Japanese Government Calls on Sora 2 Maker OpenAI to Refrain From Copyright Infringement, Says Characters From Manga and Anime Are 'Irreplaceable Treasures' That Japan Boasts to the World (www.ign.com)
from simple@piefed.social to technology@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 17:04
https://piefed.social/post/1374404

#technology

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mannycalavera@feddit.uk on 15 Oct 17:13 next collapse

I don’t think these companies give a shit 😥. If it means US companies fall behind the White House is going to aide with these companies and allow it. Or hostilely take over your company like they’re doing with Tiktok.

tal@lemmy.today on 15 Oct 17:38 next collapse

So, the “don’t use copyrighted data in a training corpus” crowd probably isn’t going to win the IP argument. And I would be quite surprised if IP law changes to accommodate them.

However, the “don’t generate and distribute infringing material” is a whole different story. IP holders are on pretty solid ground there. One thing that I am very certain that IP law is not going to permit is just passing copyrighted data into a model and then generating and distributing material that would otherwise be infringing. I understand that anime rightsholders often have something of a tradition of sometimes letting fan-created material slide, but if generative AI massively reduces the bar to creating content, I suspect that that is likely to change.

Right now, you have generative AI companies saying — maybe legally plausibly — that they aren’t the liable ones if a user generates infringing material with their model.

And while you can maybe go after someone who is outright generating and selling material that is infringing, something doesn’t have to be commercially sold to be infringing. Like, if LucasArts wants to block for-fun fan art of Luke and Leia and Han, they can do that.

One issue is attribution. Like, generative AI companies are not lying when they say that there isn’t a great way to just “reverse” what training corpus data contributed more to an output.

However, I am also very confident that it is very possible to do better than they do today. From a purely black-box standpoint, one possibility would be, for example, to use TinEye-style fuzzy hashing of images and then try to reverse an image, probably with a fuzzier hash than TinEye uses, to warn a user that they might be generating an image that would be derivative. That won’t solve all cases, especially if you do 3d vision and generative AI producing models (though then you could also maybe do computer vision and a TinEye-equivalent for 3D models).

Another complicating factor is that copyright only restricts distribution of derivative works. I can make my own, personal art of Leia all I want. What I can’t do is go distribute it. I think — though I don’t absolutely know what case law is like for this, especially internationally — that generating images on hardware at OpenAI or whatever and then having them move to me doesn’t count as distribution. Otherwise, software-as-a-service in general, stuff like Office 365, would have major restrictions on working with IP that locally-running software would not. Point is that I expect that it should be perfectly legal for me to go to an image generator and generate material as long as I do not subsequently redistribute it, even if it would be infringing had I done so. And the AI company involved has no way of knowing what I’m doing with the material that I’m generating. If they block me from making material with Leia, that’s an excessively-broad restriction.

But IP holders are going to want to have a practical route to either be able to go after the generative AI company producing the material that gets distributed, or the users generating infringing material and then distributing it. AI companies are probably going to say that it’s the users, and that’s probably correct. Problem is from a rightsholder standpoint, yeah, they could go after the users before, but if it’s a lot cheaper and easier to create the material now, that presents them with practical problems. If any Tom, Dick, and Harry can go out and generate material, they’ve got a lot more moles to whack in their whack-a-mole game.

And in that vein, an issue that I haven’t seen come up is what happens if generative AI companies start permitting deterministic generation of content – that is, where if I plug in the same inputs, I get the same outputs. Maybe they already do; I don’t know, run my generative AI stuff locally. But supposing you have a scenario like this:

  • I make a game called “Generic RPG”, which I sell.

  • I distribute — or sell — DLC for this game. This uses a remote, generative AI service to generate art for the game using a set of prompts sold as part of the DLC for that game. No art is distributed as part of the game. Let’s say I call that “Adventures A Long Time Ago In A Universe Far, Far Away” or something that doesn’t directly run afoul of LucasArts, creates enough distance. And let’s set aside trademark concerns, for the sake of discussion. And lets say that the prompts are not, themselves infringing on copyright (though I could imagine them doing so, let’s say that they’re sufficiently distant to avoid being derivative works).

  • Every user buys the DLC, and then on their computer, reconstitutes the images for the game. At least if done purely-locally, this should be leg

ToastedRavioli@midwest.social on 15 Oct 19:19 next collapse

It sounds like it would be an analogue issue that is already similarly solved in other respects.

For example, its not only illegal for someone to make and sell known illegal drugs, but its additionally illegal to make or sell anything that is not the specifically illegal drug but is analogous to it in terms of effect (and especially facets of chemical structure)

So any process that produces an end result analogous to copyright infringement would be viewed as copyright infringement, even if it skirts the existing laws on a technical basis, is probably what the prevailing approach will be

tal@lemmy.today on 15 Oct 21:04 collapse

For example, its not only illegal for someone to make and sell known illegal drugs, but its additionally illegal to make or sell anything that is not the specifically illegal drug but is analogous to it in terms of effect (and especially facets of chemical structure)

Hmm. I’m not familiar with that as a legal doctrine.

kagis

At least in the US — and this may not be the case everywhere — it sounds like there’s a law that produces this, rather than a doctrine. So I don’t think that there’s a general legal doctrine that would automatically apply here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act

The Federal Analogue Act, 21 U.S.C. § 813, is a section of the United States Controlled Substances Act passed in 1986 which allows any chemical “substantially similar” to a controlled substance listed in Schedule I or II to be treated as if it were listed in Schedule I, but only if intended for human consumption. These similar substances are often called designer drugs. The law’s broad reach has been used to successfully prosecute possession of chemicals openly sold as dietary supplements and naturally contained in foods (e.g., the possession of phenethylamine, a compound found in chocolate, has been successfully prosecuted based on its “substantial similarity” to the controlled substance methamphetamine).[1] The law’s constitutionality has been questioned by now Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch[2] on the basis of Vagueness doctrine.

