The constraint to require a valid signing isn’t something imposed by the license on the Android code. If you want to distribute a version of Android that doesn’t check for a registered signature, that should work fine.
I mean, the Graphene guys could impose that constraint. But they don’t have to do so.
I think that there’s a larger issue of practicality, though. Stuff like F-Droid works in part because you don’t need to install an alternative firmware on your phone — it’s not hard to install an alternate app store with the stock firmware. If suddenly using a package from a developer that isn’t registered with Google requires installing an alternate firmware, that’s going to severely limit the potential userbase for that package.
Even if you can handle installing the alternate firmware, a lot of developers probably just aren’t going to bother trying to develop software without being registered.
SMillerNL@lemmy.world
on 07 Oct 22:11
nextcollapse
But if Graphene chooses not to do this, they diverge from the Android project. Which will take more time to maintain the project which will ultimately lead to more developers burning out and dropping out of the project.
It doesn’t need to be affected, but most open source projects don’t have the resources to keep going against big companies when most of their users aren’t contributing.
They already diverge by having a network permission and a bunch of other differences, and not being allowed to use Google Pay because of those differences
That might be true, I don’t know much about GrapheneOS.
But I do know that users of open source projects expecting changes to come out of thin air, and filing bugs when they don’t, is hurting the volunteers behind open source projects.
So we should all make sure to volunteer some of our own time or money to keep the projects we love going, instead of just expecting them to fix the things we dislike.
It becomes an integrity check arms race. Graphene OS devs not keen on this idea, but they may not have a choice in the near future
Attacker94@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 00:45
nextcollapse
The aosp has been in the process of being gutted, I surmise in preparation of these anti consumer measures, graphene os has its work cut out for it. I imagine that after the dust settles, consumers will have to pick between an immature Linux os or their personal preference of walled garden.
GrapheneOS wasn’t going to be affected anyway and there’s nothing for the GrapheneOS developers to change. The developer verification thing will be done by proprietary Google apps. Those apps cannot get the necessary permissions to block app installs or disable apps.
GrapheneOS won’t be affected. The developer verification thing will be handled by another app and won’t be part of the OS. That app won’t have permission to block app installs or anything like that.
ChilledPeppers@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 07 Oct 22:17
nextcollapse
Graphene is bult on top of android AOSP, which is owned by google… And of course they are fucking it over.
Check calyxos.org s recent blog posts, it is basically dying (and graphene is the same)
The pause in Calyx updates has nothing to do with Google’s fuckery, and they are not “dying.” They lost a major lead developer and decided they needed to restructure so no one would be so essential going forward.
ChilledPeppers@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 15:17
collapse
For mobile phones that works as a daily driver? Gobbling up iOS. Or gobbling up what’s becoming of Android.
I really wish we had open phones that “just work”. I’d even go with slightly quirky but functional. Unfortunately, that requires strong cooperation between hardware maker and software developers; and it will require a lot of work. But that’s not the main issue. The direction we’re headed toward is “everything need an official app”, and those will mostly only work on “official” phones made by big manufacturers.
Even today, making some bank apps work on non vanilla Android is not always straightforward, and it’s still relatively open and easy to do. The move by Google is going to tighten this even more, and I have no doubt, if they pull through, that this will go in the requirements for the “play protect” validation BS. Meaning if you want that bank app, or whatever state digital ID app (meh) to work, you’ll need a “real” Android or an iOS device. And those apps are becoming more and more mandatory (I can’t log-in to my bank’s online website without their app and proprietary 2FA…).
A niche, open-source OS, Linux or modified AOSP or whatever, will have a hard time filling that gap as things keep moving. Which is really sad.
undrwater@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 00:59
nextcollapse
GrapheneOS isn’t dying. There’s an OEM partnership in the works and they’ll release devices with support for GrapheneOS in a year or two. GrapheneOS still provides updates and while the changes have made some things harder, the project is still going strong.
ReginaPhalange@lemmy.world
on 07 Oct 23:34
collapse
Most F-Droid users are NOT custom ROMs.
This means that as long as F-Droid does not get their own developer key - it will become useless.
F-Droid is privacy focused - both dev and user, and they oppose requiring devs to essentially give up their privacy and sign the APK with their own dev key.
Now, if F-Droid is dead, GrapheneOS becomes useless. Who would want to develop apps for the 0.0001% of the population (i.e custom ROM users)
ChillPill@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 02:11
nextcollapse
This.
I am the person you are talking about. I’ve looked into graphene before and I do host some of my own services at home. I also work full time and I don’t want to spend all of my free time managing things. I use F-Droid, but I am on stock android on my pixel.
I appreciate the privacy and FOSS nature of F-Droid, but I use things like Android auto Google maps for work, I use banking apps on my phone as well. I know technically micro G and blah blah blah, but like I said: work full time.
But for such major FOSS development, we usually have to throw money at them in advance, which is the problem.
cupcakezealot@piefed.blahaj.zone
on 08 Oct 21:03
collapse
i wonder if it’s possible for fdroid or another dev to make a linux/windows/osx app which basically uses an adb connection to automatically upload and install applications
I wouldn’t count on it. I’m 100% expecting them to follow up on this in another update, blocking devices from wirelessly debugging themselves for “security” reasons.
I haven’t used revanced in a while, but Fennic + ubo + sponsor block should get you to basically the same place unless they’ve added new features since I used it last.
All APKs will require a signed developer certificate.
I doubt they will be signing keys for developers who circumvent Google’s services, or that violate their ToS.
They’re copying this scheme from Apple in Europe, when it was forced to allow other app stores.
In that case, Apple revoked certificates for apps it didn’t like, such as P2P/torrents. Mind you, these were NOT apps that were not hosted on Apple’s App Store.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Oct 22:31
collapse
I suspect this is designed to block revanced entirely. It won’t be able to install the apk it compiles or downloads, so apps won’t be able to update even if you have it installed via adb to begin with.
Revanced won’t be able to install, but you could still install manually the apk it creates. That’s what I do (not through adb though).
kernelle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 09:23
collapse
They’re doing the same thing Apple has been doing for years, I used to run a self-signing application which ran every week or so by itself.
Workarounds are going to exist plenty, it’s just a slap in the face. Especially because the Play Store is filled with malware. Apple’s strict rules are horrible for developers, but at least it’s not as riddled with malware.
Big gov and big corp are essentially the same thing. And while the people jump ship to be at the mercy of the “better side”, the elites are sharing a cocktail in secret.
The scale still remains, however one side tilted more so than the other.
LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 07 Oct 20:22
nextcollapse
Yuuuup. The state and capitalists collude against the working class. Neither one nor the other can ever be trusted to put the interests of workers first, though they will each make empty promises to do so. Then they will privilege the ruling class every time.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Oct 22:29
collapse
“big gov” can be influenced by citizens. meanwhile, “big corp” is controlled by shareholders, the average person has zero say in how the corporate is run
This is basically the same as Apple’s notarization scheme for direct app installation on iOS in the EU. I do not believe the EU has sued Apple over that yet, and they’ve had plenty of time to do so.
They usually sue if the practice doesnt stop for over a year. They do send warnings before anything official comes out FYI.
But I dont know if they want to do anything though. No one but them and Apple knows for sure.
takeda@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 07 Oct 19:42
nextcollapse
The law EU created looks like it has a loophole which allows manufacturer to prescreen side loaded apps (like what? What’s the point of sideloading then?) it is what Apple exploited and Google is going the same direction.
cley_faye@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 00:12
nextcollapse
A few months ago? Yeah, I’d be with you. Today? It’s the wet dream of the current EU leads. Closed devices, where they can run spyware without risk of it being hindered by custom OS with proper permissions and process separations? So good. For them.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 16:25
collapse
This is forced by EU regulations. I doubt Google would have introduced this on its own. If they wanted to do this, then why wait until forced?
I understand that Apple takes issue with packages that can themselves “take packages”. But historically, I don’t believe that Google has. Of course, Google also hasn’t done the registration thing historically, either.
lone_faerie@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 08 Oct 01:38
collapse
Termux is already available on the Play Store, so I imagine it won’t be an issue. Sideloading will still be possible, it just requires developers give Google their private information (which is fucking stupid) but you already have to do that to be on the Play Store, so I don’t see why Google wouldn’t verify the Termux team.
kieron115@startrek.website
on 08 Oct 01:49
nextcollapse
look at it from the pessimist’s point of view, they could have killed side loading too!
Yeah I really hope they wont ask termux packages or apps installed through termux to also be verified. Termux is on the play store but it’s not the real version. Termux devs have the actual version sideloaded.
i somehow skipped the “non-” part of the headline. thanks for the info though - when i came across this a couple of months ago, i couldn’t really think of any good use for it
I normally use ADB anyway, but wouldn’t surprise me if that becomes more locked down as well. For example, I believe Meta Quest requires a developer account with a credit card attached to even put it in developer mode, and I worry that kind of bullshit will become the norm.
You don’t need a credit card for a dev account. You do, however, need to have a “business” attached. Luckily, that business they’re asking for doesn’t need to be verified, so it can be just a random string of letters.
Still bs that you have to go through all of that just to install apps you want.
iOS is infinitely more polished than Android. It’s rather stable and at least the main notification system isn’t that bad for privacy.
Edit: I want to inquire: what exactly is wrong about my comments. Android is a piece of shit. iOS is a piece of shit. iOS is smoother because Apple can engineer the parts more smoothly. Android lets you run software. I hate them both but I need to run Termux.
mesamunefire@piefed.social
on 07 Oct 22:05
nextcollapse
Its terrible for security haha. We were able to 0 day it a couple of times without trying all that hard. So many CVEs that are repeatable. I wil admit the UI is phenominally better (in my opinion). And the official apps (as long as you dont want to do something specific) are perfect at what they do.
Android is a bit better but you can exploit it because people dont update their phones. Google is actually VERY good at keep those up to date…but if no one updates, its kinda a wash.
Again my opinion, im not too attached to either. They both suck in their own unique ways. #1 is you have to use their tool sets which is unique instead of any other computer system. Its such a hassle to keep up with as a software developer.
I was just talking about the notification system which doesn’t require something that uploads your location to Google 24/7
mesamunefire@piefed.social
on 07 Oct 22:27
collapse
ah ok. Well im not familiar with that other than push notifications, which you can set up outside of googles ecosystem….although everyone likes using firebase for some reason.
mesamunefire@piefed.social
on 07 Oct 23:01
collapse
ok.
PoolloverNathan@programming.dev
on 08 Oct 00:06
collapse
IIRC notifications can only be delivered reliably via Firebase — anything else gets paused if the phone is in Doze etc.
R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 08 Oct 00:26
nextcollapse
Really depends which spin of Android you have. I have a Nothing Phone 2 and the OS is arguably more polished than on my SO’s iPhone 14, which frequently has bugs, lag, and crashes. You can’t really generalise about Android when there are so many versions of it.
That being said I’ll probably be looking into Linux phones in the next few years because I’m tired of corporations trying to control my devices.
I’m not sure I follow, it seems like the issue you are running into is a hardware one, the software may be trying to compensate, but it seems like a performance issue first and foremost. I’m just curious if that is the case since I can’t think of another difference between you and I.
