i hate musk, but i am not wild about our dependence on china either, so i am not really sure who to root for in this fight…
themeatbridge@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 11:37
nextcollapse
Competition is good for the consumer. More options from more players will encourage more charging infrastructure and (ostensibly) more innovation. It’s not just Elon Musk vs China. Every automaker that wants to sell cars in the USA is on notice. If they want to compete in the EV subcategory, they need to focus on price and performance. People want budget-conscious EVs.
Not super into cars but is there even any reason other than environmental friendliness to get an EV? Where I’m from, EVs are all wildly expensive compared to their combustion peers and they all frankly look really ugly to me. The coil whine of the EVs also drive me crazy.
They make decent “point A to point B” cars, but that’s about it. They take a long time to charge, and when that battery is due for replacement, it might just total the car.
Even the cheap ones accelerate faster, ride smoother, and are quieter. You don’t have to get oil changes, and the brakes don’t wear down as fast. Plus I can recharge at home, which is loads cheaper than buying gasoline.
And this is all with a relatively ancient Nissan Leaf, the new vehicles are all far better.
Oh, and let’s not forget that even very small air quality improvements have noticeable improvements in lung health! Humans were not meant to be breathing gasoline fumes or combustion exhaust.
random_character_a@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 13:53
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My government just added a controversial extra tax on EVs because they tear up the roads and cause additional particles, because they are really heavy and most of them have a better than usual torque.
You can really see how road quality went to shit after EVs became mainstream.
Making batteries is also a really ugly business and far from environmental.
BakerBagel@midwest.social
on 25 Jun 14:57
nextcollapse
I live in an area where half the vehicles on the road are pickup trucks and giant SUV’S. A KIA EV2 isn’t doing any added harm to the roads here.
That is not even remotely why they added a tax on EVs. The reason they added the extra tax is because they make a ton of money by taxing gas and as EVs are gaining popularity they’re starting to see their tax revenues plummet. There is a nugget of truth in that some of those tax revenues are used to pay for maintaining the roads and that EVs do still put wear and tear on the roads, but it’s not that they’re destroying roads any more than any other car does.
If you’re seeing a drop in road quality it’s because your government isn’t paying to have the roads maintained like they have in the past, not because there are more EVs driving around.
random_character_a@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 13:01
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You are a mouthpiece, I’m going to assume everything you say is a lie or grossly misrepresented. Post your sources, bootlicker.
random_character_a@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 13:05
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Piip piip boop boop.
Evil nordic bot coming at you.
Theoriginalthon@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 13:23
nextcollapse
With my cheap over night tarrif (UK) I pay approximately 2p a mile, I’m planning a road trip to Europe soon and have calculated with a pay for discount EV charge card, I’ll average about 14p/mile. I’m saving between £60-£80 a month compared to my old diesel car, which pays off the charger install ~£900 in a year. Diesel price have dropped in the UK since I got mine.
For servicing it’s coolant every 3 years or so, and that pretty much it. We have a MOT in the UK, for every vehicle over 3 years old, then yearly, that covers more than what is needed on the yearly services for my car. Only thing it doesn’t cover is lubricate the charge port, but I think I’m ok with that
Also the cabin noise is almost silent, no gears, constant predictable acceleration, and I can plug anything I want in to the 240v outlet in the back seat
I mean I’m personally a public transport kinda person. I live somewhere where a car is really just a status symbol since even the cheapest car costs at least roughly 90k USD and most people take public transport.
themeatbridge@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 19:01
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Others have addressed your other questions, but I want to add that the “coil whine” that irritates you is probably the car’s slow-moving warning system. EVs are effectively silent at slow speeds because there is no engine noise or road noise, so they are required to make an annoying sound when maneuvering to get your attention. While it is an important safety feature, I agree some are very obnoxious.
I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same sound as it’s so high pitched that most people older than me are unable to even hear it while people my age or younger can clearly identify it. If that’s supposed to be a warning system, it doesn’t seem very good?
themeatbridge@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 02:32
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I mean, it’s also entirely possible you’ve heard a failing magnetic drive, a humming battery, or a squeeky mechanical thing like brakes or bearings. Those are all strong indicators of a significant problem with the car, and should be fixed immediately. But if you hear it every time, as soon as the car starts moving in a parking lot, that’s the safety feature.
except what is happening now is not really any kind of fair competition. the european manufacturers exported they know-how to china, which was strategic failure, it was stolen, and now it is sold back to us with the advantage of cheap chinese production.
they will ruin our production and we will be in a similar situation where we were during covid, when the political leadership were saluting the china cargo airplanes on tarmac, otherwise it would not bring us masks, syringes, or any other stuff whose production we had given up and outsourced to china
unless we turn the ship around quite soon, we will be regretting it soon and for a long time.
SpaceRanger13@lemm.ee
on 25 Jun 11:38
nextcollapse
I would say go with whatever company that doesn’t have a CEO throwing Nazi salutes.
Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Jun 11:44
nextcollapse
Yeah, the Chinese manufacturers are out to make money, and at least we know what to expect from them.
Besides, being profitable usually means making a better product than your competitors.
Yeah. I have a car that has telemetry. Sucks for privacy, but if I was going to commit a crime, I would just ******************************************************************************, use the system to obfuscate the data.
TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.zip
on 26 Jun 18:29
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And you think ICE cars don’t have spyware these days?
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 18:41
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I dunno, ICE cars weren’t on my list to start with. I assume.
I don’t know that they’re out to make money though. A lot of the Chinese manufacturers are now struggling due to the price war they instigated themselves. Huge production surplus but they pushed down the price so much they hardly make any money
Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Jun 05:00
nextcollapse
I think a lot of it is also growing their market share and establishing their brand.
Brand recognition is important, but it’s a dangerous game operating mostly on government subsidies. Once you have established low prices it’s hard to reverse it
Competition is fierce, but they are not exactly struggling due to government subsidies/incentives. These are so extreme that Chinese manufacturers are over producing and dumping “used” EVs with zero mileage for export.
Similar to US agricultural dumping, this is a terrible policy for everyone, except for the beneficiaries of the subsidies, and maybe the overseas consumers who get cheap EVs in the short term.
So support the country committing a genocide against the uyghurs? Because you think a salute is worse than a Holocaust, got it.
SpaceRanger13@lemm.ee
on 25 Jun 12:09
nextcollapse
If you don’t see musk as one of the singular greatest threats to this planet, I dunno what to tell you. It is certainly not just the salute, that was just the most public he’s been about his true self. If I recall those Nazis had some thoughts on the Holocaust as well.
How many of those got up on stage with the seal of the president of the United States and did one of the most identifiable actions of the last true fascist regime? musk was able to spend $250 million to pretend to be president for a few months to kneecap the US government and kill all the investigations into his illegal dealings as well as reward his companies with lucrative government contracts. I’d love to see any of those tinpot dictators and “communist” leaders do that.
Putin is the head of the paper tiger Russia. If they didn’t have nukes the US probably would have steam rolled them back in 2014 when they took Crimea. If the world actually gave Ukraine the weapons and resources to do it, I have no doubt they could be at Moscow’s door in a couple months.
Kim Jung Un is the head of a pariah state who relies on worldwide aide so that his people don’t starve more than they already are starving.
Sure Xi is the head of the state in which there is obviously genocide happening, but he’s not running a car company, which is what this whole article is about.
Riiight. Listen, this isn’t going anywhere. You think a salute is worse than a genocide, musk is a greater threat than dictators with nukes, and there’s no way I’m going to change your mind. I’m going to peace out
In a couple months a drug fueled musk did to the US what Xi and Putin have been trying to do for decades. It most certainly wasn’t just his salute that made me think that.
You could change my mind if you brought any information to the table that shows how those two are worse than musk.
Xi became president for life almost a decade ago, Putin ignored term limits in like 2008. Musk is failing to do what they have done, and he doesn’t even express any real power over the president given he hid his role from the courts and left the white house with a black eye.
And? I concede that both of them are doing their best to end US as a superpower, but when was the last time either of them cost the US $500 Billion in tax revenue as well putting 283,000 Americans out of work in just 4 months? Again this all goes back to a car company that isn’t run by Xi or Putin. Tesla is run by a Nazi.
The report shows that “DOGE Actions” led to 283,172 job cuts in the first four months of 2025, and “DOGE Downstream Impact” was cited as the reason for another 6,945 job losses, which the report indicates largely come from non-profits and education organizations.
You could make the argument that Russian interference helped give us Trump in 2016 and that Chinese Military run TikTok’s promotion helped him in 2024, so yes those two actually did do that pretty recently, yeah.
You sure could argue that. Correlation doesn’t equal causation. You could also contribute trump’s 2024 win to the 10 million less democrats who decided not to vote. I doubt all 10 million of those were because of tiktok.
musk didn’t own twitter or contribute $220 million to trump’s campaign in 2016 either.
No, correlation doesn’t equal causation, but causation certainly is causation, so maybe those violent dictatorships aren’t better than the third one they’re attempting to create.
tortina_original@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 12:12
nextcollapse
Hahaha.
As opposed to supporting a country that… (fill in the blanks, there is an infinite supply)
i am afraid it is just that most CEOs are sane enough to keep their embarrassing moments for their private life. do you think musk is the only narcissistic psychopath on drugs in the business world?
this is not advocating for musk, but it is important to be grounded in reality ;)
SpaceRanger13@lemm.ee
on 25 Jun 12:36
nextcollapse
I have no doubt most CEOs are psychopaths, but they also don’t own a global Nazi mouthpiece like twitter, or have more money and resources than several small nations.
Feet firmly planted in reality, thanks. You definitely sound like your advocating for musk.
TeamAssimilation@infosec.pub
on 25 Jun 16:18
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To be fair, I think most of USA is on recreational drugs, legal, illegal, or “prescription”. That shouldn’t matter as much compared to his other actions.
what he does in his free time is one thing (i don’t care about that), being high when he is working for a government ruining people’s lives and jobs is another.
unless you for some reason like leftist dictator who would like to rule the world more than the right one, there isn’t really practical difference in this
China would love so much to rule the world, that’s why it hasn’t entered any war in the past 40+ years, and that’s why all countries in the global south are happy to enter the comparably advantageous economic deals and infrastructure investments that China offers in comparison with the magnificent western democracies.
How many countries has China bombed in the past 40 years? Let’s now make a list for the USA, see who wins!
As for “dictator”, look at the approval rates of Xi in China and compare them to those of Kid Starver in the UK, Trump in the US, or Macron in France. I guess democracy is best represented by the system that lets you choose which hateful ghoul will apply social austerity policy and invest 5% of GDP in NATO.
I agree until the last part. Democracies have more freedoms allowing for more accurate polling. There is also less fear of consequences for being open. Countries should be able to defend themselves, 5% is a step toward peace. The cold war never became hot because of the investment in defence.
Tell that to the millions of people the west murdered through bombing of Korea, Vietnam or Laos, the millions more murdered though US support of military dictators such as Suharto or Pinochet, or the millions who died through the de-stabilization of their countries such as Mosaddeq’s Iran, Guatemala or the outright invasion of Iraq. Ask those people what they think of the west’s military expenses over the past century.
