CCP subsidizes the absolute shit out of domestic EVs (and many other emerging technologies) which basically forces people to buy them, so it shouldn’t be any surprise they’re selling them like crazy. Meanwhile conservatives in the US are stripping incentives away.
E: holy shit, the Lemmy tankies are real. I literally only spoke negatively of the US and yet I’m immediately blasted with their default replies; whataboutisms and false equivalencies about the US, in a conversation about the European market.
Good! I‘m grateful that the CCP is stepping in where the West is ignorant. Thanks to heavy lobbying by fossil fuels and car industries we would never have affordable cars in Europe without China. Thank you Xi Jinping for saving the climate 🙏
LOOOOOLOLOLOL have you looked at China’s greenhouse gas contributions lately? They don’t give a fuck about the climate, they’re just trying to drive other countries out of the market.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 15:56
nextcollapse
Chinese carbon emissions may have peaked this year and they’ve deployed more renewables than the rest of the world combined.
Oh no, a country acts out of self-interest! A concept that is completely foreign to the West 😱
At least their “self-interest“ has cheaper EVs for the rest of the world as a result. What are the coeffects of the US defending their self-interests? Rise in facism? Another genocide?
At least their “self-interest“ has cheaper EVs for the rest of the world as a result.
It cannot be both. Either:
CCP is subsidizing EVs to “save the climate” and they will stay cheap and subsidized forever because the communist dictator is actually just a totally super nice guy who cares about the global climate.
CCP is subsidizing EVs to dominate the global market, after which prices will go sky high and economies around the world (including yours) will suffer, because they’ve driven out all of the competition.
Which one do you think it is?
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 16:25
nextcollapse
Which sounds like a good idea for everybody. Maybe other countries should do the same thing.
I’m no fan of West Taiwan but they’re doing a lot more to decarbonize than most other major economies.
Like always, it’s a great idea, right up until China jacks up the prices after they’ve driven out all the competition and common people can’t buy them anymore.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 16:36
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Then maybe western companies can finally compete with them despite being ruled by obligate capitalists.
I think you may have glossed over the bit about jacking up prices. By then other countries be decades behind in development, not to mention competing with slave wages. There’s no way. If there was, they wouldn’t be doing it. CCP isn’t doing this for the environment, they expect payback.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 16:40
collapse
So the Chinese tech will still be cheaper.
Gee, maybe sending almost all our manufacturing to another country was a stupid fucking idea
Man I’ve never seen anyone shift quite so many goalposts in such a short time.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 16:47
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What goalpost did I move? You said they’d be built with slave labor which means they’ll still be cheaper, right? And in the meantime we decarbonize huge segments of the global economy.
Don’t be mad just cause western countries wanted to take advantage of slave labor as usual and are getting bitten in the ass because of their greed, or that West Taiwan is doing it better.
No, but you did jump into that conversation. If you were trying to have some other argument, you were arguing with a strawman.
But if a side effect of utterly dominating the west in decarbonizing has the side effect of saving the climate I’m not gonna complain.
There is no “saving the climate”. There is only China dominating the industry and then pricing them out of the hands of common people, because they have no competition.
Another effect is destroying the global economy and further diminishing the wages of workers in the US and around the world. But hey, maybe you like being poor.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 17:28
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Good. I hate the global economy.
And maybe if the western countries had a lick of sense it wouldn’t end up this way. But we got addicted to cheap plastic crap and let the Chinese leapfrog us.
Because if we’d left decarbonization to the west it would never have happened.
Sure, it’s great for everyone, right up until it’s not anymore because they’ve erased the competition and then jacked up the prices to the point that common people can’t afford them, and further driven down workers’ wages in the process.
No. Your argument is for fools. The argument that a country with a population of 345 million produces less carbon dioxide to pollute the planet’s atmosphere with than a country of 1.42 billion people is nonsense and contributes nothing to any conversation at all. The per capita comparison is what matters, but it’s not used by the people that just really want us to believe “China == bad”. Seems like they’re successful at it based on this interaction, sadly.
Oh okay so basically you were wrong but it doesn’t matter. And I’ve been duped into hating a communist dictatorship that censors all public discourse and has exploited slave wages for the last several decades. Got it.
Per capita is the measure that counts, why should Americans be allowed to put multiple times more CO2 into the air than other people?
You are a stinking American exceptionalist.
…you know that comment has zero reference to the Chinese market, right? You realize the CCP can subsidize the construction of vehicles that are exported out of China, right?
Then you worded it poorly, also doesn’t matter if it’s subsidized since as I said, they are hit by tarrifs in the EU so they don’t undercut the market, but since you seem to be unable to show complex thought processes I am done with this conversation.
Ps. nice job with your totally not obvious downvoting with your alt account.
I didn’t word anything poorly, you just read it poorly.
doesn’t matter if it’s subsidized since as I said, they are hit by tarrifs in the EU so they don’t undercut the market
It does matter because tariffs do not even come close to making them even. Seriously, have you considered at all the economics of this? Do you think the Chinese are such fucking savants that they’re able to produce these cars basically for fucking free?
nice job with your totally not obvious downvoting with your alt account.
rainwall@piefed.social
on 28 Aug 15:55
nextcollapse
You should learn about US fossil fuel subsidies. The US alone pumps almost 800 billion/yr into subsidising the industry. Total subsidies worldwide are around 7 trillion/yr.
China tossing 40 Billion/yr into EV/battery subsidies is basically pocket change.
I have no interest in a pissing match over which country is the worst in the world, I am discussing why China is dominating the EV market in Europe.
rainwall@piefed.social
on 28 Aug 16:21
nextcollapse
China spending 1/20 of what the US does to subsidize cars isn't relevant? Sure thing buddy.
The whole point of all of these "china is only dominating in EV sales due to subsidies" comments is to throw shade on China's impressive progress in clean tech. A contrast of their subsidies vs other countries in the same space, motor vehicles, is entirely relevant.
US fossil fuel subsidies are relevant to China dominating the electric vehicle market in Europe? Sure thing buddy.
kurcatovium@piefed.social
on 28 Aug 17:55
collapse
I believe main goal of China investing in green tech is to show middle finger to oil and gas producers. China has virtually none of both oil and gas and so is reliant on import. With mostly green cars and electricity from water, sun and wind, they will have much, much better leverage in global say.
I am discussing why China is dominating the EV market in Europe.
They are not, actually very far from it. VW group is. China market share was very tiny, and is now growing. And Tesla has collapsed. So Byd has surpassed Tesla now.
But the big winners are mostly European, and then Hyundai/KIA, and now Toyota has finally made a good BEV, so they will increase their BEV marketshare too of course.
US made tesla what it is with a lot of state aid and it still failed.
LOL what? What makes you say Tesla “failed”? They’re an incredibly large and profitable company.
You tried to paint it as if only china provides subsidies as some sort of gotcha.
I did no such thing. You are trying to paint what I said that way as some sort of gotcha. Many countries have EV subsidies. None of them compare to that of those from the CCP.
The US, for example, has paid approx. $1B in clean vehicle tax credits for electric and hybrid vehicles originating from around the world. China? $230B.
in 2024 in the west they were falling still. Europe stats are strong for all EVs. Should not be Tesla vs BYD. cleantechnica.com/…/eu-overtakes-the-rest-of-the-… 29% growth in first half of the year, and even higher in July. BEVs+Hybrids is almost 60% of sales. PHEV+BEV 24%, which is much higher than US, though behind China. Total car sales up, while ICE sales down.
European brands doing well. I don’t know the prices of every model, but they have to be providing value to be doing so well.
3dcadmin@lemmy.relayeasy.com
on 29 Aug 05:06
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Most of my car friends won’t touch an EV still here in the UK because the infrastructure isn’t good enough, and those same friends won’t touch a Chinese car either. Only a few have tried Tesla and all have got rid. Currently in the UK if you are a company car person you’d be mad not to get an EV as they are subsidised so much, but equally mad to get one as your only personal car as the charging network is shocking still. When here it is MORE expensive to charge an EV whilst out and about than fuel a petrol car something is seriously wrong
EVs are better cars, and most people are happy with them to get another EV in future. You do need private charging solutions to make it cheaper/convenient, and home solar makes it even better economics. Public charging is something you should plan to use a handful of times per year.
3dcadmin@lemmy.relayeasy.com
on 29 Aug 20:00
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Can’t charge at home here and no public chargers nearby either…
I’m guessing you are in the US as here in the UK more are against EVs than for them because charging costs out and about are higher than ICE cars and Teslas are pretty much hated, and they have by far and away the best charging network. My wife is disabled and believe me having an EV is way harder then because even silly things like the public chargers being as far away from service stations and amenities means it is counter-productive. We will never be able to charge at our current home either - it is banned in the contract
Yes they are, but in this case you are just wrong. I guarantee you I’m not a tankie, but I think it’s pretty clear that USA has absolutely also subsidized electric cars, especially Tesla that has been generously subsidized in multiple ways, also subsidizing their charging network.
On top of that, USA has prevented a lot of outside competition with tariffs.
All in all i am personally sick and tired of Americans always pointing fingers at the Chinese for doing the exact same thing Americans are doing.
Nope you are just wrong and intentionally spreading false equivalencies and making strawman arguments.
Let’s put aside for a moment the fact that I only spoke negatively about the US (the discussion was about Europe), and instead focus on the fact that the US has subsidized electric vehicles from around the world to the tune of $1B in an effort to promote the sales of clean vehicles. China has subsidized to the tune of $230B for domestic vehicles only.
then_three_more@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 18:54
nextcollapse
Also it’s much easier to triple a small number than a big one.
Yes, they’re cheap because the competition is higher end vehicles. BYD’s own high end models are expensive too. They don’t sell the Han here because you could get EQE or i5 for that amount.
Point me to a BYD vehicle that’s cheap and its DIRECT competitor that costs significantly more.
They’re pretty expensive if you consider the fact that the Germans know how to make a car, and the Chinese only know how to make a powertrain and infotainment. And they still cost about as much as the Germans for similar segment vehicles, so really you’re even getting less for your money.
I’m saying that BYD is only cheap compared to its most expensive competitors and those brands aren’t even operating in the same league.
Compare BYD prices to normal euro car prices and BYD is the same or more expensive. Hell even the popular GWM ORA 03 seems hella expensive for such a tiny car. Dacia will sell you an EV so cheap the Chinese aren’t even competing with it. You need to pay 10k more to get a Chinese EV (which admittedly has more power and bigger battery).
CCP subsidizes the absolute shit out of domestic EVs
Not really. Metal is cheap. Lithium and rare earths are cheap. Abundance policies for raw materials aren’t subsidies. Inflation is low and so are interest rates, and so factories are also cheap. Abundance in robotics too. Highly automated factories make low cost cars.
Prices are not absurdly lower than western cars. Maybe $5k less for equivalent to Tesla, and
which basically forces people to buy them
a key program in China is not from CCP. City governments give licence plates to EVs letting them drive every day. There is a trade in incentive, and sales tax break, still, afaik, but all of that is less than what US had, and EVs without subsidies are cheaper than ICE vehicles, as they are starting to be in the west as well.
You are being downvoted because you don’t know what you’re talking about, and “everyone’s a tankie” for not being as uninformed or propagandized as you.
Not really. Metal is cheap. Lithium and rare earths are cheap. Abundance policies for raw materials aren’t subsidies. Inflation is low and so are interest rates, and so factories are also cheap. Abundance in robotics too. Highly automated factories make low cost cars.
And is even cheaper if someone else pay 30% of what you need to spend to build a car. So you can sell the car 30% less than others and still make a profit (maybe).
It is not a mystery that CCP subsidizes a lot of domestic EVs (among other things like solar panel) to become the dominant player in the market.
What would be interesting to see is what will happen after they become the dominant player.
Steel is 1/3 the price as US. Alumnium 1/2. Markets with Futures trading. There’s over 300 car companies in China. They are not all directly subsidized. There is state involved ownership (from factory building) in Steel, but they make money at market prices.
Chinese car factories DO NOT get a special discount on steel. You can’t just keep repeating that without source that is not also just baseless repeating of same lie.
My source is “Il sole 24 ore”, a respected finalcial newspaper in Italy.
But I am not saying the Chinese car factory get a special discount on steel. What I am saying, based on the investigation from the newspaper I cited, is that CCP pay 20 to 30 % of the total cost to build a car.