R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 08 Oct 00:51
nextcollapse
Yeah GrapheneOS is open source bro. Probably doesn’t have full compatibility with your phone if I had to guess. That’s really not a like-for-like comparison to iOS.
I wasn’t denying the fact that you’re experiencing this issue, but since this is the first I’ve heard of something this bad in my 3 years of using GrapheneOS, this does appear to be a fairly unique case.
Provided you are using an otherwise well-functioning and currently supported device (and not an emulator), and that you are using a stable release installed via an official method (and there were no install issues), your best bet would be to ask for help in one of the community chats or forums:
grapheneos.org/contact#community
You will be asked to share which device you are using though, which you did not seem comfortable doing in the post you linked to.
Unrelated, but I learned about the Android “task manager” (Running Services) from that post of yours, so thanks for sharing that.
Yeah that unfortunately seems to be the only option if you don’t want to completely reset your device or remove apps one at a time to find the culprit. And there’s no guarantee either of those will work anyway.
I’ve actually found a small number other users reporting a similar issue, though dev responses all seem to believe the issue is likely caused by apps rather than the OS. The fact that the issue is exclusive to GrapheneOS doesn’t appear to have swayed them into looking into it unfortunately.
If I were in your position I’d probably use the Auto Reboot setting so at least you don’t have to do it manually every day. It reboots after a specified number of hours without an unlock, so it’s ideal for when you’re asleep.
APKs are so goddamn huge and the OS can’t swap parts of them out of memory because it’s conpressed data and that would exponentially increase cache misses.
The fact of the matter is that Android is hacked on top of Linux and there’s endless problems because of it. One part is that there’s no task manager and system apps eat up well over half my memory which means that once I open one app, the other needs to be immediately evicted from RAM
How is the notification system better for privacy on iOS? On android you have notification groups to toggle and you can set which notifications show up on the lock screen and how much of them is visible there. The notification system is to me arguably the best designed thing on android and one of the worst on iOS
Those barely exist. When I bought my Sony 5V, it was because it was like 1 of 2 or 3 new high end models that still had both the jack and an sd card slot.
raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
on 07 Oct 22:40
nextcollapse
*had
Fuck google and every piece of shit implementing this for them.
Literally all of this is being able to run whatever software you want
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org
on 08 Oct 06:31
nextcollapse
So if Android loses that you go to the other place that also NOT lets you do that? That makes sense…
Get a fairphone, install Ubuntu touch and stop rolling over like a good little dog.
Yes, I’m just trying to point that out to the above person.
cerebralhawks@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 07 Oct 22:00
nextcollapse
And their flagship costs more than the iPhone 17 Pro but has performance closer to the iPhone 11 and they still sell your data off the back end.
Android was a fine alternative to iOS for a minute… like in 2012 with the Galaxy S3 and Jellybean. Now? I don’t get it. You pay more, you get less, all because — what? Gmail was once cool?
They took your headphone jack. They took your memory card slot. They took your back button. (Anyone remember the menu button?) Now they’re taking sideloading.
What is even the point of Android? It isn’t freedom. I see it as capitulation to Big Data.
Imo, the Android experience is far better than iOS. I have no love for either Google or Apple, but I would rather use a slower older Android phone over any iPhone.
yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 00:03
nextcollapse
A little, but that’s not a factor in this opinion. I think iOS is awful to use.
yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 00:11
collapse
I don’t disagree but android was already clunky, with less integration across devices (for better or worse), and now you can’t even sideload. What advantages does it have left?
I’m not sure where the thought that it’s clunky comes from, but the advantage to me is that I like the Android OS way more the the Apple OS. I don’t care about integration across devices because I don’t have more than one android device. Anytime I switch phones I login and everything loads in from my latest back up and it just works. I can connect to my computer with KDE connect or plug in with USB C if needed.
I’m not claiming it’s a better functioning product, I’m just saying the Android UX > Apple UX. The pixel has the advantage of flashing something like grapheneOS which no iPhones can do. Even with locking down side loading apps, there is still more freedom on Android devices than there are on iOS.
Also, I don’t like the feel of iPhones. I’m sure it’s something I would get used to, but it’s not my first choice.
yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 01:06
collapse
I agree about Graphene OS, of course.
I’ve used Android since launch and occasionally switched back and forth with iOS. One of my main complaints is in virtue of Android’s versatility, which makes it less reliable and straightforward to use — no integrated password manager, no easy wireless connection to external computers, less smooth and pleasant (and easy) to use. Honestly, I’m just lazy. I want my text messages and calls migrated to my computer automatically, screen sharing, file sharing, passwords and security codes populating instantly, and so on.
I’m the complete opposite with respect to wanting all of those apps and features built into the OS, but I understand that’s what most people seem to want, which is largely why iPhones are so popular.
To me, all of that built-in stuff is bloatware that I have to remove just so I can use whichever software I want.
I’ll take a bit of jank if it means I have the freedom to do what I want on my device (and choose a device with the specs that matter to me within my budget). That’s why so many people are upset at this news.
The Apple ecosystem is perfectly suitable for the needs you described, and it’s not something Google will be able to match due to their lack of a real competitor in the desktop OS market. Microsoft had their chance with the Windows Phone but, knowing Windows, I doubt it would ever have had the same level of polish as iOS.
You can achieve most of that via third party apps, which is where the beauty of android comes. Instead of being forced to use Google if you want the best integration or be treated as a second class citizen if you try to use a third party service, most android features can have app defaults to set, so you can use bitwarden or proton if those work better for you (and imo that makes it more versatile, not less). In terms of integrating and syncing notifications with your desktop either KDE Connect, Microsoft’s companion app or Google’s companion app should work, though it’s not going to be automatic or as in depth as Apple’s. I’m not gonna touch the smooth and easy argument as that’s something you get used to over time really with these. I find iOS super clunky to use, you find android super clunky, it’s about which one you got used to first.
cerebralhawks@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 20:47
collapse
What about it is better? Honest question, from someone who uses both.
So yeah, on Android you can do a little more with home screen customisation. It used to be a lot more — I can’t believe it took Apple how many years to figure out how to place an icon to the right of or below an open space? It’s closer now, they both steal from each other, but you can do a lot more. My Android phone is partly a cosplay prop: it’s a real-life NookPhone, from Animal Crossing. My icons are huge, they’re the ones from the game, but they open real apps, and they’re in a 3x3 grid. Definitely can’t do that on iOS. But I don’t need that on my daily driver. And many people say — and I’m inclined to agree — that when an app is on both, it’s better on iOS due to fewer hardware configurations to support.
Also, we have Delta, the emulator that backs everything up to, ironically, Google Drive. So I can show you this app on my iPhone. I can also AirDrop you any game I have. Long press, share, AirDrop, find your iPhone, you open it with the same app, you got it now. Super easy. But I can also uninstall the app, it removes all the files and whatnot. I can go into Files, double check all my games are gone. Saves, all of it. Then I reinstall it. Nothing… but as soon as I sign into Google Drive, it re-downloads everything. I just wish the emulator ran on the Mac, too — I’d have cross-device sync. Also, the emulator is Nintendo only, no PlayStation, no Sega, nothing like that.
And then the privacy issue. I think it’s wild so few people care about their private information being sold. Then again, Facebook, TikTok, and others are huge. So I might be the outlier caring about that. But I still do.
And all those things were “taken” because they followed apple’s lead who took all those things first. Losing sideload capability is yet another fallow the leader act they’re doing to be like apple.
As for more expensive, disagree there. That’s only the case if you go with high end sansung phones, but you can get android phones for much cheaper with still decent hardware, and it (currently) can do all the things apple does. You cant buy a cheaper apple 17 then the 2 models they give you. Also the hardware differences are so minor between Samsung and Apple, its laughable to call one “better” so your ppst really comes off like a fanboy talking about something you dont understand.
cerebralhawks@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 20:55
collapse
Actually, the first phone to do a lot of things was actually an Android — good and bad! The first fingerprint reader, I think may have been the Motorola Bionic? But it was like an electric razor, it had these things you roll your finger across. It was weird. Not like what we have now. Likewise, I’m pretty sure an Android phone was the first one to pull the headphone jack. It was just because Apple did it right when they brought out the AirPods that people cried foul (rightly so). Memory card? Apple never supported them (they’re too slow), and Android phones famously didn’t support them… I think the Nexus phones? Pixel too. I don’t think any Google-branded phone had a memory card slot.
More expensive does include the foldables, and you can’t say they don’t count because they exist. I wouldn’t count the diamond-crusted Android phones, those are super limited edition. But anyone can go buy a fold or a flip, so they have to be considered. Right now the top iPhone costs $2000 in the US. It’s a 2TB iPhone 17 Pro Max. Android gets higher, albeit with folds, but it does get higher, and the performance isn’t any better.
As far as Samsung specifically: the chip in the Galaxy S25 is faster than the one in the iPhone 16 Pro/Max, but it also loses more power when it throttles for getting too hot. That really only means anything in high-end gaming, though. For day-to-day usage the Samsung will clock higher. It’s only going to get 3-4 years of support though, if that, and they still sell your private information. You can’t even use Samsung Health without agreeing to let them sell your private medical data (whatever you put in it). So no, it can’t do everything an iPhone can do. It can’t keep your medical information private, which is enshrined in law in many countries, but if you agree to let them sell it, that goes out the window. Why would you give that up when you don’t have to?
Cost. You can get performant brand new phones for $200 that will last you 2+ years
OS-wide adblock. I cannot comprehend how iOS users live with out it. I see my GF using her phone and every other scroll of something is an ad.
Some other sailing-of-the-seas things that I’m not comfortable posting online about, but it saves me a lot of money on subscriptions from big corporations.
cerebralhawks@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 21:03
collapse
You got me there. I can probably get a gently used iPhone from a generation or two back and maybe get down to $300, but I dunno about $200. You’re 100% right on that one, and more to the point, mid-range Android isn’t nearly as bad as it used to be. One of the biggest secrets in mobile is that performance has plateaued.
You can only block ads OS-wide on Android if you’re rooted. AdAway (and I suppose others like it) edit the HOSTS file which trumps DNS. DNS is what iPhone users use, and what unrooted Android users use. The problem with DNS isn’t that it doesn’t work — it does — it’s that bad actors can tunnel around it. So Google, great example, the app I mean, has its own DNS. They have various reasons but what it boils down to is “we can tunnel around your ad blocker.” They definitely do this on iOS. They probably do it on Android. But editing HOSTS can beat that. And no, I don’t get ads on YouTube, either — but I do not use the app. You can, if you’re on Android and you’re rooted and you have a good HOSTS file. I can block YouTube ads with Safari and uBlock Origin (yeah, we got it now) but it’s just DNS. I will concede that the best way to browse on a phone is Firefox for Android with uBlock Origin. Us iPhone users wish we had that. We don’t. But we can get close. Really, the only ads I see are in the App Store. It’s become a cesspool of shit.
