You're Not Imagining It: Google Search Results Are Getting Worse, Study Finds (gizmodo.com)
from L4s@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 22:00
https://lemmy.world/post/10844379

You’re Not Imagining It: Google Search Results Are Getting Worse, Study Finds::Google swears everything is fine. A new study—and many people’s lived experience—says different.

#technology

threaded - newest

autotldr@lemmings.world on 17 Jan 2024 22:00 next collapse

This is the best summary I could come up with:


For the past few years, a growing number of users, analysts, and experts raised alarms about a truth that feels obvious to a lot of people who surf around in web browsers: the quality of Google results is in serious decline.

That’s according to a new study by a team of researchers from Leipzig University, Bauhaus-University Weimar, and the Center for Scalable Data Analytics and Artificial Intelligence, first reported by 404 Media Tuesday.

According to the study, those efforts aren’t working, but “search engines seem to lose the cat-and-mouse game that is SEO spam.” These changes often lead to a “temporary positive effect,” but the spammers just find new loopholes.

Just last week, Gizmodo covered a bizarre situation that saw Google turning up what looked like a child’s homework assignment for a search about former president John F. Kennedy’s stance on the death penalty.

It’s gotten so hard to find authentic, useful results that people have started adding the word “Reddit” to search terms to turn up content written by someone who actually cares, instead of someone just trying to make money.

In 2023, a Gizmodo investigation found the tech news outlet CNET deleted thousands of articles because its team felt that would aid in the site’s performance on Google Search.


The original article contains 1,257 words, the summary contains 211 words. Saved 83%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

rickdg@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 22:16 next collapse

So far, I’ve moved to Kagi.

Boozilla@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 22:48 collapse

I like kagi, too. The small subscription fee is worth it to me because I get decent search results and they don’t track you or bubble you…

[deleted] on 17 Jan 2024 22:58 collapse

.

Boozilla@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 23:04 next collapse

Well fuck. I want nothing to do with kagi now.

[deleted] on 17 Jan 2024 23:15 collapse

.

Boozilla@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 23:16 collapse

It’s frustrating. But not surprising. Indexing the internet ain’t cheap.

RedditRefugee69@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 03:32 next collapse

I’m so technologically illiterate I couldn’t figure out how to access the sears.space website. All I can find is versions and instances and a GitHub page

[deleted] on 18 Jan 2024 03:34 collapse

.

loudwhisper@infosec.pub on 18 Jan 2024 13:58 next collapse

That’s not an engine, it’s a metaengine. The results are still tied to the engines used, which means if they are trash, you get trash. Kagi uses a mix of google/yandex/brave etc. and then elaborates them as well, in addition to have their own scraper for things like the small web (which is great to surface personal blogs).

They are not comparable. Also, kagi’s privacy policy is exemplar and the account can be paid in crypto now (if you don’t want to use CC).

Besides, there is no such thing as free hosting, similarly to Lemmy, it’s just someone paying.

[deleted] on 18 Jan 2024 14:56 collapse

.

loudwhisper@infosec.pub on 19 Jan 2024 08:48 collapse

Kagi is an engine, searx is a meta-engine. That’s what I meant. Which means kagi does not simply collate results from multiple source (like searx does), but implements its own logic. This means that - for example - it deranks website with many trackers, or can implement various features on top of the results. So it’s not a nitpick, it’s a substantial difference between an engine (kagi) and a metaengine (searx), which is essentially a proxy + aggregation of other engines.

It’s a known fact that brave optimizes result based on google data, and the kagi guys themselves in fact added that - with it being cheaper than google API - it could be a vector to eventually reduce cost for google API without impacting results.

That said, AFAIK kagi does not pose as a nonprofit, I think they make extremely clear that running searches (scraping, paying API, etc.) cost money and that they need to be profitable. Their stance is that by using a subscription model, their business interests align with user’s interests of providing good searches, rather than results that benefit advertisers, which is completely reasonable. This is literally written in their “why pay for searches” article that is presented when they show the pricing.

Of course it is a big difference, and you can argue for pros and cons of both options. I personally think the internet should not be based either on megacorp nor on free labor. Would I prefer kagi being a co-op? Sure. But it’s not like relying solely on free labor is free from any moral implication either (sure, you can donate, and I do to Lemmy for example, but only a minority does).

[deleted] on 19 Jan 2024 14:21 collapse

.

loudwhisper@infosec.pub on 19 Jan 2024 15:59 collapse

This is more of a distraction than a distinction. Kagi’s results mostly come from others.