Now your sources.
simplejack@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 16:27
nextcollapse
Both cars support oppressive dictators, but one is cheaper, supports CarPlay / Android auto, and has actually buttons for things.
kameecoding@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 16:33
nextcollapse
I am not sure you can say BYD supports a dictator per se, more like it exists in a state capitalist country where you exist at the behest of the dictator.
Elon actively pushed and spent money to get trump elected.
The worrying part is that they kinda seem to be implementing good policies for (at least some of) their people.
There’s a lot of disturbing stuff, and probably a whole lot more that we don’t even know about, but social security, education, healthcare - my impression is that they’re going the right way, while the US looks eager to go back to the Dark ages.
Just with STEM degrees, they’re producing almost 5x more graduates than the US, and they’ve surpassed the number of doctorates a long time ago too.
The current world balance won’t hold one more generation.
CatLikeLemming@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 29 Aug 09:31
nextcollapse
I think part of it is that they can actually do anything long-term. Even the most altruistic president in for example the US will get four, at most eight years to do what they’re planning. That’s not enough time to do anything meaningful, all the while they’re dealing with flak from the consequences of the last presidency, and their successor will at best take credit for their achievements, at worst destroy them before they succeed. And that’s assuming the citizens didn’t elect a self-serving megalomaniac.
Winnie the pooh, I’m pretty sure, actually cares about his country. He’s by no means benevolent, but he has the power, resources, and time to build proper infrastructure and reshape the country as he sees fit.
Socially they’re way behind from what I, as an outsider, can tell. Women’s rights at least seem somewhat acceptable with definite room for improvement, but queer rights are even worse. Oh and there’s a literal genocide of Uyghurs so that’s pretty fucking bad.
But the benefits of China’s dictatorship lie in the fact that they can actually think in the long-term and not just until the next election (the politician’s equivalent of the next financial quarter) so they can wield their powers and resources to achieve these goals. The glorious leader must be praised for centuries to come, that can’t happen if the earth becomes uninhabitable due to climate change or the country crumbles in on itself due to failing education and a failing economy.
I’m not American, but my understanding of the system is that the long term plan for the country isn’t meant to be set by the president, but by the legislature - passing laws and creating federal bodies that steer the country.
Instead, there’s absolutely no laws being agreed upon, only presidents that try to impose their view for a while until they’re replaced by whoever’s next who then breaks everything.
The courts are then thrown on to the spotlight and asked by the country to fill up a role who’s not actually theirs, and I don’t even want to go into the issues with appointment of judges.
Not that the system in China is any better, they just happen to have a guy who’s ruthless enough to hold onto power with no opposition, and seems to actually care about his country - but he isn’t gonna last for ever, and there’s zero guarantee that the power struggles after he’s gone won’t tear the country to shreds, or that the next up isn’t a fucked up moron like the orange…
I also with two of you. I also think, personally, that us, humans, are really bad at taking decisions.
We are not seeing the long term vision of things or the whole. Someone having a lot of resources will not be eager to share those with its less fortunate neighbor. In the US, doing so would be called socialism. On the long term it would be the most profitable option for everyone though.
Governments in democracies should totally have those steering bodies composed of people having a long term vision of things. Maybe engineers, scientists, lawyers… But also with objectiveness about matters presented to them.
That vision cans be projected in dictatorships but you are right. The whole thing will crumble when the person at the top will die. Be it a king, president or anyone else at a position of power being nearly venerated.
I would support a mix of both personally. A government represented by its institutions and not people. Taking information from the population itself and processing happening at the top. Information is a weapon by itself too, many insider groups would try to steer the whole or a part of it for themselves and profit from it.
The human component is a variable component here. It seems there is no outcome to that equation as long humans aren’t aware how people are different around them and accept those differences. Plus being able to share when one as a lot and another nothing.
Over 90% of Chinese agree that “democracy is important” and 80% agree that their country is democratic? Was this survey conducted in Taiwan and signed as “China” complying with “one China policy”?
I’ve never met any Chinese believing that their country is democratic nor that democracy is important. Quite the opposite - they usually say that China grew thanks to the lack of democracy (never calling it a dictatorship though)
Even the CCP propaganda doesn’t claim that China is the democracy but instead they show the negative sides of the democracies so that people don’t even think that it may be a good idea if China was democratic
Again, asking for any type of source or statistic over anecdotes. Your “observations” go against reputable polling and statistics of people in China.
Was this survey conducted in Taiwan and signed as “China” complying with “one China policy”?
No… in fact this was a Harvard study that started off with “Given how China is an authoritarian nightmare, how widespread is support for the government?”
Yes… that is not only possible, but likely when n=5…
Please, the original claim was “Chinese people feel coerced”, which is wrong by every metric, and there is no evidence to support this claim.
Although China is certainly not immune from severe social and economic challenges, there is little evidence to support the idea that the CCP is losing legitima- cy in the eyes of its people. In fact, our survey shows that, across a wide variety of metrics, by 2016 the Chi- nese government was more popular than at any point during the previous two decades. On average, Chinese citizens reported that the government’s provision of healthcare, welfare, and other essential public services was far better and more equitable than when the survey began in 2003. Also, in terms of corruption, the drop in satisfaction between 2009 and 2011 was complete- ly erased, and the public appeared generally support- ive of Xi Jinping’s widely-publicized anti-corruption campaign. Even on the issue of the environment, where many citizens expressed dissatisfaction, the majority of respondents expected conditions to improve over the next several years. For each of these issues, China’s poorer, non-coastal residents expressed equal (if not even greater) confidence in the actions of government than more privileged residents. As such, there was no real sign of burgeoning discontent among China’s main demographic groups, casting doubt on the idea that the country was facing a crisis of political legitimacy.
Did you actually read what you quote? It aligns with what I said - Chinese feel mostly satisfied with their government and don’t want the democracy, and don’t feel that their government is democratic. Claiming that Chinese believe that their country is democratic is not what Harvard did in the document that you’ve provided.
Regarding “not only possible but likely”: please do the math. If the share of population believing in X is 90%, the chance that none of the five selected people do X is (1 - 0.9)^5 = 0.001% (i.e., 1 in 100,000), assuming independence across people. That’s what you call likely?
PS. Why is this always the .ml instance 😀
Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 29 Aug 13:58
nextcollapse
and don’t want the democracy
and don’t feel that their government is democratic
I read the Harvard source too, and nowhere were populations asked about democracy in their country. The researchers wanted to look at general satisfaction, and broke that down into surveys about the economy, government corruption, and environment.
Based on the Harvard study alone, neither you nor the Original Commenter (OC) can make claims about perceptions and desires about democracy in China.
However, OC did share the Democracy Perception Index. Looking at the 2024 report alone, Chinese people scored China at >75% democratic, and responded that democracy is >85% important to them. >50% of people believed that China had the right amount of democracy. Based on the data alone, we would believe that the majority of Chinese people 1) want democracy, 2) think China is democratic, and 3) don’t think the amount of democracy needs to change.
We can debate over whether this data is trustworthy. DPI researchers asked surveyees over the internet, which automatically rules out more rural and poorer groups in each society. But this was done for each country, so you might be able to say that the entire survey is moot. Internet surveys are much more susceptible to censorship too, which is why the Harvard study that involved face-to-face interviews is better imo.
Nonetheless, these are the sources that OC presented to support their claim. The majority of Chinese people want democracy, think they live in a democracy, and are satisfied with whatever government they live under, democracy or not.
The original point that OC responded to was whether Chinese people feel coerced by their government. I think the corruption part in the Harvard study and the government accountability part in the DPI reports clearly imply that this is not the case.
What evidence do you have to make the opposite case?
Your statistical math only makes sense if the individuals you spoke to were uniformly sampled from China’s population. I’m willing to bet they weren’tsmf that there may be a sampling bias here. May I ask in what circumstances you heard these n=5 opinions?
If a country is not a divisive hellscape of anger, it must be because they are too afraid to answer surveys honestly? If fear motivated answers then “democracy is impotant” might score low if “there wasn’t a genuine feeling that people are heard in China”.
Look at the massive gap in west between democracy is important and the 40% of people too distracted to understand that their governments don’t serve them. Think hard of what a nightmarish dystopia that is for a second, and then realize that part of that divisiveness is politicians telling you (and you repeating their propaganda as absolute) we need a path to war against China that will make it all better.
You are free to say anything that doesn’t draw the ire of cops, politician, or immigration agents. Otherwise, you might get the shit kicked out of you, thrown in prison on bs charges, or deported/denied entry.
Only those who don’t move dont notice their chains.
myfunnyaccountname@lemmy.zip
on 28 Aug 20:14
nextcollapse
This is what I hate. One is owned by a fuck cunt. The other is owned by china. Neither one are actually good options if you are not buying one because of their beliefs
Other options exist; you don’t have to buy either. Volkswagen Group, Audi, Renault, BMW, Fiat etc all make EVs in Europe. Hyundai & Kia also both make excellent EVs.
Buying a Tesla is a choice these days. Nobody trips and falls into Tesla ownership. And although those cheap Chinese manufacturers look mighty tempting, they’re not the only alternative out there.
declaredreprimand@piefed.social
on 28 Aug 23:00
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Though, you don’t want to buy German either if you want to support “good”. VW, Audi, BMW, all German car mafia.
On a side note, Audi and VW are both under the same owner.
Why are German cars a bad choice? I’d rather buy German than get another Citroen tbh.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 29 Aug 00:08
nextcollapse
It’ll probably be based on some silly WW2-era grudge, which I find stupid.
Or Dieselgate, which while awful, despite what the headlines would have you believe, the VW group was far from the only manufacturer with illegally high diesel emissions, in fact, they were far from being the worst.
There are of course other things, VW has started trying to get into the DLC for cars bullshit that others have, but IMO that pales in comparison to Elon’s bullshit or China literally using slave labour.
E: oops, there’s some transparency issues on that Wikipedia graph. Dark mode users may struggle. Here’s the link: Diesel Emissions Scandal
So does a lot of countries, and I am not sure if a car company has anything to do with decisions of politicians.
CatLikeLemming@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 29 Aug 19:32
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Oh they have a lot to do with the decisions of politicians. But more on topics of economy and how they can profit as much as possible, rather than the supply of arms. Still I swear every second politician here is getting bribes “funds” from the car lobby.
True, but that thing is like a fighter jet compared to Telsa’s void of emptiness. 14 controls on the wheel (and they’re labeled), real controls for drive modes, there are basic climate controls on the center console, you can manually adjust fan orientation, etc.
It’s still overly reliant on touch, but I’d easily take that over a Telsa.
Meh. I would not take either. In fact I actually didn’t. I went to a showroom and got inside their EVs and PHEVs while looking for a car. My immediate reaction after sitting in the driver’s seat of their PHEV was “I don’t want to drive this”. Same thing with the pure EV. I’ll give you the wheel, but those A/C controls next to the “shifter” are touch surfaces instead of actual buttons, and they’re just as annoying and worthless as touchscreen controls. Which is sad because those cars have fantastic stats on paper and very competitive prices. Unfortunately most EVs on the market have fucking stupid interior designs. Very often you have to choose between affordable and well designed. Not very many that are both.
In the end I decided not to buy a new car at all. Still got my 2015 Leon.
MyOpinion@lemmy.today
on 28 Aug 17:32
nextcollapse
Let us have safe bicycle infrastructure do that we can bike to those stores, how about that? And with that, add mixed constructions in the suburbs so that people have small local stores around.
A bike costs a fraction of a car
Bicycle infrastructure building and maintenance costs a fraction of that for cars
Bicycles don’t emit CO2. And for those wise asses saying that the cyclist does, it’s a fraction of a fraction of a car because you’re not lugging 2 tonnes of stell around to transport you and a bottle of milk.
Cycling infrastructure is much more efficient, you can push a shit tonne more people over the same road if you don’t need big ass cars. Yes, even your Mercedes smart car is I ass compared to a bicycle
It creates much much less pollution from tire dust
It’s much safer, bicycles kill only a fraction of the people that cars kill all year round
It’s healthier, people do exercise not because they went to the gym, but all day every day with their bikes
It cuts the noise pollution
It’s cheaper because no taxes, no gas needed, maintenance is a fraction of that of a car.
