I swear I didn’t asked for this bloated fucking mess. The whole internet could’ve been optimized to 10% of whatever it is today but we’re trying to run ReactJS now in the backend instead.
I have VPS’s in Quebec, running on mostly hydroelectric power, in a place without water supply concerns for locals, in a cooler climate. OVH in this case, but there are others. Can’t control what random websites are hosted on, but can avoid giving money to this crazyness.
EncryptKeeper@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 12:10
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Ah yes, just stop using the internet.
DeceasedPassenger@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 12:28
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I haven’t given a god damn dime to amazon since 2020, ever since I learned about the piss bottles. I’ve asked (and assisted) others to do the same. What else do you expect someone to do? Speak for yourself asshole.
Are you familiar with AWS? Amazon Web services. Many, many, websites use them and I don’t think there’s a way to tell as a user.
Like, you go to a website and their images are hosted on s3 (an aws service) and their database is on RDS (also AWS), and their whole backend application is using eks or ecs or whatever.
That’s extremely common. Companies don’t run their own hardware anymore very often.
DeceasedPassenger@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 14:07
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I know. I’m not a web dev nor do I know anyone who is to convince otherwise, to use other services. AWS dominance is undeniably huge. If you know a way to combat that (alternative infrastructure) I would be happy to hear it, and I will share that alongside what I already tell people. Again I’m not well-versed in that space, but my understanding is that AWS is essentially the only full-stack solution that’s also highly scalable. Open to correction if I’m wrong here.
Google and Microsoft have competing services, but those companies also suck. I think they’re less popular, but I don’t know much about why.
I’m not aware of any smaller competitors, though some probably exist. It would be a big risk for a company to go with a new provider. There’s a lot of library support for the big players, for one thing. If you want your python application to talk to AWS, the boto library is just right there.
You could run your own hardware somewhere, but that has its own host of problems, if you’ll pardon the pun. I worked somewhere a long time ago that had its own servers in a data center. The place got flooded in a big storm and we were down for a couple days.
DeceasedPassenger@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:50
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Agreed, MS and Google are pretty much on the same plane with regards to company ethics.
Makes sense that it becomes a serious trade-off with usability the more a company tries to DIY. The risk aspect is certainly hard to get around. Seems that a solution to this problem would have to be long-term. Any company that has competed with AWS in the past, afaik, has been purchased and absorbed. It would likely require the creation of a nonprofit with a guiding directive to prioritize keeping the organization independent and never being sold. But I’ve seen that sort of thing fall apart and go off-mission in other industries too.
Considering the above, the only other thing I can think of is a regulating body declaring AWS as a monopoly and forcing them to split. The chances of that happening in the current administration are probably near zero.
I never understood the popularity of AWS. It’s much cheaper using VPSs and even dedicated servers sometimes. I’ve worked on very cost-sensitive projects where I rolled our own highly-available k8s and postgres clusters on dedicated servers and VPSs and saved the company a shit load of money. Only used the “cloud” to store backups (Backblaze). There’s tons of other options other than major “cloud” providers, and they’re often much cheaper.
mechoman444@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 12:51
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I’m sure you don’t actually understand how this functions but the reason that products aren’t really available on storefronts anymore is because they’re sold on Amazon.
I have somehow avoided Amazon all these years. It’s easy for me, nothing I require is connected to Amazon.
I’m sure there are aspects of the business that I can’t avoid that I don’t even know I’m being dragged into, but I don’t spend my money with them.
Anytime I can’t find something somewhere else, I just move on and forget about it.
The only times I’ve ever been bummed about it is when I’m working on some small project and the parts are half the price on Amazon. Most recently, it was parts for an arcade machine.
If I’m being inconvenienced, I don’t even know it.
I walked away originally when they acquired cdnow.com. I last visited the site when it began redirecting to Amazon.
Yeah, seems like a desert isn’t the best place to build something where cooling is a critical factor! Or building something that uses massive amounts of chemical treated water for cooling in a place that has had water scarcity concerns for generations, now.
