From the bleachers, we watch the Trump shitshow daily. The topic of the show is: “What can Donald Trump still do today to appear even dumber than the day before?”
And he is not disappointing. What’s next? Tariffs for interstate trading? One must admit, this would be a really dumb idea, but it is not outside Trumps grasp.
Looks like we just found our new interstate secretary! Tell us more about these tariffs against California.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 06 Aug 22:14
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Wouldn’t this only affect goods manufactured in the USA? If a finished product containing chips from say, Europe, were to land on USA shores it would only have a 15% tariff right?
Huh? No, it's the opposite. You should really look up how tariffs work. They drive up prices for goods manufactured outside the US. Local goods are unaffected, giving them a competitive advantage.
DrFistington@lemmy.world
on 06 Aug 22:43
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What about situations where there are no alternative us made products
I honestly don't get whatever "it" is. Again, if you don't understand what a tariff is, it's very simple to look it up. Don't take my word for it.
Petter1@discuss.tchncs.de
on 06 Aug 23:14
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If there is no alternative from US, the price of that product category as whole will rise, ultimately being paid by US citizens, meaning it is just a hidden tax rise 😘
Read all of the comments here. I'm not disagreeing that it would drive prices up, I'm disagreeing that there would be tariffs on American products, because that's not how tariffs work.
This feels like semantics. Sure, domestically made products wouldn’t have tariffs directly applied. But they will still increase in price as a result of this policy.
Which most of us here have reduced to “prices will rise on USA made products as a result of these tariffs”.
So yes, tariffs aren’t applied to domestic productions directly, but the end product will still cost more and the reason will be the tariffs.
This is not semantics. The statement was "this will only affect goods manufactured in the US". No amount of semantics will make that correct.
Otherwise yes, I agree.
To expand slightly, I don't think tariffs are a inherently a bad idea. As part of a larger plan (in tandem with Biden's "build back better" financial incentives and other measures) they can be effective. Yes, they will increase prices. That's going to happen simply because the US generally doesn't exploit exploit cheap/slave labor. At least nowhere near the level of China. In the long term, theoretically, it brings jobs back to America and the median income increases. If you want to talk about affordability there are an infinite number of ways to improve that as well.
However, the way Trump has implemented them is haphazard, lazy, and unclear. Without even a concept of a plan. And the next President could very well wipe them all out overnight, thereby fucking any factories that made the decision to migrate. So yeah, they will absolutely fail.
Boddhisatva@lemmy.world
on 06 Aug 22:44
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I honestly can’t tell if you’re serious. You do know that the vast majority of the chips in all the devices you use are not manufactured in the US? Doubling the prices of the chips imported to manufacture devices here will obviously jack up the prices of those devices
The tariffs only apply to the imported products. That's how tariffs work. If you import components into a US product then you only pay the tariff on those components, not the entire product.
some_designer_dude@lemmy.world
on 06 Aug 23:01
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Sounds like you can save 85% by putting some googly eyes on the chip and calling it a finished product. It’s Chippy, the pointy pet that fits in your pocket.
So any product containing chips will have a 100% tariff applied?
Edit: product imported to the USA
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 06 Aug 23:25
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It’ll probably be 100% tariff for the chip, and whatever the rate is for that country on the rest of the product. That’s assuming they go into that much detail, because if they don’t, it would be easy to dodge.
I import exhaust parts made from steel. They are tarriffed as exhaust parts. Raw steel has its own import HTS code.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 03:08
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Right, but a microchip is quite a different beast than raw steel. Nobody is going to buy a muffler to melt down to produce something else, but they might buy a PC to scavenge for parts. It’s relatively easy to pull a chip off a board, whereas reforming steel is a lot more intensive.
Yes, and since those products are only imported, it won't affect US products, like I said.
arcterus@piefed.blahaj.zone
on 06 Aug 23:18
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Pretty sure that's their point. Say a product costs $100 dollars with no tariffs. If you import the product from the EU with a 15% tariff, it's now $115 with tariffs (assuming no tariffs importing the chips into the EU). If you manufacture the product in the US, you need to pay 100% tariffs for all the chips. Obviously the impact depends on how much the chips cost relative to the entire product, but if the chips are half the cost ($50), then with a 100% tariff you're now paying $150 for the product manufactured in the US.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 06 Aug 23:29
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Surely the tariff would apply separately, so the imported cost would be $157.50 ($50 chip @ 100% tariff + $50 everything else @ 15% tariff).
If they didn’t apply separately, the tariff would be trivial to dodge.
arcterus@piefed.blahaj.zone
on 06 Aug 23:54
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Looking into it, the US implementation goes down into the components, so yes. Except, I believe it'd be $50 chip @ 100%, other components at whatever tariff rates they may have, and then the 15% per-country/region tariff applies to all of it on top. So if the other components have no tariffs, it'd be $172.50. I'm now wondering how expensive everything would end up if you have tariffs on materials as well.
In any case though, it becomes ludicrously expensive no matter what because you're at most dodging the 15%.
EDIT: You can also dodge some of the tariffs if some percentage of the product is made in the US. I wonder if you'd be able to dodge the chip tariff if the materials for it were partially sourced from the US. If possible, that'd probably be cheaper for companies than actually trying to manufacture chips here.
EDIT 2: Actually your calculation may be right, I'm having a hard time finding how they're actually meant to be calculated. Admittedly it seems a bit weird to me that the rate would override the country-specific rate and thus be the same for chips from the EU and China, but I suppose none of this makes sense in the first place.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 00:16
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Yeah, I’m guessing if you just imported the wafers but did packaging in the US, you could probably get an exception. But I’m not well-versed in the law to know.
Its really fucking lame to label everyone you don't understand as a "troll/bot".
I don't know how many ways there are to explain that tariffs only impact imported goods. If it's manufactured in the US, there is no tariff. This is, in fact, how tariffs work.
arcterus@piefed.blahaj.zone
on 07 Aug 10:15
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My dude, the chips aren't manufactured in the US. If the tariffs don't apply to the chips that are inherently imported from outside the US since basically only TSMC and Samsung make them at this point, then there is no tariff at all. Companies in the US import the chips, then use the imported chips as part of their products. All the companies in the US do is assemble the imported parts (and sometimes not even that).
EDIT: Ah, there was a miscommunication. I think we're both saying the same thing at this point. Well, mostly the same, since this doesn't really help US companies and just drives up prices for everything.
The real problem seems to be that none of the news articles try to dig into what Trump’s vague and ambiguous wording actually means. They just report his nonsense verbatim. Does “building in the USA” mean building chips or building products containing chips?
candyman337@lemmy.world
on 06 Aug 23:01
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So you’re an AI right? Like no real person would believe this
This was a few days ago but wasn’t it the case that imported chips to be used in American products would be tariffed at the time of import? Why wouldn’t that be the case?
I think they assume that a USA device would have tariff only on the imported chips inside, whereas a device from another country would have its chips tariffed, as well as an additional tariff on the full device when imported.
I don’t know if this is the case or not because Trump is unclear and as others have pointed out this would be trivial to evade if components aren’t tariffed separately.
No matter what those in the USA would be paying more for electronics.
Not correct. Once again, tariffs only affect imported goods. If you buy an iPhone built in China (assuming you import to the US) you're going to pay a tariff on the device.
If you buy a phone built in America, with Chinese processors, you only pay tariff on the processor.
Wispy2891@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 05:20
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He meant that this is a disincentive to manufacture a phone in the USA.
Phone built in china: 30% tariff on the total assembled unit (this week is 30% or it changed again?)
Phone built in USA: 30% tariff on all the components because they’re made in China, 100% tariff on the processor, AND spend 1000% more in assembling the device because finding, training and paying skilled workers is way more expensive
Maybe there might be an incentive to move production to a country different from China, but the situation changes too wildly. The risk of spend millions to move production to Vietnam to get a lower rate, then a week later Trump gets diarrhea from eating a bahn mi and imposes an immediate 50% tariff as revenge
What? Are you putting American chips in these phones manufactured in China? Why would you think they wouldn't be subjected to the chip tariff?
If you manufactured it in the USA there are no tariffs. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Manufactured in the USA = no tariffs. Manufactured outside the USA = tariffs. It's really that simple.
Labor has always been more expensive in the US, that's why tariffs exist.
BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk
on 07 Aug 11:26
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The question comes down to whether a phone with a chip in it is subject to the tariff or just raw chips being imported. No one is putting a US chip in it, because US chips don’t exist. The foundries to make them don’t exist.
If the assembled phone is subject to a “phone” or “general” tariff at 30% and not the 100% chip tariff then it incentivises manufacturing in china vs the US is what I think the OP is saying.
Perhaps somehow we still believe he wouldn’t fuck over Americans that much.
