a dictatorship?
Did you read the comment I linked.
This is typical of the bad faith, pro-Hamas people I’ve ran into on Lemmy. Outside of people like you, lemmy has been pretty enjoyable. Welcome to the block list.
Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I’m with Hamas, they’re both doing shitty shit because they’re both shitty. Simple as.
It’s a false dichotomy to condition ceasing the extermination of a whole innocent population to protests towards a terrorist organization. Israel does not need to bomb several hospitals to stop Hamas. There are other ways to go about stopping terrorists.
Maybe you don’t see many calls at Hamas because people are catching up with how wholesale persecution and extermination of people is often justified by pointing to a few malicious individuals that are part of that population.
There’s no extermination. Quit getting your talking points from Tiktok and Twitter.
Do you have anything but dismissive snark or are you going to pretend continuous bombing of civilian buildings is some sort of surgical targeted action.
There’s a pretty big difference between stupid declarations about things that simply aren’t true, and trying to start a conversation. I just assumed with an axiom like that there was no conversation to be had.
Clearly there’s no conversation to be had, but because you want to pretend whatever you don’t like to hear is false and stupid, without even trying to offer any reason for it.
They can fuck off to any other 20 Arab/Muslim countries. How many other Jewish countries are there?
Oh yeah, somebody goes to you and tells you to move to diffent country or they’ll drop a bomb on you and your family, I’m sure you’ll happy to comply. Whatever religion and ethnicity you are, I’m sure you can just go anywhere vaguely similar and know everyone on a first-name basis.
This is neither a matter of handing the whole region exclusively to palestinians or to israelis. Justifying it because “there are other arab/muslim countries” is such a frankly childish way to justify a conflict as serious as this. Needing to say this is almost ridiculous, but a region doesn’t need to be populated by only a single kind of people.
How do you know this? Are you an expert in counter-terrorism or warfare?
I am not stupid and I’m capable of empathy. Really, do you need a reason to understand that bombing hospitals full of innocent civilians is a horrible thing?
I also know enough recent history to have some inkling that widespread bombing might not be that effective at stopping a terrorist movement. Say, like US wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.
I don’t understand how being a horrible thing relates to this discussion. Things can be horrible and necessary at the same time. Things might even be horrible and the best course of action at the same time.
Consistently groups that do horrible, entirely excessive atrocities insist that they are necessary and vital. It does not mean that they are, and it’s definitely something you should not assume blindly, or at all.
There needs a lot more than “might” to even begin to justify it. Then again, might alone is often used to get away with it.
I’m convinced this whole tiktok is manipulating the algorithm thing is actually US propaganda.
US propaganda is so, so bad. Russia and China are awful, but US is no better in this regard.
Here’s how you actually “manipulate the algorithm.”
1: take up residency in the comments, and at the same time start a few basic accts that don’t say anything too controversial (day in the life kinda stuff, thirst traps, etc). Establish a basic presence
2: once you amass a following, you start with pretty basic stuff lots of young people agree with - housing/healthcare reform, work reform, etc
3: an important part a lot of people miss - have your own team troll your comments. Stir up shit. The goal is to get people riled up, not move the needle in any specific direction
4: throw out something big (it’s been confirmed that Russia is behind distribution on TikTok of OBL’s “Letter to America” recently). Fight on both sides, tagging in as much of the greater sphere of commenters as you can.
That’s it. That’s all anyone’s doing. Just do this over and over and you eventually drive people crazy.
They did the exact same thing in 2016, they did it in 2020 with BLM, they did it with Ukraine. It’s nothing new
Sounds pretty convincing, but you lost me in the end. Who did “exact same thing” in 2016, 2020, and 2022? Are you implying that Russia and/or China were trying to increase the harm done to the US that way? I’m quite at a loss here
Yes. This is the new age of psychological warfare, and has been recorded occurring at these instances, among others.
100%
Russian trolling is pretty well documented at this point. They overthrew several Baltic nations and bought a lot of breathing room during the 2016 election.
It’s been all over the news and stuff.
A little from column A, a little from column B?
Have you seen Chinese TikTok vs America TikTok? It’s wild. The Chinese TikTok has videos of scientists and musicians and engineers all tackling major problems. It’s inspirational. The American TikTok is absolutely fucked. There’s clearly heavy algorithm manipulation. At the very least, we know China could make American TikTok not terrible and they choose not to.
My TikTok FYP is various scientists/science commenters, stand up comedians, chubby goth girls dancing, Magic The Gathering card reviews, and swinger shit.
If you engage only with things you like, you’ll only see things you like.
Yeah, Western Tiktok is just more liberal lol. If you don’t like it, go and live in… China?
Stupid lizard brains are too easily tricked with tribalism and anger though. It takes a real conscious effort to curate your feed like that.
Any nuanced opinion on Gaza gets trashed because both “teams” view you as the enemy. You’re always pushed towards absolutism.
I agree with the latter, but I don’t think it takes a lot of effort to curate a TikTok FYP.
Yeah you literally just like videos and hit not interested on shit you don’t like
A lot of the best sci-fi is coming out of China these days. People who like to theorize about these things point to a population, much like America in the post war Baby Boom, seeing for themselves the benefits science can bring to their lives as China pretty rapidly develops, and being fascinated by what could be next.
So you might need to accept that the most popular trending American social media is venal and insipid because the average American wants to see venal and insipid, while the Chinese population might just be interested in things that interest them.
How society has fallen
Nah, just more educated.
Palestine is the 2nd most oppressed country today, only behind North Korea. All because of the west.
Palestine is not a country… It’s an oppressed region with 0 chance of liberation, since their leaders are more focused on arming their children and raping their enemies’ wives than actually developing their infrastructures and education system. And the whole world just lets those leaders keep that power which they keep on corrupting.
Homie what.
The US army also raped women in Iraq and Afghanistan, but you won’t talk about that would you.
And what is even the point you are trying to make?
I mean, I doubt that… Considering the U.S has better women’s rights than the regimes in Afghanistan, I’d like to think they’re treated better under U.S custody than under the Taliban. Got any reference to that statement?
And my point isI mean, I doubt that… Considering the U.S has better women’s rights than the regimes in Afghanistan, I’d like to think they’re treated better under U.S custody than under the Taliban. Got any reference to that statement?
And my point is that Palestine is a. Not a country, and b. Not oppressed like other ethnicities of the world - they’re an active part of a very old ongoing conflict which causes great humanitarian disasters, but are not the pure rightful poor oppressed side, and blaming the whole crisis just on the west is wrong.
TikToc is a site that people use to share information, and at the end of the day, this is their main complaint. Their golden idea is for one or two major corporations to control the message and decide who to support.
youtu.be/-xVufYXaGg8?si=-n1FPnjr1VGpf0Mc
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/-xVufYXaGg8?si=-n1FPnjr1VGpf0Mc
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
IMO there are big risks consuming news & opinion from any single source.
Whether it’s the CCP manipulating the TikTok algorithm, Russia buying ad space on Facebook, or American conglomerates pushing narratives on western mainstream media, there will be implicit biases everywhere.