I don’t understand why they even need to use up water. Water cooling does not require you to evaporate the water. You can just keep it as a closed system and reuse the water.
If nuclear power plants can manage it which would be easy for a server farm
BakerBagel@midwest.social
on 07 Aug 14:12
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Because closed loops are more expensive in the short term, making it a non-starter
Closed loop watercooling is really just air cooling with extra steps. The water is heated by the devices and cooled by a large radiator with fans. Or it’s cooled with a chiller which in turn is cooled by a radiator with fans.
Replacing the water is the most effective (yet wasteful) way to remove the heat.
To a point, yes. While you’re still using air to cool the water, I think it’s still a little more efficient than blindly keeping the server room at a low-ish temperature.
Keeping the server room cool is just using an air conditioner which is cooled by a radiator with a fan, and then using that cooled air to cool another radiator with a fan. Every step is a loss of efficiency.
The main advantage of water loops is that you get to use a different form factor for the radiator and fan by moving it away from the source of heat and aren’t limited by the case dimensions.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Aug 17:15
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I once saw a spa that was using a liquid cooled bank of computers to heat their pool water. It involves a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger so they’re not pumping chlorinated pool water through their servers but…I wish we did more of that. Server farms are a source of heat, lots of other things need heat.
dyathinkhesaurus@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 11:59
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It’s not their water, so they don’t care.
When it finally runs out, they’ll just go somewhere else.
Dogiedog64@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 12:13
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I mean, sure, that’s their plan, but you can only do that so many times before you run out of money, materials, water, or places to build. If ever there was proof that there’s no forward thinking in this tech bubble, this would be it.
SARGE@startrek.website
on 07 Aug 13:45
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you can only do that so many times before you run out of money, materials, water, or places to build
That’s someone else’s problem. Hopefully someone after they’re dead, but as long as they have their golden parachute, who cares?
True but this isn’t specific to the tech bubble. It’s a feature of capitalism. Competition forces firms to adopt shorter term horizons. If a firm has significant profit to make by focusing on the short term and it does not, its competitor would. If the profit possoble within this period is significant, having the competitor collect it runs the risk of the current firm failing, or the competitor accumulating enough for hostile takeover, among other failures. That would stop the current firm onwer from collecting profits in the future. Even if focusing on the long term is more profitable over time, firms may not survive in a competitive environment to realize long term profits. These are some of the fundamental processes that drive firms into short term horizons. With liquid asset markets there are even more immediate processes driving firms into short term planning.
Add to that planning based mainly on prices, which don’t capture a ton of reality and you get situations like a water hungry datacenter in the desert, cause the price of water does not capture its long term availability for example.
All of this has happened in the past, even a century ago. It’s happened and keeps happening in other industries too. For example the fossil fuel industry.
They building a new data center in the bay area California that is struggling for water all the time. But its OK they are building it upstream towards the reservoir so they can get first dibs
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 14:33
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I wonder if they could use sea water for that. I know salt is corrosive, but surely there’s a reasonable solution there.
SmoothLiquidation@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 14:43
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I remember there was talks about a floating data center in the ocean.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 14:47
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I’d much rather have underwater data centers. A floating data center seems like a massive eyesore and you’d need to run cables out there.
If you build one underground near the shore and then channel water in from the ocean, it should be much less intrusive.
SmoothLiquidation@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 14:50
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It still has problems. Mainly you need to get power out there and the heated exhaust water can mess with the ecosystem.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 15:15
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Right, by “near the shore” I meant a land-based facility with access to sea water. Heated exhaust water could also be used in a local desalinization plant to produce fresh water for maximum efficiency.
chiliedogg@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:02
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It’s not like they’re dunking the electronics in the water. They just need to filter it enough it doesn’t clog up the system and run it in a closed loop.
If I can have a closed loop with a reservoir for my home PC, motherfucking Amazon can build a water storage tank for their cooling.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 15:17
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Sure, but that means more space to allow for cooling the water so it can be reused. If you can cycle it w/ “unlimited” cool water from the ocean, it can be a lot more compact, and heated waste water could potentially be used by a desalinization plant to improve freshwater output.
inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:37
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But that would require large capital investments that negatively impacts earnings reports.