There’s chips in everything and they simply won’t be made domestically any time soon.
Wispy2891@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 16:25
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tariffs are over the final product, not the individual components inside that product.
For example Ford was making a cargo van in turkey, but thanks to the chicken tax that they themselves lobbied for, a cargo van made in turkey would have a 25% tariff. Solution: make passenger vans in turkey, import them with 0% tariff, then pay an american to remove and send the passenger seats to the landfill and get a cargo van
Ever wondered why converse shoes have felt on the sole? Because in this way they’re “by tariff definition” slippers, and slippers have less tax than shoes.
Because tariffs are crude pieces of legislation. The US can’t make their own phones anyway, even with 1000% china tariffs, for years. You can’t just click your fingers and have manufacturing at that scale and quality exist.
Well if the US manufacturers need to import chips (read: the item proposed to be subject to a 100% tariff) in order to make their phone with a “competitive advantage”, as you’ve claimed above, then the manufacturers will be impacted by tariffs.
That cost then gets passed onto the consumer.
The phone assembled in the US using imported parts is directly impacted by tariffs. Consumers only care about the end price, not who paid what tariff and at which point of manufacturing.
I don’t know how many ways people can explain this to you and you don’t get it. I’m assuming you’re trolling because this is extremely basic stuff.
there’s a youtube video from “smarter every day” that showed his attempt to make something 100% in the USA.
The item was just a barbecue scrubber, with just a few components.
He needed a simple screw… NOBODY made that in the US…
He needed a simple plastic knob… NOBODY made that in the US (he bought 10k “american” knobs but once arrived there was a MADE IN COSTA RICA sign)
He wanted to make injection molds in the US… NOBODY did that, he had to find some retired expert to help him.
So, if you assemble stuff in US, you still need to import EVERYTHING, paying the same tariff and with more expensive labor. Tariffs need to be carefully considered and target a specific item in order to have some positive effect
God, this response is just fucking lazy and boring. You could at least make interesting when you lob ad hominems because you don't understand the conversation. We were not discussing the merits of tariffs, we were discussing the facts. And the fact is that tariffs only negatively impact imported goods, by nature of being a tariff...
SaltSong@startrek.website
on 07 Aug 17:50
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Right, but this tariff, at least as I understand it, is on chips imported as chips, not on products that contain chips. An iPhone will, of course, be subject to some other damn fool tariff, but not this specific one.
Of course, my understanding of this specific tariff may be wrong.
SaltSong@startrek.website
on 07 Aug 18:33
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That’s generally how tariffs work. A tariff on grain is not a tariff on bread. A tariff on steel is not a tariff on knives. A tariff on cotton is not a tariff on clothing.
It can be, of course. A tariff can be on steel and items made with steel. But that’s not usually the case, and it’s usually called out as such. Of course, Trump is not what you’d call the most precise communicator in the world, but all we can do is work with what he says.
It’s a tax of 100% on chips being imported to the USA, having been manufactured elsewhere. The idea is that it should force companies to set up their own chip manufacturing in the USA. But that’s expensive and slow to do, and requires a lot of specialized engineering talent, so US-based electronics companies will somehow have to survive through years of paying twice as much for the chips they build into their products. This will mean significant price increases for Americans buying electronics, as the unavoidable costs are passed on.
MyNamesTotallyRobert@lemmynsfw.com
on 07 Aug 01:15
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Expecting companies to build their own chip foundries and manufacture their own chips to avoid tariffs is as unrealistic as expecting poor people to singlehandedly use nuclear fission to create atoms from nothing to materialize into existence all the food they can’t afford. Even if these American “use AI for everything” megacorp regimes that can’t even write a mouse driver that’s under 1gb actually put their big swingin’ dicks back into their pants long enough to actually figure out how they could be efficient enough use the more achievable 90nm and 65nm chips, even that is so unachievable they’d never find a way to mass produce them affordably. Russia supposedly managed to diy their own 350nm chips which is barely even mid 90s Pentium 1 era bullshit and even that’s probably fake propaganda that, best case, followed some half successful low volume experiments in a lab.
The only purpose of this is to cause mass calamity and force people further into poverty while corporations have an excuse to make everything even more expensive without giving anything back to society in return.
ozymandias117@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 01:56
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He’s been trying to prevent the US from manufacturing their own chips, so that can’t be the real goal…
The comments were Trump’s strongest criticism of the bipartisan CHIPS Act to date. “We don’t have to give them money,” Trump said, suggesting that avoiding new tariffs would be enough to convince them to build U.S. factories.
I think that, insofar as Trump has a coherent view, that’s it: he doesn’t want to give companies money to establish chip manufacturing in the USA, because he thinks it can be done instead by bullying them with tariffs so they are forced to fund it themselves if they want to stay in business.
I’m not saying that’s a wise view. There’s a good chance he just ends up creating more economic problems at home. And it’s in part driven by his desire to get revenge on Biden by undoing everything he did, rather than a rational appraisal of economics.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 06 Aug 23:32
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I’m guessing the chip in the finished product would be taxed separately, otherwise it would be trivial to dodge the tariff (just package the chip in a different “finished product” and move it to a US-made product).
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 13:00
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I’m guessing the chip in the finished product would be taxed separately, otherwise it would be trivial to dodge the tariff (just package the chip in a different “finished product” and move it to a US-made product).
You’d guess wrong. Welcome to the wonderful world of tariffs and import/export controls!
I wouldn’t call it a trivial dodge because the act of building the tariffed good into another product takes time and resources at the origin side, then again at the destination side to undo the manufacturing steps. However, sometimes its worth it to a company. There are lots of examples of companies doing exactly this.
Ford Transit Connect cargo vans were made in Turkey. Ford wanted to import them to the USA. However, there was a tariff placed on vehicles for commercial use, so Ford installed cheap passengers seats in the back and imported them as passenger vehicles. As soon as the vehicles would arrive onshore in the USA, Ford would rip the cheap seats out, and sell them as commercial vehicles.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 14:31
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Do you have examples of individual components being swapped to avoid tariffs?
For PC parts, it would be very inexpensive to make a cheap mobo, chassis, and UX. E.g., they could put a high end server CPU or something into one of those small handhelds (like Anbernic devices), and then move it to an actual server in the US. Those chips can run more than $1k, while those Anbernic devices tend to run a couple hundred, so the small overhead would absolutely be worth being taxed at 15% instead of 100%.
Surely regulators have learned from the Ford Transit thing…
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 16:21
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Do you have examples of individual components being swapped to avoid tariffs?
I don’t, but these new tariffs don’t match what we’d had before.
The closest I can think of is one scheme to avoid aluminum import tariffs. A company cut bar stock into longer lengths and did the cheapest/fastest/worst job of spot welding them together into the shape of a finished good (a chair or table, can’t remember). The “chairs” were imported, then the receiving company simply broken the simple spot welds and fed the again-bar-stock into manufacturing processes.
For PC parts, it would be very inexpensive to make a cheap mobo, chassis, and UX. E.g., they could put a high end server CPU or something into one of those small handhelds (like Anbernic devices), and then move it to an actual server in the US.
It would be cheaper, but not inexpensive. This would require setting up an entire manufacturing assembly line to create and assemble the carrier product, and a reciprocal dis-assembly line on the other side to reclaim the desired CPU part. Its doable, but quite a bit of additional expense when the straight non-bypass method is a robot removing a CPU from a tray and inserting it directly into the finished product. Would it be worth it? Potentially yes! That’s why I made my first post here on the topic.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 17:51
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The “chairs” were imported, then the receiving company simply broken the simple spot welds and fed the again-bar-stock into manufacturing processes.
Lol. That’s basically the same thing as I suggested for PC part swaps.
Thanks for the example. Let’s see what happens w/ the tariffs and how industry responds, because I highly doubt datacenters would be happy paying 2x for their parts.
spankmonkey@lemmy.world
on 06 Aug 23:06
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The last 6 months have been the longest decade of my life.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
on 07 Aug 11:22
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Luck is also a component in how long Trump lives ; though he’s not that old.
OK, I’ll say it differently - luck is also a component in how long Putin lives, and that’s likely less. When he dies, there’s gonna be change. In USA too. In Russia - maybe not for the better immediately, but that will be a power transfer, which hasn’t happened since 1999. Even if to someone of his daughters.
I don’t subscribe to any of stupid theories of “Kremlin towers’ balance”, “businessmen vs patriots” and such, but the point stands, and the previous power transfer, from Yeltsin to Putin, despite them being the same faction, changed a lot and fast.