The only real answer is to get news from multiple sources with diverging perspectives, try to find where facts overlap, challenge your own implicit biases, and form a perspective in line w/ your values.
Seeing America blame TikTok for pushing propaganda is the pot calling the kettle black – and honestly more of a distraction than anything else.
The real important issue is that people are dying, and the existing power structures are doing jack shit to stop it.
tiktok discourse is designed to create the narrative that no one could possibly be pro-palestine, and that humanity can be split into “people who see the truth and support Israel absolutely” and “people who have been fooled by propaganda”. do I think there’s pro-palestinian propaganda? absolutely. there’s also literal commercials for israel in between the youtube videos that I watch.
an asshole loves nothing more than another asshole, so that while he’s being an asshole he can point his finger and go “look at what an asshole that guy is!”
.
If you aren’t anti-oppression or anti-apartheid you aren’t progressive
.
Ah yes the choice between democracy (fascism lite) and fascism.
It’d be nice if Americans finally overthrew their system or just voted for other parties/independents.
Also not everyone here is from the US btw.
Lol, yet.
Fascist nations aren’t exactly known for not invading weak nations with excess money.
Swap excess money for excess natural resources and you’ve got the US
That’s the idea, yeah.
Can you say “The European Protectorate?”
Neo-colonialists the lot of them sadly
Wow you’ve solved the whole issue we’re discussing.
/s
The current problems in the middle east are mainly due to western powers. Whether that is the British or French drawing random lines on a map over 100 years or america destabilising resource rich countries.
Things that make it look like the US is the bad guy once again:
Unironically we wouldn’t be in this situation if the US and israel weren’t dicks about everything.
Democracy is demonstrably far less oppressive than fascism.
If you are actually anti-opression, the choice for Democracy is a no-brainer.
My point is that the incumbent party and the opposition are both anti democracy and authoritarian compared to the rest of the world.
Look at the police brutality against peaceful activists in the capitol last night and tell me if that was China that wouldn’t be used by the American media to tell Americans how authoritarian China is.
This is happening under the democrats, the alleged protectors of democracy. Last time I checked freedom of speech was a democratic ideal in America and the right to protest was a human right.
You’re running in nonsensical circles my dude. First you say “Democracy” is “fascism-lite”, now you’re saying that to be “anti-Democracy” is “authoritarian”.
Did you slip up and accidentally reveal to the wrong community that you’re anti-Democracy, or did you poorly communicate your original intent and write out the wrong statement?
The ultimatum posed to me was democracy vs god emperor, in this context it is clearly putting democrats as the democratic option and republicans as the theocratic authoritarian option.
Me saying in response:
Is not me saying democracy is fascism, its me saying the two options both look like fascism from outside the US.
Ahhh that makes a lot of sense now.
I want to make my position on this part clear:** there’s no defending the DNC for supporting a genocidal apartheid state.**
But like it or not, the DNC is demonstrably far better on LGBT rights, women’s rights, minority rights, and voting rights in the US. They could look similar to you, but with the DNC there is actually a path forward to be better.
And also like it or not, Trump will do nothing good for Palestine. Trump fucking hates brown people, he hates Muslims, the situation will get worse for everyone in the middle east and for women and minorities in the US. And long-term, if you all think America is racist and imperialist now, when cristo-fascists take over and really turn America into a white Christian empire that launches a religious crusade against the rest of the world, y’all will realize how good you had it when it was just the neolibs being greedy for money.
Good thing our democracy in the US is exceedingly healthy and citizens vote directly and not through sellout politicians. Oh wait
It’s just not a Democracy, unfortunately.
Bad faith actors weaponizes this against the concept of Democracy itself.
This is an incredibly stupid thing to say when the current president is supporting genocide.
.
I have skin in the game, because if America aids in a genocide, I as an American am partially responsible. I’m okay with being arrested, or even a second coup attempt by trump, if it means preventing a genocide.
It’s the kind of progressive that only counts things that affect you personally
Yeah well, one can be anti-oppression and anti-apartheid as well as anti-terror, anti-killing-civilians, anti-bombing-hospitals, anti-using-civilians-as-shields, anti-hostage-taking and anti-warcrimes.
The israeli Government is not the only one with blood on their hands and while nothing can excuse what the IDF is doing, nothing can excuse what HAMAS is doing too.
Both sides fucking suck, the only difference I can see is that HAMAS is bad for Israelis and Palestinians moreso than the Israeli Government is also bad for Israelis.
Oh no! Not a German overcompensating for their countries role in the holocaust.
If you want to dismantle Hamas for the the operation on the 7th, by the same logic we should dismantle Israel 10x for all their operations since 2003 such as operation lead.
Do you have a source for this?
jordannews.jo/…/Helicopter-footage-shows-IOF-targ…
You literally listed off everything Israel is doing. Good job.
Israel’s killed over 11k civilians since Oct 7th.
Israel’s bombed over 20 hospitals.
Israel refused to take their hostages back even when Hamas offered them in exchange for the Palestinians hostages Israel has. Then bombed the locations they know hostages were at.
yea exactly I’m sick of all this whataboutism about Hamas. Hamas is the sole response to the atrocities that the idf has started. they hold all the power in this situation, they have killed many many many more people then Hamas ever could. They have also committed and are committing insane like Nazi level war crimes and all we get is… okay but Hamas bad.
also lets not forget… most Palestinians didn’t even want Hamas. they havent had an actiall election in almost two decades. Because it’s literally not safe enough because the idf keeps bombing them.
stop all the back and forth finger pointing, America could pull funding from isreal, instead of this E fleas posturing. If isreal wanted peace then we could hve peace but there will never be peace until the idf stops bombing refugee camps and hospitals lol.
so sick of all this whataboutism, obviously any killing is wrong but Hamas is just a glorified token a red herring being used to justify brutality on a Holocaust level scale. and we need to stop allowing it.
Not for lack of trying. If it weren’t for the billions of dollars spent on the Iron Dome every year, and the Israeli intelligence apparatus allowing them to evacuate their cities before attacks, many more Israelis would be dead. Attempted murder by Hamas is still atrocious.
Hamas still had broad support as of 2020, so no most Palestinians do want Hamas.
Tell Hamas to stop using them as bases of operation and firing rockets at Israel from those locations then. Hamas wants dead Palestinian civilians, that’s their goal in the war to make Israel look bad.
It pains me to admit but that works and I think Israel does look bad because of this. Also when you have people indoctrinated to the level that they will gladly act as a shield to become martyres it is hard to fight clean :( I haven’t thought about this possibility before
Hamas is using hospitals as staging grounds to fire rockets at Israel, over 9,500 rockets so far since Oct 7th.
The hostage exchange was for a ceasefire that Hamas wanted so they could regroup and start attacking Israel from stronger positions. And they only offered 15 of the 200+ hostages. It was fucking bullshit, and Israel was right to reject it.
nothing really found in the hospitals yet - apnews.com/…/israel-hamas-war-news-11-16-2023-6c7…
We know Hamas fighters have been using the hospitals to stage rocket attacks, and fire out of. Whether there is an actual base of operations hidden in them is beyond the point, Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to fire at Israel from. They have said as much, they fight from among civilians to get Israel to kill civilians so Israel looks bad to the world. It’s how Hamas operates.
where is your citation?
edit: even if there is, that does not justify the shelling of hospitals by the IDF
Of course it justifies it. Why wouldn’t it?