But I guess that it might be possible to pass a similar such law for copyright, though.

FatCrab@slrpnk.net on 15 Oct 19:29 next collapse

This is a distressingly unusually solid analysis for lemmy. I agree with one exception–writing to memory absolutely counts as a distribution. Accordingly, if a generative model output an infringing work, it for sure could create liability for infringement. I think this will ultimately work similarly to music copyright where conscious/explicitly intentional copying is not itself the threshold test, but rather degree of similarity. And if you have prompts that specifically target towards infringement, you’re going to get some sort of contributory infringement structure. I think there is also potentially useful case law to look at in terms of infringement arising out of work-for-hire situations, where the contractor may not have infringed intentionally but the supervisor knew and intended their instructions to produce an effectively infringing work. That is, if there is any case law on this pretty narrow fact pattern.

lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com on 16 Oct 02:56 next collapse

However, the “don’t generate and distribute infringing material” is a whole different story. IP holders are on pretty solid ground there.

Is any of it infringing? Explain the knock-off music & art in popular media when they don’t want to pay royalty fees for the authentic article. Explain knock-off brands. Cheap imitations to sidestep copyright restrictions have been around long before generative AI, yet businesses aren’t getting sued: they apparently understand legal standards enough to safely imitate. Why is shoddy imitation for distribution okay when human-generated yet not when AI-generated?

I don’t think your understanding of copyright infringement is solid.

Even supposing someone manages to generate work whose distribution infringes copyright, wouldn’t legality follow the same model as a human requesting a commercial (human-based) service to generate that work?

Meron35@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 07:30 collapse

I fear that this does not cleanly apply to Japan because of their somewhat uniquely active doujinshi (fan work) culture. To give an idea of how big a deal doujinshi are, the largest western convention San Diego Comic Con only draws around 130,000 attendants. The largest Doujinshi convention Comiket drew 750,000 attendants before COVID. These works are explicitly distributed and redistributed for commercial profit (though admittedly usually not at any profitable scale).

Japan copyright law has explicit exceptions for doujinshi, having recognised the immense value to the industry. So many successful artists started by creating and selling doujinshi, which are usually explicitly derivative works of IP.

Doujinshi - Wikipedia - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doujinshi

vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org on 17 Oct 10:51 collapse

Yeah, and in the rest of the world where copyright is enforced, it’s first of all enforced against things like doujinshi. That’s the main financial force behind it. Japan just preserved saner rules for domestic culturally important industry, screwing the potential new ones.

OK, it’s not like they had much choice, US and Berne Convention style copyright was spread almost by threat of sanctions when it was a new thing.

frongt@lemmy.zip on 15 Oct 18:03 next collapse

That’s their whole business model

_cryptagion@anarchist.nexus on 15 Oct 18:04 next collapse

japan:
- people make rule34 porn of underage children: “i sleep"
- people make unsanctioned videos of characters from mega-corps like nintendo doing stupid stuff: “i weep”

always interesting to see where their priorities lie.

mienshao@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 18:40 next collapse

Insane that that’s your takeaway from this post. This had nothing to do with underage children, so why is your mind already there? So fucking weird.

[deleted] on 15 Oct 19:51 next collapse

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[deleted] on 15 Oct 19:54 collapse

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Hellotypewriter@retrolemmy.com on 15 Oct 20:02 next collapse

AI is like stealing a brick from everyone in your town to build your own house. As a medical writer it has absolutely destroyed my business.

pycorax@sh.itjust.works on 16 Oct 03:18 next collapse

And build it seeming convincingly well before it falls apart once a storm passes by.

Tollana1234567@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 05:16 collapse

i heard it pretty much ruined some career of corporate writers, on certain subs, although i dont know the extent of it. on one post, the user said the company was pretty much okay with the fact that thier low-quality AI generated writings will result in less clientele and less revenue, but no overhead of hiring an outside writer

Hellotypewriter@retrolemmy.com on 16 Oct 05:52 collapse

Yeah. So medical writers have it really rough. I was making $100k+ last year. I just exhausted unemployment. The problem is that you can feed AI a list of approved claims and basically feed it a ton of examples and it gets 85% of the way there. Of course it’s ripping off our work to do that, but cash is king. I haven’t checked in a bit, but website traffic was down 90%. So, they essentially lost millions to save $100k.

dubyakay@lemmy.ca on 16 Oct 06:53 collapse

Are we talking about pages like webmd?

Hellotypewriter@retrolemmy.com on 16 Oct 08:05 next collapse

More like a claims database. We relied a lot on PubMed, which hosts a wealth of clinical data, original research, case studies, systematic reviews, etc. I love PubMed. It’s the Brooklyn Bridge of peer-reviewed stuff.

Tollana1234567@lemmy.today on 17 Oct 04:06 collapse

oh yea, i used ncbi/pubmd to look for articles, and then search for the whole research article on places like researchgate. from the job search site, ai also ruining peoples ability to get interviewed, because AI is used to screen applicants, and applicants using it to make hordes of “resume”

Tollana1234567@lemmy.today on 17 Oct 04:07 collapse

WEBMD is pretty much ecyclopedia for diseases, something you can use wikipedia for too.i think medical writer, would write something to be approvable or not by the insurance or billing.