No, this is a big distinction. If you don’t care about it or you don’t appreciate the differences, there are plenty of resources online where these are explained. For once, an engine can parse the query and search based on its own logic. A metasearch will always just use your query and get results from the sources.

Its community is criticizing it for the results coming from others. A criticism that, I note, you don’t seem to touch. If you must respond to anything, I would love to hear your response to their corporate decision to fund a shady company run by a shady man.

First of all, the criticism is from a tiny fraction of the community, and it is about which others the results are coming from, looking at it from a very narrow angle. It is not about the fact that the results are coming from others, but only from the fact that they are coming also from Brave.

My opinion is fairly simple: I believe the damages of funding bad companies is less than the benefits of having a good one, with a good product which can have a substantially good impact on the infosphere, thrive. I believe that Google is a way worse company compared to what Brave will ever be, for example. However, I understand that if Kagi stopped taking results from anything which is not minor scrapers and its own scraper, Kagi wouldn’t exist (or at least, it would be a completely unusable product). If Brave integration can mean less money to Google in the medium term, it is a net-positive change from where I stand. And I am saying this as a de-googled taliban who stopped using any of their services for years. Considering that they integrate Google, Yandex, Mojeek and Brave, I would say that Brave is actually the less-worse of the major ones.

… Known by who? It’s definitely not common knowledge.

Known by whoever read the very conversation on kagifeedback. The company even answered to this particular point:

Brave API is cheaper than Google API. If we can figure out a way to do use it transparently without negatively impacting search results, we can use this to lower our costs (currently we serve both, but this is not the plan long term).

Which is a pretty good demonstration that Kagi as a corporation is seeking profit first and foremost.

That’s extremely surprising for a company which is not profitable and did not even get VC funding. Also, the company has a good track of caring about its users. When they brought costs down, not long ago, they modified the plans and expanded the amount of searches (bringing the middle tear to unlimited searches), passing down the savings to the users. This was effectively reverting a change they implemented half a year earlier -> blog.kagi.com/unlimited-searches-for-10.

With new search sources proving more cost-efficient, the improved efficiency of our infrastructure, and the broader market embracing Kagi, we can again offer an unlimited experience to a broader group of users. We’re excited that this change will let many more people enjoy a fun, ad-free, and user-centric web search.

Marketing move? I don’t know, but what I know is that they did something many other companies would never do.

hen you only nitpick the label I gave my examples, not the “we’re all in it together” emotional appeals aping the language of a non-profit. For example, “We exist to make the internet a healthier, happier place for everyone” Which I found on the business’ page you mentioned, is written more like they are a cutesy nonprofit than anything.

So, I am quoting the fact that the company is extremely transparent about its business strategy, it doesn’t hide the fact that needs to earn money, it is transparent about its costs (incl. per search). You are applying your own bias and interpretation on sentences which in no way lead to intend that they are a non-profit (“utilizing the language of” is not “pretending to be”).

I mean, if you want to believe that they are trying to act like a non-profit, I can’t change your mind. There are direct quote of the CEO talking about profitability, e.g.,

This is part of the reason we included these search results - now we have 4 search indexes to work with and are much more resilient to any one killing the relationship on a whim. This also allows us to optimize cost as we can use different indexes for different queries, which is another important consideration for us as Kagi is not profitable yet.

There are entire forum

[deleted] on 19 Jan 2024 16:31 collapse

.

wikibot@lemmy.world on 19 Jan 2024 16:32 next collapse

Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:

In a slippery slope argument, a course of action is rejected because, with little or no evidence, one insists that it will lead to a chain reaction resulting in an undesirable end or ends. The slippery slope involves an acceptance of a succession of events without direct evidence that this course of events will happen. The core of the slippery slope argument is that a specific decision under debate is likely to result in unintended consequences. The strength of such an argument depends on whether the small step really is likely to lead to the effect. This is quantified in terms of what is known as the warrant (in this case, a demonstration of the process that leads to the significant effect).

^to^ ^opt^ ^out^^,^ ^pm^ ^me^ ^‘optout’.^ ^article^ ^|^ ^about^

loudwhisper@infosec.pub on 19 Jan 2024 17:38 collapse

The decision to fund Brave Corp, run by Brendan Eich, is my chief criticism of Kagi Corp.

I understood that.

Let me put a pin in this.