Because of the geneva conventions about protections civilians.
What does the Geneva Convention say about using civilians as human shields? What does the Geneva Convention say about using hospitals, schools, places of worship as military headquarters or outposts? What does the Geneva Convention say about murdering civilians to prevent them from evacuating from an area that is under attack?
There are protected symbols such as the red cross and red crescent that you are not allowed to misuse. But it is also clear that everyone is responsible for not doing any war crimes. So even if your enemy does a war crime you are not allowed. Normally the only protected places along the ones you have listed are hospitals. All have to do their best to protect civilians, you are not allowed to engage an enemy if there are big risks of damaging no-combatants, e.g. if a small group of enemy combatants is traveling through an area filled with civilians, you are not allowed to target that area just because the few targets. Military targets have to travel is areas with civilians all the time. Targeting civilians is always a war crime. All actions have to be proportional. There is never an excuse to commit a war crime. Even if the enemy targets hospitals, like Russia, is accused of in Ukraine, that does not give Ukraine forces any permission to attack Russian hospitals. If Hamas shoots civilians, it doesn’t excuse IDF to do the same. Even if IDF shoots civilians, Hamas is not allowed to do the same. In technical terms, you could discuss the theoretical coverage of the Geneva Convention as such for the Gaza strip. The amendments around it may or may not regulate how Israel and IDF are allowed to operate. It was written for regular wars between nations, if, when, how, and stuff get into civil wars. What happens then is a bit more unclear. There are regulations about occupied territories, that Gaza falls into.
Then I assume you’re aware that the Geneva Convention make one exception where hospitals lose their protection: when they’re used for a military purpose that is harmful to the enemy.
In other words: a warring faction cannot simply set up a military headquarter, a military outpost or a military attack position in a hospital and expect to enjoy the full protection granted to medical facilities while using it to attack the enemy.
You’re aware of that, right?
I’ll say losing its protection is an over-simplification. Yes, when a significant military target is misusing the protected signs they can be ignored. You still however are not allowed to break the first rules around minimising any civilian losses. So the civilian people in the area are still protected, they don’t lose their protection. Injuries to civilians should always be kept minimal. If the hospital is cleared out and is only used for military operations (treating wonder soldiers is not a military operation here) then the symbols of the hospital don’t have any protection. No, if you attach from within anything that is protected, you should expect to be attacked. At the same time, any attack on the enemy has to be proportional and should always strive to minimize civilian losses. Including civilian material losses. An example is a sniper hiding in a civilian building. It’s probably a war crime to bomb the house. Even when there are no civilians in the house. If there is a full platoon using the same place for defense, and the terrain is hard, it is probably ok for the same bombing. If the building also has a few hundred civilians, well it is back in the probable war crimes to bomb it out and some other ways of taking the objective have to be considered. This even looks at the house without any special protection. Same with an ambulance, if there are enemy combatants in the ambulance attacking you, of course, you can take it out. If there are enemy combatants in the ambulance that are not attacking you, you can take them prisoner. But you can’t shoot first to make sure there are no combatants in it. For me, if there has been a bombing of a hospital building with masses of patients inside, it’s a clear war crime. Even if there were a few military in the same building.
There was an article on the active page of Lemmy yesterday with confirmation of Hamas fighting from a major hospital.
So it should be easy for you to link it. That is, if it does prove your point and exists in the first place. Because right now your source is “trust me bro”.
i24news.tv/…/1699881898-idf-releases-footage-of-h…
aol.com/…/israel-clashes-hamas-major-hospital-162…
We don’t know that, that’s just what Israel claims. Israel is known to lie about that stuff.
There is video of weapons fire coming from hospitals, so we do have that.
And Hamas is constantly lying too, yet everyone on this site seems to eat up everything they say.
Hamas has not lied as blatantly as Israel. The death tolls they have reported have typically been corroborated by later independent sources.
What does weapons fire actually imply in a territory subjected to constant bombing and siege warfare? It’s not like hospitals are safe from bombings and other attacks, so being armed in a gaza hospital is simply the intelligent thing to do
Most independent sources I’ve seen reporting on numbers have been Palestinians. The UN is not reporting on casualties because it cannot verify any of the claimed numbers.
And Hamas lied about 500 Palestinians being killed in one attack on a hospital by Israel, except it turned out that attack was actually Islamic Jihadists misfiring, and nowhere near 500 people died.
Hamas verifiably made up that 5% of the casualties in this war, so no, you shouldn’t believe the rest of their numbers.
And Hamas has fired thousands of rockets into Israeli territory since Oct. 7th, that goes beyond defending yourself in a hospital.
And the bombing and siege warfare started after Hamas invaded Israel, killed over a thousand civilians, and fired thousands of rockets at Israeli cities.
Pretty sure that attack was actually done by Israel, if we are talking about the same thing. Hamas fired thousands of rockets because Israel is genociding them, essentially via siege warfare. The media simply decided not to cover all of the preceding heinous shit Israel did to provoke it, because the capitalist class owns the media. You should really start verifying the truth of random news stories you read, because it sounds like you believe the myth being spread by Western media that Israel is the good guy. Israel is committing genocide, and so it really doesn’t matter at all what Hamas or Palestine has done in response.
No, that attack was confirmed to be Islamic Jihadists, and it was confirmed Hamas lied.
And your forgetting all the heinous shit Palestine did to make Israel like it is today, like trying to wipe out all the Jews as soon as Israel was formed, launching another war against them in 1967, 30 years of having a government that wanted Israel wiped out as their second charter.
There are no good guys, but Hamas are terrorists and need to be wiped out.
Israel is the one actively colonizing palestine’s land. Israel is the one holding a 30 year siege. Israel is targeting civilians, as shown by the civilian death tolls on each side. Israel is doing all they can to torture and kill Palestinians. Dead palestinians outnumber dead Israelis 10 to 1.
Palestine is good because they are killing genociders, just like the allies were good in WW2. Israel is evil. It’s not complicated.
Jews are indigenous to that land as well, so no they aren’t colonizing it, they are living in their homeland.
Hamas is targeting civilians, or are you forgetting the 1,400 Israeli civilians killed on Oct 7th, and hundreds taken hostages, not to mention the thousands of rockets fired before and since Oct. 7th at Israeli civilians.
The only reason more Palestinian civilians have died is not for lack of Hamas trying. Israel is just better at defending the own people than Hamas is.
Hamas is actively trying to genocide Israelis. Hamas is evil, it’s not complicated.
No, you’re wrong. Stating it again and again won’t change that. They are in fact colonizing palestinian land, just look at their maps that claim it as theirs. At this point I have to assume you’re either trolling me, or you’re wildly misinformed. Either way, I suggest you go read some articles about this. Literally everything you’ve said is incorrect.