Which could mean some of the blackmail material leaking, or the direction of blackmail changing, or other ties being restructured. Which would pull the rug from many of Russia-aligned parties in the west, and it would be interesting to see whether Democrats or Republicans are affected more, in case of US, and whether local alt-right parties or the orderly centrists in EU are affected more. The common belief is that it’s the latter in the US and the former in the EU, but I think we’ll be surprised.
Now, Russia is small compared to other parties, but big enough to make waves in case of such an event.
they ALL do this. they just market it differently. profits are at record highs and have been for YEARS. while working class people suffer and die.
kylie_kraft@lemmy.world
on 06 Aug 22:25
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What’s interesting about this is that Ghislaine Maxwell just got a transfer to a cushy facility in exchange for what is likely to be heavily coached testimony about how Donald Trump totally didn’t rape children.
Reverendender@sh.itjust.works
on 06 Aug 22:37
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My hope is that he signs the pardon before she testifies, and then she burns him down on the stand.
Petter1@discuss.tchncs.de
on 06 Aug 23:04
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As if she would… She will just do what she do best, just not for Epstein, but for mr president himself, I fear…
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world
on 06 Aug 23:16
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Why would he pardon her? Prison is sheer hell and she got a huge upgrade. Fuck around and they can take that back. They got all the leverage they need without the screams of outrage a pardon would bring.
ToadOfHypnosis@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 03:20
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Prison really is not that bad - especially federal prison. It’s boring but if you are poor, so is regular life. Don’t pay rent, don’t pay for health care, get 3 square meals that are about as shitty as shelter food. The gang violence stuff is pretty easy to avoid overall - again, especially in federal prison. State prisons are crappier in most states.
How much prison time have you served in state and federal prisons, if I may ask?
Forgive me for asking, it’s just to judge how much direct experience you have with what you’re claiming to be knowledgeable on.
There are sadly a lot of people in the Internet who would say such things without ever having actually experienced them firsthand, and it’s important we educate ourselves on the difference. Thanks!
ToadOfHypnosis@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 04:42
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Not going to go into to detail as this is a public forum but I have years of experience, yes.
ToadOfHypnosis@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 04:57
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I think calling it “hell” is a bit silly. It’s only hell if you are a loud mouth idiot who can’t stop getting into drama. Is being out with a good job better, yes. But TV and the news dramatize it drastically. You basically sit around and read / watch TV most of the time in medium security. I think most people would be surprised how much less terrible it is than it’s hyped to be. If I had to choose prison or being incredibly poor / homeless - I’d choose prison.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
on 07 Aug 11:12
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offtopic: Maybe that’s why a transparent and safe prison system, a bit like what Norway has, would do well for USA. Don’t tell me anything about feeding criminals in luxury, because you are spending far more taxpayer money on far more idiotic things. Also rehabilitation is really a big thing.
Well we shouldn’t be letting them back out so rehabilitation is pointless and impossible anyway. If you can’t understand that fucking kids is bad without being institutionalized you’re a lost cause
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
on 08 Aug 04:14
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There’s plenty of context, the best is that nobody has the moral right to punish others.
No one has a moral right to fuck kids either and they have to be dealt with so they don’t fuck more kids. There is no “context” that makes that excusable.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
on 08 Aug 13:47
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Just how they rehabilitate murderers, other sexual offenders, and who not. People change over time. The part that doesn’t change (for pedophiles) is their attraction to children (unless, well, they intentionally do something like chemical castration or whatever), but that’s not their crime, the act is their crime. If an examination by mental health specialists and who not deems they won’t commit such crimes anymore, there’s no reason at all to keep them locked up. Maybe with certain amount of tracking.
Mental health specialists are wrong all the time. Prisoners lie to get out of prison. No amount of risk to children is acceptable, especially for someone who’s already proven themselves a danger. There is no benefit to anyone besides the predator letting them back out.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
on 08 Aug 17:35
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Rehabilitation doesn’t have to go as far as letting them back out. There are different kinds of conditions, of ability to communicate with the outside world, to work etc. One might even make special isolated settlements where people live almost as if they were free, but can’t escape.
Why bother with all that when it only benefits child molesters? They should be happy with the fact that our justice system is flawed enough that we can’t just execute them like they deserve. There are valuable members of society those resources could be directed towards.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
on 08 Aug 17:44
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I read those news in a way that she’s now in a low risk facility with plenty of other people around who might casually remove a witness, rather than stuck in isolation in a max security prison where every ‘suicide’ would be met with public outrage.
Just tell him computer chips are made of McDonalds and diet coke, several problems will solve themselves shortly after.
MyOpinion@lemmy.today
on 07 Aug 02:15
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What a piece of human shit Trump is.
Bennyboybumberchums@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 02:18
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All the dangers they tell us about being over weight and eating like shit, and this mother fucker is still clinging to life like an 80s action hero clings to the underside of a helicopter at the climax of the movie. Come on clogged arteries, do something!
Doomsider@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 03:21
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The truth is most human maladies are combination of environment and viruses. The two thing our current administration refuses to do anything about.
cardfire@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 15:32
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MyNameIsIgglePiggle@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 12:48
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I watched part of this announcement and he said something I normally don’t pick up on
“If they have started to build or have plans to build they don’t have to pay the tariff.”
Sounds like.jobs.
But what I heard was it was a discount for the oligarchy. Why do you only get a discount if you are in the position to at least pretend to be building a factory?
And then since prices are now double, you get to import and sell at an easy profit.
explodicle@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 14:32
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Even once it opens, it’s cheaper to pay taxes on an empty factory than it is to pay tariffs or American workers.
Yeah, Apple’s stock went up 5% yesterday because of Tim Cook’s meeting with Trump (where he promised $600 billion investment in US manufacturing), and Apple’s saying they won’t be affected by the new 50% tariffs on India. There are also ghost factories that were built during Trump’s first term.
America in a few years when no one wants their goods anymore and every country outside the US ramped up production since US is the most unreliable partner ever.
Does the US actually have any domestic manufacturing of anything other than basic commodity products?
There is that YouTuber who’s trying to make a pan scrubber something in the US, and he’s finding it really difficult to be able to find manufacturers for the various components.
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 21:40
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It’s a brush for scrubbing barbecue grills, priced at an affordable $87.
bitjunkie@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 13:34
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I want it in audiobook format. Read by Will Wheaton.
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 21:38
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Excuse me? LeVar Burton is still alive.
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 14:20
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What do you mean “likely pushing up cost of electronics”. That is the literal point of a tariff, to push the prices up and make competing goods more appealing to consumers. The only way it doesnt raise prices is if importers just eat the cost, which they will almost certainly not do and, frankly, shouldn’t do.
turtlesareneat@discuss.online
on 07 Aug 14:28
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Yes, but the media is willing to lie for him and whatever form necessary to normalize all this
explodicle@sh.itjust.works
on 07 Aug 14:29
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Every American needs to be forced to learn the components of a supply and demand diagram.
AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:23
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CPUs are so expensive, I guess I’ll buy a good old US made abacus instead!
JackbyDev@programming.dev
on 07 Aug 18:34
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Damn, if only we had some bill that would increase manufacturing of chips domestically. It would be foolish to cancel such a bill while also creating a tariff. How will people favor domestic manufacturing without that manufacturing existing? Surely the president would never do that.
MapleEngineer@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 15:38
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In the US the point of tarrifs is to tax the poor to pay for tax breaks for the rich.
The important won’t eat the costs because there’s literally no reason for them to do that.
The tariffs don’t actually upset shipping companies, they literally do not care. They continue to sell the product at exactly the same prices it always cost, once it arrives in a US port, that’s the end of the transaction as far as they are concerned, since the tariffs apply after that, they are irrelevant.
blakemiller@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 19:17
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I’ll throw in the “well actually” here so no one gets wrapped around the axle — the true point of tariffs are to boost domestic business at the expense of weakening foreign sales. The scales tipped in favor of domestic businesses should be advantageous and arguably a good strategy in some circumstances …in a vacuum. That’s the “well actually” and it’s worth nothing in 2025 because all advantage is nullified if those domestic businesses lack the skill and resources to produce said goods. The industries currently targeted by tariffs are so huge and complex that domestic businesses stand zero chance (even with tariffs) in place to replicate the technology, supply chain, and workforce that would be able to stand competitively toe-to-toe with the global market.
So it’s entirely a tax on Americans by another name, and for zero gain.
In this case there are no competing domestic products though, or few enough as makes little difference. This is just taxation with extra steps.