Much better to screw over the people by taking their water for free.
Nuclear plants do that with lakes, they suck in cool water from one end and dump out the hot water at the other so that it can cool down by the time it circulates back in
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 08 Aug 05:03
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seawater would probably corrode whatever storage system they have in there overtime, all that biological material, chemicals and gunk.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Aug 15:58
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Sure. A lot of that can be filtered out, but there will be corrosion with whatever heat transfer system they use. However, seawater is free, pretty consistently cool temperature (esp. in the Pacific), and is plentiful, so replacing some heat exchange components shouldn’t be overly burdensome.
Its an amazon data center in Gilroy, been in the works for a long time but they recently put up the development signs so I think now that they ran the new water lines a like a year ago they are ready to break ground
They don’t even have enough water for the garlic anymore, and that’s the crop equivalent of a fucking lizard :(
RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world
on 08 Aug 18:12
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So that one’s not too worried about the tectonic stability thing, then.
kibiz0r@midwest.social
on 07 Aug 13:40
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Low humidity. Good for longevity of electronics, and makes the evaporative cooling more efficient. So it’s a matter of the benefits of that vs. the cost of the added heat.
chiliedogg@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 14:59
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Land is also relatively cheap.
UltraMagnus0001@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:17
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Farms, now data centers? Let’s add a Nestlé water or coca Cola factory.
Said in another comment, our deserts are tectonically stable and free of natural disasters. If you want redundant DCs, picking one on the desert is a good bet.
Yeah, all we got is man made tragedy of the commons disasters where the data centers deplete not only the water for humans, but the water for the data centers. Poof, no more data.
…in the time chosen. If the planet can get down to 13c overnight, I bet Skippy’s relatively smaller data centre can get down sooner with a proper loop.
I know it’s hard finding a good spot of flat land now that the choicest spots have all been fracked for methane and are no longer stable - thanks, ‘green’ energy shysters! - but what else were ya gonna do with all that space under the solar panels?
By-product? Free showers for the homeless with that waste heat. Yay?
Evaporative cooling needs less water mass and less surface area for the same cooling effect. They could simply use bigger heat sinks outside the building and have a bigger water cooling system to make it closed loop, but they don’t want to do that.
Fredselfish@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:56
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Then why the fuck do they keep wanting build them in the middle of the desert then?
StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 16:00
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Cheap land, dry air is good for evaporative cooling, and many arid areas have a surprising amount of ground water. It ultimately comes down to being the cheapest option, not the smartest or best option.
Fredselfish@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 16:19
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So how long to the billionaires have that entire city council replaced with people who are in their pocket and will vote for its passing?
StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 16:21
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In the states? 1-2 years tops.
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 16:35
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Trump will have them arrested on terrorism charges in a month…after a totally coincidental delivery of a golden idol to trump, from bezos
edit
I said this as a joke, and later found Apple recently gifted Trump a golden idol.
God I miss when satire was silliness, and not psychic future sight.
Vandals_handle@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 21:32
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Externalization of cost, the environment and community bears the cost instead of the corporation. Privatize the profits, externalize the costs.
America’s deserts are tectonically stable and don’t experience natural disasters. If you want your data and/or compute running in two regions for redundancy, somewhere in the desert is a good choice for one of your DCs.
Vandals_handle@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 21:38
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Maybe in AZ or other states but CA deserts are not tectonically stable.
I know. Was looking for a term to separate the two areas. Not like the San Andreas fault is stable!
How could I have dialed that in better?
Vandals_handle@lemmy.world
on 09 Aug 03:20
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Probably some ecological or geologic zone that would be precise but I don’t know.
Fidgetting@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 23:50
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Two more reasons not yet mentioned:
It is close to a population center (Phoenix) keeping latency low to customers. Getting customers off the public Internet quickly and into your private network fast is best for a lot of reasons.