Palestine didn’t exist as a state and never did until the same time as Israel. That land was part of the Ottoman empire, and then the British mandate. before that it was controlled by various empires throughout history. Both the Palestinians and Israelis are indigenous to that land, and if Palestine and other Arab nations hadn’t tried to wipe out the Jews in 1948 the moment Israel was established, maybe Israel wouldn’t be trying to take what’s left of Palestine.
And no, I’m not trolling you, I think you’re an idiot.
Bullshit statistic until it is verified by independent sources. Currently, the only source for that number is Hamas and they have a great reason for exaggerating it.
In past conflicts, the death toll provided by Hamas (if you call the Ministry of Health in Gaza that) was largely accurate and didn’t differ much from independent counts conducted by the UN.
This article has an example on how it was in a conflict in 2014. There is another article that had more examples, but I cannot find it. It was from the Guardian I believe.
www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201
Great list
I feel hospitals (warcrime) were visible from satellites and independent sources covered it.
Attacking a hospital is not a warcrime if the hospital is used for military operations.
“I smelled weed”
The only sources that the hospital was being used for military operations was the IDF who is known for lying. They even showed pictures of metal objects in the same room as an MRI. Literally something you would never do because an MRI will destroy anything metal.
independent.co.uk/…/israel-gaza-al-shifa-hospital…
x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1724782542304559215?…
…mako.co.il/…/Article-b124ea2e7bfcb81027.htm
All they do is lie
www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/…/index.html
They said a calendar was a “terrorist list”. A literal calendar.
electronicintifada.net/…/need-comic-relief-watch-…
They even higher actors
dohanews.co/disinformation-experts-call-out-israe…
It is, you have the right to defend yourself if the opponent is attacking from inside. But no even if the enemy is doing a war crime by using non-combatants as protection you are not allowed to engage them in that situation. You are allowed to inspect a hospital or ambulance to make sure the enemy isn’t using it to transport or hide munitions. You are not allowed to attack anything marked with protected signs, such as the Red Cross, red crescent, or red diamond. If you as a solder break these rules, even on a direct order you are still personally responsible and might be judged in national or international courts. In practice, it might be hard to get soldiers to stand trial for these crimes. But it has happened. All my education in this has been in Swedish from the Swedish armed forces so some translations might be wrong.
Israel is not allowing anyone to to conduct outside verification, and hasn’t for literal years. They deny UN workers visas, disallow any humanitarian worker from entering or leaving Gaza ( hrw.org/…/israeli-restrictions-access-and-gaza-hu…)
but Hamas is not fighting outside verification. The UN has also repeatedly verified hamas’ death counts in previous instances.
That alone should tell you whose statistic you should be more trusting of, and it’s not israels.
Except that in this case, the UN is explicitly saying that the numbers they’re quoting cannot be verified and they’re merely cutting the numbers Hamas is giving them.
So the question is: if the IDF cannot be trusted, why should we trust the terrorists?
Netanyahu be like… “Hmm, they are going to attack but if I stop them I may still go to jail, but if I don’t then I get more power… Let me have the Kushners put me in touch with Donny to see what he’d do.”
Sure, and if you are those things its going to be hard to get enthusiastic about voting for Biden.
That’s the only difference you see? Not the extreme disproportionality of the bloodshed? Not the comparisons between civilian casualties on each side?
Hamas is like the cave-dwelling dwarf people that America made up for the middle-east to justify killing over a hundred-thousand civilians. Seriously, are we to believe that Gaza has a bunch of Gringotts vaults underneath it?
Seriously, it is clear that the bombing is not about saving hostages nor destroying Hamas. Would it surprise anyone if they found out that Israel’s far-right government is like the ex that attacks you and then punches themselves and screams like a Karen that you attacked them first… and then when asked for evidence because their wounds look self-induced, they yell… you don’t believe me you antisemitic Nazi!?!
Sure, but who is the “oppressor” and who is the “oppressed” can flip on a dime based on context.
A lot of oppressed people eventually find themselves to be the oppressor.
If you take a hard stance joining any side, you are at some point siding with an oppressor.
I don’t need to describe how horrific and oppressive Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was. But you take a hard stance siding with the Jewish people, you are siding with the oppressor in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
I don’t need to describe how horrific the situation in Gaza is, but if you take a hard stance siding with Palestine and Hamas executes a bunch of festival goers, you’re siding with the oppressor.
The only way to be anti-opression (and according to you, a real progressive), is to not take sides but take every situation as it is and support the best possible outcome for everyone.
Israel doesn’t represent every Jew that ever lived around the world.
Yes I support the Warsaw uprising.
Yes I support the dismantlement of apartheid states.
These are not conflicting stances.
If the oppressed become an oppressor my stance can change on them. Not taking the side of the oppressed while they are being oppressed is cowardly and indirectly supports the status quo/the oppressor.
I must have missed history class where the Warsaw Uprising attacked a peace festival.
Being oppressed is not a license to become a monster yourself. I refuse to condone cold blooded revenge (both Hamas and IDF).
Alright what about warcrimes committed by resistance fighters and the allied forced during ww2?
If you support those groups even though they have done bad shit then you’re a hypocrite and you should try and understand why you consider them differently.
Hamas wants to get Palestinian’s killed by Israel, that’s their goal. They want their own people to die so Israel looks bad and maybe Hamas can get Saudi Arabia to attack.
That’s worse than what the allies did.
Hamas wants hostages to do a hostage swap for Palestinians that Israel is holding hostage in their prisons.
This is true of any organisation fighting a nation state.
The IRA did hostage swaps with the British government and this was one of the reasons there is peace in northern Ireland.
theguardian.com/…/prisoner-swaps-cornerstone-nort…
Edit: looking at tavarins comment history it is most likely they are a Zionist mouthpiece. Hope they are getting paid and not doing unpaid labour ❤
Just anti terrorist.
And Hamas demanded a 4 day caesefire as part of the hostage swaps, and only offered a small number of hostages.
And I have Israeli friends who had to live under Hamas rocket fire.
So your issue is that Israel couldn’t negotiate better or at all?
And I have Palestinian friends that have lost tens of family members.
What’s there to negotiate, one side won’t give up hostages without a ceasefire that will greatly strengthen them.
Then why do you seem to support Hamas? Hamas is a cancer to Palestine.
Get rid of Hamas and Nethenyu, then maybe the sides can actually go about negotiating peace.
But here on Lemmy so many of you just scream only Israel bad, Hamas are “good freedom fighters” despite Hamas literally stating they want Israel to kill Palestinians. It’s fucking exhausting the shit you people spout.
So no ceasefire till every Palestinian is dead? IOF has a 99% civilian casualty ratio, to take out Hamas fully the civilian death toll would be massive.
A cancer is something that spreads and kills the host. Oh I’ve just described isaerl, funny that.
Resistance to oppression is always justified. You can critically support groups like Hamas because they are the only ones fighting the oppressor. If the UN was actually stopping Israel I wouldn’t need to vocally support the next best thing.
Hamas has come out and said they use tactics that put civilians in the line of fire intentionally. So no, I cannot support the disgusting terrorist group Hamas.