Tollana1234567@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 05:18 next collapse

how is that relevant to AI; Minors AND nintendo doing some IP nazi stuff is not the same as AI stealing content.

ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 07:31 next collapse

Drawings, as long as they’re easy to differentiate from reality, should be fine. Otherwise we will continue to slide down on the slippery slope of censorship of adult content, and one day short women and lack of a pubic hair will also be considered CSAM (I knew people who did so).

skisnow@lemmy.ca on 16 Oct 10:35 collapse

The fact that you’re trying to drag completely irrelevant shit into it about paedophilia, shows how staggeringly weak the pro-OpenAI argument is.

TomMasz@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 18:16 next collapse

OpenAI is copyright infringement.

artyom@piefed.social on 15 Oct 18:37 next collapse

OenAI replies: “but line go up…?”

jordanlund@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 19:25 next collapse

I’m amazed that these shady chatbot apps aren’t getting sued to death. I see ads all the time for Simpsons, Family Guy, Incredibles characters and I’m like “Disney is going to murder you.”

paraphrand@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 20:07 next collapse

Disney bought into a long history of Fox animated properties being lax in infringement enforcement online.

But this is a whole different level. That’s where I agree with you.

SnoringEarthworm@sh.itjust.works on 15 Oct 20:35 collapse

They’ll wait until the bubble bursts (or OpenAI shows signs of weakness) and then they’ll eat it alive.

It’s not profitable to go after them when the government is tweeting out Pokémon ICE commercials and the president is making deepfakes of himself.

porcoesphino@mander.xyz on 15 Oct 21:49 next collapse

And the other government with large contributors is China and intellectual property rights have never been strong there. Walk around a startup and you’ll see plenty of posters they’re made with their products and with the faces of Elon Musk or Steve Jobs there as if they’re endorsing or part of the product

porcoesphino@mander.xyz on 16 Oct 00:05 next collapse

And the other government with large contributors is China and intellectual property rights have never been strong there. Walk around a tech startup in China and you’ll see plenty of posters they’ve made with their products and with the faces of Elon Musk or Steve Jobs there as if they’re endorsing or part of the product

Tollana1234567@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 05:20 collapse

they use westerners, even hiring white people to be the face of thier company, its to "legitimize thier shady companies its very common. they make the westerners go to events and pretend like they own it, but not do anything for the companies internal workings. thats why alot of products on amazon that are from china uses white people in thier ads.

Tollana1234567@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 05:18 collapse

NVIDIA will want thier investment back at some point too. oracle is going to be left holding the bag on all the useless datacenters they built.

unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de on 15 Oct 20:51 next collapse

They will just make deal with OpenAI that benefit both sides while all the small players get crushed. Same as with all types of media…

ripcord@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 15:35 collapse

Why are you seeing ads?

jordanlund@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 16:55 collapse

On mobile most of the time.

ripcord@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 21:41 collapse

No adblock?

jordanlund@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 22:24 collapse

Nah, not worth the trouble most of the time. I use it in my browser, but not at the app level.

MourningDove@lemmy.zip on 15 Oct 20:08 next collapse

“Irreplaceable treasures”

ROFL!

[deleted] on 15 Oct 21:13 next collapse

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FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au on 15 Oct 21:22 next collapse

Hate for AI vs hate for big corporations and copyright laws. Which thing that they hate will Lemmy members defend passionately?

meco03211@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 21:57 next collapse

Likely, whatever benefits the little guy. Most people don’t have a problem with copyright laws in a vacuum. It’s the abuse of those by large corporate entities that are the issue.

FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au on 16 Oct 03:14 collapse

Well in this case there’ s no question - OpenAI benefit the “little guy” more.

eldebryn@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 22:38 next collapse

If we had a fair distribution of wealth I wouldn’t care about either of these really.

Most artists care about attribution/fame somewhat but if they could live comfortably they wouldn’t care about royalties much or others using their art.

Likewise for AI, automation is an amazing thing for civilization but when it is gatekeeped and used to make the rich richer it’s just exploitation of workers everywhere since they have to work as hard as they did one century ago with, arguably, less buying power.

FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au on 16 Oct 03:15 collapse

If we had a fair distribution of wealth I wouldn’t care about either of these really.

A “fair distribution of wealth” isn’t really a thing though. What you likely consider “fair” is most likely “not fair” to high income earners, correct?

eldebryn@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 03:27 collapse

Yes and idfaf. Work as much as you want to. No one gets a second home before everyone has at least one. That’s my position.

umbraroze@slrpnk.net on 15 Oct 23:29 collapse

AI companies are not on the side of copyright reform or abolition. They just want an exception for themselves. They very much believe in trade secrets. They probably want copyright to eventually cover the current grey areas so that they can stop pretending they give a damn about open models.

It’s not unreasonable to demand AI companies to play by the same rules as everyone else.

FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au on 16 Oct 03:13 collapse

It’s not unreasonable to demand AI companies to play by the same rules as everyone else.

But when you hate those very rules, shouldn’t you be cheering on the people that are seemingly ignoring them and are likely to try and challenge them in court/lobby to be changed/removed? Right? “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” and all that?

Oh, but not when those people are evil capitalist companies that make AI product lol.

umbraroze@slrpnk.net on 16 Oct 20:16 collapse

Like I said, the AI companies are not on the same side. The AI companies in the fight for their own selfish reasons. They’re eventually just going to make the copyright situation even more byzantine. They also make the copyright reform/abolition people look bad.