Cheap and abundant solar power. Data centers are extremely power hungry and power lines are expensive so companies like Amazon almost always secure abundant power rights before building. Google built their first data center in The Dalles Oregon because an aluminum smelter had gone belly up and left a bunch of capacity unclaimed in a local hydroelectric dam.
Then local governments need be strung up. Tar and feathered and hung from the largest tree in the state.
tiredofsametab@fedia.io
on 08 Aug 01:16
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Fewer hurricanes out there, and other natural disasters as well. I don't know how tuscon is seismically, but otherwise it has a lot of lowere risks from nature, probably
Right, that’s what they said. For a closed loop, because it’s less “effective”, you need a much larger system. It’s more expensive to build and requires a much larger footprint and corporations like Amazon would rather save a penny than do anything to reduce their harm.
innermachine@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:52
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They absolutely can run closed loop. It does not cool as well as evaporative cooling (it takes MASSIVE heat to evaporate water) but it can work if designed right with large system capacity and big radiators. Trouble is it’s likely more expensive than pissing away the water and we know all that matters is bottom line.
inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:34
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Good. This whole thing was stupid when the local government and utilities keep telling us little people to conserve water because, well we’re in a 113 degree desert with a complete lack of water due to climate change and they wanted to do this bullshit.
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world
on 08 Aug 01:10
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Have you tried collecting the condensation off the glass? If you use that to wash your armpits you can go an extra day before you shower so Jeff Bezos can make numbers go up in his theoretical money.
Edit:
“Comical” thought. There is less than $2.5 trillion in cash circulating.
That wouldn’t cover 20 people net worth in a country of near 350,000,000.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 08 Aug 06:53
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Bezos has tens of billions, if not hundreds. He could support development of heat-resistant microchips, which would have countless applications.
Saledovil@sh.itjust.works
on 08 Aug 07:29
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I doubt a microchip that doesn’t need cooling, while still calculating reasonably fast, is possible.
Yeah, man, Bezos has tens of billions, if not hundreds! He could support the development of something that breaks the fundamental rules of physics EASILY!
Computers use electricity to do math. The more electricity you have, the more math you can do. In order to do the math, the electricity is handled in a way that outputs heat. Unfortunately, the most reliable, cost effective and plentiful materials that allow electricity to do a lot of math also get heavily impacted by heat.
FiskFisk33@startrek.website
on 08 Aug 09:51
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modern cpus has an energy density on par with nuclear power plant cores.
Remember that time that Microsoft sunk a data center in the ocean, proved this was cost effective, was reliable and could scale? And now it’s been five years and nothing happened? Yeah that was annoying.
It worked well until there was a component failure, requiring a whole farm to be taken down to replace said failed components. This is why they dropped the project.
I’m sure they did, and they wouldn’t take the farm down until there was X% failure, but the amount of time and effort it took to perform those repairs made it unfeasible.
How are you going to evaluate long term effects without practical experiments? They clearly have the money and its much easier and efficient to launch a real MVP than to design a complex set of simulations and tests.
threaded - newest
Amazon have how many data centers and they wanna be building more? Greedy cunts
We could simply stop using amazon services and they won’t be build anymore.
Yup, just takes a single person!
I don’t use AWS! Are all the data centers gone yet?
How do you know that this instance isn’t running on AWS?
Any link that you click on which takes you to an external website has a large probability of taking you to an AWS datacenter.
I assumed they meant “stop giving Amazon money” because “stop using the internet entirely” is a such a ridiculous suggestion
Clearly I need to pull myself up by my bootstraps and checks notes change how large portions of the Internet get their compute.
I’m gonna use up all the fresh water just popping down to the data center for some AWS compute time, as a treat.
Good luck using the internet while avoiding AWS
I swear I didn’t asked for this bloated fucking mess. The whole internet could’ve been optimized to 10% of whatever it is today but we’re trying to run ReactJS now in the backend instead.
This comment needs to load after a paywall, 2 ads to subscribe, and some auto play videos.