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 19:57
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Yes, I did mean in the ideal sense, there is a functional purpose for raising the prices of foreign goods IF there is a domestic alternative you wish to boost or expand. But the mechanism for the benefit, IF(big if) there is one, is the increase in price. Tariff (ideally) equals targetted price increases. Saying tariffs might raise prices is like saying stabbing you might wound you. I might have a good reason for wounding you, I might not, but the wounding will happen as a direct consequences of my stabbing you, regardless.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
on 07 Aug 15:27
nextcollapse
Fuck, I’m going to have to go back to doing math in my head again, aren’t I?
brucethemoose@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 18:04
nextcollapse
A bit of chip history: Taiwan Semiconductor (the current pseudo-monoply in cutting edge processor making) rose as Taiwan the country transitioned from a dictatorship to democracy.
They got state funding, and support for thier business as trade opened up. To simplify, it was like a mix of hyper free-trade capitalism and technocratic command economy/socialism no one on either end of political spectrum would like. And it worked! It’s still working.
The CHIPS act in the US was a baby step in that direction, which (even with Intel’s incredible corporate dysfunction) got me excited.
…And that is basically the opposite of what Trump is proposing.
Basically, take away Intel/Micron/IBM subsidies and tax the shit out of their existing overseas business. And deregulate them instead of directing them.
In other words, drain their capital, and give them free reign to think short term as their manufacturing circles the drain.
To be fair to Trump, most business people do not grasp how indescribably capital/research intense processor manufacturing is. Investment is in the many billions, planning takes decades and is extremely technical, and dependent on economic and research forecasts. They have to be forced to think long term, given truckloads of cash to do it, and not get derailed by quarterly earnings targets and cutting long-term projects on the vine for quick cash.
But still… this is like the worst thing he could have done, IMO.
DarkFuture@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 19:22
nextcollapse
CHIPS Act. Yet another major Biden win that gets overlooked in favor of shitting on him.
Biden did a lot of great stuff but the USA would rather live in a reality TV show from hell while marching towards authoritarianism apparently. Oh wait, they don’t understand any of that shit because half of them can’t fucking read.
Yes, we all know the most successful economic endeavors are funded by taxpayers. Then leeches come in to steal the profits from the public and useful idiots are all-to-proud to support them.
Just look at how Iceland has the cheapest electricity on the planet; it’s because they built their infrastructure using public money without an incentive to maximize profit.
brucethemoose@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 22:47
collapse
That’s not what I’m implying.
TSMC would not have thrived if it was purely nationalized, and could have easily collapsed into capitalist hell.
For the processor fab business, specifically, the ideal conditions seem to be some kind of bastardized hybrid. Samsung and China Semi are not far from ‘hybrids’ either, while the corpses of pure extremes (GloFo, Intel, the Soviet’s and modern Russia’s computing efforts, DARPA projects, other pure government efforts and some RISC ones) are littered everywhere.
Intel was heading towards a state-supported hybrid, but apparently not anymore (and is now barreling into capitalist collapse).
The other part of what I’m saying is this does not necessarily apply to, say, the hotel business like Trump is channeling, where short term maneuvering and branding pay off more. Nor engergy generation, which is different too (and probably should be nationalized in such a geothermal-heavy place like Iceland).
In which nation is energy generation not using vast natural resources at huge initial outlay where companies have a boner for monopolising or cartels and exploiting scarcity to drive up prices?
Side note: DARPA’s TCP/IP networky thing seems to have had some future in it!
DarkFuture@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 18:51
nextcollapse
Conservatives are 100% onboard with a felon rapist pedo skyrocketing our cost of living while destroying our global reputation.
If anyone is still unsure if conservatives are traitors to our nation, now is the time to pinch yourself and wake up.
I wouldn’t call them traitors but they do embody everything else that makes a person horrible! If you’re a republican I seriously hope you get bad allergi s diarrhea and stuck in traffic at the same time, no sun if your car windows get stuck up too.
Traitors to the constitution, traitors to democracy, traitors to free and fair elections, traitors to the founding fathers, traitors to the people and even traitors to the union and the flag. What were you waiting for them to betray before you call them traitors?
Montreal_Metro@lemmy.ca
on 07 Aug 19:31
nextcollapse
Do it, idiot.
MNByChoice@midwest.social
on 07 Aug 19:57
nextcollapse
Perhaps this could tax the huge data centers being built in the USA, which tend to get huge local tax incentives. But, if I had a data center I was trying to kit out, this would encourage me to setup shop any place other than the USA. (Latency matters, but not equally for everything.)
Dead_or_Alive@lemmy.world
on 07 Aug 22:42
nextcollapse
It’s simultaneously a grift and a way to impose a flat sales tax all in one package.
Republicans have been creaming their pants for years at the thought of imposing a regressive flat tax on all sales while doing away with income based taxation. This would forever shift the majority of the tax burden to the poor and middle class. Which is why we see Trump cutting taxes on the wealthy with his Big Ugly Bill and imposing a tariff as a way to tax the unwashed masses while simultaneously claiming he isn’t. Hopefully the courts strike down his power grab and force Congress to vote on Tariffs. The weasels will probably give it to them but at least we get to see Republicans go on record as voting for a tax increase.
Trump has announced or will announce tariff exemptions that benefit large companies that have donated to him. Sometime later if he feels he needs more money he will announce a higher random tariff on the exempted goods and shake these corps down for more money/favors. All the while he can claim he is doing our industry a favor.
Never forget Trump is a grifting piece of shit who will always stick it to the little guy.
sturmblast@lemmy.world
on 08 Aug 01:05
nextcollapse
He’ll back down from this like everything but what a fucking complete moron
imposedsensation@lemmynsfw.com
on 08 Aug 01:08
nextcollapse
I was looking at the stock performance of Semiconductors today and they’re pretty much all green except for Intel. Why? Because they’ve all announced plans to invest in the US (even though they probably won’t ever make good on their commitments). That buys them an exception to the tariffs. So it’s pretty much a 100% tariff on no major player. Intel was down because Tom Cotton and now Trump are attacking their new CEO Lip Bu Tan who has a long successful track record in the industry but has Chinese investments which they think somehow implicates him or creates a national security risk even though TSMC is ahead of Intel in fab capability. Anyway the point is this is just rhetorical grand standing with no serious impact.
I mean the whole point of tariffs is to bring manufacturing to your country, so if they actually did that that would be a major win, but I’m highly doubtful, they’ll probably just wait it out since the US can’t survive by blocking literally every high end chip from being imported.
astutemural@midwest.social
on 08 Aug 03:34
nextcollapse
Well that’s entirely the posters fault.
They’re really fanatic in wanting to post every stupid thing he says or does (which is daily).
As if there isn’t any real news out there.
NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone
on 08 Aug 09:35
nextcollapse
Could I not just avoid this entirely by buying electronic products from literally anywhere else though?
threaded - newest
1000%, 2500%, 600%, 1500%
I like that! It always sucked that everything is more expensive here in EU, Trump’s trying to help us by making it even more expensive in the US.
From the bleachers, we watch the Trump shitshow daily. The topic of the show is: “What can Donald Trump still do today to appear even dumber than the day before?”
And he is not disappointing. What’s next? Tariffs for interstate trading? One must admit, this would be a really dumb idea, but it is not outside Trumps grasp.
Looks like we just found our new interstate secretary! Tell us more about these tariffs against California.
Wouldn’t this only affect goods manufactured in the USA? If a finished product containing chips from say, Europe, were to land on USA shores it would only have a 15% tariff right?
Why does trump hate American manufacturing?
Huh? No, it's the opposite. You should really look up how tariffs work. They drive up prices for goods manufactured outside the US. Local goods are unaffected, giving them a competitive advantage.
What about situations where there are no alternative us made products
Then there are no US products to affect?
Are you a troll?
Or do you really not get it??
I honestly don't get whatever "it" is. Again, if you don't understand what a tariff is, it's very simple to look it up. Don't take my word for it.
If there is no alternative from US, the price of that product category as whole will rise, ultimately being paid by US citizens, meaning it is just a hidden tax rise 😘
I agree but that's not what we were discussing
Read all of the comments here, there are many stating why this would drive costs way up.
Read all of the comments here. I'm not disagreeing that it would drive prices up, I'm disagreeing that there would be tariffs on American products, because that's not how tariffs work.
This feels like semantics. Sure, domestically made products wouldn’t have tariffs directly applied. But they will still increase in price as a result of this policy.
Which most of us here have reduced to “prices will rise on USA made products as a result of these tariffs”.
So yes, tariffs aren’t applied to domestic productions directly, but the end product will still cost more and the reason will be the tariffs.
I think we agree now, yes?
This is not semantics. The statement was "this will only affect goods manufactured in the US". No amount of semantics will make that correct.
Otherwise yes, I agree.
To expand slightly, I don't think tariffs are a inherently a bad idea. As part of a larger plan (in tandem with Biden's "build back better" financial incentives and other measures) they can be effective. Yes, they will increase prices. That's going to happen simply because the US generally doesn't exploit exploit cheap/slave labor. At least nowhere near the level of China. In the long term, theoretically, it brings jobs back to America and the median income increases. If you want to talk about affordability there are an infinite number of ways to improve that as well.