And it’s fucking appalling that you can.
My friend, the IOF policy to drop bombs and white phosphorus over densely populated areas (a war crime btw) puts civilians in the line of fire intentionally.
Never mind their policy to shoot any IOF soldiers and settlers who are being taken hostage.
And if Hamas would stop firing rockets from populated areas those areas wouldn’t be bombed. 9,500 rockets fired at Israel since Oct. 7th, there’s a reason Israel is attacking back.
How many dead? Oh yeah its almost like the billions poured into Israel by the US gives them an unfair advantage and allows them to be the oppressor.
Israel has bombed Gaza with the equivalent of two Hiroshima nukes. 9000 rockets is nothing.
The Hiroshima nuke killed over 100,000 people, Israel has killed 11,000. So nope, they have not bombed Gaza with the power of two Hiroshima nukes.
And because they have an advantage Hamas should be free to attempt to eradicate all the Jews?
You’re just A-ok with attempted murder and genocide then are you?
Hiroshima and Nagasaki: 15kT
Gazz sinze the 7th: 25kT
So yes the power of two nukes.
euromedmonitor.org/…/Israel-hits-Gaza-Strip-with-…
Eradicate the state not the people. Stop projecting your genocidal tendencies onto others.
Yet nowhere near the effect of two nukes. It’s almost as if comparing small arms fire to nukes is completely idiotic.
And Hamas’ goal is to eradicate the Jewish people, yet you support them.
So no, your last sentence is not what you have been stating you support.
It’s not really a bad comparison, Israel has dropped a shit load of ordanence, more than the US used in the Afghan war.
It is funny how you only care about Palestinian civilian deaths when there isn’t enough of them.
Hamas’ goal is not to eradicate the Jewish people you dolt, are you about to bring up a document written by a couple of people that is largely ignored by most and even refuted by Hamas that they follow it?
Pure Zionist playbook that one.
Yes it is you dolt. They want all Jews removed from Israel, and only a Muslim Palestine in it’s place, and they are willing to genocide the Jews to achieve that.
You support a genocidal terrorist organization.
You got a source for that?
You support being uneducated and sticking you head up bibi’s ass.
When Hamas said they will repeat the Oct 7th attacks until all of Israel is eradicated, it was all over Lemmy a week or two ago.
Now would that be Israel the state? Or is reading comprehension not a required skill for Zionist shills?
You think their racist ass dog-whistle for eradicating Israel means they are absolutely cool with all the Israeli Jews sticking around?
How stupid are you, eradicate all Israel = eradicate Israeli Jews. From the river to the sea literally means drive the Jews from the river into the sea.
Remember Hamas started this war. Same as the Arabs started the 1948 war, and started the 1967 war.
If Palestine wanted to be free, and not oppressed, maybe they shouldn’t have spent the better part of the last 75 years trying to eradicate Israel and the jews.
Uh oh your projecting again.
Bit of a jump to go from “eradicate Israel/all Israel” to “eradicate all israeli jews”.
Again Zionist playbook.
River to the sea does not mean that and either you know this or you should actually do some proper research.
The fact Israel colonised occupied land started this off. It wasn’t just an empty bit of land.
That is what it means, as stated by the Arab league who expressly invaded Israel on its formation to attempt to eradicate the Jews. That is history, you need to get your facts straight.
It’s only in recent years they’ve tried to rebrand the phrase, because their plan to eradicate the Jews failed.
And the land was not Palestine. It was part of the Ottoman empire, and has been passed from empire to empire throughout history. Everyone there displaced a previous group of peoples.
If you consider Israelis to be colonizers, then so to are the Palestinians. The Jews even have a more historical claim to the land from thousands of years ago than the Palestinians, most of whom showed up only after WW1.
So you’re holding a phrase to its meaning 100 years ago and not its current meaning. Language evolves get over it.
Just because the current resident wasn’t the original owner of a house, it does not give you the right to evict him and squat in it.
Most Palestinians were there before ww1, sounds like you are describing the European and American Jews.
No, there was a massive Arab immigration into the area following WW1 and the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Most of the current Palestinians have only been there for 100 years.
And I’m following it’s original meaning, because that is how Hamas means it. How are you so blind to that? You seem to get all your news from the Euro med Monitor, a propaganda organization with no verifiable sources.
According to both the Peel commission and the 1946 British survey, there was basically none. “Arab illegal immigration is mainly casual, temporary and seasonal,” said Peel, and the 1946 survey states ““… the expansion of the Moslem and Christian populations is due mainly to natural increase…”
The Jewish Historian Roberto Bachi estimates only about 900 Muslims per year immigrated between 1923 to 1946.
Where did the increase come from? According to the British register of Births and Deaths, it came from a natural net increase of 2.7%. (One of the highest recorded birth rates of all of the British controlled lands at 5%, and a high mortality rate of 2.3%.) In fact the estimated number of Muslims in 1947 is simply the number in the 1933 survey plus the net gain.
Peel: …unog.ch/…/C-495-M-336-1937-VI_EN.pdf
1946 Survey: Population in Palestine and the Increase in Population. British Mandate: A Survey of Palestine: Volume I
Bachi: www.cicred.org/Eng/Public…
Vital Statistics figures from The Fertility and Mortality of the Population of Palestine, By: Hinden, Rita. Sociological Review (1908-1952). Jan/Apr40, Vol. 32 Issue 1/2, p29-49.
You seem to get all your information from Israeli propaganda with no verifiable sources.
WW1 ended in 1918. You’re missing some vital years there mate.
The Ottoman empire ended in 1923, your claim was that there was a huge influx of refugees from this collapse than population of Palestine at the time.
The data doesn’t back you up.
If you want to find data that counters what I’ve posted then knock yourself out.
I said post WW1, on multiple occasions.
This was a claim you made it turned out to be false.
The claim that there was mass immigration after ww1 I don’t think can be proven because the first modern census was in 1922.
I’d love for you to provide a source for your claim and prove me wrong.
According to both the Peel commission and the 1946 British survey, there was basically none. “Arab illegal immigration is mainly casual, temporary and seasonal,” said Peel, and the 1946 survey states ““… the expansion of the Moslem and Christian populations is due mainly to natural increase…”
The Jewish Historian Roberto Bachi estimates only about 900 Muslims per year immigrated between 1923 to 1946.
Where did the increase come from? According to the British register of Births and Deaths, it came from a natural net increase of 2.7%. (One of the highest recorded birth rates of all of the British controlled lands at 5%, and a high mortality rate of 2.3%.) In fact the estimated number of Muslims in 1947 is simply the number in the 1933 survey plus the net gain.
Peel: …unog.ch/…/C-495-M-336-1937-VI_EN.pdf
1946 Survey: Population in Palestine and the Increase in Population. British Mandate: A Survey of Palestine: Volume I
Bachi: www.cicred.org/Eng/Public…
Vital Statistics figures from The Fertility and Mortality of the Population of Palestine, By: Hinden, Rita. Sociological Review (1908-1952). Jan/Apr40, Vol. 32 Issue 1/2, p29-49.