I have VPS’s in Quebec, running on mostly hydroelectric power, in a place without water supply concerns for locals, in a cooler climate. OVH in this case, but there are others. Can’t control what random websites are hosted on, but can avoid giving money to this crazyness.
Ah yes, just stop using the internet.
I haven’t given a god damn dime to amazon since 2020, ever since I learned about the piss bottles. I’ve asked (and assisted) others to do the same. What else do you expect someone to do? Speak for yourself asshole.
Are you familiar with AWS? Amazon Web services. Many, many, websites use them and I don’t think there’s a way to tell as a user.
Like, you go to a website and their images are hosted on s3 (an aws service) and their database is on RDS (also AWS), and their whole backend application is using eks or ecs or whatever.
That’s extremely common. Companies don’t run their own hardware anymore very often.
I know. I’m not a web dev nor do I know anyone who is to convince otherwise, to use other services. AWS dominance is undeniably huge. If you know a way to combat that (alternative infrastructure) I would be happy to hear it, and I will share that alongside what I already tell people. Again I’m not well-versed in that space, but my understanding is that AWS is essentially the only full-stack solution that’s also highly scalable. Open to correction if I’m wrong here.
Google and Microsoft have competing services, but those companies also suck. I think they’re less popular, but I don’t know much about why.
I’m not aware of any smaller competitors, though some probably exist. It would be a big risk for a company to go with a new provider. There’s a lot of library support for the big players, for one thing. If you want your python application to talk to AWS, the boto library is just right there.
You could run your own hardware somewhere, but that has its own host of problems, if you’ll pardon the pun. I worked somewhere a long time ago that had its own servers in a data center. The place got flooded in a big storm and we were down for a couple days.
Agreed, MS and Google are pretty much on the same plane with regards to company ethics.
Makes sense that it becomes a serious trade-off with usability the more a company tries to DIY. The risk aspect is certainly hard to get around. Seems that a solution to this problem would have to be long-term. Any company that has competed with AWS in the past, afaik, has been purchased and absorbed. It would likely require the creation of a nonprofit with a guiding directive to prioritize keeping the organization independent and never being sold. But I’ve seen that sort of thing fall apart and go off-mission in other industries too.
Considering the above, the only other thing I can think of is a regulating body declaring AWS as a monopoly and forcing them to split. The chances of that happening in the current administration are probably near zero.
Shit sucks, though I appreciate your response.
I never understood the popularity of AWS. It’s much cheaper using VPSs and even dedicated servers sometimes. I’ve worked on very cost-sensitive projects where I rolled our own highly-available k8s and postgres clusters on dedicated servers and VPSs and saved the company a shit load of money. Only used the “cloud” to store backups (Backblaze). There’s tons of other options other than major “cloud” providers, and they’re often much cheaper.
I’m sure you don’t actually understand how this functions but the reason that products aren’t really available on storefronts anymore is because they’re sold on Amazon.
We created a monster.
I have somehow avoided Amazon all these years. It’s easy for me, nothing I require is connected to Amazon.
I’m sure there are aspects of the business that I can’t avoid that I don’t even know I’m being dragged into, but I don’t spend my money with them.
Anytime I can’t find something somewhere else, I just move on and forget about it.
The only times I’ve ever been bummed about it is when I’m working on some small project and the parts are half the price on Amazon. Most recently, it was parts for an arcade machine.
If I’m being inconvenienced, I don’t even know it.
I walked away originally when they acquired cdnow.com. I last visited the site when it began redirecting to Amazon.
I’ve boycotted Amazon completely for 25 years, ever since their 1 click patent bullshit. It’s not that hard to do, but people are lazy and cheap.
I mean water isn’t that important
Why the hell are they trying to build data centers in the fucking Sonoran Desert anyway.
Because they got fuck-you money.
Yeah, seems like a desert isn’t the best place to build something where cooling is a critical factor! Or building something that uses massive amounts of chemical treated water for cooling in a place that has had water scarcity concerns for generations, now.