Democracies have more freedoms allowing for more accurate polling. There is also less fear of consequences for being open
Literally two days ago Mamdani won the mayoral elections against all polls, polls in the west are heavily manipulated. And literally last week a man was denied entry in the country due to having a picture of bald Vance. I happen to be Spanish, and in our super-democratic state we have literal political prisoners who had to free the country such as Carles Puigdemont due to political persecution and risking their lives in jail. The west is NOT more democratic than China at this point, and the trend is towards openness in China and towards fascism in the west.
The trend is toward openness in China? Just off the top of my head didnt Xi consolidate more power over the last 12 months and stop issuing economic statistics as a resukt of their trend?
I am not American, they are a shit hole country, they have never been much more but the veneer is wiped off now.
Those proxy wars are the example of it not getting hot. Russia and the US had so much military power no one risked direct attacks.
I do not support the US, Israel or any such shite but dont tell half a story and sum up with china is opening up.
Then what’s this?. I literally don’t know what you’re talking about.
The trend is toward openness in China?
Yes. China is progressively opening up, allowing things such as IShowSpeed to do livestreams of the country wherever he wants and granting him honorary visas, and spreading the contact of Chinese people with westerners through for example XiaoHongShu (RedNote) or TikTok, which is why the US wants to ban access to these apps. I’m not a US citizen either, I’m European, and the EU itself closed access to Russian media some months after the war started. You may or may not think that this is justified, but it’s quite literally the definition of “closing up”, and China is engaging in exactly the opposite.
Those proxy wars are the example of it not getting hot
I beg you tell the same to a Ukrainian or to a Vietnamese.
spreading the contact of Chinese people with westerners through for example XiaoHongShu (RedNote) or TikTok, which is why the US wants to ban access to these apps
You missed the part where China hurried through a tiktok like curtain to silo users.
You must have also missed the social credit scoring. The HK protests.
You may or may not think that this is justified, but it’s quite literally the definition of “closing up”, and China is engaging in exactly the opposite.
This is textbook tolerance paradox stuff, either accept propaganda or you ae against free speech. Oligarchical authoritarian cunts should not have access into a foreign population, that is why Trump is in power. Are you telling me the EU has less press freedoms than Russia or China? Because closing the gap doesnt mean much if its by a tenth of a degree.
I beg you tell the same to a Ukrainian or to a Vietnamese
Its clear you are passionate and refusing to take on board an alternative view. There is nothing in what I have said that should lead you to reply with this. Understand proxy wars and realise that military spending kept the direct warfare cold.
Ukraine is atrocity that is only tied to the cold war by way of Russia continuing fighting it while the US got complacent and allowed their government to fall which lead to a lack of support/tacit support for Russia.
According to SCMP, “The urban jobless rate among those aged 16 to 24 – excluding students – fell to 15.8 per cent last month, down from 16.5 per cent in March, according to data released by the National Bureau of Statistics on Tuesday”. What’s your point? It literally says “released by the National Bureau of Statistics”, what’s the government hiding??
You missed the part where China hurried through a tiktok like curtain to silo users.
Can you source this claim, please?
You must have also missed the social credit scoring
This is a nothingburger made up by western bad-faith actors. There is no such thing as a social credit score in China. Unlike in the US, where you can go into your bank account to check your “good citizen meter” and see how likely you are to get a mortgage.
The HK protests
Nothing compared to ICE kidnapping people from their literal homes masked, putting them into unmarked vans, and deporting them without due process or putting them in prison.
This is textbook tolerance paradox stuff, either accept propaganda or you ae against free speech
So, China forbidding western media is oppressive and dictatorial because western press good, but the West forbidding Russian media is cool and based because Russian media bad? You’re only showing your bias here if you think western media has any semblance of objectivity, especially when it comes to international politics.
Are you telling me the EU has less press freedoms than Russia or China?
Not than Russia, Russia is further advanced towards fascism than the EU, so it’s worse. But China is getting better and the EU is getting worse.
Its clear you are passionate and refusing to take on board an alternative view.
It’s clear that you only care about deaths if they take place on the first world. You want to avoid “direct confrontation” because you care more about Europeans and Americans than you do about Vietnamese, Korean or Iraqi. You take pride in how much the “military expenditure in the cold war prevented direct conflict” without caring about how much more conflict it stoked outside the west.
Ukraine is atrocity that is only tied to the cold war by way of Russia
False. The invasion of Ukraine is a policy pursued by the Russian goverment as a way to preserve the sphere of influence that the west is eroding each day through NATO and economic/soft power. You can condemn it, it’s cruel and abhorrent, but it’s not exclusively Russia to blame, and in 10 years from now this will be clear to everyone.
the global south are happy to enter the comparably advantageous economic deals
are they happy? and are the deals advantageous? can you back up your claims? 😂
As for “dictator”, look at the approval rates of Xi in China
oh yes, the approval rating of a dictator in a dictatorship is very valid metric 😂. (hint hint: they are irrelevant even if they were not fixed. any kind of approval rating bears zero relevance to whether the country is a totalitarian state or not, or whether the country is a threat to its neighbours or not).
They manufacture everything, they are just people chilling in their country. Say what you will about their form of government but BYD havent invested in hurting people for no reason.
Telsas total european market share this month is 1.2%, down from 1.8% last may. The chinese market share is 5.9%, not 5.6%.
5.9% vs 1.2% is a 5x sales rate for chinese cars versus Teslas. According to the article, china doubled its EU market share in the last year, while Tesla lost 30% of its market share in the same time period.
The title is not sensational. If anything, your comment is a bit misleading by not listing the tesla EU market share.
You are comparing Tesla, a full electric car maker to « Chinese cars » which includes multiple brands and all engine types.
Only one-third of the cars that the Chinese carmakers sold in Europe during the first quarter were electric.
pdqcp@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Jun 13:59
nextcollapse
Root for better public transport and active cities instead of car dependency :)
StenSaksTapir@feddit.dk
on 25 Jun 15:28
nextcollapse
The public transport bus I take to and from work is a Chinese made electric. It’s a Yutong E15.
i am lucky, my city has excellent public transport, that doesn’t stop people from using cars though. be it because of pure habit, or because public transport is not solution for everything.
so i’d rather if our european car industry wasn’t decimated by the chinese one.
varyingExpertise@feddit.org
on 25 Jun 21:38
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Living in the boonies, I’m never going to get a bus going by every ten minutes so a solid market for good EVs is still what I root for.
Of course, public transport has a limit and we can root for both as well, including protected bike lanes even in the boonies like we successfully see in the Netherlands
varyingExpertise@feddit.org
on 26 Jun 09:42
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I’m somewhat hopeful, in the last ten years, new and renovated country roads have been getting dedicated bike lanes behind the guardrails. Miles away from the excellent, completely separate infrastructure the dutch have, but its a start.
It would be nice if there was a way to rip out any questionable software/electric components from modern cars and replace it with something open source.
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de
on 25 Jun 11:36
nextcollapse
USA could have spent money developing an electrified economy but the republicans are focusing on bringing back coal mining and reshoring shoe manufacturing instead.
This admin has set the USA back 100 years.
ETA - what I mean is that China is rampaging on in electrification, developing manufacturing skills, infrastructure, and design/engineering/technology around renewables and electrification. Europe is thinking about it but not going crazy to the extent China is, because legacy - China doesn’t have 100 years of cars and 150 years of trains; they’re building new. USA meanwhile is actively regressing under Republican policies.
Prior_Industry@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 12:22
nextcollapse
Especially when you see some of the tech being rocked in Asian cities
balder1991@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 12:33
nextcollapse
But… but… those good ol’ days felt so good! We need to relive those days!
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 13:46
nextcollapse
This admin has set the USA back 100 years.
Again. They already enshrined “billionaires get all the money” in the one legislative victory of trumps first term.
They already enshrined "billionaires get all the money" in 2008 when the banks got the bailouts instead of the people
TeamAssimilation@infosec.pub
on 25 Jun 16:16
nextcollapse
The problem is systemic, it didn’t start with Trump. He’s just way more flagrant.
jballs@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Jun 16:55
nextcollapse
Which kind of blows my mind. Coal miners should love EVs. There was a story in the news a few years ago about how nice it was for the miners to help someone in an EV, as if they should be mortal enemies.
Non-EV cars don’t run on coal, they run on gasoline. EVs on the other hand can run on coal, natural gas, solar, wind, you name it - and still are more energy efficient than cars burning gasoline. In a sane world, coal miners would be throwing their support behind electric vehicles. The utility companies seem to understand this, but seems like the support hasn’t made its way up the supply chain.
Of course US trucks run on coal. I see them rolling coal all the time! They cant roll coal if it wasnt coal. Duh…
AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com
on 25 Jun 17:29
nextcollapse
This isn’t exclusively a problem of the new administration, or the previous. All administrations since the late 20th century have been compliant in allowing the offshoring of most industry
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de
on 25 Jun 18:12
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It’s not just industry. Now they’re killing the development of skills and knowledge in engineering (hardware, software) and design
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 18:05
nextcollapse
bringing back coal mining and horseshoe manufacturing
Apparantly they have also been removing bike lanes in some area’s….
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 13:47
nextcollapse
as customers switch to Chinese EVs
Sure. That’s the reason.
killabeezio@lemmy.zip
on 25 Jun 13:58
nextcollapse
I don’t think that’s what they meant. I think they are just saying that people are still buying EVs, but they are just going to Chinese and other manufacturers instead of buying a Tesla. The article specifically calls out the stupid shit Elon has been doing.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 14:08
nextcollapse
Ah. Good to know- I didn’t read the article, but that’s kind of my point, really. Most people don’t, and media outlets know that. The headline is all that “carries”. A better headline would include the Nazi stuff AND Chinese EVs. I think they deliberately avoided that and tucked it in the article.
RazgrizOne@piefed.zip
on 25 Jun 15:27
nextcollapse
My dude you can't admit you didn't read the article then defend the fact that you didn't read it like that. Just read it and then comment lol
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 15:29
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My comment is about the headline. Yes?
I read that. Everyone read that. That’s what my comment is referring to.
You could just say, “you’re right, I probably should have.”
Try it sometime, it’s nice.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 21:20
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“the headline is wrong”
Wahhhh you didn’t read the article!
“that’s true. you’re right. I probably should have. Where I would then return to the single sentence that I’m referring to and nothing will have changed. Do you even understand what I’m talking about? Because that would be nice.”
The headline to me clearly is stating that people are not buying Teslas and are buying alternative Chinese based EVs instead. I think that anyone that’s heard Elon’s name over the past 6 months can read between the lines and understand the causation here.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 21:23
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Well - I would hope. But that’s not the same as putting it in there is it.
“Tesla sales drop as EU consumers choose Chinese brands plus Musk is y’know WINK”
I mean, I can see why they didn’t go with that one but still. There are plenty of people who don’t understand Elmo is an out-and-out nazi, cozy with putin and Peter Thiel and will destroy the country as soon as possible. Not mentioning him and his drugged-out asinine ideas in the headline is a missed opportunity.
The title isn’t there to tell the whole story though. It should give a high level summary and then the details are in the article. If you hypothetically put something like what you suggested, it still doesn’t give all of the context, and the title would need to be longer to include the history of Musk, his drug use, his position with Tesla, etc, and you can’t put that all in the title. I’m all for dunking on that Nazi whenever we can, but I personally don’t think that the title of this article deserves any criticism, especially in the age of clickbait titles that don’t give anything, this one is decently descriptive.
homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 22:44
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I’ll give you that. I just want more. Elmo’s such a stain that not factoring it directly to Tesla-going-down stories seems like skimping.
frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 25 Jun 14:19
nextcollapse
Which is important because about a year ago the headlines were saying EV sales were collapsing. In fact, it was just Tesla having less market share of new EVs sold because other manufacturers got off their ass.