I don’t sail on my phone. I’ve tried, a few things don’t work. I have computers for that. I have a good/decent emulator that works good. As far as movies, music, shows, audiobooks, I have a Plex server and my iPhone has no problem accessing that. I bet you could use an Android phone as a Plex server though. Not that I’d want to. But you probably could. Maybe. Like with root? I dunno. But anything on my iPhone (not counting Plex stuff), I can get on your Android phone. And vice-versa. I mean, not to use your Android phone as an example, that’s kinda hostile, I mean if I have an iPhone in one hand and an Android phone in the other, I got no problem getting stuff from one to the other. Either way. Best if they’re on the same WiFi, but I can make one a hotspot in a pinch.
HarkMahlberg@kbin.earth
on 08 Oct 04:33
nextcollapse
They took your headphone jack.
Are we talking the nebulous They, the royal They, or do you mean "Android took your headphone jack?" Because uhh,
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 08 Oct 06:37
nextcollapse
google largely gave up on the pixel phones, in terms of development since pixel 5, now its just all AI invesment into to all those phones since, with slightly better features, to keep the fans happy.
I don’t need a my phone to be a ‘flagship’. I am not an influencer. I also wonder what loads are you running on a phone that you meet performance issues.
You can get an android with microSD and 3.5mm jack for 250€.
You can still run all the software you want. Adblockers, torrent clients, emulators, even… browsers! There will still be new android phones that won’t suffer those limitations. They will also be cheaper than iphones.
Don’t get me wrong android is in a bad trajectory, it’s true that’s Google has been enshitificating as much as it can get away with. It’s still light years ahead of iOS.
If anybody cares for privacy or control of their devices, saving Android, even in alternative versions/vendors, is a much more viable option than switching to iPhone.
ruplicant@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Oct 23:16
nextcollapse
this seems to be going the shittitest direction it could…fuck Google
ps: loving the apple simps coming out to claim iPhones aren’t perfect just because you can’t “sideload” lool
desmosthenes@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 02:30
nextcollapse
fuck google for spyware google play services and severe integration of them into android thiugh ^^
It had too little memory, but was clearly a step towards phone perfection. I am still bitter that Nokia hired a Microsoft loyalist who killed the Linux line … shortly before killing the whole company.
Recent AOSP repo added lines of code to Package Installer to handle enforcing restricting whether Package Installer installs an APK file or not based on dev signatures, as well as denying installation if internet isn’t available so it can’t contact Google’s servers for dev signature verification.
So this is enforced by Package Installer, which is already how Google enforces their ridiculous minimal SDK version requirement for installing APK packages, as well as for blocking app update with an APK package with mismatched signature or blocking downgrading an existing app with an APK package, which I already have bypassed via Xposed this way.
Besides, rooting gives YOU total control over your own device like when you have sudo on Linux, even if Google tries some new BS there will be a way to counter it when you have root
I used to root every phone, but by 2025 I’ve given up. Hard to unlock bootloaders, random apps (especially banking) thinking you will get hacked and stops working, the entire community around rooting and mods is like 10% of what it used to me, hardly any modern phone still gets custom roms, etc… Recently saw some statistic about custom roms - on average, around 50 phones 5-8 years ago had support for custom roms. By 2025, that number has fallen to 4.
You said it like banking apps will be happy to work with a Linux phone lol, the banks always have their interests inherently conflict with user control anyway. And rooting and getting a custom ROM (one which exists or otherwise) are two completely different things that have nothing to do with each other, and you shouldn’t support manufecturers who choose to make it difficult to unlock bootloader anyway.
By 2025, rooting still empowers you to make your own Android device however you like it to be.
Also not many people care about custom ROM these days because Android stock ROM got much better in average, so there’s much less a need for creating a brand new ROM just to get basic features. Why making a brand new ROM instead of modding the pretty good one you already have now. And root empowered ROM modding tools that are developed as Magisk module or Xposed modules still have a pretty big community, there’s a long list of pretty big repos with hundreds of modules each, and with how sophisticated Magisk and Lsposed have evolved it’s easier than ever to write your own mods
yukichigai@lemmy.sdf.org
on 08 Oct 05:50
nextcollapse
Don’t say that on XDA. Half the people there will say you don’t actually need root to do what you want and the other half will demand you justify why you specifically need root before they even entertain the idea that having full privileges on your own fucking hardware is a valid desire.
XDA is dead, and you just described one of the symptoms of a forum being dead.
That said there are still a small amount of people posting detailed posts for rooting Xperia phones, for how to flash OS updates with unlocked bootloader without losing your user data, for how to bypass carrier restrictions to get international model to work with the 5G bands in the US via build.conf edit and baseband flashing, etc. There are perks of a community being small and niche, and I guess not everyone is brained washed by Samsung’s propaganda they use to justify permanently locked bootloader on their phones lol
Right, so the issue is how many devs will stay motivated to keep developing knowing that staying unregistered may significantly reduce users’ draw…
DoucheBagMcSwag@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 14:31
collapse
He’s not wrong in a way. If ADB is overwhelmingly used and “undesirable” apps (vanced and “streaming apps”) don’t see any drop in support or usage, or if governments see a massive number using this to fly under the surveillance radar, they’ll restrict ADB too…
Likely they’ll pull what Meta did and make everyone who wants to enable “developer mode” will actually need to prove they are indeed, a developer.
Well, I’m not a dev and did that just for SideQuest access, so it’s easy enough… but yeah, for those wishing (near-)total anonymity, I see what you mean…
Baguette@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 08 Oct 02:24
nextcollapse
I hope google fails as a whole in the near future and gets dissolved once and for all. Sick and tired of tech companies trying to be sources of authority, working with authoritarian governments, and dictating what you can and can’t do.
nutsack@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 02:51
nextcollapse
I don’t imagine that paradigm going away at all anytime soon or ever
Baguette@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 08 Oct 09:47
collapse
I have hope. Last time they got hit with an anti monopoly lawsuit that should’ve forced them to sell away chrome, but unfortunately they got bailed out. Here’s hoping next time they aren’t so lucky
No they don’t. There are viable, open source alternatives for 99% of the software/services we use. The fact that people are not aware of it is already like half of the real problem.
MrScottyTay@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 10:01
nextcollapse
Say that to my banking and credit card apps (some of which don’t even have a web version for seCuRitY reasons)
explodicle@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 13:16
nextcollapse
The open source alternative to those is currently doing quite well.
VintageGenious@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 16:03
nextcollapse
What is it ?
MrScottyTay@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 21:50
nextcollapse
What the heck is the open source equivalent of being able to manage the direct debits of one of my specific current credit cards?
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I’m saying it doesn’t seem like it will matter.
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 02:41
nextcollapse
I was about to switch to android but ended up with another iPhone because of Google killing the only reasons to use android.
I like my air but I’m still waiting for what I really want. A viable Linux phone.
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org
on 08 Oct 06:27
nextcollapse
Google is building a walled garden, so I went with this other walled garden instead.
You people have zero logical consistency and I’ve seen so many such comments on reddit. I want to pick your brain and figure out how you can roll over THAT easily for corpos.
Because one walled garden does not exist yet.
Because it’s possible to get around the proposed walled garden.
Because there are android manufacturers that ship phones that are not going to be affected by this.
But no lets just promote the whole iOS and Android are 100% the same (not Apple and Google, those are the same) and give up on fighting those changes.
I’m all for supporting an alternative, however it’s done.
But between the google walled garden and the apple one, I slightly prefer the apple one for having marginally better privacy.
Though as a dev with dev accounts for both, I already can run whatever the hell I want on my own devices, so i admit to having no real skin in that game.
There are android phones outside Google’s garden that will remain outside it’s walls.
Apple’s walled garden vs Google’s future wall garden is a false dilemma.
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 22:12
collapse
I was looking at a pixel fold running grapheneOS. Google is making changes that I dislike and realistically cannot avoid so why jump ship from my existing walled garden into one that’s just now starting to from, with even worse privacy and a business model totally dependent on violating as much of your privacy as possible?
The future of graphene and other third party roms is uncertain but I needed to upgrade my phone. My screen was cracked but usable but once I remove it to replace the battery I won’t be able to reinstall the single piece of glass and by that point I’m halfway to a new phone anyway.
For now, I’m okay with my air, but I know me and Apple are on not going to be together long term. I’m pulling off the cloud and breaking up dependancies one by one so, but as far as phones go, there isn’t a viable option quite yet. It’s definitely coming but it’s not here yet.
We need to break free from both Apple AND Google. Borrowing from Google to make another rom but still being dependent on them to keep your project alive and supported is no longer an option. We need a clean break away from them.
I can foresee a phone-like pocket computer running Linux that doesn’t have cellular capabilities at all. American cell phone companies weren’t crazy about supporting windows phone a many even blocked them from joining their networks. We are starting to see the same shit with Linux phones now. But most people don’t need data everywhere. There’s wifi where people like me actually use it. And so I can see a market for a voip service for phones that lets you use them like mobile landlines. For simple texts, a network of Lora packet radios would suffice and reticulum seems to be up the task of serving that need.
Costs are increasing and our dependance on these devices are changing so not every problem we have with Linux phones will need to be solved by the time that such devices get off the ground. We have options for tomorrow.
But today, the iPhone air was fine for me.
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org
on 08 Oct 08:19
collapse
A viable Linux phone.
I am eyeing the Jolla C2. Gonna use GrapheneOS for as long as possible, but if all else fails I will use the shittiest Linux phone over this Google/Apple nightmare.
twinklefruit@lemmings.world
on 08 Oct 03:57
nextcollapse
I wish I could tie whoever made this decision to a radiator and face judgement.
App that mimics wireless debugging device and allows you to access ADB functionality locally. Widely used to perform actions that are normally unavailable on non-rooted devices. Some apps rely on functionality provided by Shizuku - for example, Canta, which allows you to delete any app, including undeletable pre-installed ones.
if scammers can open a bank account with stolen identities, i’d assume google, which is entirely run by bots without any human oversight, wouldn’t have a better detection
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au
on 08 Oct 12:33
collapse
You don’t think Google have better tech than banks?
Oh boy. You have no idea how old and bad the underlying tech that banks work on is.
Reginald_T_Biter@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 09:23
nextcollapse
I presume they are implying that the play store review process will catch compromised apps? Not likely considering how many dodgy apps have been found on play store. It’s just another controlling act.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 10:25
nextcollapse
Google is doing this to comply with EU regulations supposed to increase security. Now imagine that Google was pushing back against this instead of complying. As per usual, Lemmy would be up in arms against Google for failing to protect people’s data and not complying with our laws and culture. You’d be downvoted to oblivion for asked that question and called a corporate bootlicker.
I think these rules come from German legal culture, which traditionally has a strong need to control information exchange and processing.
the way they originally phrased it, it was seemingly because of authoritarian governments like singapore wanting to exert more control (hey google, can you revoke the certificate or doxx this dev for us?) and then they realized that they could make more money if they extended this block worldwide
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 15:44
collapse
I’m sure the EU is not the only jurisdiction demanding this sort of thing, but I doubt Singapore has the pull needed to get Google to move.