I don’t understand why they even need to use up water. Water cooling does not require you to evaporate the water. You can just keep it as a closed system and reuse the water.
If nuclear power plants can manage it which would be easy for a server farm
Because closed loops are more expensive in the short term, making it a non-starter
I guess water is cheep enough.
Still kinda obnoxious though. Like they couldn’t see that the ultra high water usage was the thing that would get the most pushback from?
Closed loop watercooling is really just air cooling with extra steps. The water is heated by the devices and cooled by a large radiator with fans. Or it’s cooled with a chiller which in turn is cooled by a radiator with fans.
Replacing the water is the most effective (yet wasteful) way to remove the heat.
To a point, yes. While you’re still using air to cool the water, I think it’s still a little more efficient than blindly keeping the server room at a low-ish temperature.
Keeping the server room cool is just using an air conditioner which is cooled by a radiator with a fan, and then using that cooled air to cool another radiator with a fan. Every step is a loss of efficiency.
The main advantage of water loops is that you get to use a different form factor for the radiator and fan by moving it away from the source of heat and aren’t limited by the case dimensions.
I once saw a spa that was using a liquid cooled bank of computers to heat their pool water. It involves a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger so they’re not pumping chlorinated pool water through their servers but…I wish we did more of that. Server farms are a source of heat, lots of other things need heat.
It’s not their water, so they don’t care. When it finally runs out, they’ll just go somewhere else.
I mean, sure, that’s their plan, but you can only do that so many times before you run out of money, materials, water, or places to build. If ever there was proof that there’s no forward thinking in this tech bubble, this would be it.
That’s someone else’s problem. Hopefully someone after they’re dead, but as long as they have their golden parachute, who cares?
True but this isn’t specific to the tech bubble. It’s a feature of capitalism. Competition forces firms to adopt shorter term horizons. If a firm has significant profit to make by focusing on the short term and it does not, its competitor would. If the profit possoble within this period is significant, having the competitor collect it runs the risk of the current firm failing, or the competitor accumulating enough for hostile takeover, among other failures. That would stop the current firm onwer from collecting profits in the future. Even if focusing on the long term is more profitable over time, firms may not survive in a competitive environment to realize long term profits. These are some of the fundamental processes that drive firms into short term horizons. With liquid asset markets there are even more immediate processes driving firms into short term planning.
Add to that planning based mainly on prices, which don’t capture a ton of reality and you get situations like a water hungry datacenter in the desert, cause the price of water does not capture its long term availability for example.
All of this has happened in the past, even a century ago. It’s happened and keeps happening in other industries too. For example the fossil fuel industry.
That’s more an artifact of modern corporate structure where a publicity traded entity must always be growing or it will be considered a failure.
They’re locusts. They don’t think about anything past the next fiscal quarter.
That is so thoughtless and shortsighted of them! If we run out of water, how will the poor Saudis grow alfalfa for their racehorses?
They building a new data center in the bay area California that is struggling for water all the time. But its OK they are building it upstream towards the reservoir so they can get first dibs
I wonder if they could use sea water for that. I know salt is corrosive, but surely there’s a reasonable solution there.
I remember there was talks about a floating data center in the ocean.
I’d much rather have underwater data centers. A floating data center seems like a massive eyesore and you’d need to run cables out there.
If you build one underground near the shore and then channel water in from the ocean, it should be much less intrusive.
It still has problems. Mainly you need to get power out there and the heated exhaust water can mess with the ecosystem.
Right, by “near the shore” I meant a land-based facility with access to sea water. Heated exhaust water could also be used in a local desalinization plant to produce fresh water for maximum efficiency.
It’s not like they’re dunking the electronics in the water. They just need to filter it enough it doesn’t clog up the system and run it in a closed loop.
If I can have a closed loop with a reservoir for my home PC, motherfucking Amazon can build a water storage tank for their cooling.
Sure, but that means more space to allow for cooling the water so it can be reused. If you can cycle it w/ “unlimited” cool water from the ocean, it can be a lot more compact, and heated waste water could potentially be used by a desalinization plant to improve freshwater output.