Not even sure it’s that true though. Afaik BYD is only the 14th most popular car in Denmark, and European brands have risen from around ~28% last year to ~40% this year. Sure, Chinese carmakers have had some growth - but we’re talking in the order of something between 2 - 4% of the market. Might be more popular in other countrues
Which owes to how gigantic the Chinese market is. They now have a 5% market share for new cars in Europe - which this article is about. It doesn’t matter if they top global sales just because there are so many Chinese buyers
misteloct@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Jun 16:12
nextcollapse
Hitler was “incendiary” and “political” but I think there’s a four-letter word so much better, so much more concise, that this wording is actual disinformation.
samus12345@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Jun 23:25
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Journalists do Nazi what you’re talking about.
misteloct@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Jun 01:07
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CNBC didn’t here. So it’s a lie.
herseycokguzelolacak@lemmy.ml
on 25 Jun 16:58
nextcollapse
I own BYD and it is a great car. Very pleased with it.
WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Jun 00:36
nextcollapse
how many cameras does it have? be pleased about all your, and your neighbourhoods everydays be uploaded to china, to train face recognition and whatever else
I hate teslas, but byd’s are not even slightly better in my eyes.
I don’t like the feeling that we may never see a consumer friendly EV anymore, but only ones that exploit their users in any ways they can
China can have all the images they want from my car’s. I don’t live in China or anywhere near them. I’m more concerned about US made EVs and their surveillance because I travel there regularly, and they are digging hard on everything for people coming into the US.
WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Jun 15:15
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I live neither in china or the usa, but I don’t want myself be recorded by either of their appliances that I use. and that naturally also extends to my neighbors and wherever I go.
its quite interesting how many people suddenly started to love mass surveillance
You can minimize surveillance, but right now it’s impossible to avoid it completely. The next best thing is is keeping whatever you can private, and what you can’t, try to have it sent to someone irrelevant, like in my case are the Chinese.
Don’t know why exactly are you downvoted but this is exactly what is going on as cars get more ”connected”, following Tesla & BYD lead.
Just like with phones at the moment, everything tries to spy on you a little to tap into that sweeet targeted ad revenue, or something else.
For example I bet the insurance companies love to have some driver behaviour data about you, and the big retail likes to know where/what time you are on the move (though they already get it from the dozens of apps on your phone that have access to location data, like Google Maps).
WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Jun 15:19
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Don’t know why exactly are you downvoted
It’s very weird. maybe I was a bit too harsh in the beginning, but I don’t think it was nearly this bad.
For example I bet the insurance companies love to have some driver behaviour data about you, and the big retail likes to know where/what time you are on the move (though they already get it from the dozens of apps on your phone that have access to location data, like Google Maps)
there are ways to clean it out of a phone, but cars are much more closed down, and if I had to guess they are probably even protected against you cleaning it out software-wise by safety regulations
That’s halfway true, depending on the part, and where you live. But the warranty they provide (at least in my country) covers everything that you don’t damage yourself, and the warranty is transferable if you sell it still being under warranty.
The only expense I’ve had with mine are new tires and correcting some body scratches caused by other people (and public charging if on long road trips, because I charge at home with solar power).
We have 2 BYD plug-in EVs in our house, absolutely delighted with the brand. Before that I had a Model 3 Tesla, which I could not get rid of fast enough.
Honor where honor is due, Tesla did open the door for mainstreaming EVs, there’s no doubt about it, but it was through marketing based on gimmicks, not through quality products. But the reality is that BYD, Xiaomi, Avatr and a few other Chinese manufacturing cars are way better value and even quality than their Occidental counterparts.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 18:34
nextcollapse
And in the US we just block foreign options because it is gov policy to artificially support specific corporations.
One group is comprised of people who think the government should basically keep the military going, and handle foreign relations when that doesn’t impede private citizens.
The other group is just Republicans who don’t like being called Republicans.
They know, they just have too much invested in their 401k to think about their own best interests. Sold themselves and their future families for a couple more % points of growth yearly.
I don’t think that has ever been true, really. Nor should it be, Laissez Faire is a trainwreck waiting to happen, probably literally and figuratively.
Textbooks will tell you that the USA, and other countries like China and Russia, are a regulated “Market System” which in some markets teeters on strict Oligopoly.
I think it also has to do with the economy, not just nazi salutes. Its a bad job market, people dont have money, so luxary cars are not going to be attractive.
Also there is hardly any reason to buy a Tesla… Volvo recharge and others are better cars, made by actual car companies with a good reputation for quality.
Tesla was the techy car. The fast car. The fun car. The virtue signaling car. The convienent car. Lots of things, but they have never been the good quality car.
driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br
on 25 Jun 20:31
nextcollapse
Idk why are you being downvoted. Musk being a nazi is the last of the problems for Tesla. They had being outcompete by BYD in every measure.
Me, my friends, my colleagues are the target audience for Model 3/Y’s. I drive a Model 3 and some colleagues do as well. Pretty much all of them and myself say the same thing: The cars top the list in terms of value versus price and has the features we want and need, but we will not buy or (company) lease a Tesla (again) due to the nazi in charge. Simple as that.
At this point, people don’t even take Tesla’s into consideration anymore due to the nazi. So I would say that’s far worse than the competition with BYD.
Exactly the same for me and my circle. I got a model 3 and got at least 3 colleagues and friends to buy one after a test drive.
I won’t sell it now because it’s still a good car and I would lose a ton of money to replace it with something equivalent, but I put a fuck elon sticker on it, canceled the connectivity, avoid superchargers when possible and no longer recommend it to people.
I’m looking for a second car and used Teslas are crazy value right now but out of principle they are out of the question. Probably will go for a Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, VW ID.3 or BMW i3.
We bought a second hand i3 (2014) model for my SO to drive to work and back (short distances). The range is objectively horrible (about 100 km), but sufficient for my SO’s needs. Overall, we love the car! It’s so much fun to drive, and very efficient due to its light carbon fiber chassis. The car does everything we expect of it and we run it very cheap.
Such a waste BMW didn’t iterate on the i3/i8 sooner. They would’ve knocked Tesla out of the water before they could even learn how to swim.
That’s exactly our requirement, if budget allows even getting the 90Ah model for 150km. Plus I love the looks, weird and futuristic. Thanks for sharing!
pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip
on 25 Jun 20:35
nextcollapse
Telsa used to be a status symbol, and sexy.
But then their chief chap couldn’t seem to publicly pronounce the popular phrase “Nazi’s suck and I wish to have nothing to do with them”.
Now Telsa is an anti-status symbol.
Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Jun 23:18
collapse
There are plenty of Europeans that still have money. These are aimed at the upper upper classes and people in those strata have not been feeling the economic pinch the way many of us have.
Currently only proper options for EV is either Tesla, Korean EV’s (KIA, Hyundai) or Chinese. European and japanese EV’s are imo shit at the moment. Teslas I will avoid like plague, due to Nazis. KIA’s and Hyundai’s are so hard to get, so I am really considering getting BYD, Polestar or XPeng.
varyingExpertise@feddit.org
on 25 Jun 21:34
nextcollapse
Eh, ID7 and A6 are getting there. BMW i4 ain’t bad either.
All those are unfortunately so expensive here that I can only dream. And in my opinion over priced also.
friendlymessage@feddit.org
on 25 Jun 21:50
nextcollapse
Why’s that? I drove a Cupra Born last week, pretty decent imo. I also drove a VW ID3 and a BMW i3. So far the only European EV I didn’t like was the Audi e-tron. I haven’t driven a Korean or Chinese EV yet, so I can’t really compare. What do you prefer about them?
I currently drive Seat Mii, which is good small EV for city, but for long ranges VW and BMW are behind. Audi’s EV have been disasters. Cupras look good, but because I already have small EV, it doesn’t fit my use case .
ID’s could be ok, but they are over priced in my opinion (at least here).
Edit: for context id4’s starting price is 43k€ here in Finland. 60k€ for id7.
Edit2: Ok started looking those Chinese brands prices also if you buy them here and they are also priced in same range, so ID might be option then also
FlexibleToast@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 22:44
nextcollapse
Only heard good things about them, but aren’t they few generation’s old now. Not that next gen is always better, but EV’s have gone quite big generational steps.
Edit: and for context I drove Seat Mii at the moment and I love it to pieces, but it works only in city, not long range.
FlexibleToast@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 01:37
collapse
I think it would be silly to assume Ford isn’t updating the Mach E as it continues to produce it.
RagingRobot@lemmy.world
on 25 Jun 22:50
nextcollapse
The small Renault’s are actually more than decent EVs and can be compared to the Hyundai Inster.(With the later being the closest to a “high quality EV for everyone” I have seen. Fantastic car, small, comparable cheap, secure. They need to get a bit cheaper still,but we are getting closer)
If you are filthy rich the Porsches are decent, same goes for some of the BMW. The Nissan Arya is also okayish, so are Mercedes.
But yeah, Korea has the absolute king of the hill atm. I drive an EV6 (pre facelift). And honestly? It’s the most “fun” and “comfortable” car I ever had - and I used to have lots of expensive company cars in the past (Audi A4,A5,A6, BMW 5, Volvo), often with "lights and sirens " installed and drove Seat,Skoda,Hyundai, Volvo privately.
None of them were as fun.
None of fhem were as versatile and comfortable.
And funny enough I safe enormous amounts of money.
And all the downsides people worry about?
So far I didn’t have any.
Charging? Absolutely no issue - beside the fact that my sparky is shit and I still don’t have a home box (but a 200 bucks mobile box off Amazon helps). Even with long distances it’s no issue - even in remote locations I had a chance to charge,often easier to find than petrol. And on regular trips it takes as much time to go to the toilet and get me a coffee. Which I would also do with petrol… So in fact I save a few minutes.
Even under these circumstances I pay half compared to what I payed for petrol.
Battery issues? The car is used. So far: Zero degradation. We had it assessed by a professional company recently.
The only two issues it has: Preconditioning is somewhat random (which has been solved with the facelift) and the fact that the drivers profile is not based on the key sucks.
EV6 is probably the best in tech, like the 800V system.
Have you had the issue with iccu? They are unfortunately quite common, friend of mine had it. They will fully fix it, but it takes up to month to fix because they don’t have spare parts.
I have Seat Mii, and I also think it is best car purchase that I have ever made
Plenty of good European EVs as well. From a Porsche Taycan to a Dacia Spring, a wide selection. Including wagons/combis and vans.
The Japanese also have good ones, especially Nissan. Leaf and Ariya are decent. Honda kinda gave up and Toyota is indeed terrible, even the Lexus line is behind.
Looking forward to Tesla reporting Q2 earnings next month. I assume another round of disastrous numbers paired up with some vaporware distraction. Perhaps they can keep this charade going, but at some point reality will catch up.
If you think Xi Jinping is dictating what BYD does with their cars then you don’t understand the fundamentals as to why China managed to attract so much foreign investment and got to where they are now in the first place.
chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 11:48
collapse
Foreign investment was because of cheap labor and companies being subsidized by the communist government…
BYD might make a better car than Tesla, but saying that a Chinese company isn’t “under the control of Xi Jinping”, the guy who crushed Hong Kong for having too much independence and wants to do the same with Taiwan, is laughable.