You seem to get all your information from Israeli propaganda with no verifiable sources.
At this point i support hamas uncritically because israel is an apartheid state and its stepdad, the USA, is the largest state sponsor of terror in the world.
So you support a terrorist organization attempting to eradicate all Jews, and getting their own people willingly killed in the process. Good to know.
i don’t care about the opinion of genocidal freaks such as yourself who sanction ethnic cleansing campaigns. everything you say is wrong and irrelevant
You yourself support an attempted Genocide you moron.
Imagine being this cringe
Imagine supporting a genocidal terrorist organization.
You mean the IDF?
Sure, I don’t support the IDF either. I just find your support of Hamas absolutely disgusting.
I can see that since 7 October Israel shut off electricity and water to Gaza, bombed bakeries and hospitals, forced the northern half of Gaza to evacuate to the southern half while still accosting and shooting them. I know that when Israel released the names of the so-called victims from the day Hamas breached the Gazan perimeter that a huge number of them were IDF soldiers, not civilians. I know that over 10,000 Palestinian civilians are currently dead due to the indiscriminate bombing campaign that Israel has conducted with the approval of the USA. This is what’s actually happening, not whatever imagined scenario you are conjuring.
As for Hamas, I know that its creation was partly due to support from Israel itself. I know that birthright tours are designed to conflate Judaism and Zionism and to encourage settlers to come steal ever more land from Palestinians. I know that Palestine is thoroughly occupied by Israel. The people of Gaza do not control their own border, or ports, or airspace, or anything else. Until Palestinians are uncaged and allowed some form of self-determination their efforts should be applauded as resistance against an apartheid state and the people who take up arms are freedom fighters.
Can you show me the part of the Hamas charter where they call for the eradication of all Jews? I’ve leafed through it a few times and I can’t find it.
So you support a terrorist state attempting to eradicate safe spaces for Jews outside of Israel by funding antisemitic groups in those countries, and getting Jews killed in the process. Good to know.
You’re demanding to view this as “good team” / “bad team”. Fix that first because it stops any hope for peace.
Did looking at Nazis as the bad guys stop peace?
But no I’m asking if you support critically or uncritically the allies in ww2.
If you support the allies even though they committed war crimes and you don’t at least uncritically support an oppressed peoples struggle then you are at best a hypocrite and at worst a racist.
That the festival was for peace in Gaza is an onboarding lie spread by the IDF. The festival was simply in celebration of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. The motto was “friends, love and infinite freedom”, so just about a regular rave.
Sadly mandatory: This doesn’t make it okay to slaughter and abduct the attendees.
Interesting, so do you support the oppression of women in the US, or are you against the oppression of women?
Whatever Palestine does to free themselves from oppression is justified. Israel has never been oppressed by Palestine.
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If the Jews had had a group similar to Hamas during the Holocaust, any rational person would say that’s a good thing, as it might have lessened the horrors the Nazis could put them through. So yes, if the victims of a genocide retaliate against the perpetrators of it, that is good. Learn critical thinking skills please.
Critical thinking - would a little Jewish strike group attacking German civilians make the Nazi party hold back and lessen the horrors, or would it have scared the Germans into further supporting the Nazi party and lead to an even more outright assault on Jewish people, making the horrors even worse?
It would have made it worse. Without a doubt, the Holocaust would have been even worse.
You need to be honest with yourself, is this about protecting human life, or do you just fetishize violence against people you hate?
Hate to break it to you but violence has been the solution in every successful civil rights movement.
All your rights we’re violently fought for and defended at some point in history.
Saying killing Nazis would have made the holocaust worse has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve read. How could it be any worse!?
Many German civilians actually sympathized with the Jews and helped them hide/escape.
Now imagine they hadn’t.
It could absolutely have been worse.
At some point it was violent, and at some point the violence ended.
You don’t want the violence to end, you want an excuse to indulge in your fetish for violence and feel like you’re morally right for it.
Germans sympathetic to the Jewish plight would’ve helped their neighbours and friends no matter what Jewish resistance was doing.
Do I have a fetish for violence or do I just believe that oppressed people should be able to fight for their rights like those before us did.
Are you are happy to have your rights and pull the ladder up behind you?
If you don’t allow those who’s rights are being trampled on in the most horrendous ways to fight back you condemn them.
You’re privileged af. Sympathy doesn’t just stick around when someone is killing your family.
I’d rather preserve my rights because if I lose my rights, I can do jack shit for anyone else.
Swallow this bitter pill: if Trump wins in 2024 and women and LGBT and minorities continue to lose rights, Palestinians will suffer and die more.
The difference is that you don’t support any scenario in which oppression lessens or ends. You only support scenarios in which oppression and violence get worse.
Yeah 100% you’re horny for blood and you make it everyone else’s problem.
And you’re a bootlicking fool who’s argument doesn’t even hold true to what we’ve seen in Israel.
Even after what Israel and western media have made out to be the biggest horror of our time, Israelis are still risking police violence and imprisonment to protest the injustice of Israels actions.
You might as well have lost them for as much good as you are doing for anyone else.
I support liberation you just support peace so you can sleep at night.
There can not be peace without liberation and violence is a tool to be used when every peaceful method has failed.
Violence got Irish Catholics self determination and equality in Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Violence got the civil rights movement in America to where it is now.
Violence keeps neo-nazis underground in a lot of places.
Resistance to oppression is not an end, it’s not even a means to an end. It’s a right enshrined by international law.
Liberation how? Like how Hitler liberated Germany, kill all the Jews?
Hitler did not liberate Germany, you’re projecting your genocidal views on the rest of us.
dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/…/liberation
The first fucking example:
They certainly referred to it as liberation, make no mistake you are using Nazi wordplay.
And it speaks mountains that you won’t even try the deny that killing the Jews is your agenda.
I’m literally advocating for peace, you are the one who thinks you’re pursuing a “righteous” ethnic cleansing.
Peace is a white mans word.
Injustice will continue to happen under peace, just as it has on and off for 75 years in Palestine.
Liberation is the term used by black civil rights activists in America. Liberation is the tern used by indigenous rights groups the works over. Liberation is the term used by anti-colonial movements. Liberation was the term used by the resistance in ww2.
You trying to paint someone advocating for the oppressed as a Nazi is one of the laziest piece of shit moves when you don’t do the same for those perpetrating a genocide.
If you aren’t anti-religious-fascism you aren’t a civilized person. But it seems that more and more “progressives” are falling in that category.
And that’s why we need to let the fascist religious ethnostate commit genocide
No, you’re confused. I’m against Hamas committing a genocide.
Do you really consider them progressives though and not just violent anarchist? Progressive to me means forward-thinking. If you think it is a good idea for future generations to destroy civilization and attack people then you’re not a progressive to me.
Violent anarchists are Libertarians, whom literally state their mission is to remove all government limitations at all costs.
How Libertarians avoid the anarchist label is beyond me. They’re like weird corporate anarchists, compared to the actual anarchy movement.