Brussels effect. Imagine Google were to still allow unverified apps in the US. Most devs would still opt for verification so as not to lose the EU market. The proportion of malware is probably going to be higher among the few remaining unverified apps. Sooner or later, some US scam victims would sue Google for failing to protect them like it protects Europeans. Hard to refute.
killeronthecorner@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 11:22
nextcollapse
The vast majority of malware isn’t delivered via play store because of the existing measures and protections they have. Same reason you see very little app-store-based malware on iOS. DISCLAIMER: YES MALWARE EXISTS ON APPLE HARDWARE PLEASE DON’T SHOUT AT ME. Talking specifically about anything installed via first party stores on both platforms.
Their main issue is this: dumb people install apks from spurious website and infect their phones. The least controllable and most pervasive factor here is the intelligence and knowledge of the user which cannot be controlled for by Google. So by eliminating the ability to exploit this entirely, it will eliminate that specific vector.
It’s a sledgehammer solution that naturally comes with many downsides like disrupting intelligent and knowledgeable users that just want to hack around with FOSS and such.
Google is relying on It being too expensive for malware creators to have to guide each individual user through adb installation and usage process just to get access to their phone. Most scammers only do that level of interaction to extract actual cash/gift cards from the target.
I am personally and directly affected by their decision in many negative ways, but I’m not so dense as to not understand why they’re doing it.
/corpodronespeak
EDIT: bots help Xitter maintain inflated usage figures which justify people’s jobs, share prices, etc. Bots are a feature, not a bug.
Wispy2891@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 12:07
nextcollapse
yes, of course malware is distributed via apk.
But what’s the difference between:
malware that is signed anonymously and then, when its signature is identified, it’s removed via play protect
malware that is signed with a stolen identity and then, when its signature is identified, it’s removed via play protect
?
Isn’t exactly the same stuff? Or there’s someone that is actually thinking that criminals will use their real ID card for the verification?
Does not change anything for malware distribution, except bother them for a dozen minutes meanwhile they “verify” their stolen ID
killeronthecorner@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 12:11
collapse
Because it can be invalidated. That’s the difference.
It’s absolutely not foolproof, but nothing is. Most actions corps take for this stuff only slows down the spread. Hackers and bad actors innovate way faster than companies can keep up with. So companies cast a wide net with their solutions. And the cycle continues.
Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 12:25
collapse
Apks can be invalidated after installation?
killeronthecorner@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 12:48
nextcollapse
No, the certificate can be invalidated preventing future installations for other users. If you already have it you’re SOOL
with the new system, you must go online to check if the license for that app is still valid or revoked. But the current system works almost the same: if there’s an internet connection play protect checks the signature against an online malware db and prevents installation.
From a couple years ago, google has the power to remotely install/uninstall any apk on your phone without your consent
The overwhelming majority of Android users don’t even know where to start to install software outside of the Play Store. If they’re even aware that it’s possible.
killeronthecorner@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 13:11
nextcollapse
Yes you’re right. If they knew, it would likely come with the knowledge that, if someone asks you to do this, you’re probably being scammed.
That’s what makes them most vulnerable to these kinds of scams.
Corporate needs to have somebody to sue in case of a policy violation. Very especially those debloated apps that float around the web - they need to ensure they have a physical person to pin the blame to in court.
brucethemoose@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 07:26
nextcollapse
Man, I miss my jailbroken iPhone 5.
It was like having your cake and eating it, and somehow its stock (much less tweaked) UI is less clunky than whatever TF Apple has done to my discount 16. Maybe it’s because I was using Android in between, but still…
Is this even legal in the EU. The majority of phones in the EU are Android phones so this effectively gives Google control over what apps can be installed to the majority of phones. I thought the Digital Markets Act was designed to prevent exactly this.
It’ll be a battle and then they’ll get knocked and so on and so forth until we get these lazy cunts out of politics and break up the fuckin tech companies.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 09:25
nextcollapse
Google will become the exact same as apple, third party stores are technically “allowed”, but requires Google’s official stamp (digital signature), it’s same with Apple. Its probably legal since Apple is already like this.
A corporation like Epic Games will be left alone since they can afford lawyers. An open source volunteer dev making a Youtube alternative client will get their certificates revoked under dubious “ToS Violation” claims and they won’t have money to sue.
MrScottyTay@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 09:58
nextcollapse
I think some recent EU proposals that make Google responsible for ensuring users can’t install malicious apps is what have caused this to happen though. I could be wrong but I think I remember hearing about that.
This is essentially Google moving to do what I always thought was Apple’s malicious compliance on the DMA, but which European courts seem to have accepted as just fine. I’m pretty miffed at Google for sinking to Apple’s level on this.
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip
on 08 Oct 09:16
nextcollapse
VintageGenious@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Oct 09:59
nextcollapse
We need better Mobile Linux / Android distros
Suavevillain@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 10:44
nextcollapse
We really need some money poured into the Linux mobile space because this is a terrible direction to go.
PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
on 08 Oct 10:55
nextcollapse
dug my pinephone out of a drawer yesterday and gave it a whirl. still pretty rough unfortunately even after updating postmarket os.
Cool being able to SSH into my phone though
Suavevillain@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 12:03
nextcollapse
I’m still hoping they can get to a state for more general users. I really want one still. I need a Linux phone doing the old sidekick designs.
PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
on 08 Oct 13:27
nextcollapse
tbh part of the rough experience for me may be down to the hardware. the ubports version of the pinephone i have is quite low power. 2GB memory and a little ARM Cortex-A53
Linux running on the desktop in 2025 is helped immensely by everything being web based. So long as you have a browser you are fine for a lot of general computing.
The phone space is ruled by apps. The phone makers and the companies developing apps prefer it this way.
Getting a banking app, or Uber or Facebook Messenger to work on a Linux phone is going to be a massive pain in the ass (ignoring the rest of the OS which is definitely not even close to useable for the general public).
I would love a Linux phone but we are so far away.
pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip
on 08 Oct 16:48
nextcollapse
The phone space is ruled by apps. The phone makers and the companies developing apps prefer it this way.
That’s true, but for everything non-free, they always end up having a perfectly working web app that will accept my money.
PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
on 08 Oct 17:19
collapse
I’m sure there will be some sort of compatibility layer available. Android Linux based after all.
Plain AOSP is already pretty brutal. An alternate OS is practically a non-starter. Phones aren’t just web browsers and SMS.
Tap-to-pay
Including transit fares
Bank apps
RCS messaging
MFA and security apps
Work profiles
Streaming media that’s not 480p
Not to mention that the camera is going to suuuuuuuuck.
Forking or improving AOSP is more viable but none of the more mainstream ROMs want to piss off Google. That’s why most LineageOS forums forbid talking about defeating Play Integrity.
squaresinger@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 11:32
nextcollapse
So now 3rd party app stores need an ADB loopback to work around that.
Not hard to do, but uselessly annoying.
Fiery@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 08 Oct 12:23
nextcollapse
Installing the third party stores would be way harder than it is right now if they do that though. No way the devs of e.g. f-droid are getting a verification on an app that bypasses Google’s new ‘safety measures’
I could imagine something like Sidequest happening on Android.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 16:16
nextcollapse
That’s only if the apps distributed are unverified. Mind, the EU already requires app stores to document the identities of devs, but there are loopholes for Small enterprises. In 2027, manufacturers need to document the identities of their suppliers. There are still exceptions for non-profit open source projects, but that’s not what Google is. Surely, no one here wants Google to avoid regulations by investing in open source.
I believe F-Droid signs the packages it distributes so that creates a painful choke point. Revoke F-Droid’s key and it will break all of F-Droid instantaneously. The only exception for F-Droid’s signing is if the build is reproducible, which is a high bar for a lot of projects, and then F-Droid will use the upstream signature.
Also, they’re trying to close the ADB loophole.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 22:38
collapse
I expect phones in the EU are going to become a lot more locked down in the next 14 months, like Samsung is already showing. But also think that Google will try its best to make developing for Android easy to get into.
Google has stopped releasing parts of android as open source and it releases some as a code dump without the modification history to make harder to use. Android forks are going to struggle to keep up.
cupcakezealot@piefed.blahaj.zone
on 08 Oct 21:01
nextcollapse
i love how google will basically destroy the worlds most popular mobile operating system just to protect youtube premium revenue
mesamunefire@piefed.social
on 08 Oct 21:13
collapse
This is the final push I needed to switch to GrapheneOS. Thanks Google! Now, if only I didn’t have to give Google money for the Pixel so I can install GrapheneOS.
threaded - newest
Google can go fuck itself.
Hopefully this will put some jet fuel into the Linux phone development.
I’m checking out Graphene OS next week and pretty pumped about it. This Google ratfucking has been just the push I need to get off Android.
And obviously I haven’t stopped telling people around me haha
Get off Android to … Android 🤪
You are of course aware that Graphene OS is affected just like any other version of Android?
I don’t see why it would need to be affected.
The constraint to require a valid signing isn’t something imposed by the license on the Android code. If you want to distribute a version of Android that doesn’t check for a registered signature, that should work fine.
I mean, the Graphene guys could impose that constraint. But they don’t have to do so.
I think that there’s a larger issue of practicality, though. Stuff like F-Droid works in part because you don’t need to install an alternative firmware on your phone — it’s not hard to install an alternate app store with the stock firmware. If suddenly using a package from a developer that isn’t registered with Google requires installing an alternate firmware, that’s going to severely limit the potential userbase for that package.
Even if you can handle installing the alternate firmware, a lot of developers probably just aren’t going to bother trying to develop software without being registered.
But if Graphene chooses not to do this, they diverge from the Android project. Which will take more time to maintain the project which will ultimately lead to more developers burning out and dropping out of the project.
It doesn’t need to be affected, but most open source projects don’t have the resources to keep going against big companies when most of their users aren’t contributing.
I would guess that it’s probably not much by way of change — theoretically, maybe just a single line patch — to cause this check not to take place.
Theoretically it might be, but it’s another patch you’ll have to maintain
They already diverge by having a network permission and a bunch of other differences, and not being allowed to use Google Pay because of those differences
That might be true, I don’t know much about GrapheneOS. But I do know that users of open source projects expecting changes to come out of thin air, and filing bugs when they don’t, is hurting the volunteers behind open source projects. So we should all make sure to volunteer some of our own time or money to keep the projects we love going, instead of just expecting them to fix the things we dislike.
Graphene could sandbox the integrity check, just like they do with the Play Store.
It becomes an integrity check arms race. Graphene OS devs not keen on this idea, but they may not have a choice in the near future
The aosp has been in the process of being gutted, I surmise in preparation of these anti consumer measures, graphene os has its work cut out for it. I imagine that after the dust settles, consumers will have to pick between an immature Linux os or their personal preference of walled garden.
GrapheneOS wasn’t going to be affected anyway and there’s nothing for the GrapheneOS developers to change. The developer verification thing will be done by proprietary Google apps. Those apps cannot get the necessary permissions to block app installs or disable apps.
I don’t think most developers who are putting their Open-Source apps on F-Droid have any minimum user threshold.
What?? I was not. I thought it was compatible, or like a fork idk… Guess I’ve got some reading to do.
Straight from the horse’s mouth. The rest of the post is a good reminder that GrapheneOS are morons.
But why would you lie about this?