That’s actually a bit of a myth you know. Labour in China used to be dirt cheap 30 years ago but that’s not the case now. You need experts to build cars and they demand an appropriate salary. They probably don’t get paid as much as they would in the west but they’re not being paid pennies an hour either. However the idea that China is cheap has persisted.
There’s a reason that Apple doesn’t make the iPhone there anymore. It was getting too expensive ie they were being asked to pay for a decent wage, and they weren’t prepared to.
chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 22:26
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I was more saying cheap “when companies moved in”. Now it just has the workforce and supply chain knowledge/infrastructure because of those investments.
Corporate fucktard assholes are running out of cheap labor around the world. They keep moving it around, but eventually there won’t be any place to go.
but saying that a Chinese company isn’t “under the control of Xi Jinping”, the guy who crushed Hong Kong for having too much independence and wants to do the same with Taiwan, is laughable.
Just take that sentence at face value and consider the ridiculousness of actually believing the guy alone has that amount of crushing power.
You’re just regurgitating unfounded US propaganda which, this being Lemmy, is very unfortunate to see.
Nobody of right mind takes this at face value. This isn’t a pro wrestling heavyweight championship belt, with Jinping suplexing the Hong Kong protestors.
It’s obviously as head of an autoritarian communist regime, using corona measures and a militarized police to suppress people for the extravagant act of desiring freedom from the CCP.
Yes, Xi Jinping is powerful as the Chairman of the party, but the communist party of China is not the military, and there is a fair amount of decentralization in decision making.
Further, the guy above goes “look at how Xi is suplexing Taiwan?!?!” even though he isn’t because guess what, he doesn’t actually have the power to do so.
Also, none of this has anything to do with the topic of EV production, which is in the hands of a private company which largely operates independently of the government, much like millions of other companies that operate in China.
Which is why I said the dude is just spewing brainless US state propaganda and Red Herring.
Independent untill the party decides they’re not independent. (Eg).
Again another non-sequitor that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Nobody disagrees that China doesn’t like people publicly criticizing their government.
That has rigorously NOTHING to do with the normal operation of companies that do not engage with politics in China, which is what I was talking about before you barged in.
Also, it is the US that has been kidnapping people into unmarked vans and arresting people at airport, detaining them for however long, and deporting them to countries that aren’t their own for as little as having a meme criticizing the current US regime.
So really, which one is the dictatorship?
The sooner we stop seeing China as enemies, the better. We need them more than ever now that the US has decided to go full mask off.
BYD is free to operate as it wishes in China, along with several millions of other companies. And their products are good.
There’s no such thing. A person nor company can unilaterally decide “not to engage with politics”, as politics engages with them in thousands of ways. The best they can do is self-censorship, which, even when successfull, is in itself a form of political engagement.
which one is the dictatorship?
False dichotomy 🙄
We need them more than ever now that the US has decided to go full mask off.
Who’s “we” in this case? And why would they “need” someone now, because of stuff in the US?
Using “us”, as if your opinion is consensus :) And at the same time ignoring all the abuse resulting from your point of view.
It’s indeed a pointless conversation if one party can simply ignore all the hurt, pain and destruction their proposal causes.
chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 22:24
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“Unfounded US propaganda”.
Are you saying China DIDN’T aggressively take over Hong Kong and all of the businesses that operated there?
Xi is the head of the government in a totalitarian, communist regime. Just because he might be “leaving BYD alone” or whatever today does not mean that couldn’t change in an instant.
The United States is its own form of screwed up and is an absolute mess. I’m not sitting over here going 'US good. China bad". I’m making the point they’re both bad in different ways.
Are you saying China DIDN’T aggressively take over Hong Kong and all of the businesses that operated there?
Uh, i kinda am, yeah.
Last time I checked, Hong Kong is still a tax haven in the middle of Asia. Western companies are still opening offshore subsidiaries and bank accounts there to engage in tax evasion, and the welfare system is still as pitiful as it was before China took over.
Retirees living in literal cages or under bridges is still common, and the same 3-4 families that ran Hong Kong’s banking, industry and real estate are still in control like they’ve always been.
China took control of Hong Kong on paper only. By any economic metrics, everything stayed the same.
Watch the RichRebuilds review of Chinese EVs. There is a lot of “make it look good” in their engineering, like massive painted brake calipers…that are a single piston. The cars probably aren’t as quality as other EVs, but the prices, specs, and niche features are very compelling. I’d definitely consider one in the US. Anything that isn’t a Tesla or a massive crossover would be great.
Kazel@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Jun 10:22
nextcollapse
HAHA
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
on 26 Jun 10:30
nextcollapse
I used to like and look up to SpaceX for the interesting stuff that they build,
but nowadays i don’t care anymore. The company can fail for all i care. Musk spoiled it.
The tipping point, for me personally, was when Musk seriously threatened to slash public spending in February this year. It shows a clear disrespect to the people, and frankly, a sociopathic attitude.
Musk had everything, lots of money, lots of fame, lots of influence, but he threw it all away when he decided to threaten the wellbeing and lifelyhood of a lot of people just so that rich assholes can make an extra buck through tax cuts.
I wonder what continues to motivate the uber rich to seek more wealth-you simply can’t buy any more tangible amount of happiness through material or influence after a point.
Once you have enough money, anything you do makes you money.
Elon blew 44 billion or Twitter, axed the servers, staff, and the name, and he was able to leverage that into a government job where he could kill investigations into his companies years later. You could say it’s intelligence, but I’d say it’s a combination of luck, and the resources to blow 44 billion and not have it affect you personally in any way.
barneypiccolo@lemm.ee
on 26 Jun 13:42
nextcollapse
SpaceX should be nationalized. We paid for it, it’s ours.
Who in the current admin would you like to see run it? Because one of them would if it were nationalized. Who would be your pick?
barneypiccolo@lemm.ee
on 26 Jun 14:34
nextcollapse
It would be under NASA, but the argument is moot, since it wouldn’t happen under a MAGA Nazi administration. It will have to wait until Americans take back our government. Then we can nationalize Space X, confiscate the DOGE Goblin’s fortune, and deport him back to South Africa.
The current regime is full of ignorant buffoons but at least in that case it would normally be temporary.
In the private model where the gov pays for everything anyway, the taxpayer pays the cost of doing the thing plus whatever profit the oligarch wants to make and you have no way of switching to another oligarch should the current one becomes unacceptable. There is simply no upside to SpaceX as a private entity
Alwaysnownevernotme@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 19:08
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Government agencies can’t bribe as good. Our politicians are whipped dogs who sell the free world for less than an F-150 a year in kickbacks.
VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 26 Jun 21:25
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For those maybe blissfully ignorant of car culture that’s an F-150 (the grocery getter for fragile egos) oversized pickup truck , and not some fighter jet.
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Jun 22:13
collapse
He’s basically gutting NASA so it can be reduced to a taxpayer-funded corporate subsidy for greedy billionaires and giant corps. They’re killing everyone’s dreams and inspiration.
3dcadmin@lemmy.relayeasy.com
on 26 Jun 10:42
nextcollapse
Here in the UK Musk is just seen as an idiot. Some decent European EV solutions coming along but the Chinese cars are so much better value than Tesla OR the main European makes. Couldn’t happen to a nicer megalomaniac and as a plus I love seeing the monthly SpaceX explosions
Even before the current political situation I wouldn’t have bought a Tesla. They have a documented quality problem and not very good customer service at least outside of the US.
Why would I buy a car that is not only more likely than most to break but when it does break it’s hard to get fixed. Spare parts are notoriously hard to get hold of and you usually have to deal with Tesla directly which is a problem because they don’t have a lot of dealerships in the UK. Also they won’t come to you, so if your car won’t start you have to arrange a pickup.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 18:01
collapse
They have terrible customer service in the US too. I think it’s their business model: find people who enjoy being treated like an asshole and sell them overpriced shit.
Data published Wednesday by ACEA found that Tesla’s car sales in the European Union, Britain and the European Free Trade Association fell to 13,863 units in May, down 27.9% year on year.
Tesla’s European market share also dropped to 1.2% from 1.8% in May 2024.
European/other than China EV makers also did well, that this and other headlines this year, intentionally obfuscate. The combination of both above numbers means overall EV growth was about 25%. 93% is non US/China.
RedditIsDeddit@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 21:35
nextcollapse
This is one of the reason that the USA being heavy handed with Chinese is going to bite us in the ass. While in the USA, we bury our heads in the sand and GM, Tesla and etc. all crank out $95,000 giant trucks/SUVs, some companies in China are making very, very affordable vehicles. These aren’t necessarily garbage either – there’s models available for almost any price point.
What WOULD be really smart and forward thinking is if in the USA, the domestic brands also make some affordable models to get EV more popular. However, they are addicted to fat profit margins, and thanks to all the protectionism, they don’t need to worry about offshore models being “better”.
While other nations either develop and/or import affordable EVs, we’re effectively banning them. This is all going to end up with a giant wake up call for American auto-manufacturers when the protections/tariffs are ultimately lifted and they HAVE to compete.
I think it would be great if the tariffs came with huge incentives for domestic manufacturers and motivated them to be competitive. Instead, it’s just letting them segment the market for a few years and make a killing. Who loses? The people…
ScoffingLizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Jun 22:11
nextcollapse
This is the real reason for tarrifs. Forcing citizens into paying ridiculous prices so biliionares can circle jerk about how much more power they can get. They’re scourges and bottomless voids of resources and misery.
CatDogL0ver@lemmy.world
on 26 Jun 23:28
nextcollapse
It was just like what happened to the American auto industry before. Instead of listening to the market, we tell the market what they should buy.
We are losing our edge. People don’t want expensive cars. They want affordable, reliable cars. It was just like earlier Japanese cars. Japan is losing their edge too.
Not just people, the economy will end up paying the price.
Tariffs have horrible second order effects.
Every companies outputs is some other companies inputs.
American companies end up locked out of more affordable vehicles as inputs. That cost then gets baked into its output, which is some other company’s input. Then just keep following that chain.
The best broad blanket tariffs can hope to do is trade long term competitiveness for some short term price increase.
Americans will wonder why other nations eat our lunch in the coming decades. Well that foreign company could buy the cheaper machine to produce the widget, their raw materials cost less to deliver because the transit company that ships it in charges a better rate because they have lower vehicle overhead. Since they have 2 dozen suppliers for their components both foreign and domestic they are forced to compete on quality and price.
American companies will become even more bloated and inefficient
threaded - newest
i hate musk, but i am not wild about our dependence on china either, so i am not really sure who to root for in this fight…
Competition is good for the consumer. More options from more players will encourage more charging infrastructure and (ostensibly) more innovation. It’s not just Elon Musk vs China. Every automaker that wants to sell cars in the USA is on notice. If they want to compete in the EV subcategory, they need to focus on price and performance. People want budget-conscious EVs.
Not super into cars but is there even any reason other than environmental friendliness to get an EV? Where I’m from, EVs are all wildly expensive compared to their combustion peers and they all frankly look really ugly to me. The coil whine of the EVs also drive me crazy.
They make decent “point A to point B” cars, but that’s about it. They take a long time to charge, and when that battery is due for replacement, it might just total the car.
which is, coincidentally, what most people need from a car ;)
It’s been shown again and again that evs require less maintenance.