But that would require large capital investments that negatively impacts earnings reports.
Much better to screw over the people by taking their water for free.
Nuclear plants do that with lakes, they suck in cool water from one end and dump out the hot water at the other so that it can cool down by the time it circulates back in
seawater would probably corrode whatever storage system they have in there overtime, all that biological material, chemicals and gunk.
Sure. A lot of that can be filtered out, but there will be corrosion with whatever heat transfer system they use. However, seawater is free, pretty consistently cool temperature (esp. in the Pacific), and is plentiful, so replacing some heat exchange components shouldn’t be overly burdensome.
What’s it called/who should I look up to learn about this?
Its an amazon data center in Gilroy, been in the works for a long time but they recently put up the development signs so I think now that they ran the new water lines a like a year ago they are ready to break ground
They don’t even have enough water for the garlic anymore, and that’s the crop equivalent of a fucking lizard :(
So that one’s not too worried about the tectonic stability thing, then.
Low humidity. Good for longevity of electronics, and makes the evaporative cooling more efficient. So it’s a matter of the benefits of that vs. the cost of the added heat.
Land is also relatively cheap.
Farms, now data centers? Let’s add a Nestlé water or coca Cola factory.
Said in another comment, our deserts are tectonically stable and free of natural disasters. If you want redundant DCs, picking one on the desert is a good bet.
Yeah, all we got is man made tragedy of the commons disasters where the data centers deplete not only the water for humans, but the water for the data centers. Poof, no more data.
I’m more worried about humans draining our aquifers that took thousands, even millions, of years to fill. That water is no more replaceable than oil.
its also colder at night, because the desert doesnt retain heat much? in places like vegas its hot, because the asphalt and concrete absorbs heat.
So they’ll just go build it in Chandler with all the others instead, I guess?
Why are data centers so thirsty anyway? Can’t cooling systems just reuse water in a closed loop?
No, usually the water doesn’t cool down fast enough. Trying to reuse it just slowly heats it up, until either the water or the servers evaporate.
their servers evaporating sounds like a good deal to me
…in the time chosen. If the planet can get down to 13c overnight, I bet Skippy’s relatively smaller data centre can get down sooner with a proper loop.
I know it’s hard finding a good spot of flat land now that the choicest spots have all been fracked for methane and are no longer stable - thanks, ‘green’ energy shysters! - but what else were ya gonna do with all that space under the solar panels?
By-product? Free showers for the homeless with that waste heat. Yay?
Evaporative cooling needs less water mass and less surface area for the same cooling effect. They could simply use bigger heat sinks outside the building and have a bigger water cooling system to make it closed loop, but they don’t want to do that.
Then why the fuck do they keep wanting build them in the middle of the desert then?
Cheap land, dry air is good for evaporative cooling, and many arid areas have a surprising amount of ground water. It ultimately comes down to being the cheapest option, not the smartest or best option.
So how long to the billionaires have that entire city council replaced with people who are in their pocket and will vote for its passing?
In the states? 1-2 years tops.
Trump will have them arrested on terrorism charges in a month…after a totally coincidental delivery of a golden idol to trump, from bezos
edit I said this as a joke, and later found Apple recently gifted Trump a golden idol.
God I miss when satire was silliness, and not psychic future sight.
Externalization of cost, the environment and community bears the cost instead of the corporation. Privatize the profits, externalize the costs.
In addition to the other answers;
America’s deserts are tectonically stable and don’t experience natural disasters. If you want your data and/or compute running in two regions for redundancy, somewhere in the desert is a good choice for one of your DCs.
Maybe in AZ or other states but CA deserts are not tectonically stable.
I know. Was looking for a term to separate the two areas. Not like the San Andreas fault is stable!
How could I have dialed that in better?
Probably some ecological or geologic zone that would be precise but I don’t know.
Two more reasons not yet mentioned:
It is close to a population center (Phoenix) keeping latency low to customers. Getting customers off the public Internet quickly and into your private network fast is best for a lot of reasons.