GrapheneOS won’t be affected. The developer verification thing will be handled by another app and won’t be part of the OS. That app won’t have permission to block app installs or anything like that.
Graphene is bult on top of android AOSP, which is owned by google… And of course they are fucking it over.
Check calyxos.org s recent blog posts, it is basically dying (and graphene is the same)
The pause in Calyx updates has nothing to do with Google’s fuckery, and they are not “dying.” They lost a major lead developer and decided they needed to restructure so no one would be so essential going forward.
Google is messing with AOSP pixel drivers: calyxos.org/news/2025/06/11/android-16-plans/ Thats what I was referring to, but yeah, that is also a thing.
So… huh, so what’s the alternative then? I guess some other flavour of linux?
For mobile phones that works as a daily driver? Gobbling up iOS. Or gobbling up what’s becoming of Android.
I really wish we had open phones that “just work”. I’d even go with slightly quirky but functional. Unfortunately, that requires strong cooperation between hardware maker and software developers; and it will require a lot of work. But that’s not the main issue. The direction we’re headed toward is “everything need an official app”, and those will mostly only work on “official” phones made by big manufacturers.
Even today, making some bank apps work on non vanilla Android is not always straightforward, and it’s still relatively open and easy to do. The move by Google is going to tighten this even more, and I have no doubt, if they pull through, that this will go in the requirements for the “play protect” validation BS. Meaning if you want that bank app, or whatever state digital ID app (meh) to work, you’ll need a “real” Android or an iOS device. And those apps are becoming more and more mandatory (I can’t log-in to my bank’s online website without their app and proprietary 2FA…).
A niche, open-source OS, Linux or modified AOSP or whatever, will have a hard time filling that gap as things keep moving. Which is really sad.
What happened to the Open Handset Alliance?
The what?
GrapheneOS isn’t dying. There’s an OEM partnership in the works and they’ll release devices with support for GrapheneOS in a year or two. GrapheneOS still provides updates and while the changes have made some things harder, the project is still going strong.
Most F-Droid users are NOT custom ROMs.
This means that as long as F-Droid does not get their own developer key - it will become useless. F-Droid is privacy focused - both dev and user, and they oppose requiring devs to essentially give up their privacy and sign the APK with their own dev key.
Now, if F-Droid is dead, GrapheneOS becomes useless. Who would want to develop apps for the 0.0001% of the population (i.e custom ROM users)
This.
I am the person you are talking about. I’ve looked into graphene before and I do host some of my own services at home. I also work full time and I don’t want to spend all of my free time managing things. I use F-Droid, but I am on stock android on my pixel.
I appreciate the privacy and FOSS nature of F-Droid, but I use things like Android auto Google maps for work, I use banking apps on my phone as well. I know technically micro G and blah blah blah, but like I said: work full time.
Just FYI, absolutely everything you mentioned works absolutely fine OOTB on GrapheneOS with no tinkering.
GrapheneOS will be fine without F-Droid.
Google would much rather go fuck you.
they need thier AI to profit somehow, mining all your data to offeset the cost of those data centers.
Yeah, I’ll switch to absolutely anything that allows open installation of third party apps.
But for such major FOSS development, we usually have to throw money at them in advance, which is the problem.
i wonder if it’s possible for fdroid or another dev to make a linux/windows/osx app which basically uses an adb connection to automatically upload and install applications
So… Will the ADB let me do this? reVanced specially, YouTube is completely unwatchable otherwise.
Shizuku + Obtainium might still be an option.
All APKs will need a valid Google developer signature.
Doesn’t matter if it’s installed from GitHub or F-Droid, no signature, no installation.
Shizuku is installing via adb
I wouldn’t count on it. I’m 100% expecting them to follow up on this in another update, blocking devices from wirelessly debugging themselves for “security” reasons.
That’s what it sounds like.
I haven’t used revanced in a while, but Fennic + ubo + sponsor block should get you to basically the same place unless they’ve added new features since I used it last.
No separate app required.
All APKs will require a signed developer certificate.
I doubt they will be signing keys for developers who circumvent Google’s services, or that violate their ToS.
They’re copying this scheme from Apple in Europe, when it was forced to allow other app stores.
In that case, Apple revoked certificates for apps it didn’t like, such as P2P/torrents. Mind you, these were NOT apps that were not hosted on Apple’s App Store.
But ADB bypasses it.
(for now, at least)
I suspect this is designed to block revanced entirely. It won’t be able to install the apk it compiles or downloads, so apps won’t be able to update even if you have it installed via adb to begin with.
Revanced won’t be able to install, but you could still install manually the apk it creates. That’s what I do (not through adb though).
They’re doing the same thing Apple has been doing for years, I used to run a self-signing application which ran every week or so by itself.
Workarounds are going to exist plenty, it’s just a slap in the face. Especially because the Play Store is filled with malware. Apple’s strict rules are horrible for developers, but at least it’s not as riddled with malware.
Google hit by EU lawsuit in 3… 2… 1…
EU wants to read all your online communications so, no, they will not be saving you from this. This furthers that goal
Big gov and big corp are essentially the same thing. And while the people jump ship to be at the mercy of the “better side”, the elites are sharing a cocktail in secret.
The scale still remains, however one side tilted more so than the other.
Yuuuup. The state and capitalists collude against the working class. Neither one nor the other can ever be trusted to put the interests of workers first, though they will each make empty promises to do so. Then they will privilege the ruling class every time.
“big gov” can be influenced by citizens. meanwhile, “big corp” is controlled by shareholders, the average person has zero say in how the corporate is run
Not true, vanguard sends me vote notifications. Basically, vanguard will vote on the board the way the vanguard shareholders do
Luckily it’s not the same body in the EU who’s in charge of enforcing AND setting up proposals.
The EU is not a “one opinion” government body.
how convenient, GOOGLE wants all your data too.
Well, some countries in the EU are pushing for this on EU level.
<img alt="" src="https://sopuli.xyz/pictrs/image/df191210-2804-4004-a12a-cab7120f468a.webp">
This is basically the same as Apple’s notarization scheme for direct app installation on iOS in the EU. I do not believe the EU has sued Apple over that yet, and they’ve had plenty of time to do so.
They usually sue if the practice doesnt stop for over a year. They do send warnings before anything official comes out FYI.
But I dont know if they want to do anything though. No one but them and Apple knows for sure.
The law EU created looks like it has a loophole which allows manufacturer to prescreen side loaded apps (like what? What’s the point of sideloading then?) it is what Apple exploited and Google is going the same direction.
A few months ago? Yeah, I’d be with you. Today? It’s the wet dream of the current EU leads. Closed devices, where they can run spyware without risk of it being hindered by custom OS with proper permissions and process separations? So good. For them.
This is forced by EU regulations. I doubt Google would have introduced this on its own. If they wanted to do this, then why wait until forced?
How does this affect termux? Is it going to die or is it only going to be able to have packages that are from registered developers?
That’s actually a really interesting question.
I understand that Apple takes issue with packages that can themselves “take packages”. But historically, I don’t believe that Google has. Of course, Google also hasn’t done the registration thing historically, either.
Termux is already available on the Play Store, so I imagine it won’t be an issue. Sideloading will still be possible, it just requires developers give Google their private information (which is fucking stupid) but you already have to do that to be on the Play Store, so I don’t see why Google wouldn’t verify the Termux team.
look at it from the pessimist’s point of view, they could have killed side loading too!
Yeah I really hope they wont ask termux packages or apps installed through termux to also be verified. Termux is on the play store but it’s not the real version. Termux devs have the actual version sideloaded.
Ok fine…
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/433c0bc7-7fb9-4424-9c8d-da510a9e4eab.webp">
but directly installing apks on the phone should still be possible then, right… riiiight?
wireless debugging, you can connect the phone to itself via a wifi network, then send adb commands to itself. loopholes lol
Wait… what? Tell us more details…
Shizuku
i somehow skipped the “non-” part of the headline. thanks for the info though - when i came across this a couple of months ago, i couldn’t really think of any good use for it
I normally use ADB anyway, but wouldn’t surprise me if that becomes more locked down as well. For example, I believe Meta Quest requires a developer account with a credit card attached to even put it in developer mode, and I worry that kind of bullshit will become the norm.
You don’t need a credit card for a dev account. You do, however, need to have a “business” attached. Luckily, that business they’re asking for doesn’t need to be verified, so it can be just a random string of letters.
Still bs that you have to go through all of that just to install apps you want.
The only advantage Android has over iOS is being able to install [any] software.
Just about. There used to be more, but if im honest, if it works in iOS then its a decent experience most of the time.
But my custom apps makes or breaks my phone. Its so convenient.
Ill probably get a uconsole or something. Or keep my current phone til all this blows over.
iOS is infinitely more polished than Android. It’s rather stable and at least the main notification system isn’t that bad for privacy.
Edit: I want to inquire: what exactly is wrong about my comments. Android is a piece of shit. iOS is a piece of shit. iOS is smoother because Apple can engineer the parts more smoothly. Android lets you run software. I hate them both but I need to run Termux.
Its terrible for security haha. We were able to 0 day it a couple of times without trying all that hard. So many CVEs that are repeatable. I wil admit the UI is phenominally better (in my opinion). And the official apps (as long as you dont want to do something specific) are perfect at what they do.
Android is a bit better but you can exploit it because people dont update their phones. Google is actually VERY good at keep those up to date…but if no one updates, its kinda a wash.
Again my opinion, im not too attached to either. They both suck in their own unique ways. #1 is you have to use their tool sets which is unique instead of any other computer system. Its such a hassle to keep up with as a software developer.
I was just talking about the notification system which doesn’t require something that uploads your location to Google 24/7
ah ok. Well im not familiar with that other than push notifications, which you can set up outside of googles ecosystem….although everyone likes using firebase for some reason.
Yes that’s why I said “main notification system”
ok.
IIRC notifications can only be delivered reliably via Firebase — anything else gets paused if the phone is in Doze etc.
Really depends which spin of Android you have. I have a Nothing Phone 2 and the OS is arguably more polished than on my SO’s iPhone 14, which frequently has bugs, lag, and crashes. You can’t really generalise about Android when there are so many versions of it.
That being said I’ll probably be looking into Linux phones in the next few years because I’m tired of corporations trying to control my devices.
Well I’m using graphene and it’s so laggy and can’t keep more than one app open at a time, so.
What phone, you must be running one of the first ones they made graphene for
lemmy.today/post/36815604
Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see what phone you have in that post.
Could you clarify?
I didn’t include it because it doesn’t matter. 7a.
I’m not sure I follow, it seems like the issue you are running into is a hardware one, the software may be trying to compensate, but it seems like a performance issue first and foremost. I’m just curious if that is the case since I can’t think of another difference between you and I.
Its a RAM issue.
Yeah GrapheneOS is open source bro. Probably doesn’t have full compatibility with your phone if I had to guess. That’s really not a like-for-like comparison to iOS.
Also running GrapheneOS (on an older phone) and this is not something I’ve ever experienced, nor seen as an issue in the forums.
lemmy.today/post/36815604
I wasn’t denying the fact that you’re experiencing this issue, but since this is the first I’ve heard of something this bad in my 3 years of using GrapheneOS, this does appear to be a fairly unique case.