It’s like if I say I’m an Anarchist and then I have to constantly say “well actually I don’t advocate for looting and vandalism nonsense, those dipshits don’t know shit about Anarchism”. Do you know how hard it is to advocate for more reasonable copyright policy reflecting modern times, when the current big crisis in the mind of artists and creators are the dipshit companies blatantly violating the law?

FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au on 16 Oct 22:36 collapse

One issue is that they’re not blatantly violating the law though. There’s no law saying you can’t create art etc of copyrighted material. It’s legal basically unless you’re then selling it.

With training AI models, again there’s nothing illegal about that. Some companies and people want it to be illegal, but it currently isn’t and realistically never should be since laws exist around the use of copyrighted content (as mentioned above). Why should it matter if it’s a computer doing the “learning” compared to a person?

It’s what you do with the content that is controlled by law, not how you created it.

aliser@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 23:36 next collapse

yeah like he gaf

SabinStargem@lemmy.today on 15 Oct 23:43 next collapse

I am cool with everything stuffed into AI and freely distributed, whatever the form. Bluntly, I think copyright sucks, and want it gone. Nintendo shouldn’t be able to patent game mechanics, and I would like to see more mashups of things.

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.today/pictrs/image/e4063f4c-2795-4f4c-b7c2-9b9d9651611e.jpeg">

TomAwsm@lemmy.world on 15 Oct 23:55 next collapse

Ah, a man of culture - DBZ Team Training is a classic. I also hear good things about Super Mariomon, though I haven’t tried it yet myself.

Montreal_Metro@lemmy.ca on 16 Oct 00:13 next collapse

I agree that I should be able to use whatever you make and sell it for money without crediting you because I’m a human just like you. We’re basically related so whatever you make is also mine because we’re pretty try much the same person.

bss03@infosec.pub on 16 Oct 01:35 next collapse

I will support the elimination of copyright. But, as long as copyright exists, I will reject and resist AI.

That said, there are a number of other reasons I think AI sucks, it’s not limited to copyright.

Tollana1234567@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 05:22 next collapse

i support elimination of IP copyright for medications, lessen the time for other forms of IP, like movie/show franchises.

bss03@infosec.pub on 16 Oct 05:50 collapse

I don’t think copyright is currently serving it’s purpose “To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts”. And it should be eliminated anywhere it is not doing that.

Closest to my pocketbook is software (I’m a programmer), and I think we’d almost certainly be better off without copyright of any kind on software. It would mean exercise of some of our freedom around software would have to be implemented via reverse engineering, but it would make that route much more available / less risky for software that is current not Free Software. But, maybe I’m extra jaded because software is almost always done as “work-for-hire” so the author doesn’t actually hold the copyright, the Capitalist employer does.

Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 16 Oct 06:00 collapse

I support the elimination of copyright in it’s current form

The way it was initially was fine IMO: 14 years, with an option to renew it at the end of those 14 years. ONCE.

Now in terms of patenting medications, if it was partially paid for with public money it’s the public’s patent. In other words it’s open for everyone. Made a new medication but took a government grant to help fund it? It’s public when it comes out, enjoy a nice hearty reward check for your efforts.

tal@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 01:54 collapse

Nintendo shouldn’t be able to patent game mechanics

Those are patents, not copyrights. There are a bunch of different forms of intellectual property. Off the top of my head:

  • Copyright

  • Trademark

  • Patent

  • Moral (not very substantial in the US, but more-meaningful in France)

SabinStargem@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 02:21 collapse

IMO, the way it should be is that concepts and art should be free to be used by anyone. However, specific incarnations made someone can’t be copied. For example, Nintendo can make a Pokemon game, as can Sega with the same characters. Naturally, Nintendo can make a Shin Megami Mario game.

The important thing is that the company or people behind an incarnation is distinctly labelled, so that people can’t confuse who made what. In this way, variants of a media can fulfill niches that otherwise wouldn’t be possible. Say, for example, a WoodRocket “Jessie Does James” hentai anime.

tal@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 02:40 next collapse

I have, in the past, kind of wished that settings and characters could not be copyrighted. I realize that there’s work that goes into creating each, but I think that we could still live in a world where those weren’t protected and interesting stuff still gets created. If that were to happen, then I agree, it’d be necessary to make it very clear who created what, since the setting and characters alone wouldn’t uniquely identify the source.

Like, there are things like Greek mythology or the Robin Hood collection of stories, very important works of art from our past, that were created by many different unaffiliated people. They just couldn’t be created today with our modern stories, because the settings and characters would be copyrighted and most rightsholders don’t just offer a blanket grant of rights to use them.

That’s actually one unusual and notable thing H.P. Lovecraft did — if you’ve ever seen stuff in the Cthulhu Mythos, that’s him. He encouraged anyone who wanted to do so to create stuff using his universe. One reason why we have that kind of collection of Lovecraftian stuff.

But you can’t do that with, say, Star Wars or a lot of other beloved settings.

SabinStargem@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 04:05 collapse

The Touhou franchise strikes me as the modern Lovecraft. People are creating fangames, and go on to make them into commercial products. Around the 22nd or thereabout, “Shrine Maiden Wars” will be released, which is a take on the Super Robot Wars formula, but with the Touhou cast. It is an incredibly vibrant ecosystem of fanworks, where most people get to have fun AND profit.