It’s way less wasteful
It lowers aggression. Though it may or may not exist, I’ve never heard of bicycle road rage
Need more?
Less cars is less parking spaces. Parking spaces get cities barely any taxable income. Instead of these ugly ass concrete wasteland parkitsoaces you can now have restaurants with outside patios which can be taxed. Couple that with the cheaper infrastructure, and that alone should be an obvious reason as to why do this
It’s really not that much slower. For typical short trips, bicycles usually only add some 10-20% of required time to your trip.
For any trip over say, 5-10 kilometers, use good public transportation
For those once in a lifetime trips where you actually need a car because you need to transport something huge, use one of those Evo rent-a-car.
In the Netherlands, a huge amount of people don’t have a car. Not because they can’t (they totally can) but because it’s stupid to have one. You can go everywhere by bike, you can jump with your bike in a train when needed to go further, cars are expensive and bad for everyone, why even have one?
That works in the city but i live in a remote area, and have an hour and a half round trip to work every day because its not economically viable for me to move closer.
Since I doubt Canada/BC will spend the money putting in viable public transit/high speed rail, I just want them to do the bare minimum to allow me to afford to stop burning gas to afford my next meal.
While striving for turning every small town into a walkable city sounds great and amazing on paper, the reality is it won’t happen, so we should push for baby steps in the right direction instead only focusing on the absolute ideal.
Us as well. I am disabled. One hour drive one way to the hospital. Grocery store is half an hour. A train would be awesome but they keep ripping up tracks here so that’s not likely.
stuff like this is why I want to focus on the wide, sweeping generalization of “smaller vehicle is better”
there’s no need for someone in your position to drive a massive crossover for your commute in case you need to pick up 30 lb of groceries after work. you can do that with a hatchback, and pretty much the biggest reason that people don’t choose to do it with a hatchback is that they’re afraid of the bigger heavier vehicles on the road
I still push bicycle infrastructure, but I’m not going to push for everybody to get on bikes. I’m going to push for everybody to stop having such goddamn offensive dangerous vehicles (yes please drive at me at 90 km/h with blinding headlights in a 4,000 lb vehicle with a hood that is above my eye level when I’m in a vehicle with 8 in of ground clearance), and try to get them to realize that no it’s not okay because it came that way, you bought it and you have a responsibility as the owner and driver
And I don’t drive a large crossover, I drive an escape phev, carpool with 2 other people, and use it for more than just ‘30 pounds of groceries’.
I have filled it to the brim and gone camping multiple times this year, use it to transport my recycling to the transfer station every couple months, and at least twice a year do a large grocery shop at the Costco 4 hours away, stuffing it as full as I can manage.
I regularly use it to transport things that wouldn’t fit in a vehicle smaller than this one. Hell, I managed to stuff my stove in the thing, though only just barely.
For my daily commute, since I charge it both at home and at work, I only burn 3-4L of gas, which I would say is quite good for nearly 150km.
The only way for my daily/weekly/monthly/yearly routine to be more eco friendly is if I could afford to trade it in for a full electric vehicle - and with the trips I do on a regular basis (including camping, day trips to the ‘nearby’ lakes, occasional work driving), I would need something with a range above 600km, preferably 700km to be safe in the winter. Otherwise I would have to maintain 2 vehicles - one an electric with a range of at least 200km and the other a small truck or mid sized SUV, and that kind of defeats the entire purpose.
10%? Try 1%… For every 1 of me in this area there are literally 10 lifted king cab shortboxes that never get used for truck purposes on the highway for the same commute as me.
The excuse is always “but I need it if I go offroad or want to tow my boat/camper to the lake!” as if they do that more than once a year.
acockworkorange@mander.xyz
on 31 Aug 15:25
collapse
You’re saying “this solution won’t work for me so nobody should have it”. Try instead “good that it works for you, but I need XYZ so we can tackle the problem on both fronts.”
Go read the rest of the thread, where I agree the ideal is great, but we should be taking realistic steps towards it, instead of an unrealistic, all or nothing attitude that doesn’t take rural Canadians into consideration.
acockworkorange@mander.xyz
on 31 Aug 19:53
collapse
I misunderstood you then. We seem to be of the same opinion.
TwinTitans@lemmy.world
on 29 Aug 03:16
nextcollapse
Let us have safe bicycle infrastructure do that we can bike to those stores, how about that? And with that, add mixed constructions in the suburbs so that people have small local stores around.
Not everyone live in a big city where there is everything you need in terms of grocery and services.
Living in a small city, I can walk to do most of my day by day routine, but I need a car to be able to go where there are services/shops that are not present. And being a small city the public transportation or every solution where you just rent the car/bike/whatever to use a couple of hours are not really present since it is not economically sustainable (too few people spreaded on a relatively too big area)
freebee@sh.itjust.works
on 30 Aug 14:03
nextcollapse
Bicycle road rage does exist, between road bikers and regulars, between fast electric and regulars and in general because plenty assholes do also ride bicycles if the infrastructure is good enough.
I agree with all of this and personally I have replaced as many car trips as I can with a bicycle
however I also recognize that that’s simply too far for most people right now, at least in my area. people love their cars. I would just love it if they weren’t so damn dangerous and offensive, and I wasn’t nearly killed every time I go out and they come near me. that’s literally a 50/50 chance when I bike to the grocery store that somebody nearly kills me (actually in the past 3 weeks that ratio is a little bit safer, but history shows that I’ll have a bunch of things happen in a short time to bring it back to even).
first we need people to recognize that they don’t need massive vehicles. then an extension of that logic is that they don’t need a motor vehicle for a lot of things.
pressanykeynow@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 23:17
collapse
I’m all for fuck the US but don’t you think Canada can make it’s own cars? Being dependent on China’s economy is no better than being dependent on the US or Europe.
While Canada making its own affordable, long range EV’s would be ideal in the long run, we literally have no canadian-owned production facilities or brands that currently can, or do produce low or mid end cars, and Canada seems to have no interest in subsidising those.
Which means, in the short run, I want a vehicle I can afford to buy that doesn’t give me range anxiety, and the only reason I can’t is because Canada literally doubled the price of the cars that currently exist that fit my requirements because the US asked them to.
Hydro Quebec invented BYD’s battery technology, the only reason they licensed it to BYD in the first place is nobody else was going to do anything with it.
tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip
on 28 Aug 19:56
nextcollapse
How tf does someone with a bajillion dollars look like a pile of wet garbage bags at 54? Aren’t they all supposed to be using lotions made from aardvark assholes and incubus foreskins to maintain immortality?
Supervisor194@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 20:12
nextcollapse
Good thing the Tesla board voted to give Elmo all those billions to make him stay, because for a second there was an actual risk that Tesla could survive as a company without Elmo, but now they kept him and made sure they’ll all go down off that cliff.
Tesla vs BYD is overhyped in Europe. Car sales rose 8%. Many European brands did better than this average. Hybrid and EV growth at about 35% in Europe should be story. Fine Tesla is sucking. We get it.
I don’t know about you but I drive over 5-10km regularly. For a short miserable stretch my daily commute was 90 miles. Buying household groceries or anything of size sounds annoying or impossible on bike. And then there’s work tools and whatnot that many professionals keep in vehicle.
sobchak@programming.dev
on 29 Aug 01:10
nextcollapse
I’m completely out of shape and don’t exercise at all, but commuted to work on a bike when my workplace was ~5 miles away. Wasn’t hard at all and only took a little longer than a car. Had a rack on the back and bags to pick up groceries too. If you need carry a lot of heavy tools every day, it obviously wouldn’t be ideal. Even then a bicycle trailer could be used up to something like 100lbs.
The ebike option meme is so laughable. I recently did some research on cargo bikes and the entry models cost as much as a used ICE car with no air con, no rain cover, no heating, no safety. Ebike people are straight up delusional in thinking this is ready to replace cars.
Getting a second hand ice car is objectively the best thing you can do right now for everyone involved unless you ride half a million km a year.
A new cargo is 5000€ and you can find used or discounted ones for less than 3000€.
A used car will cost far more in repairs, insurance and gas, my 2010 car is valued around 3000€ and it costs us around 1000-1500€/year.
I don’t think bikes can replace cars for everyone, but many people could use a bike instead or their car 95% of the time, when we see that so much people use a car for less than 5 km.
Only concern is safety to use a bike in the middle of fast cars, but a proper infrastructure (separated bike lanes) solves it for a fraction of the cost of roads and parking places.
You’re just pulling stats out of your ass here. What you’re doing with your cargo bike in winter? Or summer heat? The cargo bike cult really thinks most of the world is a small town in central Europe when most of the world on avg is mountains in Indonesia.
I swear the sole reason e-bikes are not as big as they should be is the obnoxiously ignorant user base.
“The cargo bike cult really thinks most of the world is a small town in central Europe when most of the world on avg is mountains in Indonesia.” - agreed, they can still go to other countries in Europe and make the same claim. I’d love to see them bike in winter on the Atlantic coast.
uuuh in winter we have things like cloths, even warmed gloves and boots when really cold ? Go in Montreal to figure it out, some are biking there even in winter.
I am pulling stats out of my close area, national stats are : For distances of less than 5 kilometers, cars still account for 60% of commutes. Less than 5 km can you imagine ?
Just put your ass on a bike instead of your fingers, and just try to do things
Ok? I bought my E-Bike 8 years ago for 1500€ and use two roller bags and grab a bit of groceries on my way back from work. It’s a 10km commute one way, so a total of 20km. It takes me a grand total of 26 minutes to get to work. The car usually takes longer due to traffic.
I mean, it’s nice having a PHEV for bigger tasks but we (family of 3) only have one car. We do plenty with our E-Bikes.
Edit: and yes, I use the bike in winter, during rain and snow and I don’t give a shit. I fortunately also don’t live in a total shit hole, which was a choice I actively made.
I’m happy you have this privilidge but reality is majority of the world doesn’t. E-bikes are still not accessible to most and that’ll continue to be the way because the tech is fundamentally flawed without fundamental architecture redesign which will take decades at least.
The tech is flawed? Bicycles are the most efficient mode of transportation bar none. E-Bikes just have a very efficient motor slapped onto them. It’s not the tech. I also don’t believe it’s the climate because I know for a fact that more and more people are commuting by bike in the Philippines. If they can do it in 37 °C heat at 99% humidity and maximum exhaust fumes, then so can you.
That said, infrastructure is the biggest flaw. And that’s something that can be changed within a couple of years, as long as people are willing to do so. The Netherlands were a car-brain shit hole in the 70s, and they made a 180 and live in fucking paradise.
Of course there are many things that absolutely require a car, but groceries isn’t one of those, unless you live in the soulless suburban sprawl that you see so often in the USA.
That’s what clothes are for? Don’t fault the tech if you don’t know how to use it.
NotJohnSmith@feddit.uk
on 29 Aug 04:40
nextcollapse
I tried it and in my country they’re restricted to 15.5mph so largely did nothing for me as my route is out in the countryside.
I moved to an e-moped (like an electric vespa) and it’s been amazing. About £1k to buy, £80 to insure and albeit restricted to 50mile range the equivalent mpg is something like 400mpg.
Naturally doesn’t work if you need to carry kids or large objects around routinely but has been great for me
Buying household groceries or anything of size sounds annoying or impossible on bike.
Not sure why buying groceries on a bike would be annoying or impossible. I do all my grocery shopping by bike, every single day, sometimes twice a day. Just bring a backpack.
As for ‘anything of size’, what would you need to transport? I still have a car, but I use it so little that I only need to buy gas maybe once or twice a year.
I’m genuinely surprised people be ok with BYD on Lemmy. It’s authoritarian spyware, period. There are more options than these two - ww don’t have to choose the lesser evil.
Yes it literally phones back every bit of data. What other evidence do you need?
moonburster@lemmy.world
on 29 Aug 05:20
nextcollapse
Cool. Now provide us with sources. Besides buzzword banger articles I haven’t seen hard proof. At least not more than other brands. Meanwhile Tesla has been doing this for training their self driving and we’ve been fine with it. And so do most cars under the norm of telemetry data.
Do you really think that CCP politely declines this free data? It’s so easy to hide spyware under “anonymous performance telimetry” - didn’t we learn anything from Cabridge Analytica and a billion of other cases? God lord, you people deserve to be spied on.
The evidence is in the fact that it’s a Chinese company. They are required by law to provide the government with all the data they collect (and we know they collect data).