Even the cheap ones accelerate faster, ride smoother, and are quieter. You don’t have to get oil changes, and the brakes don’t wear down as fast. Plus I can recharge at home, which is loads cheaper than buying gasoline.
And this is all with a relatively ancient Nissan Leaf, the new vehicles are all far better.
Oh, and let’s not forget that even very small air quality improvements have noticeable improvements in lung health! Humans were not meant to be breathing gasoline fumes or combustion exhaust.
My government just added a controversial extra tax on EVs because they tear up the roads and cause additional particles, because they are really heavy and most of them have a better than usual torque.
You can really see how road quality went to shit after EVs became mainstream.
Making batteries is also a really ugly business and far from environmental.
I live in an area where half the vehicles on the road are pickup trucks and giant SUV’S. A KIA EV2 isn’t doing any added harm to the roads here.
That is not even remotely why they added a tax on EVs. The reason they added the extra tax is because they make a ton of money by taxing gas and as EVs are gaining popularity they’re starting to see their tax revenues plummet. There is a nugget of truth in that some of those tax revenues are used to pay for maintaining the roads and that EVs do still put wear and tear on the roads, but it’s not that they’re destroying roads any more than any other car does.
If you’re seeing a drop in road quality it’s because your government isn’t paying to have the roads maintained like they have in the past, not because there are more EVs driving around.
*Puts on Rammstein - Amerika
I can’t find anything on such a tax?
I feel like there has been an uptick in pro oil bots in the past week. Oil is a pretty ugly business too? What is wrong with you people.
Bio gas and diesel are also renewable.
If you are a moron, ya, it is.
With average EU energy mix total carbon footprint of a biogas car is still only 3/4 of an equivalent electric vehicle after 10 years of use.
Additional weight of the vehicle and the costly battery production matters.
With average US east coast energy mix the EVs carbon footprint would be double that of a biogas car after 10 years of use.
You are a mouthpiece, I’m going to assume everything you say is a lie or grossly misrepresented. Post your sources, bootlicker.
Piip piip boop boop.
Evil nordic bot coming at you.
With my cheap over night tarrif (UK) I pay approximately 2p a mile, I’m planning a road trip to Europe soon and have calculated with a pay for discount EV charge card, I’ll average about 14p/mile. I’m saving between £60-£80 a month compared to my old diesel car, which pays off the charger install ~£900 in a year. Diesel price have dropped in the UK since I got mine.
For servicing it’s coolant every 3 years or so, and that pretty much it. We have a MOT in the UK, for every vehicle over 3 years old, then yearly, that covers more than what is needed on the yearly services for my car. Only thing it doesn’t cover is lubricate the charge port, but I think I’m ok with that
Also the cabin noise is almost silent, no gears, constant predictable acceleration, and I can plug anything I want in to the 240v outlet in the back seat
We are in the middle of a crisis. You don’t need an other reason.
You can either look ugly in an EV or drive straight towards dystopia in a cool looking ICE vehicle.
I mean I’m personally a public transport kinda person. I live somewhere where a car is really just a status symbol since even the cheapest car costs at least roughly 90k USD and most people take public transport.
Others have addressed your other questions, but I want to add that the “coil whine” that irritates you is probably the car’s slow-moving warning system. EVs are effectively silent at slow speeds because there is no engine noise or road noise, so they are required to make an annoying sound when maneuvering to get your attention. While it is an important safety feature, I agree some are very obnoxious.
I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same sound as it’s so high pitched that most people older than me are unable to even hear it while people my age or younger can clearly identify it. If that’s supposed to be a warning system, it doesn’t seem very good?
I mean, it’s also entirely possible you’ve heard a failing magnetic drive, a humming battery, or a squeeky mechanical thing like brakes or bearings. Those are all strong indicators of a significant problem with the car, and should be fixed immediately. But if you hear it every time, as soon as the car starts moving in a parking lot, that’s the safety feature.
except what is happening now is not really any kind of fair competition. the european manufacturers exported they know-how to china, which was strategic failure, it was stolen, and now it is sold back to us with the advantage of cheap chinese production.
they will ruin our production and we will be in a similar situation where we were during covid, when the political leadership were saluting the china cargo airplanes on tarmac, otherwise it would not bring us masks, syringes, or any other stuff whose production we had given up and outsourced to china
unless we turn the ship around quite soon, we will be regretting it soon and for a long time.
I would say go with whatever company that doesn’t have a CEO throwing Nazi salutes.
Yeah, the Chinese manufacturers are out to make money, and at least we know what to expect from them.
Besides, being profitable usually means making a better product than your competitors.
GASP!
You mean… Proper capitalism!?
Okay there’s a ton of spyware in the car, but - just . . don’t . . . connect it. Or whatever.
Which of them are you talking about?
Yes
Right.
I suspect you know this, and your post is sarcastic. But just in case:
Most cars have their own embedded SIMs nowadays. They’re already connected. You can’t disconnect them.
No, I haven’t bought a new car in many many years.
That’s absolutely unacceptable. I would have the dashboard pulled out in minutes. Wherever the modem is, it wouldn’t be there for long.
Hahahah, fuse go brrrr.
Jokes aside, they probably shut off the car if it can’t phone home within a certain time period.
That’s equivalent to buying a subscription to a car. I would never buy that car. That’s koo koo bananapants unsane.
Of course, I don’t have a facepals account either so - what do i know.
Yeah. I have a car that has telemetry. Sucks for privacy, but if I was going to commit a crime, I would just ******************************************************************************, use the system to obfuscate the data.
And you think ICE cars don’t have spyware these days?
I dunno, ICE cars weren’t on my list to start with. I assume.
I don’t know that they’re out to make money though. A lot of the Chinese manufacturers are now struggling due to the price war they instigated themselves. Huge production surplus but they pushed down the price so much they hardly make any money
I think a lot of it is also growing their market share and establishing their brand.
Brand recognition is important, but it’s a dangerous game operating mostly on government subsidies. Once you have established low prices it’s hard to reverse it
Competition is fierce, but they are not exactly struggling due to government subsidies/incentives. These are so extreme that Chinese manufacturers are over producing and dumping “used” EVs with zero mileage for export.
Similar to US agricultural dumping, this is a terrible policy for everyone, except for the beneficiaries of the subsidies, and maybe the overseas consumers who get cheap EVs in the short term.
China’s Zero-Mile ‘Used’ EVs Are Flooding Global Markets - insideevs.com/news/…/china-zero-mile-used-evs/
So support the country committing a genocide against the uyghurs? Because you think a salute is worse than a Holocaust, got it.
If you don’t see musk as one of the singular greatest threats to this planet, I dunno what to tell you. It is certainly not just the salute, that was just the most public he’s been about his true self. If I recall those Nazis had some thoughts on the Holocaust as well.
I really don’t. Putin, Kim Jong Un, Xi Jinping, all are actual threats. Musk doesn’t even register.
How many of those got up on stage with the seal of the president of the United States and did one of the most identifiable actions of the last true fascist regime? musk was able to spend $250 million to pretend to be president for a few months to kneecap the US government and kill all the investigations into his illegal dealings as well as reward his companies with lucrative government contracts. I’d love to see any of those tinpot dictators and “communist” leaders do that.
Putin is the head of the paper tiger Russia. If they didn’t have nukes the US probably would have steam rolled them back in 2014 when they took Crimea. If the world actually gave Ukraine the weapons and resources to do it, I have no doubt they could be at Moscow’s door in a couple months.
Kim Jung Un is the head of a pariah state who relies on worldwide aide so that his people don’t starve more than they already are starving.
Sure Xi is the head of the state in which there is obviously genocide happening, but he’s not running a car company, which is what this whole article is about.
Riiight. Listen, this isn’t going anywhere. You think a salute is worse than a genocide, musk is a greater threat than dictators with nukes, and there’s no way I’m going to change your mind. I’m going to peace out
In a couple months a drug fueled musk did to the US what Xi and Putin have been trying to do for decades. It most certainly wasn’t just his salute that made me think that.
You could change my mind if you brought any information to the table that shows how those two are worse than musk.
Enjoy your day.
Xi became president for life almost a decade ago, Putin ignored term limits in like 2008. Musk is failing to do what they have done, and he doesn’t even express any real power over the president given he hid his role from the courts and left the white house with a black eye.
And? I concede that both of them are doing their best to end US as a superpower, but when was the last time either of them cost the US $500 Billion in tax revenue as well putting 283,000 Americans out of work in just 4 months? Again this all goes back to a car company that isn’t run by Xi or Putin. Tesla is run by a Nazi.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/irs-cuts-doge-musk-watchdog-b2776213.html
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5278325-doge-layoffs-job-cuts-report/
You could make the argument that Russian interference helped give us Trump in 2016 and that Chinese Military run TikTok’s promotion helped him in 2024, so yes those two actually did do that pretty recently, yeah.
You sure could argue that. Correlation doesn’t equal causation. You could also contribute trump’s 2024 win to the 10 million less democrats who decided not to vote. I doubt all 10 million of those were because of tiktok.
musk didn’t own twitter or contribute $220 million to trump’s campaign in 2016 either.
No, correlation doesn’t equal causation, but causation certainly is causation, so maybe those violent dictatorships aren’t better than the third one they’re attempting to create.
Hahaha.
As opposed to supporting a country that… (fill in the blanks, there is an infinite supply)
With that level of indirection gymnastics, you can accuse anyone of anything.
(This comment written in the language of a brutally colonizing and genocidal empire.)
Canada?
They speak English too
Since you proudly champion the rights of Uyghur people, you are aware that the reeducation camps are closed since about 2022, right?
i am afraid it is just that most CEOs are sane enough to keep their embarrassing moments for their private life. do you think musk is the only narcissistic psychopath on drugs in the business world?
this is not advocating for musk, but it is important to be grounded in reality ;)
I have no doubt most CEOs are psychopaths, but they also don’t own a global Nazi mouthpiece like twitter, or have more money and resources than several small nations.
Feet firmly planted in reality, thanks. You definitely sound like your advocating for musk.
So did you mean “CEOs not throwing a Nazi salute” or “CEOs whose Nazi salutes don’t show up on your twitter feed”?
It seems you forgot what your argument is in a span of two rebuttals
You should work on your reading comprehension then
.
.
To be fair, I think most of USA is on recreational drugs, legal, illegal, or “prescription”. That shouldn’t matter as much compared to his other actions.
what he does in his free time is one thing (i don’t care about that), being high when he is
working for a governmentruining people’s lives and jobs is another.Everywhere is depndent on China, buy the car that isnt overtly a fascist car. They also suck.
that isn’t really an argument in favor of china 😂
China famously doesn’t have a far-right problem, unlike the EU or the USA, what are you talking about?
unless you for some reason like leftist dictator who would like to rule the world more than the right one, there isn’t really practical difference in this
China would love so much to rule the world, that’s why it hasn’t entered any war in the past 40+ years, and that’s why all countries in the global south are happy to enter the comparably advantageous economic deals and infrastructure investments that China offers in comparison with the magnificent western democracies.
How many countries has China bombed in the past 40 years? Let’s now make a list for the USA, see who wins!
As for “dictator”, look at the approval rates of Xi in China and compare them to those of Kid Starver in the UK, Trump in the US, or Macron in France. I guess democracy is best represented by the system that lets you choose which hateful ghoul will apply social austerity policy and invest 5% of GDP in NATO.