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.today/pictrs/image/86768b04-ea1a-40ac-ab0f-6aaeb66323b2.jpeg">

Sebastrion@leminal.space on 16 Oct 04:18 collapse

Touhou Luna Nights Is such a Fun Game! It was the first Touhou Game I played because I’m don’t like Bullet Hell’s. If someone reads this and is into Metroidvanias, give it a shot!

SabinStargem@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 04:47 collapse

I probably will get it when Turkey Day rolls around. Anyhow, counter-suggestion: Check out La-Mulana if you like puzzles with your Metroidvania. They are extremely long and difficult games, but is worth your time if you got the lateral thinking to puzzle out the riddles and enjoy things like King’s Quest.

Sebastrion@leminal.space on 19 Oct 03:03 collapse

Looks interesting, I will check it out during Christmas vacation. Thanks!

3abas@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 05:50 next collapse

Once you start studying non capitalist propaganda, the idea of “intellectual property” becomes transparently harmful. Copyrights don’t protect ideas, they protect the wealth of rich people.

hayvan@feddit.nl on 16 Oct 07:01 collapse

Indeed. I’m not against copyrights owned by individuals. Corporations owning rights is downright dystopian.

Womble@piefed.world on 16 Oct 08:03 next collapse

I'm not even sure that IP being owned by non-natural persons is the problem, for example I could see a coop collectively owning copyrights/patents relevant to their work. The problem is the frankly ridiculous amount of time granted for copyrights and obvious methods being patented.

Change both of those and you keep the benefit of innovative individuals/small groups having legal protection from large corporations muscling in and stealing their work and get rid of most of the damage done by the current system.

Njos2SQEZtPVRhH@piefed.social on 16 Oct 08:06 collapse

So, we can use Donald Duck, but not Harry Potter? I don’t quite understand why. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to write my own Harry Potter books? (not that I would).

sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works on 16 Oct 14:48 collapse

It should fall under more general laws against fraud. The main harm in copyright violation is copying something and claiming to be the original author, thereby stealing credit for it. If a reasonable person would mistake your product as coming from the original source, then you have committed fraud and should be held liable for damages.

However, if you make a spinoff and it’s obviously distinct such that a reasonable person wouldn’t mistake your work as coming from the original creator, that should be protected.

So yeah, if I want to make a Pokemon game and it is very distinct from anything The Pokemon Company has worked on (either directly or indirectly), then it should be totally fine. The only copyright violation is if I directly copy any artwork, but if I produce my own renditions, I should be in the clear.

jsomae@lemmy.ml on 15 Oct 23:48 next collapse

Everyone here is either on the side of hating big AI companies or hating IP law. I proudly hate both.

uairhahs@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 06:45 next collapse

This is the way

utopiah@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 08:41 next collapse

2 wrongs don’t make a right, I did enjoy

on the topic.

sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works on 16 Oct 14:42 next collapse

We need two things:

  1. much shorter copyright and patent durations, like 14 and 5 years respectively (14 comes from OG copyright duration)
  2. stronger enforcement of copyright to protect creators from AI stealing their work

They should happen in that order, and ideally copyright would only be awarded to individuals (or perhaps specifically named lists of individuals, with some reasonable cap), not corporations. The current system is absolutely bonkers.

Zink@programming.dev on 16 Oct 17:26 next collapse

Making it so corporations cannot directly own some random valuable thing?

It’s a nice thing to think about, but it has 0% chance of happening in our current system.

sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works on 16 Oct 23:34 collapse

They kind of could. They could employ someone to own the copyright, and pay them handsomely to retain control of that copyright.

That’s honestly how it should be. The same should be true for patents.

Trademark, however, should be company controlled.

Zink@programming.dev on 17 Oct 00:46 collapse

Oh I didn’t mean that it couldn’t be done. Just that it wouldn’t be. The people who control such things are actively moving our system in the opposite direction.

sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works on 17 Oct 01:07 collapse

Not without a populist movement, no.

And IMO, it shouldn’t be our top priority either. We should focus on electoral reform so it’s easier to get decent representatives in office, making it easier to pass stuff like this.

LillyPip@lemmy.ca on 17 Oct 01:51 next collapse

I disagree, because I think all of these things address the wrong problem.

Individuals should be able to gain from their own inventions, and others shouldn’t be able to force them into poverty by stealing their IP. Corporations especially should not be incentivised to do that.

Then again, unfettered capitalism is geared towards incentivising corporations to do that.

The answer isn’t to weaken people’s already vanishing IP, but to change what’s incentivised. Also to stop treating corporations as people. They aren’t.

sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works on 17 Oct 13:31 collapse

The answer isn’t to weaken people’s already vanishing IP, but to change what’s incentivised.

IP protections are stronger than ever! If you write a novel and a company takes that without making a deal with you, almost any law firm will take that case with no payment until you get a massive settlement/judgement. You need to have evidence, of course, but IP is one thing the courts take very seriously.

Protecting IP is not an issue, the issue is the protections last way too long and are generally owned by corporations through employment contracts. I don’t think that should be legal. Instead, you should only be allowed to grant your employer a perpetual, royalty-free license to use your work and perhaps a noncompete for some reasonable time after (i.e. can’t license your work to specific competitors), and that agreement should be void if they terminate your contract unlawfully. The creator should always be able to use their creations for their own benefit.