However, the way Trump has implemented them is haphazard, lazy, and unclear. Without even a concept of a plan. And the next President could very well wipe them all out overnight, thereby fucking any factories that made the decision to migrate. So yeah, they will absolutely fail.
I honestly can’t tell if you’re serious. You do know that the vast majority of the chips in all the devices you use are not manufactured in the US? Doubling the prices of the chips imported to manufacture devices here will obviously jack up the prices of those devices
Why wouldn't I be serious? If they're manufactured outside the US then they're obviously not manufactured in the US?
I believe they’re referring to products made in the USA that contain chips.
As in importing chips would be 100% but importing a product that contains chips would be 15%?
The tariffs only apply to the imported products. That's how tariffs work. If you import components into a US product then you only pay the tariff on those components, not the entire product.
Sounds like you can save 85% by putting some googly eyes on the chip and calling it a finished product. It’s Chippy, the pointy pet that fits in your pocket.
Right.
Isn’t that in agreement with OP? Any products made in USA that contain chips will cost more to make due to the 100% tariff on the chips.
No, OP said it only applied to US products. It's applied to all imported products. That's what a tariff is.
So any product containing chips will have a 100% tariff applied?
Edit: product imported to the USA
It’ll probably be 100% tariff for the chip, and whatever the rate is for that country on the rest of the product. That’s assuming they go into that much detail, because if they don’t, it would be easy to dodge.
I import exhaust parts made from steel. They are tarriffed as exhaust parts. Raw steel has its own import HTS code.
Right, but a microchip is quite a different beast than raw steel. Nobody is going to buy a muffler to melt down to produce something else, but they might buy a PC to scavenge for parts. It’s relatively easy to pull a chip off a board, whereas reforming steel is a lot more intensive.
Yes, and since those products are only imported, it won't affect US products, like I said.
Pretty sure that's their point. Say a product costs $100 dollars with no tariffs. If you import the product from the EU with a 15% tariff, it's now $115 with tariffs (assuming no tariffs importing the chips into the EU). If you manufacture the product in the US, you need to pay 100% tariffs for all the chips. Obviously the impact depends on how much the chips cost relative to the entire product, but if the chips are half the cost ($50), then with a 100% tariff you're now paying $150 for the product manufactured in the US.
Surely the tariff would apply separately, so the imported cost would be $157.50 ($50 chip @ 100% tariff + $50 everything else @ 15% tariff).
If they didn’t apply separately, the tariff would be trivial to dodge.
Looking into it, the US implementation goes down into the components, so yes. Except, I believe it'd be $50 chip @ 100%, other components at whatever tariff rates they may have, and then the 15% per-country/region tariff applies to all of it on top. So if the other components have no tariffs, it'd be $172.50. I'm now wondering how expensive everything would end up if you have tariffs on materials as well.
In any case though, it becomes ludicrously expensive no matter what because you're at most dodging the 15%.
EDIT: You can also dodge some of the tariffs if some percentage of the product is made in the US. I wonder if you'd be able to dodge the chip tariff if the materials for it were partially sourced from the US. If possible, that'd probably be cheaper for companies than actually trying to manufacture chips here.
EDIT 2: Actually your calculation may be right, I'm having a hard time finding how they're actually meant to be calculated. Admittedly it seems a bit weird to me that the rate would override the country-specific rate and thus be the same for chips from the EU and China, but I suppose none of this makes sense in the first place.
Yeah, I’m guessing if you just imported the wafers but did packaging in the US, you could probably get an exception. But I’m not well-versed in the law to know.
Incorrect. Once again, tariffs are only for imported products. That's how tariffs work.
I'm convinced you're a troll/bot. That is not in fact how tariffs work since the chips are not made in the US.
Its really fucking lame to label everyone you don't understand as a "troll/bot".
I don't know how many ways there are to explain that tariffs only impact imported goods. If it's manufactured in the US, there is no tariff. This is, in fact, how tariffs work.
My dude, the chips aren't manufactured in the US. If the tariffs don't apply to the chips that are inherently imported from outside the US since basically only TSMC and Samsung make them at this point, then there is no tariff at all. Companies in the US import the chips, then use the imported chips as part of their products. All the companies in the US do is assemble the imported parts (and sometimes not even that).
EDIT: Ah, there was a miscommunication. I think we're both saying the same thing at this point. Well, mostly the same, since this doesn't really help US companies and just drives up prices for everything.
The real problem seems to be that none of the news articles try to dig into what Trump’s vague and ambiguous wording actually means. They just report his nonsense verbatim. Does “building in the USA” mean building chips or building products containing chips?
So you’re an AI right? Like no real person would believe this
WTF are you talking about? Did you not go to elementary school?
I feel like there must be a miscommunication/misunderstanding here.
No, they’re trolling. There’s zero chance this was explained this many times and they’re still fighting like they don’t understand what is being said
"Trolling" = discussing facts? You are the one who doesn't understand. It's very simple: US tariffs do not apply to US products.
This was a few days ago but wasn’t it the case that imported chips to be used in American products would be tariffed at the time of import? Why wouldn’t that be the case?
I think they assume that a USA device would have tariff only on the imported chips inside, whereas a device from another country would have its chips tariffed, as well as an additional tariff on the full device when imported.
I don’t know if this is the case or not because Trump is unclear and as others have pointed out this would be trivial to evade if components aren’t tariffed separately.
No matter what those in the USA would be paying more for electronics.
Agreed.
They increase demand for domestic goods and therefor raise the price of goods that were already more expensive than the imported goods.
.
What he means is, if I buy an iPhone built in China, this tariff won’t affect the price I pay.
But if I buy a phone built in America, with an imported processer, this tariff will make that phone more expensive.
Not correct. Once again, tariffs only affect imported goods. If you buy an iPhone built in China (assuming you import to the US) you're going to pay a tariff on the device.
If you buy a phone built in America, with Chinese processors, you only pay tariff on the processor.
He meant that this is a disincentive to manufacture a phone in the USA.
Phone built in china: 30% tariff on the total assembled unit (this week is 30% or it changed again?)
Phone built in USA: 30% tariff on all the components because they’re made in China, 100% tariff on the processor, AND spend 1000% more in assembling the device because finding, training and paying skilled workers is way more expensive
Maybe there might be an incentive to move production to a country different from China, but the situation changes too wildly. The risk of spend millions to move production to Vietnam to get a lower rate, then a week later Trump gets diarrhea from eating a bahn mi and imposes an immediate 50% tariff as revenge
What? Are you putting American chips in these phones manufactured in China? Why would you think they wouldn't be subjected to the chip tariff?
If you manufactured it in the USA there are no tariffs. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Manufactured in the USA = no tariffs. Manufactured outside the USA = tariffs. It's really that simple.
Labor has always been more expensive in the US, that's why tariffs exist.
The question comes down to whether a phone with a chip in it is subject to the tariff or just raw chips being imported. No one is putting a US chip in it, because US chips don’t exist. The foundries to make them don’t exist.
If the assembled phone is subject to a “phone” or “general” tariff at 30% and not the 100% chip tariff then it incentivises manufacturing in china vs the US is what I think the OP is saying.
Why wouldn't the tariff apply to chips already in devices? That's the way its always been discussed.
Perhaps somehow we still believe he wouldn’t fuck over Americans that much.
There’s chips in everything and they simply won’t be made domestically any time soon.
tariffs are over the final product, not the individual components inside that product.
For example Ford was making a cargo van in turkey, but thanks to the chicken tax that they themselves lobbied for, a cargo van made in turkey would have a 25% tariff. Solution: make passenger vans in turkey, import them with 0% tariff, then pay an american to remove and send the passenger seats to the landfill and get a cargo van
That's not correct.
That’s how this import tax work.
Ever wondered why converse shoes have felt on the sole? Because in this way they’re “by tariff definition” slippers, and slippers have less tax than shoes.
www.upworthy.com/why-converse-have-felt-lining
Because tariffs are crude pieces of legislation. The US can’t make their own phones anyway, even with 1000% china tariffs, for years. You can’t just click your fingers and have manufacturing at that scale and quality exist.
Whether they can or do make their own chips is irrelevant to who is impacted by tariffs.
Well if the US manufacturers need to import chips (read: the item proposed to be subject to a 100% tariff) in order to make their phone with a “competitive advantage”, as you’ve claimed above, then the manufacturers will be impacted by tariffs.
That cost then gets passed onto the consumer.
The phone assembled in the US using imported parts is directly impacted by tariffs. Consumers only care about the end price, not who paid what tariff and at which point of manufacturing.