Progressives are people who value the freedom of religion for all people, the freedom to be who you truly are, even if that’s the opposite gender you were born as, and the advancement of human rights on topics concerning body autonomy and well anything humans rights related. We also tend to firmly believe in addressing income inequality, poverty, availability of medical benefits to everyone as a human right, and an end to monopolies and corporate malfeasance.
I think a lot of conservatives try to paint Progressives as anarchists because we riot. But they ignore the literal mission statements of the right wing which is that smaller government is better and that people should run their lives completely freely. THAT is anarchy my friend. And what that gets us is a dying planet full of pollution with infinitely rising cost of living and slavery to corporations, and we’re dangerously close to that now. You’d better hope like hell Progressives win this fight, because everything you enjoy, everything that’s good in your life, is a result of Progressive policy. Or are you actually going to sit here and argue policies like Reaganomics are a good thing despite almost 60 years of data to the contrary?
Honestly, humanity needs to get over religion as a whole. Freedom of religion ultimately leads to religious extremists attempting to force their baseless beliefs on everyone else, which is the exact scenario we find ourselves in today. That’s why instead of focusing on religious freedom, we should focus our efforts more on STEM.
NOT ONE SINGLE RELIGION holds up against even the Socratic Method. Theism is unfalsifiable and overall useless to society. Now that we have STEM, we have methodologies to help us grow our understanding of the ACTUAL nature of reality, and not some sci-fi fantasy gobbledygook!
Ah yes, the nuanced thinking of a 5 year old - everything is black and white and everyone who doesn’t agree w me 100% is evil
And we know what you do with 5 year olds who don’t agree with you (you murder them by the tens of thousands)
But it’s complicated so you just sit down and let the adults talk about it while we finish the job
Do you know what genocide is? It’s pretty much the most black and white issue there could possibly be. People who disagree with me on this ARE evil. There is actually such a thing as truth.
If it’s so black and white, then why are there numerous international councils, courts, and meetings where accusations of genocide are fiercely debated?
Because Israel is good at propaganda, and the most powerful country ever supports them. It’s not remotely debatable though, the American hegemony just wants it to be.
Ironically the same mindset held by hamas and israel.
I mean if you think apartheid south Africa, Jim crow laws and indiscriminate killing of second class citizens by the police or army are issues deserving of nuanced debate you need to take a look at yourself.
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You’d think the fact Biden is significantly trailing in most swing states would be a sign for Democrats to wake up and offer something better. Or you know, not support the ethnic state doing a genocide. As this comment shows, instead of blaming the party, it’s the voters who have the right point of view who are shamed for not bringing themselves to support the party. They’re shamed for being on a high horse instead of compromising on their values and supporting a system that causes genocides. Sometimes the Democrats convince leftists but after enough time something like this happens, then they’re cast as the enemies causing the other party to win.
You can’t win as a leftist in this situation, “oh you don’t want to support the party enabling a fascist ethnic genocide? Well it’s your fault the fascist will win then!” Eventually it’s just like fuck off. The Democrats made it clear they don’t want a candidate with an almost certain chance of beating Trump, I mean they helped him get the nomination in the first place. If Trump wins again it’s because the Democrats didn’t do the bare minimum to select a candidate who actually connects with the voters they need. Blaming the people who are actually on the right side of every issue for their failure is more of a confession.
The only person who agrees with you on every subject is: you. This is why you vote for the least worst candidate. I’m Australian though. We have our own problems but I’m trying. Is that what progressive means?
I don’t give a damn about either. They are both scums.
deek.chat
Before this conflict, I thought Biden had a decent chance at annihilating Trump.
I am not so sure anymore
If Hamas is the reason Trump gets to be a president again, perhaps we all deserve him.
pro-Palestinean != pro-Hamas
Also, Trump is an even bigger puppet for Israel, so voting him wouldn’t help either.
Of course they’re denying a deliberate manipulation of our most vulnerable group.
most vulnerable ? US it literally giving them billions vs kids
They’re denying it because it’s not true. Have you talked to gen Z? Young people actually are pro Palestine.
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I see oppressors who use a good old fashioned tiny crisis to justify mass genocide…
DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND THEY DESERVE TO BE EXTERMINATED???
there was some sort of joke calling someone a fascist here, removed by mod
I’m sure those dead children were murderous religious zealots
Yeah, but killing those children is like the one thing hamas and israel agree on right now.
I wouldn’t trust TikTok
no one with a functioning brain does. at the corporate or content level.
Which is why so many americans are obsessed with it, since the overwhelming bulk of americans are fucking idiots.
Thanks A_Random_Idiot
I may be a random idiot, but I dont have tiktok on my phone, or social media accounts.
Which makes me a cut above the rest.
Everyone’s pro-palestine. They’re just fucking people caught in the middle of some retarded bullshit. Every time someone gets killed, that entire family is probably radicalized, and they’re right to be.
Israel has unrelentingly taken the worst possible approach to the problem, having learned nothing from their own experience. They’ve made the worst possible mess of it, which is no surprise considering it was made by a bunch of people trying to make the Bible come true like dipshits.
This is why I say Hamas playing the entire world like a fucking puppet. Sure, the individual fighters are probably not happy they kicked a hornets nest but the people who planned the attack I’d be fucking shocked if they were anywhere near Gaza.
Israel’s anger is justified, the attack from Hamas was truly heinous, but holy shit Israel’s leadership acted in the most predictable manner which is horrifying the world that many who would have supported Israel earlier this year is now wondering why countries like the US is involved, especially when the fight with Russia and Ukraine is going on and having trouble getting support. I’m sure many Palestinians did not want anything to do with Hamas, but every family member killed is likely to bring another one over to the fold. The US promptly moved in behind to support Israel, and bent everything to get the US citizens in Israel home immediately, while sending over a carrier group to keep any other country from getting involved… however let US citizens who were in Gaza when all this went down remain there for a month until Egypt finally opened a corridor, citizens that probably now trust the US just a little bit less along with those that payed attention to it.
The obvious plan is to be a destabilization measure, and I fear it will certainly be that. I just hate the feeling of those that know history are doomed to watch others repeat it.
Maybe it’s not so much they’re “pro-Palestine” but anti-genocide.
I never would have thought that “anti-killing-people” would be a controversial position to take, but here we are.
My ancestors since the 1700s were part of a pacifist tradition so I’m well aware of how controversial it is lol
Does that pacifist tradition have a name, or better yet a Wikipedia page?
They were Mennonites who initially migrated largely due to increasing mandatory conscription in the Russian Empire (now Ukraine), a lot of them went to Weimar Republic then to Canada, so really good timing. In WW2 they were contentious objectors and were conscripted to civilian service, which apparently my grandpa loved.
Other side were Merchant Navy marines and got royally fucked after the war, those vets weren’t even recognized for their service until the 90s.
I think you’d be surprised how many people are pro-Palestinian liberation struggle. And for a good reason. Sometimes the liberation fight may result in war crimes which we are all against, but that doesn’t discredit the liberation struggle itself. If anything, maybe the colonisers should stop oppressing and mass murdering the people if they don’t want them to react so violently.