I agree until the last part. Democracies have more freedoms allowing for more accurate polling. There is also less fear of consequences for being open. Countries should be able to defend themselves, 5% is a step toward peace. The cold war never became hot because of the investment in defence.
Tell that to the millions of people the west murdered through bombing of Korea, Vietnam or Laos, the millions more murdered though US support of military dictators such as Suharto or Pinochet, or the millions who died through the de-stabilization of their countries such as Mosaddeq’s Iran, Guatemala or the outright invasion of Iraq. Ask those people what they think of the west’s military expenses over the past century.
Literally two days ago Mamdani won the mayoral elections against all polls, polls in the west are heavily manipulated. And literally last week a man was denied entry in the country due to having a picture of bald Vance. I happen to be Spanish, and in our super-democratic state we have literal political prisoners who had to free the country such as Carles Puigdemont due to political persecution and risking their lives in jail. The west is NOT more democratic than China at this point, and the trend is towards openness in China and towards fascism in the west.
The trend is toward openness in China? Just off the top of my head didnt Xi consolidate more power over the last 12 months and stop issuing economic statistics as a resukt of their trend?
I am not American, they are a shit hole country, they have never been much more but the veneer is wiped off now.
Those proxy wars are the example of it not getting hot. Russia and the US had so much military power no one risked direct attacks.
I do not support the US, Israel or any such shite but dont tell half a story and sum up with china is opening up.
Then what’s this?. I literally don’t know what you’re talking about.
Yes. China is progressively opening up, allowing things such as IShowSpeed to do livestreams of the country wherever he wants and granting him honorary visas, and spreading the contact of Chinese people with westerners through for example XiaoHongShu (RedNote) or TikTok, which is why the US wants to ban access to these apps. I’m not a US citizen either, I’m European, and the EU itself closed access to Russian media some months after the war started. You may or may not think that this is justified, but it’s quite literally the definition of “closing up”, and China is engaging in exactly the opposite.
I beg you tell the same to a Ukrainian or to a Vietnamese.
Show me the youth unemployment figures.
You missed the part where China hurried through a tiktok like curtain to silo users.
You must have also missed the social credit scoring. The HK protests.
This is textbook tolerance paradox stuff, either accept propaganda or you ae against free speech. Oligarchical authoritarian cunts should not have access into a foreign population, that is why Trump is in power. Are you telling me the EU has less press freedoms than Russia or China? Because closing the gap doesnt mean much if its by a tenth of a degree.
Its clear you are passionate and refusing to take on board an alternative view. There is nothing in what I have said that should lead you to reply with this. Understand proxy wars and realise that military spending kept the direct warfare cold.
Ukraine is atrocity that is only tied to the cold war by way of Russia continuing fighting it while the US got complacent and allowed their government to fall which lead to a lack of support/tacit support for Russia.
According to SCMP, “The urban jobless rate among those aged 16 to 24 – excluding students – fell to 15.8 per cent last month, down from 16.5 per cent in March, according to data released by the National Bureau of Statistics on Tuesday”. What’s your point? It literally says “released by the National Bureau of Statistics”, what’s the government hiding??
Can you source this claim, please?
This is a nothingburger made up by western bad-faith actors. There is no such thing as a social credit score in China. Unlike in the US, where you can go into your bank account to check your “good citizen meter” and see how likely you are to get a mortgage.
Nothing compared to ICE kidnapping people from their literal homes masked, putting them into unmarked vans, and deporting them without due process or putting them in prison.
So, China forbidding western media is oppressive and dictatorial because western press good, but the West forbidding Russian media is cool and based because Russian media bad? You’re only showing your bias here if you think western media has any semblance of objectivity, especially when it comes to international politics.
Not than Russia, Russia is further advanced towards fascism than the EU, so it’s worse. But China is getting better and the EU is getting worse.
It’s clear that you only care about deaths if they take place on the first world. You want to avoid “direct confrontation” because you care more about Europeans and Americans than you do about Vietnamese, Korean or Iraqi. You take pride in how much the “military expenditure in the cold war prevented direct conflict” without caring about how much more conflict it stoked outside the west.
False. The invasion of Ukraine is a policy pursued by the Russian goverment as a way to preserve the sphere of influence that the west is eroding each day through NATO and economic/soft power. You can condemn it, it’s cruel and abhorrent, but it’s not exclusively Russia to blame, and in 10 years from now this will be clear to everyone.
of course. the poor russia was forced to attack the neigbouring country. fuck off, troll.
there is no such thing as “sphere of influence” you are entitled to. your country end at your borders.
That guy is a fool man, I gave him enough time.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred-Year_Marathon
are they happy? and are the deals advantageous? can you back up your claims? 😂
oh yes, the approval rating of a dictator in a dictatorship is very valid metric 😂. (hint hint: they are irrelevant even if they were not fixed. any kind of approval rating bears zero relevance to whether the country is a totalitarian state or not, or whether the country is a threat to its neighbours or not).
So, no wars, got it. Just overtaking the US through soft power and economic prowess, lmao.
finally. it took you some time, but better late than never. you are the only one talking about wars as if it means something.
They manufacture everything, they are just people chilling in their country. Say what you will about their form of government but BYD havent invested in hurting people for no reason.
The article title is a bit sensational. The share of the market for all Chinese EV is 5,6%. It’s not ( yet ? ) a tsunami.
Telsas total european market share this month is 1.2%, down from 1.8% last may. The chinese market share is 5.9%, not 5.6%.
5.9% vs 1.2% is a 5x sales rate for chinese cars versus Teslas. According to the article, china doubled its EU market share in the last year, while Tesla lost 30% of its market share in the same time period.
The title is not sensational. If anything, your comment is a bit misleading by not listing the tesla EU market share.
You are comparing Tesla, a full electric car maker to « Chinese cars » which includes multiple brands and all engine types. Only one-third of the cars that the Chinese carmakers sold in Europe during the first quarter were electric.
Root for better public transport and active cities instead of car dependency :)
The public transport bus I take to and from work is a Chinese made electric. It’s a Yutong E15.
How common are these in Denmark? 😮 don’t feel like I’ve seen one, but then again it’s not like I study the make before I get in the bus
This specific model I don’t know, but in Copenhagen all public transport buses will be electric by the end of 2026.
I remember that one getting tested in my hometown.
I don’t want to be like China though /s
i am lucky, my city has excellent public transport, that doesn’t stop people from using cars though. be it because of pure habit, or because public transport is not solution for everything.
so i’d rather if our european car industry wasn’t decimated by the chinese one.
Living in the boonies, I’m never going to get a bus going by every ten minutes so a solid market for good EVs is still what I root for.
Of course, public transport has a limit and we can root for both as well, including protected bike lanes even in the boonies like we successfully see in the Netherlands
I’m somewhat hopeful, in the last ten years, new and renovated country roads have been getting dedicated bike lanes behind the guardrails. Miles away from the excellent, completely separate infrastructure the dutch have, but its a start.
Buy european? I mean if that’s an option.
There are lots of EVs by European car manufacturers. The problem is that they have trouble competing on price with the Chinese ones.
You’ ve been explained this whole scenario years ago when Putin was pushing for Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok.
That was EU chance to get dirt cheap energy and raw materials.
And now - EU heavy industry is dying, car manufacturers are sold to China one by one. Decision made decade+ ago.
what?
It would be nice if there was a way to rip out any questionable software/electric components from modern cars and replace it with something open source.
USA could have spent money developing an electrified economy but the republicans are focusing on bringing back coal mining and reshoring shoe manufacturing instead.
This admin has set the USA back 100 years.
ETA - what I mean is that China is rampaging on in electrification, developing manufacturing skills, infrastructure, and design/engineering/technology around renewables and electrification. Europe is thinking about it but not going crazy to the extent China is, because legacy - China doesn’t have 100 years of cars and 150 years of trains; they’re building new. USA meanwhile is actively regressing under Republican policies.
Especially when you see some of the tech being rocked in Asian cities
But… but… those good ol’ days felt so good! We need to relive those days!
Again. They already enshrined “billionaires get all the money” in the one legislative victory of trumps first term.
They already enshrined "billionaires get all the money" in 2008 when the banks got the bailouts instead of the people
The problem is systemic, it didn’t start with Trump. He’s just way more flagrant.
Which kind of blows my mind. Coal miners should love EVs. There was a story in the news a few years ago about how nice it was for the miners to help someone in an EV, as if they should be mortal enemies.
Non-EV cars don’t run on coal, they run on gasoline. EVs on the other hand can run on coal, natural gas, solar, wind, you name it - and still are more energy efficient than cars burning gasoline. In a sane world, coal miners would be throwing their support behind electric vehicles. The utility companies seem to understand this, but seems like the support hasn’t made its way up the supply chain.
Of course US trucks run on coal. I see them rolling coal all the time! They cant roll coal if it wasnt coal. Duh…
This isn’t exclusively a problem of the new administration, or the previous. All administrations since the late 20th century have been compliant in allowing the offshoring of most industry
It’s not just industry. Now they’re killing the development of skills and knowledge in engineering (hardware, software) and design
I think my glasses are smudged
Apparantly they have also been removing bike lanes in some area’s….
Sure. That’s the reason.
I don’t think that’s what they meant. I think they are just saying that people are still buying EVs, but they are just going to Chinese and other manufacturers instead of buying a Tesla. The article specifically calls out the stupid shit Elon has been doing.
Ah. Good to know- I didn’t read the article, but that’s kind of my point, really. Most people don’t, and media outlets know that. The headline is all that “carries”. A better headline would include the Nazi stuff AND Chinese EVs. I think they deliberately avoided that and tucked it in the article.
My dude you can't admit you didn't read the article then defend the fact that you didn't read it like that. Just read it and then comment lol
My comment is about the headline. Yes?
I read that. Everyone read that. That’s what my comment is referring to.
You could just say, “you’re right, I probably should have.”
Try it sometime, it’s nice.
“the headline is wrong”
Wahhhh you didn’t read the article!
“that’s true. you’re right. I probably should have. Where I would then return to the single sentence that I’m referring to and nothing will have changed. Do you even understand what I’m talking about? Because that would be nice.”
The headline to me clearly is stating that people are not buying Teslas and are buying alternative Chinese based EVs instead. I think that anyone that’s heard Elon’s name over the past 6 months can read between the lines and understand the causation here.
Well - I would hope. But that’s not the same as putting it in there is it.
“Tesla sales drop as EU consumers choose Chinese brands plus Musk is y’know WINK”
I mean, I can see why they didn’t go with that one but still. There are plenty of people who don’t understand Elmo is an out-and-out nazi, cozy with putin and Peter Thiel and will destroy the country as soon as possible. Not mentioning him and his drugged-out asinine ideas in the headline is a missed opportunity.
The title isn’t there to tell the whole story though. It should give a high level summary and then the details are in the article. If you hypothetically put something like what you suggested, it still doesn’t give all of the context, and the title would need to be longer to include the history of Musk, his drug use, his position with Tesla, etc, and you can’t put that all in the title. I’m all for dunking on that Nazi whenever we can, but I personally don’t think that the title of this article deserves any criticism, especially in the age of clickbait titles that don’t give anything, this one is decently descriptive.
I’ll give you that. I just want more. Elmo’s such a stain that not factoring it directly to Tesla-going-down stories seems like skimping.