Provided you are using an otherwise well-functioning and currently supported device (and not an emulator), and that you are using a stable release installed via an official method (and there were no install issues), your best bet would be to ask for help in one of the community chats or forums: grapheneos.org/contact#community
You will be asked to share which device you are using though, which you did not seem comfortable doing in the post you linked to.
Unrelated, but I learned about the Android “task manager” (Running Services) from that post of yours, so thanks for sharing that.
That’s not a proper task manager
That’s why I put it in quotes. Being able to view the RAM usage is useful though. Best of luck with resolving your issue.
Thanks. It seems the only option is to restart the phone every day. It’s manageable.
Yeah that unfortunately seems to be the only option if you don’t want to completely reset your device or remove apps one at a time to find the culprit. And there’s no guarantee either of those will work anyway.
I’ve actually found a small number other users reporting a similar issue, though dev responses all seem to believe the issue is likely caused by apps rather than the OS. The fact that the issue is exclusive to GrapheneOS doesn’t appear to have swayed them into looking into it unfortunately.
If I were in your position I’d probably use the Auto Reboot setting so at least you don’t have to do it manually every day. It reboots after a specified number of hours without an unlock, so it’s ideal for when you’re asleep.
APKs are so goddamn huge and the OS can’t swap parts of them out of memory because it’s conpressed data and that would exponentially increase cache misses.
I guess it depends on the specific apps we use. Some can be pretty massive, but I have heaps of APKs that are <30MB, and even several that are <1MB.
Maybe a couple of large enough apps could be the issue if you always have them open, or if they are running services on your phone.
Grapheme is smooth as can be for me and great for multitasking
“It works on my machine”
The fact of the matter is that Android is hacked on top of Linux and there’s endless problems because of it. One part is that there’s no task manager and system apps eat up well over half my memory which means that once I open one app, the other needs to be immediately evicted from RAM
lemmy.today/post/36815604
It is risky to say anything positive about Apple here, true or not.
Its not really a positive thing. More like bad and worse.
I agree. But you phrased it positively, and for that you must pay with digital schmeckles.
Aw :( now I won’t be able to buy some big fake boobiez.
How is the notification system better for privacy on iOS? On android you have notification groups to toggle and you can set which notifications show up on the lock screen and how much of them is visible there. The notification system is to me arguably the best designed thing on android and one of the worst on iOS
I meant the backend sorry. Google Play services vs Apple’s stuff.
Interesting, I’m not too familiar with how they work, what makes Apple’s more privacy-friendly than Google’s?
Apple doesn’t know who is subscribed to what notification channel. Its similar to Signal’s sealed sender. Meanwhile Google does.
That’s one of the big ones. Also phones with SD card slots and headphone jacks.
If you can find one.
That’s why I like the Motorola phones. Moto G Power 2025 still has both.
Those barely exist. When I bought my Sony 5V, it was because it was like 1 of 2 or 3 new high end models that still had both the jack and an sd card slot.
*had Fuck google and every piece of shit implementing this for them.
I was able to set custom APN settings on my Pixel to bypass the tethering block that MetroPCS puts on their cheapest plan.
There is nothing in iOS that lets you do that.
I also can’t run WiFi scanners on iOS.
And Android will still have ADB sideloading. On iOS I have to run shit like Sideloadly to re-sign applications every 7 days.
If you’re a true Android fan, there is still a lot to keep you on the platform.
Literally all of this is being able to run whatever software you want
So if Android loses that you go to the other place that also NOT lets you do that? That makes sense… Get a fairphone, install Ubuntu touch and stop rolling over like a good little dog.
Did I say I’d go to IOS? Did I say that at any point?
Which part of having access to the built-in APN settings has to do with running whatever software I want?
What custom software is this?
It’s built-in.
Yes, I’m just trying to point that out to the above person.
And their flagship costs more than the iPhone 17 Pro but has performance closer to the iPhone 11 and they still sell your data off the back end.
Android was a fine alternative to iOS for a minute… like in 2012 with the Galaxy S3 and Jellybean. Now? I don’t get it. You pay more, you get less, all because — what? Gmail was once cool?
They took your headphone jack. They took your memory card slot. They took your back button. (Anyone remember the menu button?) Now they’re taking sideloading.
What is even the point of Android? It isn’t freedom. I see it as capitulation to Big Data.
Imo, the Android experience is far better than iOS. I have no love for either Google or Apple, but I would rather use a slower older Android phone over any iPhone.
Are you high?
A little, but that’s not a factor in this opinion. I think iOS is awful to use.
I don’t disagree but android was already clunky, with less integration across devices (for better or worse), and now you can’t even sideload. What advantages does it have left?
I’m not sure where the thought that it’s clunky comes from, but the advantage to me is that I like the Android OS way more the the Apple OS. I don’t care about integration across devices because I don’t have more than one android device. Anytime I switch phones I login and everything loads in from my latest back up and it just works. I can connect to my computer with KDE connect or plug in with USB C if needed.
I’m not claiming it’s a better functioning product, I’m just saying the Android UX > Apple UX. The pixel has the advantage of flashing something like grapheneOS which no iPhones can do. Even with locking down side loading apps, there is still more freedom on Android devices than there are on iOS.
Also, I don’t like the feel of iPhones. I’m sure it’s something I would get used to, but it’s not my first choice.
I agree about Graphene OS, of course.
I’ve used Android since launch and occasionally switched back and forth with iOS. One of my main complaints is in virtue of Android’s versatility, which makes it less reliable and straightforward to use — no integrated password manager, no easy wireless connection to external computers, less smooth and pleasant (and easy) to use. Honestly, I’m just lazy. I want my text messages and calls migrated to my computer automatically, screen sharing, file sharing, passwords and security codes populating instantly, and so on.
I’m the complete opposite with respect to wanting all of those apps and features built into the OS, but I understand that’s what most people seem to want, which is largely why iPhones are so popular.
To me, all of that built-in stuff is bloatware that I have to remove just so I can use whichever software I want.
I’ll take a bit of jank if it means I have the freedom to do what I want on my device (and choose a device with the specs that matter to me within my budget). That’s why so many people are upset at this news.
The Apple ecosystem is perfectly suitable for the needs you described, and it’s not something Google will be able to match due to their lack of a real competitor in the desktop OS market. Microsoft had their chance with the Windows Phone but, knowing Windows, I doubt it would ever have had the same level of polish as iOS.
You can achieve most of that via third party apps, which is where the beauty of android comes. Instead of being forced to use Google if you want the best integration or be treated as a second class citizen if you try to use a third party service, most android features can have app defaults to set, so you can use bitwarden or proton if those work better for you (and imo that makes it more versatile, not less). In terms of integrating and syncing notifications with your desktop either KDE Connect, Microsoft’s companion app or Google’s companion app should work, though it’s not going to be automatic or as in depth as Apple’s. I’m not gonna touch the smooth and easy argument as that’s something you get used to over time really with these. I find iOS super clunky to use, you find android super clunky, it’s about which one you got used to first.
What about it is better? Honest question, from someone who uses both.
So yeah, on Android you can do a little more with home screen customisation. It used to be a lot more — I can’t believe it took Apple how many years to figure out how to place an icon to the right of or below an open space? It’s closer now, they both steal from each other, but you can do a lot more. My Android phone is partly a cosplay prop: it’s a real-life NookPhone, from Animal Crossing. My icons are huge, they’re the ones from the game, but they open real apps, and they’re in a 3x3 grid. Definitely can’t do that on iOS. But I don’t need that on my daily driver. And many people say — and I’m inclined to agree — that when an app is on both, it’s better on iOS due to fewer hardware configurations to support.
Also, we have Delta, the emulator that backs everything up to, ironically, Google Drive. So I can show you this app on my iPhone. I can also AirDrop you any game I have. Long press, share, AirDrop, find your iPhone, you open it with the same app, you got it now. Super easy. But I can also uninstall the app, it removes all the files and whatnot. I can go into Files, double check all my games are gone. Saves, all of it. Then I reinstall it. Nothing… but as soon as I sign into Google Drive, it re-downloads everything. I just wish the emulator ran on the Mac, too — I’d have cross-device sync. Also, the emulator is Nintendo only, no PlayStation, no Sega, nothing like that.
And then the privacy issue. I think it’s wild so few people care about their private information being sold. Then again, Facebook, TikTok, and others are huge. So I might be the outlier caring about that. But I still do.
And all those things were “taken” because they followed apple’s lead who took all those things first. Losing sideload capability is yet another fallow the leader act they’re doing to be like apple.
As for more expensive, disagree there. That’s only the case if you go with high end sansung phones, but you can get android phones for much cheaper with still decent hardware, and it (currently) can do all the things apple does. You cant buy a cheaper apple 17 then the 2 models they give you. Also the hardware differences are so minor between Samsung and Apple, its laughable to call one “better” so your ppst really comes off like a fanboy talking about something you dont understand.
Actually, the first phone to do a lot of things was actually an Android — good and bad! The first fingerprint reader, I think may have been the Motorola Bionic? But it was like an electric razor, it had these things you roll your finger across. It was weird. Not like what we have now. Likewise, I’m pretty sure an Android phone was the first one to pull the headphone jack. It was just because Apple did it right when they brought out the AirPods that people cried foul (rightly so). Memory card? Apple never supported them (they’re too slow), and Android phones famously didn’t support them… I think the Nexus phones? Pixel too. I don’t think any Google-branded phone had a memory card slot.
More expensive does include the foldables, and you can’t say they don’t count because they exist. I wouldn’t count the diamond-crusted Android phones, those are super limited edition. But anyone can go buy a fold or a flip, so they have to be considered. Right now the top iPhone costs $2000 in the US. It’s a 2TB iPhone 17 Pro Max. Android gets higher, albeit with folds, but it does get higher, and the performance isn’t any better.
As far as Samsung specifically: the chip in the Galaxy S25 is faster than the one in the iPhone 16 Pro/Max, but it also loses more power when it throttles for getting too hot. That really only means anything in high-end gaming, though. For day-to-day usage the Samsung will clock higher. It’s only going to get 3-4 years of support though, if that, and they still sell your private information. You can’t even use Samsung Health without agreeing to let them sell your private medical data (whatever you put in it). So no, it can’t do everything an iPhone can do. It can’t keep your medical information private, which is enshrined in law in many countries, but if you agree to let them sell it, that goes out the window. Why would you give that up when you don’t have to?
Cost. You can get performant brand new phones for $200 that will last you 2+ years
OS-wide adblock. I cannot comprehend how iOS users live with out it. I see my GF using her phone and every other scroll of something is an ad.
Some other sailing-of-the-seas things that I’m not comfortable posting online about, but it saves me a lot of money on subscriptions from big corporations.
You got me there. I can probably get a gently used iPhone from a generation or two back and maybe get down to $300, but I dunno about $200. You’re 100% right on that one, and more to the point, mid-range Android isn’t nearly as bad as it used to be. One of the biggest secrets in mobile is that performance has plateaued.