You mix this, to then say this:

The conversation that you said very few people participated in?

But you maybe misunderstood me (I will pretend it was not intentional). Not all the people who participated in that conversation are supporting the criticism you quote. And that is what I said:

First of all, the criticism is from a tiny fraction of the community

I did not say that very few people participated, which is anyway also true with respect to 19k users. However, this is without considering that it’s very likely many more people read that conversation, even without commenting, let alone the fact that that’s the result you find when you look for “kagi and brave”, which means if you are learning about this topic, you will go read that thread and get familiar with these facts.

Which was never the argument presented.

This has nothing to do with a slippery slope. It’s just applying the same principle which is a very common process to decide on moral/ethical stances. I think that Google is way worse than brave. The economical, social and environmental impact of Google is orders of magnitude bigger than the impact that Eich’s donation to support homophobic position had on the world, or the one that Brave has with its crypto-bs. Mass-violation of privacy, layoffs, complete distortion of the internet based on the dominance, anti-competitive behavior, cooperation with US DoD and the military apparatus, the list is long. Given this, if your argument is that Kagi shouldn’t use (i.e., fund) Brave, mine is that Google is worse than Brave, hence if we want to apply the principle “it should not fund companies with harmful practices”, it should not fund it. And let’s also add that it shouldn’t fund Yandex, considering it’s a Russian company which pay taxes in Russia (funding the invasion of Ukraine?) and who knows how manipulates the information for the benefit of government propaganda. So, there are good arguments to not fund any of these companies on the basis of the same moral claim. There are subsets of users which probably have different hierarchies of “who is worse”, but for sure none of those companies will pass the bar to be considered “not harmful”, so then you need to decide whether the benefits of not doing business with them improve the world or doesn’t. From my PoV, as I explained, the benefits of having a company without harmful practices is bigger, even if in the short term means funding a little shitty companies. In fact, I also stated specifically that given Brave can be a replacement for Google, it is a net positive even without other considerations, and that’s because I’d rather have money sent to Brave than to Google.

People even said Kagi should just keep it turned off by default so nobody funds Brave Corp except by choice.

I understand they are working on a feature to do that.

Very interesting, but most people just look at the homepage, maybe the About page.

That’s for the most part written by the same guy anyway, it’s a small company. Also, as I said before, if you are learning about the kagi/brave controversy, you will end up in the forum (which is public and linked everywhere), I would expect is the same if you want to know more about the company.

I used a quote from an actual nonprofit and attributed it to Kagi. Apparently, you didn’t notice, probably thanks to how similar Kagi’s language is.

What does it mean, lol. Language similarity doesn’t mean they are pretending to be a noprofit. They have a mission to “humanize the web”, and they tend to stress that they want to improve “internet” as a whole. How does this relate to hiding being a for-profit company/pretending to be nonprofit? The message if anything is that they want to reconcile the need to run a business with doing it in a way that empowers, and does not harm, the customers. Why would you read in bad faith an attempt to show that for-profit companies do not necessary have to violate user’s rights to pursue profit?

As I said, I think you are simply attributing the meaning you want to sentences to make them mean what you want.

By charging a nominal fee for searches, Kagi ensures that its search results are faster, more accurate, and completely respectful of user’s privacy. And by aligning our incentives with those of our users, Kagi is committed to building a better, more ethical future on the web.

[deleted] on 19 Jan 2024 18:19 collapse

.

loudwhisper@infosec.pub on 19 Jan 2024 18:49 collapse

I will cut it short because I think we understood each other. I get your point of view, and I think it boils down to relative vs absolute harm. I think that consolidating the already established monopoly is worse, but ultimately it doesn’t matter, you seem to reach the conclusion of third parties (which is similar to what I also reached, meaning Kagi wouldn’t exist). The problem with that imho is that it doesn’t move the needle. It does not present an alternative way to provide internet services for companies. I am not sold yet on free labor and donations as the basis for the internet. I think there are a few cases that work (lichess being my favourite), but ultimately I don’t think it scales or applies to everything. Besides, that also works until the big dogs allow it to work, and if they do, they are probably still earning on it (the moment Google wants to shut down searx, it locks the scraping and goodbye).