Cheap and abundant solar power. Data centers are extremely power hungry and power lines are expensive so companies like Amazon almost always secure abundant power rights before building. Google built their first data center in The Dalles Oregon because an aluminum smelter had gone belly up and left a bunch of capacity unclaimed in a local hydroelectric dam.
Because the local and state governments in those deserts keep promising them unlimited water for nearly free
Then local governments need be strung up. Tar and feathered and hung from the largest tree in the state.
Fewer hurricanes out there, and other natural disasters as well. I don't know how tuscon is seismically, but otherwise it has a lot of lowere risks from nature, probably
Demand, ain’t much of it in the desert. Also, easy to manipulate governments.
I think evaporative cooling is more effective.
Right, that’s what they said. For a closed loop, because it’s less “effective”, you need a much larger system. It’s more expensive to build and requires a much larger footprint and corporations like Amazon would rather save a penny than do anything to reduce their harm.
They absolutely can run closed loop. It does not cool as well as evaporative cooling (it takes MASSIVE heat to evaporate water) but it can work if designed right with large system capacity and big radiators. Trouble is it’s likely more expensive than pissing away the water and we know all that matters is bottom line.
Evaporate chilling
Good. This whole thing was stupid when the local government and utilities keep telling us little people to conserve water because, well we’re in a 113 degree desert with a complete lack of water due to climate change and they wanted to do this bullshit.
Have you tried collecting the condensation off the glass? If you use that to wash your armpits you can go an extra day before you shower so Jeff Bezos can make numbers go up in his theoretical money.
Edit: “Comical” thought. There is less than $2.5 trillion in cash circulating.
That wouldn’t cover 20 people net worth in a country of near 350,000,000.
Bezos has tens of billions, if not hundreds. He could support development of heat-resistant microchips, which would have countless applications.
I doubt a microchip that doesn’t need cooling, while still calculating reasonably fast, is possible.
It’s possible if you make it a macrochip instead of a microchip.
Wat
Yeah, man, Bezos has tens of billions, if not hundreds! He could support the development of something that breaks the fundamental rules of physics EASILY!
He can go develop me a liquid nitro cooling setup.
Use so many fans he can power a wind farm
Shove his servers up his bum
Honestly i’m fine with any of the above
Computers use electricity to do math. The more electricity you have, the more math you can do. In order to do the math, the electricity is handled in a way that outputs heat. Unfortunately, the most reliable, cost effective and plentiful materials that allow electricity to do a lot of math also get heavily impacted by heat.
modern cpus has an energy density on par with nuclear power plant cores.
they need cooling, money cant break physics.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/1bcc5fb4-17d0-4517-83c8-54f322625371.gif">
Remember that time that Microsoft sunk a data center in the ocean, proved this was cost effective, was reliable and could scale? And now it’s been five years and nothing happened? Yeah that was annoying.
Anyway their site of glowing press releases is still up for some reason
It worked well until there was a component failure, requiring a whole farm to be taken down to replace said failed components. This is why they dropped the project.
They didn’t think of that when designing this?
I’m sure they did, and they wouldn’t take the farm down until there was X% failure, but the amount of time and effort it took to perform those repairs made it unfeasible.
What do you think research is?
you don’t need to jump off a building to research gravity…
the specific issue that is claimed to have made the entire project unviable is easily spotted a mile away
How are you going to evaluate long term effects without practical experiments? They clearly have the money and its much easier and efficient to launch a real MVP than to design a complex set of simulations and tests.
I guess that , unlike some famous people in “Phoenix Valley”, the people in Tucson did not forget “the white man’s greed”.
Kudos to them!
Well fine, guess I’ll have to make my obese fart videos the old fashioned way. Anyone seen my kimchi?
This is a good showcase of how a few individuals can leverage power to fend off massive interests. For the good of the public even, in this instance.
Also a good showcase on why you should care about your local elections. Vote for people who will protect your interests, like these folks.