You can only block ads OS-wide on Android if you’re rooted. AdAway (and I suppose others like it) edit the HOSTS file which trumps DNS. DNS is what iPhone users use, and what unrooted Android users use. The problem with DNS isn’t that it doesn’t work — it does — it’s that bad actors can tunnel around it. So Google, great example, the app I mean, has its own DNS. They have various reasons but what it boils down to is “we can tunnel around your ad blocker.” They definitely do this on iOS. They probably do it on Android. But editing HOSTS can beat that. And no, I don’t get ads on YouTube, either — but I do not use the app. You can, if you’re on Android and you’re rooted and you have a good HOSTS file. I can block YouTube ads with Safari and uBlock Origin (yeah, we got it now) but it’s just DNS. I will concede that the best way to browse on a phone is Firefox for Android with uBlock Origin. Us iPhone users wish we had that. We don’t. But we can get close. Really, the only ads I see are in the App Store. It’s become a cesspool of shit.
I don’t sail on my phone. I’ve tried, a few things don’t work. I have computers for that. I have a good/decent emulator that works good. As far as movies, music, shows, audiobooks, I have a Plex server and my iPhone has no problem accessing that. I bet you could use an Android phone as a Plex server though. Not that I’d want to. But you probably could. Maybe. Like with root? I dunno. But anything on my iPhone (not counting Plex stuff), I can get on your Android phone. And vice-versa. I mean, not to use your Android phone as an example, that’s kinda hostile, I mean if I have an iPhone in one hand and an Android phone in the other, I got no problem getting stuff from one to the other. Either way. Best if they’re on the same WiFi, but I can make one a hotspot in a pinch.
Are we talking the nebulous They, the royal They, or do you mean "Android took your headphone jack?" Because uhh,
https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/08/17/seven-years-later-apple-was-right-to-kill-off-the-35mm-headphone-jack
google largely gave up on the pixel phones, in terms of development since pixel 5, now its just all AI invesment into to all those phones since, with slightly better features, to keep the fans happy.
Delusional apple fanboy.
I don’t need a my phone to be a ‘flagship’. I am not an influencer. I also wonder what loads are you running on a phone that you meet performance issues.
You can get an android with microSD and 3.5mm jack for 250€.
You can still run all the software you want. Adblockers, torrent clients, emulators, even… browsers! There will still be new android phones that won’t suffer those limitations. They will also be cheaper than iphones.
Don’t get me wrong android is in a bad trajectory, it’s true that’s Google has been enshitificating as much as it can get away with. It’s still light years ahead of iOS.
If anybody cares for privacy or control of their devices, saving Android, even in alternative versions/vendors, is a much more viable option than switching to iPhone.
this seems to be going the shittitest direction it could…fuck Google
ps: loving the apple simps coming out to claim iPhones aren’t perfect just because you can’t “sideload” lool
fuck google for spyware google play services and severe integration of them into android thiugh ^^
Confused ape noises
So I guess I'm going to have to learn to use ADB.
Easy but annoying.
I believe side loaders for the meta quest already use it under the hood. maybe there’s potential to make a side loading app store
i bailed on android to join my family on ios, and i hate it. now i cant even go back comfortably. so… linux phones?
it would be nice
I miss my N900 every day.
It had too little memory, but was clearly a step towards phone perfection. I am still bitter that Nokia hired a Microsoft loyalist who killed the Linux line … shortly before killing the whole company.
I’m not sure why you did that. android still gives you more freedom and is still better
For now, yes. But time is running out and of course Apple is no solution. Only fools would go to apple now.
Also: Torrent clients are available on Google Play (for now, at least), Apple never allowed them.
<img alt="" src="https://feddit.org/pictrs/image/3b128fac-7a9c-4a35-b0d8-c6ac962b3e77.gif">
Thankfully I have root, I’ll just simply hook into it runtime via Xposed to bypass this nonsense.
Seriously anyone who doesn’t have root on their Android devices these days and age, well may Google have mercy on you lol
Are you certain you’ll be able to do this? Do you have more info?
Recent AOSP repo added lines of code to Package Installer to handle enforcing restricting whether Package Installer installs an APK file or not based on dev signatures, as well as denying installation if internet isn’t available so it can’t contact Google’s servers for dev signature verification.
So this is enforced by Package Installer, which is already how Google enforces their ridiculous minimal SDK version requirement for installing APK packages, as well as for blocking app update with an APK package with mismatched signature or blocking downgrading an existing app with an APK package, which I already have bypassed via Xposed this way.
Besides, rooting gives YOU total control over your own device like when you have sudo on Linux, even if Google tries some new BS there will be a way to counter it when you have root
I used to root every phone, but by 2025 I’ve given up. Hard to unlock bootloaders, random apps (especially banking) thinking you will get hacked and stops working, the entire community around rooting and mods is like 10% of what it used to me, hardly any modern phone still gets custom roms, etc… Recently saw some statistic about custom roms - on average, around 50 phones 5-8 years ago had support for custom roms. By 2025, that number has fallen to 4.
Android is not what it used to be
You said it like banking apps will be happy to work with a Linux phone lol, the banks always have their interests inherently conflict with user control anyway. And rooting and getting a custom ROM (one which exists or otherwise) are two completely different things that have nothing to do with each other, and you shouldn’t support manufecturers who choose to make it difficult to unlock bootloader anyway.
By 2025, rooting still empowers you to make your own Android device however you like it to be.
Also not many people care about custom ROM these days because Android stock ROM got much better in average, so there’s much less a need for creating a brand new ROM just to get basic features. Why making a brand new ROM instead of modding the pretty good one you already have now. And root empowered ROM modding tools that are developed as Magisk module or Xposed modules still have a pretty big community, there’s a long list of pretty big repos with hundreds of modules each, and with how sophisticated Magisk and Lsposed have evolved it’s easier than ever to write your own mods
Don’t say that on XDA. Half the people there will say you don’t actually need root to do what you want and the other half will demand you justify why you specifically need root before they even entertain the idea that having full privileges on your own fucking hardware is a valid desire.
XDA is dead, and you just described one of the symptoms of a forum being dead.
That said there are still a small amount of people posting detailed posts for rooting Xperia phones, for how to flash OS updates with unlocked bootloader without losing your user data, for how to bypass carrier restrictions to get international model to work with the 5G bands in the US via build.conf edit and baseband flashing, etc. There are perks of a community being small and niche, and I guess not everyone is brained washed by Samsung’s propaganda they use to justify permanently locked bootloader on their phones lol
The crux of the issue is not as many people will do this so app devs will be less inclined to release the good OSS
And not as many people ever even care about doing this is exactly how we got to this point.
Install with options bout to be my new best friend
Do tell? I couldn’t find that app in the Play Store
You’ll need to ADB that one
Not for long T_T
No, ADB will still allow installation of anonymous apps. All this hullabaloo is talking about non-ADB installation.
Oh word? I feel slightly better then. Still going to make it more of a pain to install ad block on my parents new devices
Right, so the issue is how many devs will stay motivated to keep developing knowing that staying unregistered may significantly reduce users’ draw…
He’s not wrong in a way. If ADB is overwhelmingly used and “undesirable” apps (vanced and “streaming apps”) don’t see any drop in support or usage, or if governments see a massive number using this to fly under the surveillance radar, they’ll restrict ADB too…
Likely they’ll pull what Meta did and make everyone who wants to enable “developer mode” will actually need to prove they are indeed, a developer.
Well, I’m not a dev and did that just for SideQuest access, so it’s easy enough… but yeah, for those wishing (near-)total anonymity, I see what you mean…
I hope google fails as a whole in the near future and gets dissolved once and for all. Sick and tired of tech companies trying to be sources of authority, working with authoritarian governments, and dictating what you can and can’t do.
I don’t imagine that paradigm going away at all anytime soon or ever
I have hope. Last time they got hit with an anti monopoly lawsuit that should’ve forced them to sell away chrome, but unfortunately they got bailed out. Here’s hoping next time they aren’t so lucky
I’ll be honest, tech got us by the balls… and they know it.
No they don’t. There are viable, open source alternatives for 99% of the software/services we use. The fact that people are not aware of it is already like half of the real problem.
Say that to my banking and credit card apps (some of which don’t even have a web version for seCuRitY reasons)
The open source alternative to those is currently doing quite well.
What is it ?
What the heck is the open source equivalent of being able to manage the direct debits of one of my specific current credit cards?
Y’all can come in here with a suggestion, too. I’m just saying we are all ears.
I’d say ‘change banks’.
For a multitude of reasons, that is a silly suggestion.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I’m saying it doesn’t seem like it will matter.
I was about to switch to android but ended up with another iPhone because of Google killing the only reasons to use android.
I like my air but I’m still waiting for what I really want. A viable Linux phone.
You people have zero logical consistency and I’ve seen so many such comments on reddit. I want to pick your brain and figure out how you can roll over THAT easily for corpos.
Or maybe “if I have to be trapped in a walled garden, why would I pick Google’s shitty one?”
It’s still less walled though, and we’re in a topic that tells people that they can simply install apps via adb to get around this.
Because one walled garden does not exist yet. Because it’s possible to get around the proposed walled garden. Because there are android manufacturers that ship phones that are not going to be affected by this.
But no lets just promote the whole iOS and Android are 100% the same (not Apple and Google, those are the same) and give up on fighting those changes.
I’m all for supporting an alternative, however it’s done.
But between the google walled garden and the apple one, I slightly prefer the apple one for having marginally better privacy.
Though as a dev with dev accounts for both, I already can run whatever the hell I want on my own devices, so i admit to having no real skin in that game.
There are android phones outside Google’s garden that will remain outside it’s walls. Apple’s walled garden vs Google’s future wall garden is a false dilemma.
Agreed
I was looking at a pixel fold running grapheneOS. Google is making changes that I dislike and realistically cannot avoid so why jump ship from my existing walled garden into one that’s just now starting to from, with even worse privacy and a business model totally dependent on violating as much of your privacy as possible?
The future of graphene and other third party roms is uncertain but I needed to upgrade my phone. My screen was cracked but usable but once I remove it to replace the battery I won’t be able to reinstall the single piece of glass and by that point I’m halfway to a new phone anyway.
For now, I’m okay with my air, but I know me and Apple are on not going to be together long term. I’m pulling off the cloud and breaking up dependancies one by one so, but as far as phones go, there isn’t a viable option quite yet. It’s definitely coming but it’s not here yet.
We need to break free from both Apple AND Google. Borrowing from Google to make another rom but still being dependent on them to keep your project alive and supported is no longer an option. We need a clean break away from them.
I can foresee a phone-like pocket computer running Linux that doesn’t have cellular capabilities at all. American cell phone companies weren’t crazy about supporting windows phone a many even blocked them from joining their networks. We are starting to see the same shit with Linux phones now. But most people don’t need data everywhere. There’s wifi where people like me actually use it. And so I can see a market for a voip service for phones that lets you use them like mobile landlines. For simple texts, a network of Lora packet radios would suffice and reticulum seems to be up the task of serving that need.
Costs are increasing and our dependance on these devices are changing so not every problem we have with Linux phones will need to be solved by the time that such devices get off the ground. We have options for tomorrow.
But today, the iPhone air was fine for me.