I don’t know how many ways people can explain this to you and you don’t get it. I’m assuming you’re trolling because this is extremely basic stuff.
I don't know how many ways I can explain that none of this is relevant to the discussion at hand. Which is, as a reminder:
All of what you said is true, and yet this statement remains completely incorrect and the opposite of reality.
there’s a youtube video from “smarter every day” that showed his attempt to make something 100% in the USA.
The item was just a barbecue scrubber, with just a few components.
He needed a simple screw… NOBODY made that in the US…
He needed a simple plastic knob… NOBODY made that in the US (he bought 10k “american” knobs but once arrived there was a MADE IN COSTA RICA sign)
He wanted to make injection molds in the US… NOBODY did that, he had to find some retired expert to help him.
So, if you assemble stuff in US, you still need to import EVERYTHING, paying the same tariff and with more expensive labor. Tariffs need to be carefully considered and target a specific item in order to have some positive effect
I don't understand what any of that has to do with this discussion.
Serious or trolling?
You said:
Then I explained to you why it works like this:
Manufactured in the USA = tariffs and expensive labor.
Manufactured outside the USA = tariffs and cheap labor.
It’s really that simple.
Tariffs on everything is an incentive on manufacturing outside the USA as the supply chain is missing and all the parts need to be imported too.
The story would be different if those were targeted tariffs on specific products. In that case it would work in the opposite way
God, this response is just fucking lazy and boring. You could at least make interesting when you lob ad hominems because you don't understand the conversation. We were not discussing the merits of tariffs, we were discussing the facts. And the fact is that tariffs only negatively impact imported goods, by nature of being a tariff...
Right, but this tariff, at least as I understand it, is on chips imported as chips, not on products that contain chips. An iPhone will, of course, be subject to some other damn fool tariff, but not this specific one.
Of course, my understanding of this specific tariff may be wrong.
Where do you see that?
That’s generally how tariffs work. A tariff on grain is not a tariff on bread. A tariff on steel is not a tariff on knives. A tariff on cotton is not a tariff on clothing.
It can be, of course. A tariff can be on steel and items made with steel. But that’s not usually the case, and it’s usually called out as such. Of course, Trump is not what you’d call the most precise communicator in the world, but all we can do is work with what he says.
That's not how tariffs work. You can't just circumvent them by packaging them differently.
Packaging, no. But manufacturing it into something else, yes.
Do you think a tariff on copper would apply to an iPhone? Or a tariff on oil?
...of course?
Do your iPhones usually take oil? 🤔
What do you think plastic is made from?
It’s a tax of 100% on chips being imported to the USA, having been manufactured elsewhere. The idea is that it should force companies to set up their own chip manufacturing in the USA. But that’s expensive and slow to do, and requires a lot of specialized engineering talent, so US-based electronics companies will somehow have to survive through years of paying twice as much for the chips they build into their products. This will mean significant price increases for Americans buying electronics, as the unavoidable costs are passed on.
Expecting companies to build their own chip foundries and manufacture their own chips to avoid tariffs is as unrealistic as expecting poor people to singlehandedly use nuclear fission to create atoms from nothing to materialize into existence all the food they can’t afford. Even if these American “use AI for everything” megacorp regimes that can’t even write a mouse driver that’s under 1gb actually put their big swingin’ dicks back into their pants long enough to actually figure out how they could be efficient enough use the more achievable 90nm and 65nm chips, even that is so unachievable they’d never find a way to mass produce them affordably. Russia supposedly managed to diy their own 350nm chips which is barely even mid 90s Pentium 1 era bullshit and even that’s probably fake propaganda that, best case, followed some half successful low volume experiments in a lab.
The only purpose of this is to cause mass calamity and force people further into poverty while corporations have an excuse to make everything even more expensive without giving anything back to society in return.
He’s been trying to prevent the US from manufacturing their own chips, so that can’t be the real goal…
reuters.com/…/trump-wants-kill-527-billion-semico…
From that article:
I think that, insofar as Trump has a coherent view, that’s it: he doesn’t want to give companies money to establish chip manufacturing in the USA, because he thinks it can be done instead by bullying them with tariffs so they are forced to fund it themselves if they want to stay in business.
I’m not saying that’s a wise view. There’s a good chance he just ends up creating more economic problems at home. And it’s in part driven by his desire to get revenge on Biden by undoing everything he did, rather than a rational appraisal of economics.
I’m guessing the chip in the finished product would be taxed separately, otherwise it would be trivial to dodge the tariff (just package the chip in a different “finished product” and move it to a US-made product).
You’d guess wrong. Welcome to the wonderful world of tariffs and import/export controls!
I wouldn’t call it a trivial dodge because the act of building the tariffed good into another product takes time and resources at the origin side, then again at the destination side to undo the manufacturing steps. However, sometimes its worth it to a company. There are lots of examples of companies doing exactly this.
Ford Transit Connect cargo vans were made in Turkey. Ford wanted to import them to the USA. However, there was a tariff placed on vehicles for commercial use, so Ford installed cheap passengers seats in the back and imported them as passenger vehicles. As soon as the vehicles would arrive onshore in the USA, Ford would rip the cheap seats out, and sell them as commercial vehicles.
Do you have examples of individual components being swapped to avoid tariffs?
For PC parts, it would be very inexpensive to make a cheap mobo, chassis, and UX. E.g., they could put a high end server CPU or something into one of those small handhelds (like Anbernic devices), and then move it to an actual server in the US. Those chips can run more than $1k, while those Anbernic devices tend to run a couple hundred, so the small overhead would absolutely be worth being taxed at 15% instead of 100%.
Surely regulators have learned from the Ford Transit thing…
I don’t, but these new tariffs don’t match what we’d had before.
The closest I can think of is one scheme to avoid aluminum import tariffs. A company cut bar stock into longer lengths and did the cheapest/fastest/worst job of spot welding them together into the shape of a finished good (a chair or table, can’t remember). The “chairs” were imported, then the receiving company simply broken the simple spot welds and fed the again-bar-stock into manufacturing processes.
It would be cheaper, but not inexpensive. This would require setting up an entire manufacturing assembly line to create and assemble the carrier product, and a reciprocal dis-assembly line on the other side to reclaim the desired CPU part. Its doable, but quite a bit of additional expense when the straight non-bypass method is a robot removing a CPU from a tray and inserting it directly into the finished product. Would it be worth it? Potentially yes! That’s why I made my first post here on the topic.
Lol. That’s basically the same thing as I suggested for PC part swaps.
Thanks for the example. Let’s see what happens w/ the tariffs and how industry responds, because I highly doubt datacenters would be happy paying 2x for their parts.
The existing tariffs somehow exclude chips or phones/computers with chips in them. This would be a separate category, like metals.
Narrator: He won’t
🐓🌮
🍊⬆️⬇️⬅️➡️🐥📤
.
It’s fucking tariff roulette again. And so it will be for the next 3.5 years. Stupid cunts. Remember to kick a republican in the nuts.
Next 3.5 years if we are lucky.
The last 6 months have been the longest decade of my life.
Luck is also a component in how long Trump lives ; though he’s not that old.
OK, I’ll say it differently - luck is also a component in how long Putin lives, and that’s likely less. When he dies, there’s gonna be change. In USA too. In Russia - maybe not for the better immediately, but that will be a power transfer, which hasn’t happened since 1999. Even if to someone of his daughters.
I don’t subscribe to any of stupid theories of “Kremlin towers’ balance”, “businessmen vs patriots” and such, but the point stands, and the previous power transfer, from Yeltsin to Putin, despite them being the same faction, changed a lot and fast.
Which could mean some of the blackmail material leaking, or the direction of blackmail changing, or other ties being restructured. Which would pull the rug from many of Russia-aligned parties in the west, and it would be interesting to see whether Democrats or Republicans are affected more, in case of US, and whether local alt-right parties or the orderly centrists in EU are affected more. The common belief is that it’s the latter in the US and the former in the EU, but I think we’ll be surprised.
Now, Russia is small compared to other parties, but big enough to make waves in case of such an event.
You won’t ever need to vote again
*capitalist
they ALL do this. they just market it differently. profits are at record highs and have been for YEARS. while working class people suffer and die.
What’s interesting about this is that Ghislaine Maxwell just got a transfer to a cushy facility in exchange for what is likely to be heavily coached testimony about how Donald Trump totally didn’t rape children.
My hope is that he signs the pardon before she testifies, and then she burns him down on the stand.
As if she would… She will just do what she do best, just not for Epstein, but for mr president himself, I fear…
She would not survive that.
Even better
Sure, but she knows it as well, and I doubt she’d risk her life thusly.