Which is important because about a year ago the headlines were saying EV sales were collapsing. In fact, it was just Tesla having less market share of new EVs sold because other manufacturers got off their ass.
Not even sure it’s that true though. Afaik BYD is only the 14th most popular car in Denmark, and European brands have risen from around ~28% last year to ~40% this year. Sure, Chinese carmakers have had some growth - but we’re talking in the order of something between 2 - 4% of the market. Might be more popular in other countrues
I wonder where you’re getting this information. BYD alone is second worldwide if you account for the US market, and 1st if you don’t.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/ca69c18e-7147-4f59-a79b-cc77ec2f5972.png">
59% of all EVs sold in January of this year were Chinese.
Which owes to how gigantic the Chinese market is. They now have a 5% market share for new cars in Europe - which this article is about. It doesn’t matter if they top global sales just because there are so many Chinese buyers
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/87ae78f6-0606-40bd-bf0a-2aae4e4e2274.gif">
Hitler was “incendiary” and “political” but I think there’s a four-letter word so much better, so much more concise, that this wording is actual disinformation.
Journalists do Nazi what you’re talking about.
CNBC didn’t here. So it’s a lie.
I own BYD and it is a great car. Very pleased with it.
how many cameras does it have? be pleased about all your, and your neighbourhoods everydays be uploaded to china, to train face recognition and whatever else
I hate teslas, but byd’s are not even slightly better in my eyes.
I don’t like the feeling that we may never see a consumer friendly EV anymore, but only ones that exploit their users in any ways they can
China can have all the images they want from my car’s. I don’t live in China or anywhere near them. I’m more concerned about US made EVs and their surveillance because I travel there regularly, and they are digging hard on everything for people coming into the US.
I live neither in china or the usa, but I don’t want myself be recorded by either of their appliances that I use. and that naturally also extends to my neighbors and wherever I go.
its quite interesting how many people suddenly started to love mass surveillance
You can minimize surveillance, but right now it’s impossible to avoid it completely. The next best thing is is keeping whatever you can private, and what you can’t, try to have it sent to someone irrelevant, like in my case are the Chinese.
Don’t know why exactly are you downvoted but this is exactly what is going on as cars get more ”connected”, following Tesla & BYD lead. Just like with phones at the moment, everything tries to spy on you a little to tap into that sweeet targeted ad revenue, or something else.
For example I bet the insurance companies love to have some driver behaviour data about you, and the big retail likes to know where/what time you are on the move (though they already get it from the dozens of apps on your phone that have access to location data, like Google Maps).
It’s very weird. maybe I was a bit too harsh in the beginning, but I don’t think it was nearly this bad.
there are ways to clean it out of a phone, but cars are much more closed down, and if I had to guess they are probably even protected against you cleaning it out software-wise by safety regulations
Heard it can be hard / expensive if you need to order spare parts and stuff like that. Anything to that?
That’s halfway true, depending on the part, and where you live. But the warranty they provide (at least in my country) covers everything that you don’t damage yourself, and the warranty is transferable if you sell it still being under warranty.
The only expense I’ve had with mine are new tires and correcting some body scratches caused by other people (and public charging if on long road trips, because I charge at home with solar power).
We have 2 BYD plug-in EVs in our house, absolutely delighted with the brand. Before that I had a Model 3 Tesla, which I could not get rid of fast enough.
Honor where honor is due, Tesla did open the door for mainstreaming EVs, there’s no doubt about it, but it was through marketing based on gimmicks, not through quality products. But the reality is that BYD, Xiaomi, Avatr and a few other Chinese manufacturing cars are way better value and even quality than their Occidental counterparts.
And in the US we just block foreign options because it is gov policy to artificially support specific corporations.
I think that’s the invisible hand of the market. The visible part is the products you don’t get to have.
the country of free market capitalism…
Oddly libertarians never acknowledge that market leaders ask for theses things. The biggest threat to the free market are capitalists themselves.
American libertarianism is just a form of nationalism mixed with a strong dose of “don’t nose into muh life”
There are 2 types of libertarians.
One group is comprised of people who think the government should basically keep the military going, and handle foreign relations when that doesn’t impede private citizens.
The other group is just Republicans who don’t like being called Republicans.
They know, they just have too much invested in their 401k to think about their own best interests. Sold themselves and their future families for a couple more % points of growth yearly.
I don’t think that has ever been true, really. Nor should it be, Laissez Faire is a trainwreck waiting to happen, probably literally and figuratively.
Textbooks will tell you that the USA, and other countries like China and Russia, are a regulated “Market System” which in some markets teeters on strict Oligopoly.
it’s only true in propaganda.
I think it also has to do with the economy, not just nazi salutes. Its a bad job market, people dont have money, so luxary cars are not going to be attractive.
Also there is hardly any reason to buy a Tesla… Volvo recharge and others are better cars, made by actual car companies with a good reputation for quality.
it definitely has to do when musk being a nazi.
Tesla used to be the brand, the good quality car, the one that you want to get.
(at least that was how the public saw it, car affictionados don’t count)
now it’s just cringe
Tesla has NEVER been the good quality car. Ever.
Tesla was the techy car. The fast car. The fun car. The virtue signaling car. The convienent car. Lots of things, but they have never been the good quality car.
Idk why are you being downvoted. Musk being a nazi is the last of the problems for Tesla. They had being outcompete by BYD in every measure.
Me, my friends, my colleagues are the target audience for Model 3/Y’s. I drive a Model 3 and some colleagues do as well. Pretty much all of them and myself say the same thing: The cars top the list in terms of value versus price and has the features we want and need, but we will not buy or (company) lease a Tesla (again) due to the nazi in charge. Simple as that.
At this point, people don’t even take Tesla’s into consideration anymore due to the nazi. So I would say that’s far worse than the competition with BYD.
Exactly the same for me and my circle. I got a model 3 and got at least 3 colleagues and friends to buy one after a test drive.
I won’t sell it now because it’s still a good car and I would lose a ton of money to replace it with something equivalent, but I put a fuck elon sticker on it, canceled the connectivity, avoid superchargers when possible and no longer recommend it to people.
I’m looking for a second car and used Teslas are crazy value right now but out of principle they are out of the question. Probably will go for a Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, VW ID.3 or BMW i3.
The mentioned cars are somewhat outdated.
You might also want to consider newer models like Renault 5, Skoda Elroq or Hyundai Ioniq.
Fair point, but I’m looking to buy used (i3 hasn’t been made for a few years already).
We bought a second hand i3 (2014) model for my SO to drive to work and back (short distances). The range is objectively horrible (about 100 km), but sufficient for my SO’s needs. Overall, we love the car! It’s so much fun to drive, and very efficient due to its light carbon fiber chassis. The car does everything we expect of it and we run it very cheap.
Such a waste BMW didn’t iterate on the i3/i8 sooner. They would’ve knocked Tesla out of the water before they could even learn how to swim.
That’s exactly our requirement, if budget allows even getting the 90Ah model for 150km. Plus I love the looks, weird and futuristic. Thanks for sharing!
Telsa used to be a status symbol, and sexy.
But then their chief chap couldn’t seem to publicly pronounce the popular phrase “Nazi’s suck and I wish to have nothing to do with them”.
Now Telsa is an anti-status symbol.
There are plenty of Europeans that still have money. These are aimed at the upper upper classes and people in those strata have not been feeling the economic pinch the way many of us have.
Currently only proper options for EV is either Tesla, Korean EV’s (KIA, Hyundai) or Chinese. European and japanese EV’s are imo shit at the moment. Teslas I will avoid like plague, due to Nazis. KIA’s and Hyundai’s are so hard to get, so I am really considering getting BYD, Polestar or XPeng.
Eh, ID7 and A6 are getting there. BMW i4 ain’t bad either.
All those are unfortunately so expensive here that I can only dream. And in my opinion over priced also.
Why’s that? I drove a Cupra Born last week, pretty decent imo. I also drove a VW ID3 and a BMW i3. So far the only European EV I didn’t like was the Audi e-tron. I haven’t driven a Korean or Chinese EV yet, so I can’t really compare. What do you prefer about them?
I currently drive Seat Mii, which is good small EV for city, but for long ranges VW and BMW are behind. Audi’s EV have been disasters. Cupras look good, but because I already have small EV, it doesn’t fit my use case .
ID’s could be ok, but they are over priced in my opinion (at least here).
Edit: for context id4’s starting price is 43k€ here in Finland. 60k€ for id7.
Edit2: Ok started looking those Chinese brands prices also if you buy them here and they are also priced in same range, so ID might be option then also
The Ford Mach E is a good EV.
Only heard good things about them, but aren’t they few generation’s old now. Not that next gen is always better, but EV’s have gone quite big generational steps.
Edit: and for context I drove Seat Mii at the moment and I love it to pieces, but it works only in city, not long range.
I think it would be silly to assume Ford isn’t updating the Mach E as it continues to produce it.
I have a Cadillac lyriq and I love it.
The small Renault’s are actually more than decent EVs and can be compared to the Hyundai Inster.(With the later being the closest to a “high quality EV for everyone” I have seen. Fantastic car, small, comparable cheap, secure. They need to get a bit cheaper still,but we are getting closer)
If you are filthy rich the Porsches are decent, same goes for some of the BMW. The Nissan Arya is also okayish, so are Mercedes.
But yeah, Korea has the absolute king of the hill atm. I drive an EV6 (pre facelift). And honestly? It’s the most “fun” and “comfortable” car I ever had - and I used to have lots of expensive company cars in the past (Audi A4,A5,A6, BMW 5, Volvo), often with "lights and sirens " installed and drove Seat,Skoda,Hyundai, Volvo privately.
None of them were as fun. None of fhem were as versatile and comfortable. And funny enough I safe enormous amounts of money.
And all the downsides people worry about? So far I didn’t have any.
Charging? Absolutely no issue - beside the fact that my sparky is shit and I still don’t have a home box (but a 200 bucks mobile box off Amazon helps). Even with long distances it’s no issue - even in remote locations I had a chance to charge,often easier to find than petrol. And on regular trips it takes as much time to go to the toilet and get me a coffee. Which I would also do with petrol… So in fact I save a few minutes. Even under these circumstances I pay half compared to what I payed for petrol.
Battery issues? The car is used. So far: Zero degradation. We had it assessed by a professional company recently.
The only two issues it has: Preconditioning is somewhat random (which has been solved with the facelift) and the fact that the drivers profile is not based on the key sucks.
EV6 is probably the best in tech, like the 800V system.
Have you had the issue with iccu? They are unfortunately quite common, friend of mine had it. They will fully fix it, but it takes up to month to fix because they don’t have spare parts.
I have Seat Mii, and I also think it is best car purchase that I have ever made
Nope, no issues so far, but it’s new enough to already have received the new units directly.
Plenty of good European EVs as well. From a Porsche Taycan to a Dacia Spring, a wide selection. Including wagons/combis and vans.
The Japanese also have good ones, especially Nissan. Leaf and Ariya are decent. Honda kinda gave up and Toyota is indeed terrible, even the Lexus line is behind.
I’m still mad at Toyota because they’ve kept pushing hybrid cards instead of making great EVs.
Good, continue with the downward spiral.
Looking forward to Tesla reporting Q2 earnings next month. I assume another round of disastrous numbers paired up with some vaporware distraction. Perhaps they can keep this charade going, but at some point reality will catch up.