But yeah, the real issue is incentives, and this dramatically changes incentives. Instead of a company like Disney milking their IPs for decades, they’ll need to continue to innovate because they can’t rely on courts to preserve their monopoly. Pokemon was created about 30 years ago and fans have continually complained about the state of the IP (games are samey and whatnot), so it’s high time they have some competition with that IP. Likewise for so many other popular IPs that companies just sit on and milk and only innovate when that stops being profitable.

If you change the IP structure, you’ll see a big shift in the creative market.

bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de on 17 Oct 15:34 collapse

They should happen in that order, and ideally copyright would only be awarded to individuals (or perhaps specifically named lists of individuals, with some reasonable cap), not corporations.

That’s actually the law in Germany. Here it’s not called copyright but originator’s right. The big caveat being that things you create while under contract are licensed to companies. But the originator’s rights can not be transferred or erased.

Of course international contracts severely muddy the waters here.

sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works on 17 Oct 16:03 collapse

That’s how it should be, and that’s awesome that Germany does that!

WhatGodIsMadeOf@feddit.org on 16 Oct 16:35 next collapse

But remember piracy is legal for the big AI companies.

brbposting@sh.itjust.works on 16 Oct 19:14 collapse

$1.5b judgement against Anthropic for it (not paid yet of course, gotta see how it plays from here)

UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 19:54 collapse

It’s a “heads-I-win / tails-you-lose” system when business can violently extract the value of labor coming and going.

Either the state protects owners of IP (inevitably a business entity looking to collect rents on its use) or it facilitates robbing the original artist (inevitably a talented individual/team that lacks the money for a lengthy legal fight). The legal system never seems to break in favor of the people themselves. It can only exist as a gradient to move wealth from the sweet of one’s brow to the pocket of one’s bosses.

arararagi@ani.social on 16 Oct 01:02 next collapse

Didn’t Japan rule that AI was fine to infringe copyright to train? Why are they complaining now?

Geodad@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 01:49 next collapse

Japan didn’t think the face eating leopards would eat their face.

Tollana1234567@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 05:23 next collapse

its okay if they did it, but not okay if a outsider does it.-japan

ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 07:24 next collapse

I guess that cost a few dinners and holidays, maybe even some fancy tech stuff. But probably took them to some conference, where they showcased “what AI will be capable in just a few years, only if they could train it on copyrighted material”.

Jyek@sh.itjust.works on 16 Oct 13:58 collapse

The argument for training an AI on copyright materials is different than the argument for allowing it to generate and distribute copyright infringing materials.

lechekaflan@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 02:17 next collapse

Based on what I saw while lurking around the site formerly known as Twitter, while some Japanese creatives are totally hostile to AI with their traditional and digital artwork being poached for “training”, others are jumping into Sora to enliven their waifu artwork, mostly posed 3D models or from video games.

[deleted] on 16 Oct 03:31 collapse

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HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca on 16 Oct 05:21 next collapse

Wow, Elon himself on Lemmy!

3abas@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 05:47 next collapse

The stubbornness of calling it Twitter is really silly. Imagine insisting Edge is AcTuAlLy Internet Explorer, same energy.

It’s called x now, you access it by going to c.com. it’s stupid, but you need to face it and accept that Twitter and what Twitter used to be is gone.

Stop using the Nazi platform, period. This refusal to let go of Twitter and still giving Elon money and influence by continuing to use his platform while insisting you’re making some sort of statement by making fun of him and calling it Twitter is… Silly. What’s the end game?

Twitter is dead. Let it go.

JackbyDev@programming.dev on 16 Oct 06:04 next collapse

You need a better example. Edge was specifically not Internet Explorer. For quite a while, both existed. They were separate programs. Also going to twitter.com still takes you to where you wanna go lol, it just redirects.

3abas@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 07:41 collapse

I guess you will call Nike Blue Ribbon Sports because they still have blueribbonsports.com, and certainly all the cool kids still say WWF because WWE is stupid, and I remember when everyone refused to call ebay anything but AuctionWeb, and don’t forget how everyone refused to accept that Research In Motion became BlackBerry. Almost forgot how nobody called Apple Music anything but Beats Music, and the SyFy channel will always be SciFi, and Paramount+ is universally rejected as a replacement for CBS All Access… It’s not hard to come up with examples, this happens all the time… lol

It’s a brand, and it changed. It’ll never be Twitter again, it’s the Nazi platform X now, and keeping ownership of the Twitter.com domain name isn’t exactly proof Twitter is still Twitter, so much has been changed about it beyond content moderation and Nazi propaganda distribution, from content access to monetization.

I personally avoid using the Nazi platform, but feel free to continue supporting it while “making fun” of its name change like that’s consequential at all.

Don’t engage with the ideas, downvote and run away. Your precious Twitter needs you to “stand up” to Elon by continuing to use his platform.

JackbyDev@programming.dev on 16 Oct 13:47 collapse

Pump the brakes. Never said I support using Twitter. I was just saying you don’t have to “go to x.com” to get there. Which is an argument you used.

3abas@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 16:47 collapse

That’s the primary domain… Twitter.com forwards to it, you do have to go to x.com, even if your browser is making that process mostly transparent for you.

Do you disagree that it’s not called Twitter anymore? Do you disagree that calling people stupid for calling it x is stupid?

The guy heiled Hitler twice on live tv and people are still using his platform because “it’s still Twitter”… It’s dumb.

JackbyDev@programming.dev on 17 Oct 06:12 collapse

I disagree that everyone still calling it Twitter are still using Twitter and doing it as a coping mechanism. Also I thought a couple of other things said weren’t the best for making your point but I already pointed them out.