I do like Kagi’s features, I do like their own scrapers results (personal/small websites, which I find much more useful compared to corpo blogs about tech stuff). I do like the concept of lens where I decide where to search easily, same for upranking/downranking websites in a custom way. I wouldn’t consider this event part of a bad track, I think this is still a reasonable business strategy, although I will hold them accountable in the future (as they grow, they should do more in-house).

alansuspect@aussie.zone on 18 Jan 2024 09:15 collapse

I picked up from their response that they’re just using the public API, not in any kind of partnership?

sturlabragason@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 22:27 next collapse

Because I’m too lazy to do my own research; does someone have actual good experience with something else?

I’m using Brave search and it’s good for most things if I add an extra keyword, but not good for local results.

Thanks in advance for all the Brave downvotes.

Fixbeat@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 22:39 next collapse

I use Duck Duck Go. It seems okay to me, but I admit that I haven’t tried anything else.

OpenStars@startrek.website on 17 Jan 2024 22:41 next collapse

DuckDuckGo finds some things. I’m no expert.

Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 17 Jan 2024 22:47 next collapse

I would NOT use it for shopping, I tried that recently and got a ton of really sketchy looking sites with way too cheap products that had no internet presence before this month. This might be more pronounced if you search specific product model numbers like I was rather than general terms.

I’ve had it be mostly okay on other stuff. I use it over Google but mostly because I don’t want to pay for a search engine.

OpenStars@startrek.website on 17 Jan 2024 23:25 collapse

Tbf, do those sketchy sites also show up with Google?

Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 18 Jan 2024 00:13 collapse

I’d have to repeat the search to check again, but I don’t remember seeing the same sites when I repeated the search on Google, at least not on the first page in the top few spots the way it was on DDG.

OpenStars@startrek.website on 18 Jan 2024 00:44 collapse

So maybe that’s the genius of DDG - you skip right past the predatory SEO-optimized sites straight away to the predatory sketchy ones:-D.

Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 18 Jan 2024 00:46 collapse

LOL! Yeah I’m paranoid enough about buying from strange sites that it’s not a problem, and frankly I expect the AI generated SEO optimized spam to be more likely to be riddled with malware.

OpenStars@startrek.website on 18 Jan 2024 01:04 collapse

Hrm, maybe Google screens those, so they are more purely a waste of your time rather than something that can be actually reported to a federal agency? :-P Or perhaps it is just a better scam, to keep a site up there for longer = more clickbait dollars, with less risk of angering someone so much that they track the scammers down and send them a “package” of explosive fun!:-D (the easiest profits come when the harmed party does not even realize that they have lost anything)

sturlabragason@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 23:04 collapse

Yeah but those are just privacy protective Bing results, right?

duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/…/sources/

OpenStars@startrek.website on 17 Jan 2024 23:34 collapse

I’ve heard people say that the answer is no, but in looking into it just now myself it looks like rather it is sometimes yes as well.

Basically the best way to describe it seems to be that it is “NOT Google, and MOSTLY does not want to be FULLY Bing (but still is somewhat, they’re wanting to work on it, but to be clear they do have embedded Microsoft trackers that they are forced to leave in due to their licensing agreement)”.

Enkers@sh.itjust.works on 17 Jan 2024 22:44 next collapse

I’m giving searx a try. There’s a list of public instances here: searx.space

Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works on 18 Jan 2024 00:22 next collapse

I’m disappointed with the number of brave downvotes you are receiving. Recommend you stop supporting Brave. Kagi has been really great, I’ve never looked back. I value ux, search, and privacy enough to feel it’s worth the price.

Buck@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 01:34 next collapse

qwant.com , a french privacy first search engine that has alright search results but great privacy control

Taleya@aussie.zone on 17 Jan 2024 22:33 collapse

Duckduckgo has turned into to a google clone at this point i’ve found - you get pretty much identical results with the added aggravation you can’t exclude keywords.

moshtradamus666@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 22:50 next collapse

I think it’s related to paid search and SEO tactics. All my browser have adblocks for years and I think it helps. By my own experience I don’t think it’s worse, and to be honest I still think it’s unmatched. I’ve been using duckduckgo sometimes and it’s alright and all but it’s definitely not better.

rivermonster@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 23:48 next collapse

I seriously can’t recommend Kagi enough! Make an account and do a hundred searches (FREE) that aren’t monetized and/or used to advertise to you or steal your data. It’s incredible what a difference it makes.

kagi.com

AlecSadler@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 03:43 collapse

I was reluctant to jump on the Kagi bandwagon, but I’m now a week in and genuinely enjoying it.

Before, I’d have to search things across Google/Bing/AskJeeves a few times to finally arrive at an answer - I’ve yet to leave Kagi this last week.