I am eyeing the Jolla C2. Gonna use GrapheneOS for as long as possible, but if all else fails I will use the shittiest Linux phone over this Google/Apple nightmare.
I wish I could tie whoever made this decision to a radiator and face judgement.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundar_Pichai
Calling it already, one of the most popular apps around will be a wrapper around ADB in order to install new apps - maybe Shizuku or Sui?
Shizuku?
EDIT: I didn’t notice it was mentioned already. XDD
If Fdriod could incorporate this it will not affect them.
F-Droid will probably get revoked if they allow apps like Newpipe.
Install fdroid ttaditionally via ADB and then fdroid will do the remaining?
App that mimics wireless debugging device and allows you to access ADB functionality locally. Widely used to perform actions that are normally unavailable on non-rooted devices. Some apps rely on functionality provided by Shizuku - for example, Canta, which allows you to delete any app, including undeletable pre-installed ones.
Yeah, I know. I didn’t notice. Sorry.
Hope they would be sued in America and Europe for it. I can’t believe it will be OK… And can’t believe they clearly think it will be.
<img alt="screenshot of official announcement with suspiciously low upvotes" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8be11895-eedc-483c-9c2b-6410ee0db8fd.png">
Found the 91 Google employees
Can someone “redpilled by corporate” explain me how this policy actually increase security?
It’s trivial for a malware developer to pay $25 with a stolen card and a stolen id
Look at the “verified” bots on xitter, they didn’t solve the bots problem, rather just monetized it
It’s a lie. Google just wants control.
I would assume that you won’t just be able to register with a stolen id and stolen card.
if scammers can open a bank account with stolen identities, i’d assume google, which is entirely run by bots without any human oversight, wouldn’t have a better detection
You don’t think Google have better tech than banks?
Oh boy. You have no idea how old and bad the underlying tech that banks work on is.
I presume they are implying that the play store review process will catch compromised apps? Not likely considering how many dodgy apps have been found on play store. It’s just another controlling act.
Google is doing this to comply with EU regulations supposed to increase security. Now imagine that Google was pushing back against this instead of complying. As per usual, Lemmy would be up in arms against Google for failing to protect people’s data and not complying with our laws and culture. You’d be downvoted to oblivion for asked that question and called a corporate bootlicker.
I think these rules come from German legal culture, which traditionally has a strong need to control information exchange and processing.
the way they originally phrased it, it was seemingly because of authoritarian governments like singapore wanting to exert more control (hey google, can you revoke the certificate or doxx this dev for us?) and then they realized that they could make more money if they extended this block worldwide
I’m sure the EU is not the only jurisdiction demanding this sort of thing, but I doubt Singapore has the pull needed to get Google to move.
Brussels effect. Imagine Google were to still allow unverified apps in the US. Most devs would still opt for verification so as not to lose the EU market. The proportion of malware is probably going to be higher among the few remaining unverified apps. Sooner or later, some US scam victims would sue Google for failing to protect them like it protects Europeans. Hard to refute.
The vast majority of malware isn’t delivered via play store because of the existing measures and protections they have. Same reason you see very little app-store-based malware on iOS. DISCLAIMER: YES MALWARE EXISTS ON APPLE HARDWARE PLEASE DON’T SHOUT AT ME. Talking specifically about anything installed via first party stores on both platforms.
Their main issue is this: dumb people install apks from spurious website and infect their phones. The least controllable and most pervasive factor here is the intelligence and knowledge of the user which cannot be controlled for by Google. So by eliminating the ability to exploit this entirely, it will eliminate that specific vector.
It’s a sledgehammer solution that naturally comes with many downsides like disrupting intelligent and knowledgeable users that just want to hack around with FOSS and such.
Google is relying on It being too expensive for malware creators to have to guide each individual user through adb installation and usage process just to get access to their phone. Most scammers only do that level of interaction to extract actual cash/gift cards from the target.
I am personally and directly affected by their decision in many negative ways, but I’m not so dense as to not understand why they’re doing it.
/corpodronespeak
EDIT: bots help Xitter maintain inflated usage figures which justify people’s jobs, share prices, etc. Bots are a feature, not a bug.
yes, of course malware is distributed via apk.
But what’s the difference between:
?
Isn’t exactly the same stuff? Or there’s someone that is actually thinking that criminals will use their real ID card for the verification?
Does not change anything for malware distribution, except bother them for a dozen minutes meanwhile they “verify” their stolen ID
Because it can be invalidated. That’s the difference.
It’s absolutely not foolproof, but nothing is. Most actions corps take for this stuff only slows down the spread. Hackers and bad actors innovate way faster than companies can keep up with. So companies cast a wide net with their solutions. And the cycle continues.
Apks can be invalidated after installation?
No, the certificate can be invalidated preventing future installations for other users. If you already have it you’re SOOL
with the new system, you must go online to check if the license for that app is still valid or revoked. But the current system works almost the same: if there’s an internet connection play protect checks the signature against an online malware db and prevents installation.
From a couple years ago, google has the power to remotely install/uninstall any apk on your phone without your consent
No they don’t. Most people don’t even know what an apk even is.
Most people don’t know what a bootloader is. They still turn their devices on and off every day.
This whole conversation is about adding obstacles to prevent non technical users from doing things they don’t fully understand.
The overwhelming majority of Android users don’t even know where to start to install software outside of the Play Store. If they’re even aware that it’s possible.
Yes you’re right. If they knew, it would likely come with the knowledge that, if someone asks you to do this, you’re probably being scammed.
That’s what makes them most vulnerable to these kinds of scams.
It’s actually an incredibly common way that they are infected, especially in places where WhatsApp is the default communication platform
It’s not about stopping malware; it’s about being able to act on malware.
Making a new account with a new phone number and new credit card is a minor barrier to entry.
That said, it’s a cool story, but I think they’re looking to stop vanced style patching.
Corporate needs to have somebody to sue in case of a policy violation. Very especially those debloated apps that float around the web - they need to ensure they have a physical person to pin the blame to in court.
Man, I miss my jailbroken iPhone 5.
It was like having your cake and eating it, and somehow its stock (much less tweaked) UI is less clunky than whatever TF Apple has done to my discount 16. Maybe it’s because I was using Android in between, but still…
The UI in iOS 26 looks like Windows Aero on Crack, and not in a good way…
Is this even legal in the EU. The majority of phones in the EU are Android phones so this effectively gives Google control over what apps can be installed to the majority of phones. I thought the Digital Markets Act was designed to prevent exactly this.
It’ll be a battle and then they’ll get knocked and so on and so forth until we get these lazy cunts out of politics and break up the fuckin tech companies.
Google will become the exact same as apple, third party stores are technically “allowed”, but requires Google’s official stamp (digital signature), it’s same with Apple. Its probably legal since Apple is already like this.
A corporation like Epic Games will be left alone since they can afford lawyers. An open source volunteer dev making a Youtube alternative client will get their certificates revoked under dubious “ToS Violation” claims and they won’t have money to sue.
I think some recent EU proposals that make Google responsible for ensuring users can’t install malicious apps is what have caused this to happen though. I could be wrong but I think I remember hearing about that.
This is essentially Google moving to do what I always thought was Apple’s malicious compliance on the DMA, but which European courts seem to have accepted as just fine. I’m pretty miffed at Google for sinking to Apple’s level on this.
Free market and openness my ass.
ThIs ApPLicAtIoN iS DaNgErOuS
We need better Mobile Linux / Android distros
We really need some money poured into the Linux mobile space because this is a terrible direction to go.
dug my pinephone out of a drawer yesterday and gave it a whirl. still pretty rough unfortunately even after updating postmarket os.
Cool being able to SSH into my phone though
I’m still hoping they can get to a state for more general users. I really want one still. I need a Linux phone doing the old sidekick designs.
tbh part of the rough experience for me may be down to the hardware. the ubports version of the pinephone i have is quite low power. 2GB memory and a little ARM Cortex-A53
tis sluggish
The main issue will be application support.
Linux running on the desktop in 2025 is helped immensely by everything being web based. So long as you have a browser you are fine for a lot of general computing.
The phone space is ruled by apps. The phone makers and the companies developing apps prefer it this way.
Getting a banking app, or Uber or Facebook Messenger to work on a Linux phone is going to be a massive pain in the ass (ignoring the rest of the OS which is definitely not even close to useable for the general public).
I would love a Linux phone but we are so far away.
That’s true, but for everything non-free, they always end up having a perfectly working web app that will accept my money.
I’m sure there will be some sort of compatibility layer available. Android Linux based after all.
There already is! I had a Furi Labs FLX1 for a while and it was able to run Android apps surprisingly via Andromeda (their fork of Waydroid).
I thought you could do that on Android?
Plain AOSP is already pretty brutal. An alternate OS is practically a non-starter. Phones aren’t just web browsers and SMS.
Not to mention that the camera is going to suuuuuuuuck.
Forking or improving AOSP is more viable but none of the more mainstream ROMs want to piss off Google. That’s why most LineageOS forums forbid talking about defeating Play Integrity.
So now 3rd party app stores need an ADB loopback to work around that.
Not hard to do, but uselessly annoying.
Installing the third party stores would be way harder than it is right now if they do that though. No way the devs of e.g. f-droid are getting a verification on an app that bypasses Google’s new ‘safety measures’
I could imagine something like Sidequest happening on Android.
That’s only if the apps distributed are unverified. Mind, the EU already requires app stores to document the identities of devs, but there are loopholes for Small enterprises. In 2027, manufacturers need to document the identities of their suppliers. There are still exceptions for non-profit open source projects, but that’s not what Google is. Surely, no one here wants Google to avoid regulations by investing in open source.
I believe F-Droid signs the packages it distributes so that creates a painful choke point. Revoke F-Droid’s key and it will break all of F-Droid instantaneously. The only exception for F-Droid’s signing is if the build is reproducible, which is a high bar for a lot of projects, and then F-Droid will use the upstream signature.
Also, they’re trying to close the ADB loophole.
I expect phones in the EU are going to become a lot more locked down in the next 14 months, like Samsung is already showing. But also think that Google will try its best to make developing for Android easy to get into.
I think you can already do that with shizuku and dome fdroid clients. It also makes using 3rd party appstores more convenient just in general.
Get fucked
What did you expect? Did you think we were living in a fairy tale and could build a better world?
Hold up, why all this crap… when most of the malware/infostealers is on Google Playstore… and googe itself is doing it.
It’s called “eliminating competition”.
Ok, fuck this crap. This was the main reason to prefer Android over iOS. Going to start trying out some of the FOSS Android forks
Another example of Embrace, extend, and extinguish
Google has stopped releasing parts of android as open source and it releases some as a code dump without the modification history to make harder to use. Android forks are going to struggle to keep up.
i love how google will basically destroy the worlds most popular mobile operating system just to protect youtube premium revenue
thats my theory too.
This is the final push I needed to switch to GrapheneOS. Thanks Google! Now, if only I didn’t have to give Google money for the Pixel so I can install GrapheneOS.
This will kill the FOSS app ecosystem regardless. Android forks of any form should be abandoned. GrapheneOS can be a decent stopgap though.