3abas@lemmy.world on 17 Oct 09:22 collapse

Where have you pointed them out?

You told me to come up with a better example, I came up with several, and they still of course have the old domains.

If it’s not a coping mechanism, what is it? What is the end game? Enlighten me…

JackbyDev@programming.dev on 17 Oct 13:44 collapse

See my first comment here if you’re confused about where I pointed them out.

And the “end game” is just clowning on a dumb thing Musk did. The rebranding specifically. That’s it. It’s not deeper than that.

3abas@lemmy.world on 17 Oct 14:49 collapse

You’re clowning on it by insisting the name didn’t change? Okay…

I call it x, because that highlights that the dumbass Nazi killed a very valuable brand and changed it to something dumb. I don’t call people who call it x dumb, because that’s its new name. You’re not clowning on Muskrat, you’re clowning on a random person who simply referred to content on the website x (formerly Twitter, because the dumbass Nazi paid out his ass for it to turn it into the Nazi platform X).

See my first comment here if you’re confused about where I pointed them out.

I said companies change names, you asked for better examples and posited that it’s still Twitter because twitter.com forwards to x.com, I provided several examples of brands changing and keeping the old domain, you deflected and accused me of making the stupid domain argument in the first place, and completely ignored your answered request for better examples.

Weird.

JackbyDev@programming.dev on 17 Oct 15:35 collapse

Nobody calling it Twitter is denying that the name changed. You’re seriously overthinking this and making it into something it’s not.

completely ignored your answered request for better examples.

No I didn’t. The only reason I ever mentioned that again was because you seemed to be confused what I was commenting about and when I told you, you asked where I said it.

ivanafterall@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 07:57 next collapse

I think you’re mistaken. Your URL doesn’t even go anywhere. Pretty sure it’s still Twitter?

svcg@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 16 Oct 08:49 next collapse

I know people who are still calling Snickers bars Marathons. Telling people to let it go isn’t going to do you any good, either.

SunSunFuego@lemmy.ml on 16 Oct 10:08 next collapse

are you ragebaiting or do you really care that we deadname twitter? lmao

nice paragraphs.

JackbyDev@programming.dev on 16 Oct 14:03 collapse

They seem to equate people using the name Twitter with ignoring the problems with it post Musk buyout. Which isn’t the case.

Tiger666@lemmy.ca on 16 Oct 10:15 next collapse

Keep sucking fascist dick.

prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 16 Oct 15:18 collapse

it’s called x now, you access it by going to c.com

I know this is likely just a typo but it made me lol

titanicx@lemmy.zip on 16 Oct 14:15 collapse

Not even close. I just refuse to call that racist fueled rubbish heap Twitter.

nao@sh.itjust.works on 16 Oct 19:30 collapse

Fair point. But I can also see why people don’t want to call it by the name the current owner wants you to use.

Honytawk@feddit.nl on 16 Oct 08:08 collapse

You can’t deadname a company.

And as long as that dumb fascist does it to his daughter, even more reason to keep doing it.

I will never let marketing win.

titanicx@lemmy.zip on 16 Oct 14:17 collapse

No. I’m just not giving that nazi the satisfaction of using that name that built the site. Why would you?

MITM0@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 04:11 next collapse

That’s rich coming from a country with no proper copyright laws & a copyright monster by the name Nintendo

tatterdemalion@programming.dev on 16 Oct 05:44 collapse

Japan’s copyright law is very similar to the US, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention

Honytawk@feddit.nl on 16 Oct 08:06 next collapse

That both are copyright monsters which should be ignored as much as possible until they die out.

Disney is even worse than Nintendo.

87Six@lemmy.zip on 16 Oct 08:58 next collapse

Japan’s copyright law is very similar to the US

That’s exactly what he’s referring to lol

tatterdemalion@programming.dev on 17 Oct 04:00 collapse

I just don’t really understand the point they’re trying to make. Japan is responding to OpenAI, which is a US company. They have the same copyright laws. None of the parties involved have any kind of edge over the other w.r.t. copyright law.

dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 16 Oct 09:28 next collapse

which is why their laws aren’t proper copyright laws, yes

GeneralEmergency@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 10:58 collapse

You’re replying to a pizza cutter.

All edge and no point.

Highlandcow@feddit.uk on 16 Oct 15:18 collapse

Oooooo that’s a really good insult

utopiah@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 08:38 next collapse

Come on Japan, what’s a bit of culture for AGI/ASI! Don’t you want to save the planet? /$

This is obviously sarcasm, OpenAI just wants more money, namely the exact OPPOSITE of what it was founded for.

edgyspazkid@lemmy.wtf on 16 Oct 09:51 collapse

Automated garbage internet

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.wtf/pictrs/image/d4a69570-b4cd-4da3-aefb-d95562af62ef.png">

[deleted] on 16 Oct 14:11 next collapse

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Tattorack@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 15:29 collapse

What the actual fuck is this comment?

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 16:13 collapse

Anti Japan comment, of course, because they don’t like foreigners anymore

ZombieMantis@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 16:21 next collapse

Buddy, they never liked foreigners to begin with. That’s like… Their whole thing.

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 16:29 collapse

That doesn’t align with the modern globalism tendencies.

Perhaps we should colonize them and replace them with new people who fit the narrative better.

That’ll teach them to be more considerate of foreigners. Well, those that survive, at least.