Just give Elon more of some new drug. /s
Laced with fentanyl.
Is gonna go up, Elon said they’ll have full autonomous this year! /s
What a downfall Tesla
Chinese electric cars are just better. BYD is what Tesla wanted to be, but actually fulfills its promises. Plus it isn’t ran by a nazi dictator.
I uh… you sure about that dictator thing? xi jinping enters the chat
If you think Xi Jinping is dictating what BYD does with their cars then you don’t understand the fundamentals as to why China managed to attract so much foreign investment and got to where they are now in the first place.
Foreign investment was because of cheap labor and companies being subsidized by the communist government…
BYD might make a better car than Tesla, but saying that a Chinese company isn’t “under the control of Xi Jinping”, the guy who crushed Hong Kong for having too much independence and wants to do the same with Taiwan, is laughable.
That’s actually a bit of a myth you know. Labour in China used to be dirt cheap 30 years ago but that’s not the case now. You need experts to build cars and they demand an appropriate salary. They probably don’t get paid as much as they would in the west but they’re not being paid pennies an hour either. However the idea that China is cheap has persisted.
There’s a reason that Apple doesn’t make the iPhone there anymore. It was getting too expensive ie they were being asked to pay for a decent wage, and they weren’t prepared to.
I was more saying cheap “when companies moved in”. Now it just has the workforce and supply chain knowledge/infrastructure because of those investments.
Corporate fucktard assholes are running out of cheap labor around the world. They keep moving it around, but eventually there won’t be any place to go.
Just take that sentence at face value and consider the ridiculousness of actually believing the guy alone has that amount of crushing power.
You’re just regurgitating unfounded US propaganda which, this being Lemmy, is very unfortunate to see.
Nobody of right mind takes this at face value. This isn’t a pro wrestling heavyweight championship belt, with Jinping suplexing the Hong Kong protestors.
It’s obviously as head of an autoritarian communist regime, using corona measures and a militarized police to suppress people for the extravagant act of desiring freedom from the CCP.
But even that is incorrect.
Yes, Xi Jinping is powerful as the Chairman of the party, but the communist party of China is not the military, and there is a fair amount of decentralization in decision making.
Further, the guy above goes “look at how Xi is suplexing Taiwan?!?!” even though he isn’t because guess what, he doesn’t actually have the power to do so.
Also, none of this has anything to do with the topic of EV production, which is in the hands of a private company which largely operates independently of the government, much like millions of other companies that operate in China.
Which is why I said the dude is just spewing brainless US state propaganda and Red Herring.
I think you’re the only one reading it that way. The rest of us understand that it happens within a context of an autoritarian regime.
Independent untill the party decides they’re not independent. (Eg).
Again another non-sequitor that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Nobody disagrees that China doesn’t like people publicly criticizing their government.
That has rigorously NOTHING to do with the normal operation of companies that do not engage with politics in China, which is what I was talking about before you barged in.
Also, it is the US that has been kidnapping people into unmarked vans and arresting people at airport, detaining them for however long, and deporting them to countries that aren’t their own for as little as having a meme criticizing the current US regime.
So really, which one is the dictatorship?
The sooner we stop seeing China as enemies, the better. We need them more than ever now that the US has decided to go full mask off.
BYD is free to operate as it wishes in China, along with several millions of other companies. And their products are good.
There’s no such thing. A person nor company can unilaterally decide “not to engage with politics”, as politics engages with them in thousands of ways. The best they can do is self-censorship, which, even when successfull, is in itself a form of political engagement.
False dichotomy 🙄
Who’s “we” in this case? And why would they “need” someone now, because of stuff in the US?
We as in Europeans, which I assume most of the user base here to be, unlike Reddit. Sorry if my assumption bothers you.
I don’t get the abused spouse like logic, where because you get out of one bad relationship, you’d need to start a new one?
China is a bad relationship? I’ve got some bad news for you but 90% of what you own is made in China.
It’s an exploitative autoritarian regime, institutionalising severe human rights abuses (1).
That’s not news. It’s not because an abuser buys you gifts, that there’s no abuse going on?
Yeah, this conversation is pointless. Feel free to isolate yourself, the rest of us are still gonna try to work with what the world can offer.
Using “us”, as if your opinion is consensus :) And at the same time ignoring all the abuse resulting from your point of view.
It’s indeed a pointless conversation if one party can simply ignore all the hurt, pain and destruction their proposal causes.
“Unfounded US propaganda”.
Are you saying China DIDN’T aggressively take over Hong Kong and all of the businesses that operated there?
Xi is the head of the government in a totalitarian, communist regime. Just because he might be “leaving BYD alone” or whatever today does not mean that couldn’t change in an instant.
The United States is its own form of screwed up and is an absolute mess. I’m not sitting over here going 'US good. China bad". I’m making the point they’re both bad in different ways.
Uh, i kinda am, yeah.
Last time I checked, Hong Kong is still a tax haven in the middle of Asia. Western companies are still opening offshore subsidiaries and bank accounts there to engage in tax evasion, and the welfare system is still as pitiful as it was before China took over.
Retirees living in literal cages or under bridges is still common, and the same 3-4 families that ran Hong Kong’s banking, industry and real estate are still in control like they’ve always been.
China took control of Hong Kong on paper only. By any economic metrics, everything stayed the same.
Watch the RichRebuilds review of Chinese EVs. There is a lot of “make it look good” in their engineering, like massive painted brake calipers…that are a single piston. The cars probably aren’t as quality as other EVs, but the prices, specs, and niche features are very compelling. I’d definitely consider one in the US. Anything that isn’t a Tesla or a massive crossover would be great.
HAHA
I used to like and look up to SpaceX for the interesting stuff that they build,
but nowadays i don’t care anymore. The company can fail for all i care. Musk spoiled it.
The tipping point, for me personally, was when Musk seriously threatened to slash public spending in February this year. It shows a clear disrespect to the people, and frankly, a sociopathic attitude.
Musk had everything, lots of money, lots of fame, lots of influence, but he threw it all away when he decided to threaten the wellbeing and lifelyhood of a lot of people just so that rich assholes can make an extra buck through tax cuts.
Better super late than never.
I wonder what continues to motivate the uber rich to seek more wealth-you simply can’t buy any more tangible amount of happiness through material or influence after a point.
Once you have enough money, anything you do makes you money.
Elon blew 44 billion or Twitter, axed the servers, staff, and the name, and he was able to leverage that into a government job where he could kill investigations into his companies years later. You could say it’s intelligence, but I’d say it’s a combination of luck, and the resources to blow 44 billion and not have it affect you personally in any way.
SpaceX should be nationalized. We paid for it, it’s ours.
Agreed. This system of giving out money and getting what we paid for sold back to us is fucking dumb.
Who in the current admin would you like to see run it? Because one of them would if it were nationalized. Who would be your pick?
It would be under NASA, but the argument is moot, since it wouldn’t happen under a MAGA Nazi administration. It will have to wait until Americans take back our government. Then we can nationalize Space X, confiscate the DOGE Goblin’s fortune, and deport him back to South Africa.
Prison will be perfectly fine for him. That or the neck trimmer.
The current regime is full of ignorant buffoons but at least in that case it would normally be temporary.
In the private model where the gov pays for everything anyway, the taxpayer pays the cost of doing the thing plus whatever profit the oligarch wants to make and you have no way of switching to another oligarch should the current one becomes unacceptable. There is simply no upside to SpaceX as a private entity
I don’t know why you didn’t just fund NASA properly.
Sure, just let me change the payee on this check
Government agencies can’t bribe as good. Our politicians are whipped dogs who sell the free world for less than an F-150 a year in kickbacks.
For those maybe blissfully ignorant of car culture that’s an F-150 (the grocery getter for fragile egos) oversized pickup truck , and not some fighter jet.
He’s basically gutting NASA so it can be reduced to a taxpayer-funded corporate subsidy for greedy billionaires and giant corps. They’re killing everyone’s dreams and inspiration.
Here in the UK Musk is just seen as an idiot. Some decent European EV solutions coming along but the Chinese cars are so much better value than Tesla OR the main European makes. Couldn’t happen to a nicer megalomaniac and as a plus I love seeing the monthly SpaceX explosions
It’s not just the UK that sees his as an idiot. The world sees him this way, and that’s because he is one. Also an egomaniac.
Even before the current political situation I wouldn’t have bought a Tesla. They have a documented quality problem and not very good customer service at least outside of the US.
Why would I buy a car that is not only more likely than most to break but when it does break it’s hard to get fixed. Spare parts are notoriously hard to get hold of and you usually have to deal with Tesla directly which is a problem because they don’t have a lot of dealerships in the UK. Also they won’t come to you, so if your car won’t start you have to arrange a pickup.
They have terrible customer service in the US too. I think it’s their business model: find people who enjoy being treated like an asshole and sell them overpriced shit.
So like Apple but more expensive
<img alt="" src="https://feddit.uk/pictrs/image/e33db363-9dab-46ef-af01-01a9dad8f8fb.webp">
European/other than China EV makers also did well, that this and other headlines this year, intentionally obfuscate. The combination of both above numbers means overall EV growth was about 25%. 93% is non US/China.
and the people rejoice
This is one of the reason that the USA being heavy handed with Chinese is going to bite us in the ass. While in the USA, we bury our heads in the sand and GM, Tesla and etc. all crank out $95,000 giant trucks/SUVs, some companies in China are making very, very affordable vehicles. These aren’t necessarily garbage either – there’s models available for almost any price point.
What WOULD be really smart and forward thinking is if in the USA, the domestic brands also make some affordable models to get EV more popular. However, they are addicted to fat profit margins, and thanks to all the protectionism, they don’t need to worry about offshore models being “better”.
While other nations either develop and/or import affordable EVs, we’re effectively banning them. This is all going to end up with a giant wake up call for American auto-manufacturers when the protections/tariffs are ultimately lifted and they HAVE to compete.
I think it would be great if the tariffs came with huge incentives for domestic manufacturers and motivated them to be competitive. Instead, it’s just letting them segment the market for a few years and make a killing. Who loses? The people…
This is the real reason for tarrifs. Forcing citizens into paying ridiculous prices so biliionares can circle jerk about how much more power they can get. They’re scourges and bottomless voids of resources and misery.
It was just like what happened to the American auto industry before. Instead of listening to the market, we tell the market what they should buy.
We are losing our edge. People don’t want expensive cars. They want affordable, reliable cars. It was just like earlier Japanese cars. Japan is losing their edge too.
Honda is too unreliable. I won’t buy Honda again.
Not just people, the economy will end up paying the price.
Tariffs have horrible second order effects.
Every companies outputs is some other companies inputs.
American companies end up locked out of more affordable vehicles as inputs. That cost then gets baked into its output, which is some other company’s input. Then just keep following that chain.
The best broad blanket tariffs can hope to do is trade long term competitiveness for some short term price increase.
Americans will wonder why other nations eat our lunch in the coming decades. Well that foreign company could buy the cheaper machine to produce the widget, their raw materials cost less to deliver because the transit company that ships it in charges a better rate because they have lower vehicle overhead. Since they have 2 dozen suppliers for their components both foreign and domestic they are forced to compete on quality and price.
American companies will become even more bloated and inefficient
These cars are passing EU safety tests which are generally more demanding than the USA.
They are definitely getting good, fast.
Did not zee this happening.