Right but has anybody actually run a packet inspector on the data, or even confirm that it is sending packets back and by what method?
Because everybody “knows” China does this but everybody also “knows” that the Facebook app listens to you. As far as I know no evidence has ever been provided of either claim. The evidence is always ooh well I spoke about yoghurts and then 3 days later I had an advert for a yoghurt, which is somewhat unconvincing as conclusive proof.
As for China - THIS the bog-standard procedure for any tech-related company when an employee has to travel to China. Give them a burner phone and laptop, zero company data on them, zero access to critical company data, after they return, just throw the gear away.
I honestly don’t now what other proof would you need, when we know them spying on regular people has been happening for decades.
That article does not contain any actual evidence of any wrongdoing by Facebook. The reason I don’t think that they are listening is that would be an utterly insane amount of data and 99% of it would be worthless.
The clinch would be someone pointing to some actual data, which is why I keep asking for the packets, and yet years later no one has ever produced them. No cybersecurity expert has ever been able to show me a packet, it’s the simplest thing in the world and, they can’t find them. If you’re into a conspiracy theories explain how that works. They are allegedly listening to you except there was no evidence of any data is going to the Facebook servers. So how are they getting it?
Facebook have a lot of data and people really aren’t as random as they think they are I’m sure they can algorithmically get this data without having to resort to to listening on the microphone.
Why would I give a fucking shit? Every new car is a piece of shit spy ware device that collects and sells your data. Honestly, I’d rather china have my data than a fucking capitalist company or America. At least china won’t do anything to me, our government is more of a threat to the average American than china is.
Hey, man, I’m right there with you. I’m not planning on buying a new car unless I’m 100% confident I can disable or remove all of its networking and spyware services. I’m just stating that it’s stupid that the average American will buy a new car and then say this shit about these cars just because they’re Chinese.
Honestly a Chinese car spying on you probably has less negative impact on your life vs any other brand that does business with American companies, of course assuming you yourself are american and live in America.
Ignorance is bliss I guess? New cars are pretty much computers on wheels that collect data. This is not a secret or anything.
I mean, fuck China and the genocide of the Uighur. It’s terrible. But I’m pretty confident that capitalism killed a whole lot more people throughout history.
New cars are pretty much computers on wheels that collect data
There’s a difference between what telemetry a German car gathers, and what a Chinese car gathers. And where is it sent.
The data from EU companies is anonymised and private. The data from Chinese companies is always available to their government.
I mean, fuck China and the genocide of the Uighur. It’s terrible. But I’m pretty confident that capitalism killed a whole lot more people throughout history
Ah, I guess it’s fine then. Since throughout history more people died because of capitalist policies, then we can support China with a clear conscience!
I do 100% agree with this, though:
Ignorance is bliss I guess?
DistrictSIX@lemmy.zip
on 29 Aug 09:07
nextcollapse
The data from EU companies is anonymised and private. The data from Chinese companies is always available to their government.
Just trust me bro, the EU respects you but the Chinese are out to get you. The same EU that still has a special trade agreement with the genocidal Zionists, and is their biggest trading partner. The same continent that colonized and enslaved much of the rest of the world for centuries.Those are the good guys that you should implicitly trust, no proof needed you paranoid dummy. The red Chinese, they’re the scary ones. Fear them.
Haha, tell that VW who stored positional data with full precision against their own rules (the CCC Chaos computer Club did a good presentation about this).
“though researchers identified Renault as the least problematic.”
Renault was found to be the least problematic and this was one point for me to buy a Renault. Did not consent to data collection as I bought it (used).
I am not consenting in the cars systems and I dont use the cloud service. Installed OVMS and called it a day…
Lemmy is weird. As long as you’re on the dogpile against the current “big bad” of the week, you’re good to go. Fuck Tesla? Then let’s buy Chinese products.
It’s insane, but it’s where we are.
It’s authoritarian spyware, period. There are more options than these two - ww don’t have to choose the lesser evil.
Let’s not forget that they are actively committing genocide against the Uighur. I don’t think they are the “lesser evil”.
What, do you want to bring back the theocratic, slave-owning Lamas? I haven’t been to Tibet to as them, but I really doubt the average person wants what you seem to want for them.
Because Tibet never got the chance to transition to a modern country. FYI China invaded in 1950 Oct 6th - at that time big chunk of the world was still theocratic, autocratic and slave owning.
And during the 1950s, the US trained the former slaves owners, gave them weapons, then airdropped them into Tibet to lead an uprising, they were lynched by their former slaves, but even today is still angling to install the Dali Lama as the head of state.
If China said “yall are on your own”, do you think the US would stop doing what it is currently doing, giving money, weapons (when applicable), and diplomatic support to reactionaries who want to return to those days?
Or do you think they would suffer an immediate economic recession without China funding their development?
Can always count on slurs from people who imagine tankies behind every rock.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz
on 29 Aug 11:26
nextcollapse
Why would someone who doesn’t live in China give a shit about Chinese spyware, especially when the alternative is any of the big US/EU manufacturers who happily hand your information to your own government?
China can’t do shit to yall. I’d include myself in there, but I quite enjoyed my time in China and intend to return, so Chinese spyware could actually be a threat to me.
MangioneDontMiss@lemmy.ca
on 29 Aug 12:19
nextcollapse
Yes? They’ve lifted a billion people out of poverty, produce more green energy than the rest of the world combined, helped fight the Japanese in WWII, I might have my criticisms of the CPC, particularly regarding their lack of support for LGBT+, allowing Shanghai to fuck over zero covid until it had to be abandoned, and some really dumb laws, overall I have to support them because we’ve seen what happens when liberalism triumphs over communism. If you’re lucky, your entire populace is immiserated and you get decades of rightwing dictators robbing the populace blind, see the former USSR, If your not, anyone who isn’t right of Reagan is shot, see Korea and Indonesia.
dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 29 Aug 12:23
nextcollapse
I’m genuinely surprised people be ok with BYD on Lemmy
You are actually genuinely surprised… people on lemmy like something from china? I guess you know not a lot about lemmy lol.
Here’s a hint: A lot of people on lemmy love china, especially the people who created it, and even moreso the people who populated it in its first days. You should look into lemmy a bit more if that’s genuinely surprising to you.
Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
on 29 Aug 13:11
nextcollapse
My commute is about 20 miles a day. Charging level 1 at work is enough unless I go out on the weekend. My Nissan Leaf has been good enough for me. And it is neither Tesla nor Chinese.
NotJohnSmith@feddit.uk
on 29 Aug 04:34
nextcollapse
Damn good car too. My bro rocked one for years, deceptively large inside. Quarterly he’d drive about 1000km in it which I think was mad but made it work, 80km at a time!!!
My only gripe with that car is that it looks really bland. Then again I am no James Dean where I sit with two kids seats with the back full of shopping
I think it’s a good looking car. My problem with it is chademo. It’s unfortunately the betamax of plugs.
MangioneDontMiss@lemmy.ca
on 29 Aug 12:18
nextcollapse
finally some good news.
Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
on 29 Aug 12:36
nextcollapse
I don’t get how a company is losing this much in multiple countries yet is still operating?
Like if they can lose this much and still be operating and investments not tanking, would it follow that they can pay better wages and benefits?
supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz
on 29 Aug 14:16
nextcollapse
The US is corrupt enough at this point the only thing massive corporations have to do to survive is be massive.
Many companies that never even have turned a consistent profit are major players in the US economy.
The idea of valuing actual market competition is a distraction conservatives point to as a cool aesthetic and it has little to do with the economic reality of the US. So long as the right people are in power a dictatorship is totally acceptable to conservatives by and large and the inevitable end result of that as we are seeing are stunning displays of incompetency at the highest levels of power.
Yeah go figure we keep on pumping money into oil companies, when solar and batteries are tariffed. Easy to set why Trump has gone bankrupt so many times.
We even have electric companies actively trying to deter home solar installs with legislation, while other counties are embracing a VPP model.
forkDestroyer@infosec.pub
on 29 Aug 16:20
collapse
Last I checked years ago, they sold their carbon credits for a whole lot of money whenever they earned them.
SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml
on 29 Aug 18:00
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Yeah Tesla only incidentally makes cars. Their accrual business is being a Carbon Credits dealer. Which just goes to show that the whole concept of carbon credits is nonsense. Climate change can’t be solved by market mechanisms
willington@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 29 Aug 19:13
collapse
If the problem we want to solve is how to consolidate wealth and power in a few private hands the fastest, the unregulated free markets is the solution.
just look how he treated Twitter once he bought it. He cares…. just about the wrong shit.
Because he’s unstable and undiagnosed and in denial.
And yet somehow he seems to legitimately think that’s how you do business.
Perhaps it’s because America coddles everything under the capitalist label so he doesn’t have to do business like he has to care about it succeeding or face maybe actions have consequences. And he has too many millions to have to count anything else as a success.just worries about ppl being ‘meanies’
The system makes it so that the rich fail at failing.
Enablism and denial all the way down.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
on 29 Aug 13:15
nextcollapse
nutsack@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 29 Aug 17:23
nextcollapse
i drive a 440. it’s got a giant supercharger sticking out of the hood trying to get me pulled over all the time. i have to wear earplugs while driving to avoid permanent hearing loss. there’s no way to listen to shiteating death metal while driving, because the engine is just too loud. handles turns like shit. i don’t give a fuck
normalexit@lemmy.world
on 29 Aug 17:31
nextcollapse
I bought byd stock. It keeps going down. I will never understand investing
pineapplelover@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 29 Aug 17:47
nextcollapse
And I’ve been holding tesla for years and it goes up even when news is shit. I don’t get it either
IhaveCrabs111@lemmy.world
on 30 Aug 09:07
collapse
It’s just too complex for you. You’ll never understand things like regression charts, Fibonacci patterns and crime
Realistically their sales in Europe are a statistical noise.
beemikeoak@lemmynsfw.com
on 30 Aug 13:59
nextcollapse
My sales to Europe have plunged 0%! Its all due to not being a racist asshole. Also I don’t sale anything, I’m just a non racist person who doesn’t sale anything to Europe at the moment.
I wonder if a large part of this as well is strictly because BYD is priced cheaper. I know for me personally 90 percent of the reason I haven’t invested in electric is because they’re all still luxury priced.
threaded - newest
Hell yeah
Let me guess, the stock did go up?
Today down 1.37%, but up 7.14% overall for the week.
I'm sure the free market knows what's right /s
FSD tomorrow, amirite
Full unsupervised robotaxi while your car makes money for you as you sleep, in 6-months. Pinky promise.
Delivered via Tesla semi
And it’s totally not just a rich man’s playground.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4fbfbabe-c91e-4ed5-9e7f-b764b6527317.jpeg">
Oh no! I think I left the oven on
Elon Musk: “I love ovens”
Jenson Huang; Hold my beer!
Best AI beer the world has ever seen!
CCP subsidizes the absolute shit out of domestic EVs (and many other emerging technologies) which basically forces people to buy them, so it shouldn’t be any surprise they’re selling them like crazy. Meanwhile conservatives in the US are stripping incentives away.
E: holy shit, the Lemmy tankies are real. I literally only spoke negatively of the US and yet I’m immediately blasted with their default replies; whataboutisms and false equivalencies about the US, in a conversation about the European market.
E2: please read up on Predatory Pricing before replying to me.
Good! I‘m grateful that the CCP is stepping in where the West is ignorant. Thanks to heavy lobbying by fossil fuels and car industries we would never have affordable cars in Europe without China. Thank you Xi Jinping for saving the climate 🙏
LOOOOOLOLOLOL have you looked at China’s greenhouse gas contributions lately? They don’t give a fuck about the climate, they’re just trying to drive other countries out of the market.
Chinese carbon emissions may have peaked this year and they’ve deployed more renewables than the rest of the world combined.
That’s because they’re also heavily subsidizing that industry out of self-interest. That’s the “emerging markets” I mentioned above.
Oh no, a country acts out of self-interest! A concept that is completely foreign to the West 😱 At least their “self-interest“ has cheaper EVs for the rest of the world as a result. What are the coeffects of the US defending their self-interests? Rise in facism? Another genocide?
You’re moving the goalposts. You were literally thanking Xi for “saving the climate”.
Once again, I am not having a pissing match about which country is better, I am discussing the success of electric vehicles from China.