Snowclone@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 17:40 collapse

booo… pick a psychosis and stick with it

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 18:33 collapse

I can’t. I must pick them all

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 16:28 next collapse

They don’t like foreigners, so let’s wish they were conquered by colonials, because that worked out so well for every other country conquered by colonials.

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 16:40 next collapse

But if they got replaced by the colonizers, we wouldn’t have xenophobic japanese people anymore.

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 17:46 collapse

You’re advocating for the replacement of an entire ethnic group. You know what that’s called, right?

I hope for your sake that you’re being ironic.

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 18:33 collapse

The African invaders did that with our denisovan and neanderthal ancestors. We would just be doing the same

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 18:35 next collapse

“African invaders”, I see you also fail at anthropology. Probably for idealogical reasons, right?

Otherwise you wouldn’t be saying something so monumentally stupid and uneducated.

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 18:56 collapse

The out of Africa theory makes them appear as the original colonizers.

I didn’t get anthropology in my third world school

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 22:03 collapse

Well, then allow me to educate you:

ALL human species originate from central Africa. Including Neanderthals.

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 23:17 collapse

That’s what the current dogmatic science ideas want us to believe.

Something something PsUeDoScIeCe BaD

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 23:48 collapse

Ah. You’re a racist, dilusional idiot.

I can abide ignorance, because someone ignorant can be taught. I cannot abide willful ignorance.

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 17 Oct 03:44 collapse

I am not racist. I am everything, depending on the mood. I speak against all the echo chambers to pass time at work. It helps with the shit and giggles

Xd I have to somehow survive those 8 hours of slavery every day

UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 19:49 collapse

The African invaders

I feel like I’m talking to a guy who was deeply offended by the movie Django Unchained.

UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 19:48 collapse

I mean, look at India. The Modi government will crawl over broken glass to appease their colonial oppressors. Or, at least, they’ll find some of their lowest cast neighbors to do the crawling for them.

UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 19:47 collapse

It’s the 1980s all over again. Americans conveniently rediscovering how much they hate Japan, the moment they see the country as a global rival rather than a source of cheap labor.

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 20:28 collapse

I wasn’t born in that fourth world wasteland that has no workers right.

UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 20:42 collapse

fourth world

I’m going to regret asking, but… what do you think the fourth world is? And, what did you think the first three were?

Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 21:03 collapse

I guess first would be Europe, second would be the old USSR countries, third would be Africa and central/south america and fourth would be the US

UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 21:09 collapse
mechoman444@lemmy.world on 16 Oct 16:30 next collapse

Japan has some of the worst copyright and fair use laws in the world.

Satire is often times considered copy right infringing.

bytesonbike@discuss.online on 16 Oct 17:00 collapse

I wouldn’t say they’re worse. I’d say they’re confusing as hell.

For example: fan manga are absolutely okay.

nasi_goreng@lemmy.zip on 16 Oct 17:31 collapse

Fan manga and other doujin works usually depends on the original copyright holder for enforcement.

Some are pretty open for any fanworks being commercialized as long it’s limited and case by case basis. For example, Love Live franchise allows doujin manga and other doujinshi works, but not with fanmerch. Serial Experiments Lain generally allows various stuff, but not R18 content. Some others like Yakitate Japan mangaka just happy seing his works have so many adult doujin manga, and even lining up on Comiket buying them.

YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today on 16 Oct 17:21 next collapse

What’s with the dumb takes at the top of this post?

[deleted] on 16 Oct 17:59 next collapse

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[deleted] on 16 Oct 18:17 collapse

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Draegur@lemmy.zip on 16 Oct 21:14 next collapse

Scam Faultman has a face that looks like it’d be a pillowy soft paradise for any brave fist that lands upon it at high speed.

canajac@lemmy.ca on 16 Oct 21:24 next collapse

No!

humanspiral@lemmy.ca on 16 Oct 23:58 next collapse

Open AI gets so much free PR. Sora is free for now, and instagram getting flooded with copyright infringing crap is not what an expensive video AI creation is going to be paid for. AI videos are very expensive. There are very few people who will pay for it as an alternative for more expensive CGI. Advertising industry can consider full shift for video. They can avoid rights violations and still do it.

Point though, is that copyright controversies are irrelevant to everything important. There is a utility to it, but its not 60gw of power required market.

Iambus@lemmy.world on 17 Oct 00:35 next collapse

Fuck Japanese copyright laws

webghost0101@sopuli.xyz on 17 Oct 06:16 collapse

Fuck all intellectual property.

Monopoly on ideas is though police. Information that is not hidden for personal reasons should always be free.

All of human creativity is recycled from internal interpretations, interpretations from the real world that we live in that is increasingly blocked off with real punishment to conceptual crime.

LillyPip@lemmy.ca on 17 Oct 01:46 next collapse

I guess this is good, though it’s annoying that it’s unique enough to make a headline. This should be completely uncontroversial.

cupcakezealot@piefed.blahaj.zone on 17 Oct 01:50 next collapse

good thing the us would never destroy cultural landmarks in the name of conquest

balance8873@lemmy.myserv.one on 17 Oct 16:12 collapse

I think they would

DupaCycki@lemmy.world on 17 Oct 11:50 collapse

Same country that just gave Nintendo a patent for a generic game idea thay has been in wide use for years. Yeah… this is strictly about profits from their anime industry. Japan is just as much of a capitalist dystopia as the US is. Though if they manage to hurt the AI ‘industry’ - nice, I guess?

Alloi@lemmy.world on 17 Oct 19:45 collapse

“this is strictly about profits from their anime industry.”

ya dont say?