Yeah :(
I think shalafi’s right though; keeping her in rich comfortable prison is how they’re going to control her
Why would he pardon her? Prison is sheer hell and she got a huge upgrade. Fuck around and they can take that back. They got all the leverage they need without the screams of outrage a pardon would bring.
Prison really is not that bad - especially federal prison. It’s boring but if you are poor, so is regular life. Don’t pay rent, don’t pay for health care, get 3 square meals that are about as shitty as shelter food. The gang violence stuff is pretty easy to avoid overall - again, especially in federal prison. State prisons are crappier in most states.
How much prison time have you served in state and federal prisons, if I may ask?
Forgive me for asking, it’s just to judge how much direct experience you have with what you’re claiming to be knowledgeable on.
There are sadly a lot of people in the Internet who would say such things without ever having actually experienced them firsthand, and it’s important we educate ourselves on the difference. Thanks!
Not going to go into to detail as this is a public forum but I have years of experience, yes.
I think calling it “hell” is a bit silly. It’s only hell if you are a loud mouth idiot who can’t stop getting into drama. Is being out with a good job better, yes. But TV and the news dramatize it drastically. You basically sit around and read / watch TV most of the time in medium security. I think most people would be surprised how much less terrible it is than it’s hyped to be. If I had to choose prison or being incredibly poor / homeless - I’d choose prison.
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offtopic: Maybe that’s why a transparent and safe prison system, a bit like what Norway has, would do well for USA. Don’t tell me anything about feeding criminals in luxury, because you are spending far more taxpayer money on far more idiotic things. Also rehabilitation is really a big thing.
Child abusers don’t deserve rehabilitation.
It’s usually considered smart to avoid hard problems.
Thus to say that every criminal deserves rehabilitation. You won’t achieve anything good from taking it from them anyway.
Well we shouldn’t be letting them back out so rehabilitation is pointless and impossible anyway. If you can’t understand that fucking kids is bad without being institutionalized you’re a lost cause
There’s plenty of context, the best is that nobody has the moral right to punish others.
No one has a moral right to fuck kids either and they have to be dealt with so they don’t fuck more kids. There is no “context” that makes that excusable.
Just how they rehabilitate murderers, other sexual offenders, and who not. People change over time. The part that doesn’t change (for pedophiles) is their attraction to children (unless, well, they intentionally do something like chemical castration or whatever), but that’s not their crime, the act is their crime. If an examination by mental health specialists and who not deems they won’t commit such crimes anymore, there’s no reason at all to keep them locked up. Maybe with certain amount of tracking.
Mental health specialists are wrong all the time. Prisoners lie to get out of prison. No amount of risk to children is acceptable, especially for someone who’s already proven themselves a danger. There is no benefit to anyone besides the predator letting them back out.
Rehabilitation doesn’t have to go as far as letting them back out. There are different kinds of conditions, of ability to communicate with the outside world, to work etc. One might even make special isolated settlements where people live almost as if they were free, but can’t escape.
Why bother with all that when it only benefits child molesters? They should be happy with the fact that our justice system is flawed enough that we can’t just execute them like they deserve. There are valuable members of society those resources could be directed towards.
I don’t think we’ll understand each other.
Advocate for people who deserve it if your goal is to be understood.
It’s far more harmful to allow people, especially people like you, decide who deserves what. So no, all my points stand.
How exactly do you think these things are decided currently if not by people?
They don’t have to be decided at all. That’s why it’s smart to avoid them.
I read those news in a way that she’s now in a low risk facility with plenty of other people around who might casually remove a witness, rather than stuck in isolation in a max security prison where every ‘suicide’ would be met with public outrage.
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Fuck computers. They suck anyway
Then why are you here?
To express my anger about this tariff idiocracy.
You should express it in a way that doesn’t suck then, like shouting from a window. No computers needed there.
Don’t tell me what I should do and I will not tell you where you should go.
I can go wherever, wasn’t me complaining about computers and then using computers for something you don’t need computers for.
But, everything is computer.
Just wait until he has a conversation with the AI freaks in his admin. He changes policy based on the last person he talks to. What an idiot.
In lighter news he’s 78 with congestive heart failure, obvious mental decline, incontinence and obesity
Yea, but he’s also aware of his limited time left. Hence he’s rushing this. Fuck him
Just tell him computer chips are made of McDonalds and diet coke, several problems will solve themselves shortly after.
What a piece of human shit Trump is.
All the dangers they tell us about being over weight and eating like shit, and this mother fucker is still clinging to life like an 80s action hero clings to the underside of a helicopter at the climax of the movie. Come on clogged arteries, do something!
The truth is most human maladies are combination of environment and viruses. The two thing our current administration refuses to do anything about.
Unrelated, welcome to Lemmy.
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The cover image looks like he’s trying to make farting noises with his mouth. Not that that’s much different than anything else that comes out of it.
Where are the Trump-Epstein files?
Can’t have files if you don’t have a computer to store them tips forehead
Good it’ll slow down the atrocious e-waste I hope. Fucking everything doesn’t need wifi and blue tooth and bullshit.
okey dokey den
Americans won‘t own anything and they‘ll be happy.
Tariffs will grow until morale improves
anything to not discuss the epstein files, it seems like the effectiveness of tariffs isnt have as much effect as distraction as it should.
'muricans are already getting their Brazilian coffee tariffed, which should make lower quality distractions work better
Oh boy, another distraction
Still about the Epstein list? Or is it now about the child abuse pastor?
Either way, Trump is a pedophile who is close friends with several other pedophiles. That’s the important part.
get that AI bubble a-poppin
“…likely pushing up…”
“…likely…”
Of course it will! What kind of reporting is this? “…forcing the price up…” Is the phrase they were looking for.
That’s not the article title.
I watched part of this announcement and he said something I normally don’t pick up on
“If they have started to build or have plans to build they don’t have to pay the tariff.”
Sounds like.jobs.
But what I heard was it was a discount for the oligarchy. Why do you only get a discount if you are in the position to at least pretend to be building a factory?
And then since prices are now double, you get to import and sell at an easy profit.
Even once it opens, it’s cheaper to pay taxes on an empty factory than it is to pay tariffs or American workers.
Plus of course the problem that chip manufacturing is not a US traditional industry, so there probably isn’t that much skilled labor.
Ironically they’re probably going to end up having to hire foreign nationals.
Which literally means they have to announce fake plans to build which be continually delayed until at least 2028
Yeah, Apple’s stock went up 5% yesterday because of Tim Cook’s meeting with Trump (where he promised $600 billion investment in US manufacturing), and Apple’s saying they won’t be affected by the new 50% tariffs on India. There are also ghost factories that were built during Trump’s first term.
This will surely bring manufacturing back to the US /s
America in a few years when no one wants their goods anymore and every country outside the US ramped up production since US is the most unreliable partner ever.
shocked pikachu face
Does the US actually have any domestic manufacturing of anything other than basic commodity products?
There is that YouTuber who’s trying to make a pan scrubber something in the US, and he’s finding it really difficult to be able to find manufacturers for the various components.
It’s a brush for scrubbing barbecue grills, priced at an affordable $87.
Release the Epstein files
I agree, but I think we should amend this phrase.
Release the UNREDACTED Epstein files
I want it in audiobook format. Read by Will Wheaton.
Excuse me? LeVar Burton is still alive.
What do you mean “likely pushing up cost of electronics”. That is the literal point of a tariff, to push the prices up and make competing goods more appealing to consumers. The only way it doesnt raise prices is if importers just eat the cost, which they will almost certainly not do and, frankly, shouldn’t do.
Yes, but the media is willing to lie for him and whatever form necessary to normalize all this
Every American needs to be forced to learn the components of a supply and demand diagram.
CPUs are so expensive, I guess I’ll buy a good old US made abacus instead!
that’s probably the one thing I’d buy purposely Chinese.
Now to figure out how to play Doom on it.
Damn, if only we had some bill that would increase manufacturing of chips domestically. It would be foolish to cancel such a bill while also creating a tariff. How will people favor domestic manufacturing without that manufacturing existing? Surely the president would never do that.
In the US the point of tarrifs is to tax the poor to pay for tax breaks for the rich.
Bingo, this is just a way of raising taxes on the poor without “raising taxes”.
The important won’t eat the costs because there’s literally no reason for them to do that.
The tariffs don’t actually upset shipping companies, they literally do not care. They continue to sell the product at exactly the same prices it always cost, once it arrives in a US port, that’s the end of the transaction as far as they are concerned, since the tariffs apply after that, they are irrelevant.