Not really? Still saving the climate 🤔
It cannot be both. Either:
CCP is subsidizing EVs to “save the climate” and they will stay cheap and subsidized forever because the communist dictator is actually just a totally super nice guy who cares about the global climate.
CCP is subsidizing EVs to dominate the global market, after which prices will go sky high and economies around the world (including yours) will suffer, because they’ve driven out all of the competition.
Which one do you think it is?
Which sounds like a good idea for everybody. Maybe other countries should do the same thing.
I’m no fan of West Taiwan but they’re doing a lot more to decarbonize than most other major economies.
Like always, it’s a great idea, right up until China jacks up the prices after they’ve driven out all the competition and common people can’t buy them anymore.
Then maybe western companies can finally compete with them despite being ruled by obligate capitalists.
I think you may have glossed over the bit about jacking up prices. By then other countries be decades behind in development, not to mention competing with slave wages. There’s no way. If there was, they wouldn’t be doing it. CCP isn’t doing this for the environment, they expect payback.
So the Chinese tech will still be cheaper.
Gee, maybe sending almost all our manufacturing to another country was a stupid fucking idea
Man I’ve never seen anyone shift quite so many goalposts in such a short time.
What goalpost did I move? You said they’d be built with slave labor which means they’ll still be cheaper, right? And in the meantime we decarbonize huge segments of the global economy.
Don’t be mad just cause western countries wanted to take advantage of slave labor as usual and are getting bitten in the ass because of their greed, or that West Taiwan is doing it better.
This one:
I never wrote that.
But if a side effect of utterly dominating the west in decarbonizing has the side effect of saving the climate I’m not gonna complain.
No, but you did jump into that conversation. If you were trying to have some other argument, you were arguing with a strawman.
There is no “saving the climate”. There is only China dominating the industry and then pricing them out of the hands of common people, because they have no competition.
Another effect is destroying the global economy and further diminishing the wages of workers in the US and around the world. But hey, maybe you like being poor.
Good. I hate the global economy.
And maybe if the western countries had a lick of sense it wouldn’t end up this way. But we got addicted to cheap plastic crap and let the Chinese leapfrog us.
Because if we’d left decarbonization to the west it would never have happened.
I have no response to this.
They are subsiding the deployment of clean energy sources?
Good for them. And good for the world.
Sure, it’s great for everyone, right up until it’s not anymore because they’ve erased the competition and then jacked up the prices to the point that common people can’t afford them, and further driven down workers’ wages in the process.
Is no one else familiar with the concept of Predatory Pricing?
As always - well under what USA is putting into the atmosphere. ourworldindata.org/…/co-emissions-per-capita
That’s per Capita, China has like 30 billion more citizens.
Correct and correct.
So then you agree you were wrong…?
No. Your argument is for fools. The argument that a country with a population of 345 million produces less carbon dioxide to pollute the planet’s atmosphere with than a country of 1.42 billion people is nonsense and contributes nothing to any conversation at all. The per capita comparison is what matters, but it’s not used by the people that just really want us to believe “China == bad”. Seems like they’re successful at it based on this interaction, sadly.
Oh okay so basically you were wrong but it doesn’t matter. And I’ve been duped into hating a communist dictatorship that censors all public discourse and has exploited slave wages for the last several decades. Got it.
Per capita is the measure that counts, why should Americans be allowed to put multiple times more CO2 into the air than other people?
You are a stinking American exceptionalist.
They also manufacture the rest of the world’s shit. So all in all they’re pretty clean for how big they are.
Maybe YOU should give another look at those figures.
Specially the ones relative to the % of new renewables put into production during the last years.
“In Europe”
Sorry, did you have a question?
His point is, da fuck does chinese market have to do with BYD tripling it’s sales in Europe.
Europe has massive tariffs on chinese EVs and they are competitively priced with other brands BYD not selling because they are 30% cheaper in Europe
No one is talking about the Chinese market…
You know I can quote you right?
This is what prompted the first reply to quote the title “in Europe”, hope this helps, have a nice day.
…you know that comment has zero reference to the Chinese market, right? You realize the CCP can subsidize the construction of vehicles that are exported out of China, right?
Then you worded it poorly, also doesn’t matter if it’s subsidized since as I said, they are hit by tarrifs in the EU so they don’t undercut the market, but since you seem to be unable to show complex thought processes I am done with this conversation.
Ps. nice job with your totally not obvious downvoting with your alt account.
I didn’t word anything poorly, you just read it poorly.
It does matter because tariffs do not even come close to making them even. Seriously, have you considered at all the economics of this? Do you think the Chinese are such fucking savants that they’re able to produce these cars basically for fucking free?
Oh, honey…
I am not reading that, like I said I am done.
Then stop replying to me.
You should learn about US fossil fuel subsidies. The US alone pumps almost 800 billion/yr into subsidising the industry. Total subsidies worldwide are around 7 trillion/yr.
China tossing 40 Billion/yr into EV/battery subsidies is basically pocket change.
I have no interest in a pissing match over which country is the worst in the world, I am discussing why China is dominating the EV market in Europe.
China spending 1/20 of what the US does to subsidize cars isn't relevant? Sure thing buddy.
The whole point of all of these "china is only dominating in EV sales due to subsidies" comments is to throw shade on China's impressive progress in clean tech. A contrast of their subsidies vs other countries in the same space, motor vehicles, is entirely relevant.
US fossil fuel subsidies are relevant to China dominating the electric vehicle market in Europe? Sure thing buddy.
I believe main goal of China investing in green tech is to show middle finger to oil and gas producers. China has virtually none of both oil and gas and so is reliant on import. With mostly green cars and electricity from water, sun and wind, they will have much, much better leverage in global say.
They are not, actually very far from it. VW group is. China market share was very tiny, and is now growing. And Tesla has collapsed. So Byd has surpassed Tesla now.
But the big winners are mostly European, and then Hyundai/KIA, and now Toyota has finally made a good BEV, so they will increase their BEV marketshare too of course.
Was gonna say this as well. The Asian brands that have dominated the eu markets still do so. Vw as well, even after their eco blue debacle.
Corporations are not as self-sufficient as they claim to be.
Relevance?
US made tesla what it is with a lot of state aid and it still failed.
China won.
You tried to paint it as if only china provides subsidies as some sort of gotcha.
LOL what? What makes you say Tesla “failed”? They’re an incredibly large and profitable company.
I did no such thing. You are trying to paint what I said that way as some sort of gotcha. Many countries have EV subsidies. None of them compare to that of those from the CCP.
The US, for example, has paid approx. $1B in clean vehicle tax credits for electric and hybrid vehicles originating from around the world. China? $230B.
.
Yeah, I’m not engaging with someone who deals in personal insults and bad faith arguments. Goodbye.
Said a guy making up fake numbers to try to win an online argument.
Just read an article recently that while battery cell cost has fallen and overall capacity have risen, price of EVs continues to rise.
in 2024 in the west they were falling still. Europe stats are strong for all EVs. Should not be Tesla vs BYD. cleantechnica.com/…/eu-overtakes-the-rest-of-the-… 29% growth in first half of the year, and even higher in July. BEVs+Hybrids is almost 60% of sales. PHEV+BEV 24%, which is much higher than US, though behind China. Total car sales up, while ICE sales down.
European brands doing well. I don’t know the prices of every model, but they have to be providing value to be doing so well.
Most of my car friends won’t touch an EV still here in the UK because the infrastructure isn’t good enough, and those same friends won’t touch a Chinese car either. Only a few have tried Tesla and all have got rid. Currently in the UK if you are a company car person you’d be mad not to get an EV as they are subsidised so much, but equally mad to get one as your only personal car as the charging network is shocking still. When here it is MORE expensive to charge an EV whilst out and about than fuel a petrol car something is seriously wrong
EVs are better cars, and most people are happy with them to get another EV in future. You do need private charging solutions to make it cheaper/convenient, and home solar makes it even better economics. Public charging is something you should plan to use a handful of times per year.
Can’t charge at home here and no public chargers nearby either…
I’m guessing you are in the US as here in the UK more are against EVs than for them because charging costs out and about are higher than ICE cars and Teslas are pretty much hated, and they have by far and away the best charging network. My wife is disabled and believe me having an EV is way harder then because even silly things like the public chargers being as far away from service stations and amenities means it is counter-productive. We will never be able to charge at our current home either - it is banned in the contract
Yes they are, but in this case you are just wrong. I guarantee you I’m not a tankie, but I think it’s pretty clear that USA has absolutely also subsidized electric cars, especially Tesla that has been generously subsidized in multiple ways, also subsidizing their charging network.
On top of that, USA has prevented a lot of outside competition with tariffs.
All in all i am personally sick and tired of Americans always pointing fingers at the Chinese for doing the exact same thing Americans are doing.
Nope you are just wrong and intentionally spreading false equivalencies and making strawman arguments.
Let’s put aside for a moment the fact that I only spoke negatively about the US (the discussion was about Europe), and instead focus on the fact that the US has subsidized electric vehicles from around the world to the tune of $1B in an effort to promote the sales of clean vehicles. China has subsidized to the tune of $230B for domestic vehicles only.
Also it’s much easier to triple a small number than a big one.
Doesn’t the EU balance it out with tariffs?
Those cheap BYDs ain’t all that cheap here
Now if EU increased subsidies for domestic EV production, domestic solar panel production, etc… We could really have something great.
No.
Yes they are.
Truth there.
Hmm
Also my friend in the middle east was excited for the BYD Dolphin (I think) for its price and it was… Nearly twice as much here when I looked it up?
BYDs seem cheap because they make budget EVs. Mercedes, Audi, etc, do not.
No one is denying that the tariffs exist. I’m denying that it “balances out”. BYD is still way cheaper than comparable EVs.
Mercedes, Audi, etc. are established several decade old prestigious brands that don’t need rock bottom prices to gain market share.
BYDs don’t “seem” cheap. They are cheap.
Yes, they’re cheap because the competition is higher end vehicles. BYD’s own high end models are expensive too. They don’t sell the Han here because you could get EQE or i5 for that amount.
No they’re not. They’re cheap because they’re subsidized.
But they’re not cheap after the tariffs. Yes, cheaper than German luxury cars, but not cheaper than comparable cars.
Yes. They are. Significantly.
Point me to a BYD vehicle that’s cheap and its DIRECT competitor that costs significantly more.
They’re pretty expensive if you consider the fact that the Germans know how to make a car, and the Chinese only know how to make a powertrain and infotainment. And they still cost about as much as the Germans for similar segment vehicles, so really you’re even getting less for your money.
If you’re comparing them to those brands then you’re obviously just intentionally cherry picking vehicles that are not comparable and you know it.
I’m saying that BYD is only cheap compared to its most expensive competitors and those brands aren’t even operating in the same league.
Compare BYD prices to normal euro car prices and BYD is the same or more expensive. Hell even the popular GWM ORA 03 seems hella expensive for such a tiny car. Dacia will sell you an EV so cheap the Chinese aren’t even competing with it. You need to pay 10k more to get a Chinese EV (which admittedly has more power and bigger battery).
Not really. Metal is cheap. Lithium and rare earths are cheap. Abundance policies for raw materials aren’t subsidies. Inflation is low and so are interest rates, and so factories are also cheap. Abundance in robotics too. Highly automated factories make low cost cars.
Prices are not absurdly lower than western cars. Maybe $5k less for equivalent to Tesla, and
a key program in China is not from CCP. City governments give licence plates to EVs letting them drive every day. There is a trade in incentive, and sales tax break, still, afaik, but all of that is less than what US had, and EVs without subsidies are cheaper than ICE vehicles, as they are starting to be in the west as well.
You are being downvoted because you don’t know what you’re talking about, and “everyone’s a tankie” for not being as uninformed or propagandized as you.
And is even cheaper if someone else pay 30% of what you need to spend to build a car. So you can sell the car 30% less than others and still make a profit (maybe).
It is not a mystery that CCP subsidizes a lot of domestic EVs (among other things like solar panel) to become the dominant player in the market.
What would be interesting to see is what will happen after they become the dominant player.
It is not a mystery how propaganda gets started.
Steel is 1/3 the price as US. Alumnium 1/2. Markets with Futures trading. There’s over 300 car companies in China. They are not all directly subsidized. There is state involved ownership (from factory building) in Steel, but they make money at market prices.