The different AI engines you can also use and the customization for styling are pretty darn good, too. I’m now using it as my dedicated search on all my android phones, my laptop, and my desktop. Time will tell if things hold up, but so far so good.

Only con so far is that it’s sometimes slow to provide results. It isn’t devastating, but it’s like a 5 second delay which “feels” slow, but it’s whatever.

Scolding7300@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 05:38 collapse

+1

Also, I wish we’d have a kagi community for Lemmy

Diabolo96@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 17 Jan 2024 23:52 next collapse

For most of my usual search any search engine does the job. For the rest :

fmhy.pages.dev

[deleted] on 19 Jan 2024 16:33 collapse

.

sqw@lemmy.sdf.org on 17 Jan 2024 23:56 next collapse

i was wondering what would it take to make a free/open/noncommercial search solution maintained by a collective (like wikipedia or something). search is too important to be ruined for everyone by corporations.

Diabolo96@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 17 Jan 2024 23:59 collapse

Like searx? searx.be/search

plenipotentprotogod@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 03:37 collapse

Searx is a search aggregator. It masks your identity from the search providers, but under the hood it’s still just a middle man for google/bing results. I don’t see how this helps if the results themselves are getting worse.

DeezeNuts@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 23:59 next collapse

That website was so jam packed with crap popping up that it wasn’t worth reading

hungover_pilot@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 03:28 collapse

If you use Firefox, the reader view works great when you want to look at just the article and nothing else.

coffeebiscuit@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 14:24 collapse

Or Safari.

toiletobserver@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 03:27 next collapse

Sponsored
Sponsored
Sponsored
Incorrect result
Sponsored
Sponsored
Pinterest
Incorrect result

VelvetStorm@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 05:41 next collapse

Fuck using quotes or a negative search still won’t get you what you want. I’ve had it still pull up results with the negative words in it.

Plopp@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 07:56 next collapse

It’s the same on YouTube. One time I added a negative term and I ONLY got that term in the results. I don’t understand how you can break such an important part of search.

Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca on 18 Jan 2024 14:43 next collapse

I’ve used terms like “ItemA”+“ItemB”

And still get results which have the disclaimer “Missing: ItemB | Show results with: ItemB”

I ALREADY TOLD YOU TO

Kiernian@lemmy.world on 19 Jan 2024 12:46 collapse

Yeah, so they changed it so it defaults to the “new” way where quotes and -UnwantedTerm don’t function the way they used to, but when you fill out the search box, hit “Google Search”, and it fails to perform the way you want it to, once you’re on the results page, go to “Tools” click on “All Results” and change it to “Verbatim”.

VelvetStorm@lemmy.world on 20 Jan 2024 02:39 collapse

Or I’m just gonna stop using Google

SomethingBurger@jlai.lu on 18 Jan 2024 08:54 collapse

Query: “list of item locations in game”

Results:

  • YouTube
  • YouTube
  • YouTube
  • List of item locations in other game of the series
  • YouTube
  • YouTube
  • IGN (their article is a just bunch of videos)
  • Irrelevant SEO bait
Cuberoot@lemmynsfw.com on 18 Jan 2024 15:09 next collapse

My problem seems to stem from the fact that my searches are often obscure and commercial interests probably wish I was searching for something else.

phoenixz@lemmy.ca on 18 Jan 2024 15:26 next collapse

I don’t need a study to know that.

I switched to DuckDuckGo years ago, never looked back

By coincidence, yesterday I had to use my Virtual windows machine to test some windows software with a a scanner (my own machine is Linux). So i go to the browser in there, search for the brand and model for the driver and lo and behold, all the results were sponsored or incorrect. Correct the browser configuration to DuckDuckGo, retry, and there is the first result!

Now I know, DuckDuckGo is now apparently just Microsoft Bing, and I hate Microsoft, but at least this works. I know that DuckDuckGo is also getting worse and I’m about to look into self hosted open source alternatives, see what that gets me…

mac@infosec.pub on 19 Jan 2024 18:55 collapse

Something like Searx?

mac@infosec.pub on 19 Jan 2024 18:58 collapse

Ecosia is pretty sweet if you fancy helping the planet. It’s also privacy conscious as in does not sell or store any personally identifiable information. They also anonymize search data.

important to note that Ecosia does collect some non-personal information, such as search terms and click data, to improve search results and analyze usage patterns.