I’ll throw in the “well actually” here so no one gets wrapped around the axle — the true point of tariffs are to boost domestic business at the expense of weakening foreign sales. The scales tipped in favor of domestic businesses should be advantageous and arguably a good strategy in some circumstances …in a vacuum. That’s the “well actually” and it’s worth nothing in 2025 because all advantage is nullified if those domestic businesses lack the skill and resources to produce said goods. The industries currently targeted by tariffs are so huge and complex that domestic businesses stand zero chance (even with tariffs) in place to replicate the technology, supply chain, and workforce that would be able to stand competitively toe-to-toe with the global market.
So it’s entirely a tax on Americans by another name, and for zero gain.
In this case there are no competing domestic products though, or few enough as makes little difference. This is just taxation with extra steps.
Yes, I did mean in the ideal sense, there is a functional purpose for raising the prices of foreign goods IF there is a domestic alternative you wish to boost or expand. But the mechanism for the benefit, IF(big if) there is one, is the increase in price. Tariff (ideally) equals targetted price increases. Saying tariffs might raise prices is like saying stabbing you might wound you. I might have a good reason for wounding you, I might not, but the wounding will happen as a direct consequences of my stabbing you, regardless.
Fuck, I’m going to have to go back to doing math in my head again, aren’t I?
It’s not that bad, you go to Youtube & look up your local Indian mathematician
But do it quick while the country can still afford the internet
Get an abacus before tariffs catch up with them too
I still have a Texas instrument scientific calculator. I have never found a calculator app that I like better.
Put of course I was actually allowed to bring it into an exam which would definitely not possible with a phone.
The best calculator app is the interpreter for the j programming language
Just get a slide rule off ebay
Release the Epstein files.
Every time somebody says this it always makes me think of the scientist from the expanse.
We should definitely release those files it would be really helpful.
“There was a button. I pushed it.” Where’s Holden when you need him?
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A bit of chip history: Taiwan Semiconductor (the current pseudo-monoply in cutting edge processor making) rose as Taiwan the country transitioned from a dictatorship to democracy.
They got state funding, and support for thier business as trade opened up. To simplify, it was like a mix of hyper free-trade capitalism and technocratic command economy/socialism no one on either end of political spectrum would like. And it worked! It’s still working.
The CHIPS act in the US was a baby step in that direction, which (even with Intel’s incredible corporate dysfunction) got me excited.
…And that is basically the opposite of what Trump is proposing.
Basically, take away Intel/Micron/IBM subsidies and tax the shit out of their existing overseas business. And deregulate them instead of directing them.
In other words, drain their capital, and give them free reign to think short term as their manufacturing circles the drain.
To be fair to Trump, most business people do not grasp how indescribably capital/research intense processor manufacturing is. Investment is in the many billions, planning takes decades and is extremely technical, and dependent on economic and research forecasts. They have to be forced to think long term, given truckloads of cash to do it, and not get derailed by quarterly earnings targets and cutting long-term projects on the vine for quick cash.
But still… this is like the worst thing he could have done, IMO.
CHIPS Act. Yet another major Biden win that gets overlooked in favor of shitting on him.
Biden did a lot of great stuff but the USA would rather live in a reality TV show from hell while marching towards authoritarianism apparently. Oh wait, they don’t understand any of that shit because half of them can’t fucking read.
Yes, we all know the most successful economic endeavors are funded by taxpayers. Then leeches come in to steal the profits from the public and useful idiots are all-to-proud to support them.
Just look at how Iceland has the cheapest electricity on the planet; it’s because they built their infrastructure using public money without an incentive to maximize profit.
That’s not what I’m implying.
TSMC would not have thrived if it was purely nationalized, and could have easily collapsed into capitalist hell.
For the processor fab business, specifically, the ideal conditions seem to be some kind of bastardized hybrid. Samsung and China Semi are not far from ‘hybrids’ either, while the corpses of pure extremes (GloFo, Intel, the Soviet’s and modern Russia’s computing efforts, DARPA projects, other pure government efforts and some RISC ones) are littered everywhere.
Intel was heading towards a state-supported hybrid, but apparently not anymore (and is now barreling into capitalist collapse).
The other part of what I’m saying is this does not necessarily apply to, say, the hotel business like Trump is channeling, where short term maneuvering and branding pay off more. Nor engergy generation, which is different too (and probably should be nationalized in such a geothermal-heavy place like Iceland).
In which nation is energy generation not using vast natural resources at huge initial outlay where companies have a boner for monopolising or cartels and exploiting scarcity to drive up prices?
Side note: DARPA’s TCP/IP networky thing seems to have had some future in it!
Conservatives are 100% onboard with a felon rapist pedo skyrocketing our cost of living while destroying our global reputation.
If anyone is still unsure if conservatives are traitors to our nation, now is the time to pinch yourself and wake up.
I wouldn’t call them traitors but they do embody everything else that makes a person horrible! If you’re a republican I seriously hope you get bad allergi s diarrhea and stuck in traffic at the same time, no sun if your car windows get stuck up too.
Nah they are traitors and I hope they all die a traitor’s death.
Traitors to the constitution, traitors to democracy, traitors to free and fair elections, traitors to the founding fathers, traitors to the people and even traitors to the union and the flag. What were you waiting for them to betray before you call them traitors?
Do it, idiot.
Perhaps this could tax the huge data centers being built in the USA, which tend to get huge local tax incentives. But, if I had a data center I was trying to kit out, this would encourage me to setup shop any place other than the USA. (Latency matters, but not equally for everything.)
Oh no, don’t worry. Big tech will get exemptions and write offs.
Only the big tech that donates large sums of money to Tramp (which seems like most of them)
Dude is a great decision machine. Someone should make him preside- oh. 😕
Nah, I think he’s much better suited to being a reality TV star. Oh wait, that’s what he is.
Better suited for a prison cell.
The other 95% of us:
<img alt="" src="https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2F54451401d52c0dd2fe9ee5752857d53c%2Ftenor.gif">
he really is the dumbest motherfucker on the planet
You mean extortionist
No he won’t
It’s simultaneously a grift and a way to impose a flat sales tax all in one package.
Republicans have been creaming their pants for years at the thought of imposing a regressive flat tax on all sales while doing away with income based taxation. This would forever shift the majority of the tax burden to the poor and middle class. Which is why we see Trump cutting taxes on the wealthy with his Big Ugly Bill and imposing a tariff as a way to tax the unwashed masses while simultaneously claiming he isn’t. Hopefully the courts strike down his power grab and force Congress to vote on Tariffs. The weasels will probably give it to them but at least we get to see Republicans go on record as voting for a tax increase.
Trump has announced or will announce tariff exemptions that benefit large companies that have donated to him. Sometime later if he feels he needs more money he will announce a higher random tariff on the exempted goods and shake these corps down for more money/favors. All the while he can claim he is doing our industry a favor.
Never forget Trump is a grifting piece of shit who will always stick it to the little guy.
He’ll back down from this like everything but what a fucking complete moron
I was looking at the stock performance of Semiconductors today and they’re pretty much all green except for Intel. Why? Because they’ve all announced plans to invest in the US (even though they probably won’t ever make good on their commitments). That buys them an exception to the tariffs. So it’s pretty much a 100% tariff on no major player. Intel was down because Tom Cotton and now Trump are attacking their new CEO Lip Bu Tan who has a long successful track record in the industry but has Chinese investments which they think somehow implicates him or creates a national security risk even though TSMC is ahead of Intel in fab capability. Anyway the point is this is just rhetorical grand standing with no serious impact.
I mean the whole point of tariffs is to bring manufacturing to your country, so if they actually did that that would be a major win, but I’m highly doubtful, they’ll probably just wait it out since the US can’t survive by blocking literally every high end chip from being imported.
Looks like books are back on the menu, boys.
How do I download one of those?
Project Gutenberg
Anna’s Archive
Or your favorite lagoon of buccaneers.
Ebooks are awesome.
I’m going to tariff Trump a dollar every time his stupid face pops up in my feeds.
Damn you will become reallyvwealthy dude!
Tariffs are paid by the importer so it will just make your feeds more expensive to import to your device.
I know how it works I just wanted to make a joke.
please forgive
I was joking too. 😅
If anyone hasn’t learned how tariffs work by now, they are choosing to be ignorant.
Well that’s entirely the posters fault.
They’re really fanatic in wanting to post every stupid thing he says or does (which is daily).
As if there isn’t any real news out there.
Could I not just avoid this entirely by buying electronic products from literally anywhere else though?
If you are in the US how do you think that would work? If you are not then it really does not matter since the US is not a major chip producer afaik.
He will remove tarrifs on goods containing microchips in spectacular fashion.
I heard the cartels have a sale this weekend on NVIDIA cards
Anyone remember the punchable faces subreddit?
Yeah, this face would be forever pinned at the top.
Yam Tits just heard the term, hence the sudden tariffs.
Not Nvidia and not Apple. That’s so ridiculous. It will just increase the price of any electronics devices.