They make money because they can write off 30% of the cost of the car being paid from someone else, in one form or another.
Chinese car factories DO NOT get a special discount on steel. You can’t just keep repeating that without source that is not also just baseless repeating of same lie.
My source is “Il sole 24 ore”, a respected finalcial newspaper in Italy.
But I am not saying the Chinese car factory get a special discount on steel. What I am saying, based on the investigation from the newspaper I cited, is that CCP pay 20 to 30 % of the total cost to build a car.
Now your sources.
Both cars support oppressive dictators, but one is cheaper, supports CarPlay / Android auto, and has actually buttons for things.
I am not sure you can say BYD supports a dictator per se, more like it exists in a state capitalist country where you exist at the behest of the dictator.
Elon actively pushed and spent money to get trump elected.
.
Well played sir, well played.
Pooh bear is actually starting to look less oppressive in comparison these last 7 months tbh
To be fair, the CCP has already done a lot of armed crackdowns and disappearing. They’re in the phase where people are too scared to resist.
Also quite true. They no longer need to use the threat of violence because of the implication
The worrying part is that they kinda seem to be implementing good policies for (at least some of) their people.
There’s a lot of disturbing stuff, and probably a whole lot more that we don’t even know about, but social security, education, healthcare - my impression is that they’re going the right way, while the US looks eager to go back to the Dark ages.
Just with STEM degrees, they’re producing almost 5x more graduates than the US, and they’ve surpassed the number of doctorates a long time ago too.
The current world balance won’t hold one more generation.
I think part of it is that they can actually do anything long-term. Even the most altruistic president in for example the US will get four, at most eight years to do what they’re planning. That’s not enough time to do anything meaningful, all the while they’re dealing with flak from the consequences of the last presidency, and their successor will at best take credit for their achievements, at worst destroy them before they succeed. And that’s assuming the citizens didn’t elect a self-serving megalomaniac.
Winnie the pooh, I’m pretty sure, actually cares about his country. He’s by no means benevolent, but he has the power, resources, and time to build proper infrastructure and reshape the country as he sees fit.
Socially they’re way behind from what I, as an outsider, can tell. Women’s rights at least seem somewhat acceptable with definite room for improvement, but queer rights are even worse. Oh and there’s a literal genocide of Uyghurs so that’s pretty fucking bad.
But the benefits of China’s dictatorship lie in the fact that they can actually think in the long-term and not just until the next election (the politician’s equivalent of the next financial quarter) so they can wield their powers and resources to achieve these goals. The glorious leader must be praised for centuries to come, that can’t happen if the earth becomes uninhabitable due to climate change or the country crumbles in on itself due to failing education and a failing economy.
Now if only that applied to citizen’s rights…
Yeah, I agree with all of your points.
I’m not American, but my understanding of the system is that the long term plan for the country isn’t meant to be set by the president, but by the legislature - passing laws and creating federal bodies that steer the country.
Instead, there’s absolutely no laws being agreed upon, only presidents that try to impose their view for a while until they’re replaced by whoever’s next who then breaks everything.
The courts are then thrown on to the spotlight and asked by the country to fill up a role who’s not actually theirs, and I don’t even want to go into the issues with appointment of judges.
Not that the system in China is any better, they just happen to have a guy who’s ruthless enough to hold onto power with no opposition, and seems to actually care about his country - but he isn’t gonna last for ever, and there’s zero guarantee that the power struggles after he’s gone won’t tear the country to shreds, or that the next up isn’t a fucked up moron like the orange…
I also with two of you. I also think, personally, that us, humans, are really bad at taking decisions.
We are not seeing the long term vision of things or the whole. Someone having a lot of resources will not be eager to share those with its less fortunate neighbor. In the US, doing so would be called socialism. On the long term it would be the most profitable option for everyone though.
Governments in democracies should totally have those steering bodies composed of people having a long term vision of things. Maybe engineers, scientists, lawyers… But also with objectiveness about matters presented to them.
That vision cans be projected in dictatorships but you are right. The whole thing will crumble when the person at the top will die. Be it a king, president or anyone else at a position of power being nearly venerated.
I would support a mix of both personally. A government represented by its institutions and not people. Taking information from the population itself and processing happening at the top. Information is a weapon by itself too, many insider groups would try to steer the whole or a part of it for themselves and profit from it.
The human component is a variable component here. It seems there is no outcome to that equation as long humans aren’t aware how people are different around them and accept those differences. Plus being able to share when one as a lot and another nothing.
The world balance is already broken.
Donald trump destroyed our country.
Source?
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/a7ab4136-c70d-4eac-8b7d-93077f16961a.webp">
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/0c30864d-8443-46ac-adab-46bb8ad1f887.webp">
Over 90% of Chinese agree that “democracy is important” and 80% agree that their country is democratic? Was this survey conducted in Taiwan and signed as “China” complying with “one China policy”?
I’ve never met any Chinese believing that their country is democratic nor that democracy is important. Quite the opposite - they usually say that China grew thanks to the lack of democracy (never calling it a dictatorship though)
Even the CCP propaganda doesn’t claim that China is the democracy but instead they show the negative sides of the democracies so that people don’t even think that it may be a good idea if China was democratic
Again, asking for any type of source or statistic over anecdotes. Your “observations” go against reputable polling and statistics of people in China.
No… in fact this was a Harvard study that started off with “Given how China is an authoritarian nightmare, how widespread is support for the government?”
…harvard.edu/…/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf
Well, I must have been super unlucky then as I have talked about it with like 5 different Chinese met at 5 different circumstances
Yes… that is not only possible, but likely when n=5…
Please, the original claim was “Chinese people feel coerced”, which is wrong by every metric, and there is no evidence to support this claim.
…harvard.edu/…/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf
Let me guess: Harvard is tankie?
Did you actually read what you quote? It aligns with what I said - Chinese feel mostly satisfied with their government and don’t want the democracy, and don’t feel that their government is democratic. Claiming that Chinese believe that their country is democratic is not what Harvard did in the document that you’ve provided.
Regarding “not only possible but likely”: please do the math. If the share of population believing in X is 90%, the chance that none of the five selected people do X is (1 - 0.9)^5 = 0.001% (i.e., 1 in 100,000), assuming independence across people. That’s what you call likely?
PS. Why is this always the .ml instance 😀
I read the Harvard source too, and nowhere were populations asked about democracy in their country. The researchers wanted to look at general satisfaction, and broke that down into surveys about the economy, government corruption, and environment.
Based on the Harvard study alone, neither you nor the Original Commenter (OC) can make claims about perceptions and desires about democracy in China.
However, OC did share the Democracy Perception Index. Looking at the 2024 report alone, Chinese people scored China at >75% democratic, and responded that democracy is >85% important to them. >50% of people believed that China had the right amount of democracy. Based on the data alone, we would believe that the majority of Chinese people 1) want democracy, 2) think China is democratic, and 3) don’t think the amount of democracy needs to change.
We can debate over whether this data is trustworthy. DPI researchers asked surveyees over the internet, which automatically rules out more rural and poorer groups in each society. But this was done for each country, so you might be able to say that the entire survey is moot. Internet surveys are much more susceptible to censorship too, which is why the Harvard study that involved face-to-face interviews is better imo.
Nonetheless, these are the sources that OC presented to support their claim. The majority of Chinese people want democracy, think they live in a democracy, and are satisfied with whatever government they live under, democracy or not.
The original point that OC responded to was whether Chinese people feel coerced by their government. I think the corruption part in the Harvard study and the government accountability part in the DPI reports clearly imply that this is not the case.
What evidence do you have to make the opposite case?
Your statistical math only makes sense if the individuals you spoke to were uniformly sampled from China’s population. I’m willing to bet they weren’tsmf that there may be a sampling bias here. May I ask in what circumstances you heard these n=5 opinions?
Theres a lot of diverse opinions with chinese people, especially travelers.
If a country is not a divisive hellscape of anger, it must be because they are too afraid to answer surveys honestly? If fear motivated answers then “democracy is impotant” might score low if “there wasn’t a genuine feeling that people are heard in China”.
Look at the massive gap in west between democracy is important and the 40% of people too distracted to understand that their governments don’t serve them. Think hard of what a nightmarish dystopia that is for a second, and then realize that part of that divisiveness is politicians telling you (and you repeating their propaganda as absolute) we need a path to war against China that will make it all better.
Trump is definitely headed in China’s direction, but MSNBC is still allowed to exist.
The fact that you can freely criticize and say whatever you want about Elon means that he is not even close to as oppressive.
You are free to say anything that doesn’t draw the ire of cops, politician, or immigration agents. Otherwise, you might get the shit kicked out of you, thrown in prison on bs charges, or deported/denied entry.
Only those who don’t move dont notice their chains.
This is what I hate. One is owned by a fuck cunt. The other is owned by china. Neither one are actually good options if you are not buying one because of their beliefs
Other options exist; you don’t have to buy either. Volkswagen Group, Audi, Renault, BMW, Fiat etc all make EVs in Europe. Hyundai & Kia also both make excellent EVs.
Buying a Tesla is a choice these days. Nobody trips and falls into Tesla ownership. And although those cheap Chinese manufacturers look mighty tempting, they’re not the only alternative out there.
Though, you don’t want to buy German either if you want to support “good”. VW, Audi, BMW, all German car mafia.
On a side note, Audi and VW are both under the same owner.
Why are German cars a bad choice? I’d rather buy German than get another Citroen tbh.
It’ll probably be based on some silly WW2-era grudge, which I find stupid.
Or Dieselgate, which while awful, despite what the headlines would have you believe, the VW group was far from the only manufacturer with illegally high diesel emissions, in fact, they were far from being the worst.
<img alt="" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Nitrogen_oxide_on-road_emissions_by_manufacturer_and_capacity.svg/1280px-Nitrogen_oxide_on-road_emissions_by_manufacturer_and_capacity.svg.png">
There are of course other things, VW has started trying to get into the DLC for cars bullshit that others have, but IMO that pales in comparison to Elon’s bullshit or China literally using slave labour.
E: oops, there’s some transparency issues on that Wikipedia graph. Dark mode users may struggle. Here’s the link: Diesel Emissions Scandal
Well, Germany is still actively supporting a genocide, and their car industry is probably supplying a not-insignificant amount of funds for that.
So does a lot of countries, and I am not sure if a car company has anything to do with decisions of politicians.
Oh they have a lot to do with the decisions of politicians. But more on topics of economy and how they can profit as much as possible, rather than the supply of arms. Still I swear every second politician here is getting
bribes“funds” from the car lobby.BYD cars don’t have very many buttons either. See here. They’re tablets on wheels too. I quite dislike BYD interiors.
True, but that thing is like a fighter jet compared to Telsa’s void of emptiness. 14 controls on the wheel (and they’re labeled), real controls for drive modes, there are basic climate controls on the center console, you can manually adjust fan orientation, etc.
It’s still overly reliant on touch, but I’d easily take that over a Telsa.
Meh. I would not take either. In fact I actually didn’t. I went to a showroom and got inside their EVs and PHEVs while looking for a car. My immediate reaction after sitting in the driver’s seat of their PHEV was “I don’t want to drive this”. Same thing with the pure EV. I’ll give you the wheel, but those A/C controls next to the “shifter” are touch surfaces instead of actual buttons, and they’re just as annoying and worthless as touchscreen controls. Which is sad because those cars have fantastic stats on paper and very competitive prices. Unfortunately most EVs on the market have fucking stupid interior designs. Very often you have to choose between affordable and well designed. Not very many that are both.
In the end I decided not to buy a new car at all. Still got my 2015 Leon.
Not one more penny for this Nazi!
Quick Elon, buy the President of Europe! /s
If he could be would try
Come on Canada, let us have cheap BYD, fuck the US economy.
nah, forget about them
let us have economical cars because we don’t need these massive expensive things just to go 5km to get a load of groceries
Let us have safe bicycle infrastructure do that we can bike to those stores, how about that? And with that, add mixed constructions in the suburbs so that people have small local stores around.
A bike costs a fraction of a car
Bicycle infrastructure building and maintenance costs a fraction of that for cars
Bicycles don’t emit CO2. And for those wise asses saying that the cyclist does, it’s a fraction of a fraction of a car because you’re not lugging 2 tonnes of stell around to transport you and a bottle of milk.