I don’t think an algorithm is responsible for the fact that most sane people are generally against genocide. People being pro-Palestine in this specific situation is a humanitarian response and should not be causing any amount of concern because it is the morally correct position here.
HOWEVER, the fact that we just witnessed the fucking letter to america go viral on tiktok, wherein a soul crushing amount of people publicly stated they agree with a fucking jihadist manifesto, is cause for a massive amount of concern. Tiktok definitely needs to face consequences for letting that happen. We also can’t excuse the audience for that type of behaviour. Whether it came from a deliberate propaganda campaign, or a sketchy algorithm, or just mass stupidity, audience members need to be better. If you read the letter to america and you think bin laden was right, you’re a moron, and you’re contributing to the problem.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, I can tell you from my experience as an antitheist that TikTok is heavily PRO-religion. It is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that much of the problems in the world stem from religiosity, and this long-standing war between Israel and Palestine is the best example of this.
However, TikTok works tirelessly to suppress ANY criticism of theism of any kind. Thus, those jihadists you mention are allowed to promote their extremist ideology, yet if someone like me analyzes and critiques their baseless claims while using logic, reason, fact-based evidence, and the scientific method, I get cited for bullying and hate speech. This is one of the biggest problems facing humanity today…
I think you should pay less attention to mainstream media which propped that issue up disproportionately. It wasn’t as big of a deal as many made it out to be.
But regardless of that, I don’t think one should be concerned about opinions of people and I certainly don’t think it is an issue at all if young people hate the US. It has done some of the most fucked up things in the world since the start of the last century to say the least. This may be expressed in stupid ways like sympathising for Bin Laden, but the broader sentiment of hate towards the US isn’t wrong.
The entire point of an app like TikTok is to stir stories and headlines so they get more clicks. Everything is for the algorithm.
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It might be a surprise to Americans that many people think that Israelis are evil bastards.
It might be a surprise to non-Americans how many of us think so, too, despite the narratives that Zionist organizations like AIPAC and ADL spend a lot of money to push.
The US doesn’t have any strategic benefit in propping up Israel other than doing so being weirdly important to white voters.
Incorrect. For one, Israel is our key point of contact in the middle east. Also, to your point about the white voters, it stems from historical religious ideology that some fictional magic being named “yahweh” promised the land to these people called “israelites.”
Because we have a large portion of our population that are huge fans of this horribly-written abrahamic sci-fi fantasy fairytale, they exude blind support for Israel in the hopes that it will “fulfill the end-times prophecy.” The fact that many of these loons have positions of power and decision-making highlights the absurd kakistocracy America has become…
Let’s not gloss over your first point too much. Like yeah the average American voter probably likes Israel for religious/Zionist reasons, but the American politicians and generals that want to be friends with Israel are definitely in it for the strategic value of having an ally in the Middle East. Like, you think Biden gives a shit about Zionism? Nah. He just likes the military industrial complex
Excellent point. The government uses the religious part to garner support for Israel, which empowers the military industrial complex. That may be why social medias are generally hostile to leftism and antitheism, because both undermine the foreign policy agenda that fuels our hyper-militarism.
Race has nothing to do with it. Christian Zealots want all that land to belong to Israel because they think it will start the rapture and then the Christian Armageddon.
And Jewish zealots want all that land to belong to Israel because they think they’re the only ones who have any right to it. They literally think an invisible wizard in the sky gave it to them and that anyone who says or even suggests anything to the contrary is an antisemite.
I know we have outposts in Israel keeping an eye on - as an example - Iran and shit, but why do we have to be enemies with Iran in the first place? Our situation with Israel just seems like a pointless one-way relationship that only serves to further alienate the rest of the middle east from us.
The US points fingers at Iran for everything Saudi Arabia is guilty of. And since Biden uttered a single syllable of criticism of them, they stopped selling oil in american dollars. So since we’re off the gold standard, we’ve given power over our currency to Saudi Arabia.
But to your question. Saudi Arabia decided to work with us and fuck their people. Iran wanted to give their people some dignity in exchange for what we wanted from them. The only reason we haven’t turned Iran to ash, like we did with every other country in the middle east and are continuing to do…excluding Saudi Arabia and Israel. Is because going to war with Iran means going to war with Russia and going to war with Russia means nuclear Armageddon for the entire world from WW3 happening
But now we’re sprinting toward nuclear Armageddon with what’s happening in Gaza AND Ukraine. We have Hillary making up Russiagate to thank for the bullshit happening in Ukraine…that and the US has been fucking with Russia through Ukraine for decades now.
How does the US not have any strategic interest in propping up Israel? This is insane. Israel is the biggest strategic ally of the US in the middle east, do you not know anything about the issue? They protect and fund Israel more than anyone in the world.
Yeah, the US is the only thing keeping Israel in business. They’re useful to keep an eye on Iran, because we don’t like Iran, because…?
Saudis need our weapons, and Qatar likes the money we spend to keep our increasing number of bases there. But these are purely transactional relationships that we can have with anyone.
I think Kuwait are still fans of the US.
Other than that, everyone hates us because we protect Israel, and they hate Israel. Why don’t we just join the club, and pick up an entire region of strategic allies instead of “Israel at all costs”?
Remember! Truth tellers don’t mind being questioned or scrutinized.
Liars are the ones that always rush to silence the opposition and censor everyone they disagree with.
newsweek.com/democrats-joe-biden-palestine-millen…
there’s an increasing divide between real people and the owner class when it comes to Israel. Our government treats Israel like it has an unlimited budget and can do no wrong because the realpolitik is such that they need a client state in the middle east. Regular, everyday people OTOH are being shown a war of genocide in real time from dozens of different angles and it turns out that watching it happen live invokes vastly different feelings than watching a press conference where Israel and the US congratulate themselves on establishing a daily 4 hour window where they won’t bomb civilians unless they really, really want to. It’s turning out that there actually is a number of innocent lives we’re not willing to trade for one guilty life, and that for a lot of us that number is 1. It’s turning out that we’re smart enough to realize that evacuation warnings on twitter in english are probably aren’t meant for an Arabic-speaking population that lives somewhere where the internet has been cut off and are, therefore, just Israel trying to manage its reputation in the west. We’re also human enough to realize that we wouldn’t accept someone firebombing our entire neighborhood to rubble even if one of our neighbors was evil and they sent an evacuation warning first, and that the basics of decency demand that we don’t ask Palestinians to do so either.
The thing that sunk the Vietnam war in America was embedded journalists. People who have seen war have a hard time defending it. So the war machine adapted: now you only get access to report on the war if your reporting supports the war effort itself (“winning the war”) and the effort to maintain moral authority while waging the war (“winning the hearts and minds”). Thing is, now anyone can broadcast themselves to the entire world at a moment’s notice. It was already hard to limit the reporting capabilities of 5 or 6 news orgs, now everyone you’re trying to have a war with is their own news org. Why do you think they tried to shut down the internet in Gaza almost immediately? Why now are they targeting a platform where anyone can go live and the data is out of the hands of western governments until after it’s already in the eyes and ears of western civilians? They’re trying to stem the flow of information because if we know what’s going one we’re not gonna support it.