Cycling infrastructure is much more efficient, you can push a shit tonne more people over the same road if you don’t need big ass cars. Yes, even your Mercedes smart car is I ass compared to a bicycle
It creates much much less pollution from tire dust
It’s much safer, bicycles kill only a fraction of the people that cars kill all year round
It’s healthier, people do exercise not because they went to the gym, but all day every day with their bikes
It cuts the noise pollution
It’s cheaper because no taxes, no gas needed, maintenance is a fraction of that of a car.
It’s way less wasteful
It lowers aggression. Though it may or may not exist, I’ve never heard of bicycle road rage
Need more?
Less cars is less parking spaces. Parking spaces get cities barely any taxable income. Instead of these ugly ass concrete wasteland parkitsoaces you can now have restaurants with outside patios which can be taxed. Couple that with the cheaper infrastructure, and that alone should be an obvious reason as to why do this
It’s really not that much slower. For typical short trips, bicycles usually only add some 10-20% of required time to your trip.
For any trip over say, 5-10 kilometers, use good public transportation
For those once in a lifetime trips where you actually need a car because you need to transport something huge, use one of those Evo rent-a-car.
In the Netherlands, a huge amount of people don’t have a car. Not because they can’t (they totally can) but because it’s stupid to have one. You can go everywhere by bike, you can jump with your bike in a train when needed to go further, cars are expensive and bad for everyone, why even have one?
That works in the city but i live in a remote area, and have an hour and a half round trip to work every day because its not economically viable for me to move closer.
Since I doubt Canada/BC will spend the money putting in viable public transit/high speed rail, I just want them to do the bare minimum to allow me to afford to stop burning gas to afford my next meal.
While striving for turning every small town into a walkable city sounds great and amazing on paper, the reality is it won’t happen, so we should push for baby steps in the right direction instead only focusing on the absolute ideal.
Us as well. I am disabled. One hour drive one way to the hospital. Grocery store is half an hour. A train would be awesome but they keep ripping up tracks here so that’s not likely.
stuff like this is why I want to focus on the wide, sweeping generalization of “smaller vehicle is better”
there’s no need for someone in your position to drive a massive crossover for your commute in case you need to pick up 30 lb of groceries after work. you can do that with a hatchback, and pretty much the biggest reason that people don’t choose to do it with a hatchback is that they’re afraid of the bigger heavier vehicles on the road
I still push bicycle infrastructure, but I’m not going to push for everybody to get on bikes. I’m going to push for everybody to stop having such goddamn offensive dangerous vehicles (yes please drive at me at 90 km/h with blinding headlights in a 4,000 lb vehicle with a hood that is above my eye level when I’m in a vehicle with 8 in of ground clearance), and try to get them to realize that no it’s not okay because it came that way, you bought it and you have a responsibility as the owner and driver
And I don’t drive a large crossover, I drive an escape phev, carpool with 2 other people, and use it for more than just ‘30 pounds of groceries’.
I have filled it to the brim and gone camping multiple times this year, use it to transport my recycling to the transfer station every couple months, and at least twice a year do a large grocery shop at the Costco 4 hours away, stuffing it as full as I can manage.
I regularly use it to transport things that wouldn’t fit in a vehicle smaller than this one. Hell, I managed to stuff my stove in the thing, though only just barely.
For my daily commute, since I charge it both at home and at work, I only burn 3-4L of gas, which I would say is quite good for nearly 150km.
The only way for my daily/weekly/monthly/yearly routine to be more eco friendly is if I could afford to trade it in for a full electric vehicle - and with the trips I do on a regular basis (including camping, day trips to the ‘nearby’ lakes, occasional work driving), I would need something with a range above 600km, preferably 700km to be safe in the winter. Otherwise I would have to maintain 2 vehicles - one an electric with a range of at least 200km and the other a small truck or mid sized SUV, and that kind of defeats the entire purpose.
right, like you’re using your vehicle appropriately for its capabilities. people seem to think that they need to use it at 10% of its capabilities
10%? Try 1%… For every 1 of me in this area there are literally 10 lifted king cab shortboxes that never get used for truck purposes on the highway for the same commute as me.
The excuse is always “but I need it if I go offroad or want to tow my boat/camper to the lake!” as if they do that more than once a year.
You’re saying “this solution won’t work for me so nobody should have it”. Try instead “good that it works for you, but I need XYZ so we can tackle the problem on both fronts.”
That’s… Not at all what I am saying.
Go read the rest of the thread, where I agree the ideal is great, but we should be taking realistic steps towards it, instead of an unrealistic, all or nothing attitude that doesn’t take rural Canadians into consideration.
I misunderstood you then. We seem to be of the same opinion.
🤣🤣🤣
Not everyone live in a big city where there is everything you need in terms of grocery and services.
Living in a small city, I can walk to do most of my day by day routine, but I need a car to be able to go where there are services/shops that are not present. And being a small city the public transportation or every solution where you just rent the car/bike/whatever to use a couple of hours are not really present since it is not economically sustainable (too few people spreaded on a relatively too big area)
Bicycle road rage does exist, between road bikers and regulars, between fast electric and regulars and in general because plenty assholes do also ride bicycles if the infrastructure is good enough.
Other than that, all valid points!
I agree with all of this and personally I have replaced as many car trips as I can with a bicycle
however I also recognize that that’s simply too far for most people right now, at least in my area. people love their cars. I would just love it if they weren’t so damn dangerous and offensive, and I wasn’t nearly killed every time I go out and they come near me. that’s literally a 50/50 chance when I bike to the grocery store that somebody nearly kills me (actually in the past 3 weeks that ratio is a little bit safer, but history shows that I’ll have a bunch of things happen in a short time to bring it back to even).
first we need people to recognize that they don’t need massive vehicles. then an extension of that logic is that they don’t need a motor vehicle for a lot of things.
I’m all for fuck the US but don’t you think Canada can make it’s own cars? Being dependent on China’s economy is no better than being dependent on the US or Europe.
While Canada making its own affordable, long range EV’s would be ideal in the long run, we literally have no canadian-owned production facilities or brands that currently can, or do produce low or mid end cars, and Canada seems to have no interest in subsidising those.
Which means, in the short run, I want a vehicle I can afford to buy that doesn’t give me range anxiety, and the only reason I can’t is because Canada literally doubled the price of the cars that currently exist that fit my requirements because the US asked them to.
Hydro Quebec invented BYD’s battery technology, the only reason they licensed it to BYD in the first place is nobody else was going to do anything with it.
How tf does someone with a bajillion dollars look like a pile of wet garbage bags at 54? Aren’t they all supposed to be using lotions made from aardvark assholes and incubus foreskins to maintain immortality?
You laugh, but it’s worse than you might think.
Literal vampire shit lmao.
Well it turns out that ketamine isn’t the elixir of life.
You take that back. You take that back right now!!
Good thing the Tesla board voted to give Elmo all those billions to make him stay, because for a second there was an actual risk that Tesla could survive as a company without Elmo, but now they kept him and made sure they’ll all go down off that cliff.
There is no way I would tickle him!
What if you could use a baseball bat? Maybe with nails in it.
How many nails, and are they rusty and mostly blunt?
Better dunk the whole shebang in raw sewage just to be safe.
Tesla vs BYD is overhyped in Europe. Car sales rose 8%. Many European brands did better than this average. Hybrid and EV growth at about 35% in Europe should be story. Fine Tesla is sucking. We get it.
It’s important to teach everyone that being a racist Nazi is a bad business strategy.
I don’t know about you but I drive over 5-10km regularly. For a short miserable stretch my daily commute was 90 miles. Buying household groceries or anything of size sounds annoying or impossible on bike. And then there’s work tools and whatnot that many professionals keep in vehicle.
I’m completely out of shape and don’t exercise at all, but commuted to work on a bike when my workplace was ~5 miles away. Wasn’t hard at all and only took a little longer than a car. Had a rack on the back and bags to pick up groceries too. If you need carry a lot of heavy tools every day, it obviously wouldn’t be ideal. Even then a bicycle trailer could be used up to something like 100lbs.
The ebike option meme is so laughable. I recently did some research on cargo bikes and the entry models cost as much as a used ICE car with no air con, no rain cover, no heating, no safety. Ebike people are straight up delusional in thinking this is ready to replace cars.
Getting a second hand ice car is objectively the best thing you can do right now for everyone involved unless you ride half a million km a year.
I don’t think it is laughable.
A new cargo is 5000€ and you can find used or discounted ones for less than 3000€.
A used car will cost far more in repairs, insurance and gas, my 2010 car is valued around 3000€ and it costs us around 1000-1500€/year.
I don’t think bikes can replace cars for everyone, but many people could use a bike instead or their car 95% of the time, when we see that so much people use a car for less than 5 km.
Only concern is safety to use a bike in the middle of fast cars, but a proper infrastructure (separated bike lanes) solves it for a fraction of the cost of roads and parking places.
You’re just pulling stats out of your ass here. What you’re doing with your cargo bike in winter? Or summer heat? The cargo bike cult really thinks most of the world is a small town in central Europe when most of the world on avg is mountains in Indonesia.
I swear the sole reason e-bikes are not as big as they should be is the obnoxiously ignorant user base.
“The cargo bike cult really thinks most of the world is a small town in central Europe when most of the world on avg is mountains in Indonesia.” - agreed, they can still go to other countries in Europe and make the same claim. I’d love to see them bike in winter on the Atlantic coast.
uuuh in winter we have things like cloths, even warmed gloves and boots when really cold ? Go in Montreal to figure it out, some are biking there even in winter.
I am pulling stats out of my close area, national stats are : For distances of less than 5 kilometers, cars still account for 60% of commutes. Less than 5 km can you imagine ?
Just put your ass on a bike instead of your fingers, and just try to do things
Lmao look at this guy telling people to ride a bike in winter 😂
Cargo bikes cost 5 grand? That’s outrageous.
Yes it is.
Because it is handcraft compared to car industry (85 millions/year), and not subsidized at all.
Now how much costs a car ? Not only the price, but globally, if you include health impact, infrastructure needs.
Ok? I bought my E-Bike 8 years ago for 1500€ and use two roller bags and grab a bit of groceries on my way back from work. It’s a 10km commute one way, so a total of 20km. It takes me a grand total of 26 minutes to get to work. The car usually takes longer due to traffic.
I mean, it’s nice having a PHEV for bigger tasks but we (family of 3) only have one car. We do plenty with our E-Bikes.
Edit: and yes, I use the bike in winter, during rain and snow and I don’t give a shit. I fortunately also don’t live in a total shit hole, which was a choice I actively made.
I’m happy you have this privilidge but reality is majority of the world doesn’t. E-bikes are still not accessible to most and that’ll continue to be the way because the tech is fundamentally flawed without fundamental architecture redesign which will take decades at least.
The tech is flawed? Bicycles are the most efficient mode of transportation bar none. E-Bikes just have a very efficient motor slapped onto them. It’s not the tech. I also don’t believe it’s the climate because I know for a fact that more and more people are commuting by bike in the Philippines. If they can do it in 37 °C heat at 99% humidity and maximum exhaust fumes, then so can you.
That said, infrastructure is the biggest flaw. And that’s something that can be changed within a couple of years, as long as people are willing to do so. The Netherlands were a car-brain shit hole in the 70s, and they made a 180 and live in fucking paradise.
Of course there are many things that absolutely require a car, but groceries isn’t one of those, unless you live in the soulless suburban sprawl that you see so often in the USA.
Efficient in what regard? it has 0% efficiency when it comes to covering me from rain or the sun. Now what?
That’s what clothes are for? Don’t fault the tech if you don’t know how to use it.
I tried it and in my country they’re restricted to 15.5mph so largely did nothing for me as my route is out in the countryside.
I moved to an e-moped (like an electric vespa) and it’s been amazing. About £1k to buy, £80 to insure and albeit restricted to 50mile range the equivalent mpg is something like 400mpg.
Naturally doesn’t work if you need to carry kids or large objects around routinely but has been great for me
Not sure why buying groceries on a bike would be annoying or impossible. I do all my grocery shopping by bike, every single day, sometimes twice a day. Just bring a backpack.
As for ‘anything of size’, what would you need to transport? I still have a car, but I use it so little that I only need to buy gas maybe once or twice a year.
Any non-cunts in the EV manufacturing space? Or is that a prerequisite?
I have a Chevy Bolt EUV. Maybe it’s still cunty. But I’m pretty sure it better than China spyware or a Nazi.
Hyundai has been pretty good. And I only hear good things about Rivian and Lucid.
I’m genuinely surprised people be ok with BYD on Lemmy. It’s authoritarian spyware, period. There are more options than these two - ww don’t have to choose the lesser evil.
Is it. I know it’s a Chinese company but is there any evidence that there is anything going on?
Yes it literally phones back every bit of data. What other evidence do you need?
Cool. Now provide us with sources. Besides buzzword banger articles I haven’t seen hard proof. At least not more than other brands. Meanwhile Tesla has been doing this for training their self driving and we’ve been fine with it. And so do most cars under the norm of telemetry data.
The actual packets would be nice. Since you obviously have that evidence because you’re saying they “literally” do it would you mind providing it?
Here you go:
Do you really think that CCP politely declines this free data? It’s so easy to hide spyware under “anonymous performance telimetry” - didn’t we learn anything from Cabridge Analytica and a billion of other cases? God lord, you people deserve to be spied on.
…state.gov/gec-special-report-how-the-peoples-rep…
Spending billions on propaganda simply works.
It’s crazy how effective it is too. Especially on places like Tiktok
The evidence is in the fact that it’s a Chinese company. They are required by law to provide the government with all the data they collect (and we know they collect data).
Right but has anybody actually run a packet inspector on the data, or even confirm that it is sending packets back and by what method?
Because everybody “knows” China does this but everybody also “knows” that the Facebook app listens to you. As far as I know no evidence has ever been provided of either claim. The evidence is always ooh well I spoke about yoghurts and then 3 days later I had an advert for a yoghurt, which is somewhat unconvincing as conclusive proof.
The cars have a factory installed SIM-card that allows remote control AND remote access to the integrated phone system (without giving any notion that somebody is listening in on you in your car).
estiponagroup.com/…/shhhhhh-facebook-actually-lis…
As for China - THIS the bog-standard procedure for any tech-related company when an employee has to travel to China. Give them a burner phone and laptop, zero company data on them, zero access to critical company data, after they return, just throw the gear away.
I honestly don’t now what other proof would you need, when we know them spying on regular people has been happening for decades.
That article does not contain any actual evidence of any wrongdoing by Facebook. The reason I don’t think that they are listening is that would be an utterly insane amount of data and 99% of it would be worthless.
The clinch would be someone pointing to some actual data, which is why I keep asking for the packets, and yet years later no one has ever produced them. No cybersecurity expert has ever been able to show me a packet, it’s the simplest thing in the world and, they can’t find them. If you’re into a conspiracy theories explain how that works. They are allegedly listening to you except there was no evidence of any data is going to the Facebook servers. So how are they getting it?
Facebook have a lot of data and people really aren’t as random as they think they are I’m sure they can algorithmically get this data without having to resort to to listening on the microphone.
Why would I give a fucking shit? Every new car is a piece of shit spy ware device that collects and sells your data. Honestly, I’d rather china have my data than a fucking capitalist company or America. At least china won’t do anything to me, our government is more of a threat to the average American than china is.
What a defeatist take.
Or… live in a place or advocate for a place where spyware cars arent a necessity for simply existing…
When something is 100% required for life, someone WILL exploit it
Where is that?
Hey, man, I’m right there with you. I’m not planning on buying a new car unless I’m 100% confident I can disable or remove all of its networking and spyware services. I’m just stating that it’s stupid that the average American will buy a new car and then say this shit about these cars just because they’re Chinese.
Honestly a Chinese car spying on you probably has less negative impact on your life vs any other brand that does business with American companies, of course assuming you yourself are american and live in America.
Fuck me, it has to be sad living in this paranoid state…
Ignorance at it’s best. You’d rather support the state that is committing literal genocide than capitalism.
Sure, capitalism is cancer and sucks, but I don’t think it’s worse than genocide, mate.
Ignorance is bliss I guess? New cars are pretty much computers on wheels that collect data. This is not a secret or anything.
I mean, fuck China and the genocide of the Uighur. It’s terrible. But I’m pretty confident that capitalism killed a whole lot more people throughout history.
There’s a difference between what telemetry a German car gathers, and what a Chinese car gathers. And where is it sent.
The data from EU companies is anonymised and private. The data from Chinese companies is always available to their government.
Ah, I guess it’s fine then. Since throughout history more people died because of capitalist policies, then we can support China with a clear conscience!
I do 100% agree with this, though:
Just trust me bro, the EU respects you but the Chinese are out to get you. The same EU that still has a special trade agreement with the genocidal Zionists, and is their biggest trading partner. The same continent that colonized and enslaved much of the rest of the world for centuries.Those are the good guys that you should implicitly trust, no proof needed you paranoid dummy. The red Chinese, they’re the scary ones. Fear them.
Haha, tell that VW who stored positional data with full precision against their own rules (the CCC Chaos computer Club did a good presentation about this).
Unfortunately they are all bad. Nissan and Renault did pretty badly on privacy (something about recording sexual activity?)
“though researchers identified Renault as the least problematic.”
Renault was found to be the least problematic and this was one point for me to buy a Renault. Did not consent to data collection as I bought it (used). I am not consenting in the cars systems and I dont use the cloud service. Installed OVMS and called it a day…
You are right - I stand corrected.
I pick the cheapest.
Do you carry a cell phone?
Right right, of course that’s true, and it’s also true that many people have requirements that can only be met by a few vehicles on the market.
Lemmy is weird. As long as you’re on the dogpile against the current “big bad” of the week, you’re good to go. Fuck Tesla? Then let’s buy Chinese products.
It’s insane, but it’s where we are.
Let’s not forget that they are actively committing genocide against the Uighur. I don’t think they are the “lesser evil”.
Or still actively occupy Tibet, how conveniently everyone forgot that but yay a slightly cheaper car!
What, do you want to bring back the theocratic, slave-owning Lamas? I haven’t been to Tibet to as them, but I really doubt the average person wants what you seem to want for them.
Because Tibet never got the chance to transition to a modern country. FYI China invaded in 1950 Oct 6th - at that time big chunk of the world was still theocratic, autocratic and slave owning.
And during the 1950s, the US trained the former slaves owners, gave them weapons, then airdropped them into Tibet to lead an uprising, they were lynched by their former slaves, but even today is still angling to install the Dali Lama as the head of state.
If China said “yall are on your own”, do you think the US would stop doing what it is currently doing, giving money, weapons (when applicable), and diplomatic support to reactionaries who want to return to those days?
Or do you think they would suffer an immediate economic recession without China funding their development?
Country: is literally invaded
Some dude online: but US could have invaded too in some parallel universe!
Lmao
They werent invaded, they were liberated. They were invaded by their former masters, with US backing in the 50s.
Lmao go away troll
What level of imperialism-brain do you need to think freeing a people from literal slavery is a bad thing?
.
.
Can always count on slurs from people who imagine tankies behind every rock.
Why would someone who doesn’t live in China give a shit about Chinese spyware, especially when the alternative is any of the big US/EU manufacturers who happily hand your information to your own government?
China can’t do shit to yall. I’d include myself in there, but I quite enjoyed my time in China and intend to return, so Chinese spyware could actually be a threat to me.
enemy of my enemy shit, I suppose.
Even ignoring that horrendously simple minded reason for not caring about privacy…
You’d still support the CCP lol
Yes? They’ve lifted a billion people out of poverty, produce more green energy than the rest of the world combined, helped fight the Japanese in WWII, I might have my criticisms of the CPC, particularly regarding their lack of support for LGBT+, allowing Shanghai to fuck over zero covid until it had to be abandoned, and some really dumb laws, overall I have to support them because we’ve seen what happens when liberalism triumphs over communism. If you’re lucky, your entire populace is immiserated and you get decades of rightwing dictators robbing the populace blind, see the former USSR, If your not, anyone who isn’t right of Reagan is shot, see Korea and Indonesia.
You are actually genuinely surprised… people on lemmy like something from china? I guess you know not a lot about lemmy lol.
Here’s a hint: A lot of people on lemmy love china, especially the people who created it, and even moreso the people who populated it in its first days. You should look into lemmy a bit more if that’s genuinely surprising to you.
when compared with elon’s nazi spyware?
There are more than 2 options here.
We’re in a thread that directly compares Tesla and BYD. Thankfully there are other EV manufacturers.
Lemmy has always been retarded like that.
My commute is about 20 miles a day. Charging level 1 at work is enough unless I go out on the weekend. My Nissan Leaf has been good enough for me. And it is neither Tesla nor Chinese.
Damn good car too. My bro rocked one for years, deceptively large inside. Quarterly he’d drive about 1000km in it which I think was mad but made it work, 80km at a time!!!
My only gripe with that car is that it looks really bland. Then again I am no James Dean where I sit with two kids seats with the back full of shopping
I think it’s a good looking car. My problem with it is chademo. It’s unfortunately the betamax of plugs.
finally some good news.
I don’t get how a company is losing this much in multiple countries yet is still operating?
Like if they can lose this much and still be operating and investments not tanking, would it follow that they can pay better wages and benefits?
The US is corrupt enough at this point the only thing massive corporations have to do to survive is be massive.
Many companies that never even have turned a consistent profit are major players in the US economy.
The idea of valuing actual market competition is a distraction conservatives point to as a cool aesthetic and it has little to do with the economic reality of the US. So long as the right people are in power a dictatorship is totally acceptable to conservatives by and large and the inevitable end result of that as we are seeing are stunning displays of incompetency at the highest levels of power.
in US the patriotism is injected into a brand. Way more money than brains.
Yeah go figure we keep on pumping money into oil companies, when solar and batteries are tariffed. Easy to set why Trump has gone bankrupt so many times.
We even have electric companies actively trying to deter home solar installs with legislation, while other counties are embracing a VPP model.
Last I checked years ago, they sold their carbon credits for a whole lot of money whenever they earned them.
Yeah Tesla only incidentally makes cars. Their accrual business is being a Carbon Credits dealer. Which just goes to show that the whole concept of carbon credits is nonsense. Climate change can’t be solved by market mechanisms
If the problem we want to solve is how to consolidate wealth and power in a few private hands the fastest, the unregulated free markets is the solution.
I don’t think Musk much cares or ever did. The goal was to milk tesla for every last dime.
He didn’t care so much he bawled on trump’s shoulder and got him to buy one.
That was for show. And not to fix the underlying problems. If he cared, he would actually find and fix the problems.
.
just look how he treated Twitter once he bought it. He cares…. just about the wrong shit.
Because he’s unstable and undiagnosed and in denial.
And yet somehow he seems to legitimately think that’s how you do business.
Perhaps it’s because America coddles everything under the capitalist label so he doesn’t have to do business like he has to care about it succeeding or face maybe actions have consequences. And he has too many millions to have to count anything else as a success.just worries about ppl being ‘meanies’
The system makes it so that the rich fail at failing.
Enablism and denial all the way down.
Tesla will be bankrupt in 2 years.
what a coincidence, so will i
i drive a 440. it’s got a giant supercharger sticking out of the hood trying to get me pulled over all the time. i have to wear earplugs while driving to avoid permanent hearing loss. there’s no way to listen to shiteating death metal while driving, because the engine is just too loud. handles turns like shit. i don’t give a fuck
I bought byd stock. It keeps going down. I will never understand investing
And I’ve been holding tesla for years and it goes up even when news is shit. I don’t get it either
It’s just too complex for you. You’ll never understand things like regression charts, Fibonacci patterns and crime
You never buy an individual firm stock unless you have insider knowledge.
Markets can stay irrational longer than you and I can stay solvent.
Chinese indexes/etfs are mostly good for its stability, overall it doesnt grow as much as other markets, but it tends not to drop as much either.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto
<img alt="" src="https://infosec.pub/pictrs/image/6a1cfda4-b520-463c-b83c-3d0f046766aa.jpeg">
Realistically their sales in Europe are a statistical noise.
My sales to Europe have plunged 0%! Its all due to not being a racist asshole. Also I don’t sale anything, I’m just a non racist person who doesn’t sale anything to Europe at the moment.
I wonder if a large part of this as well is strictly because BYD is priced cheaper. I know for me personally 90 percent of the reason I haven’t invested in electric is because they’re all still luxury priced.