No, it is far less environmentally friendly than rc bots made of metal, plastic, and electronics full of nasty little things like batteries blasting, sawing, burning and smashing one another to pieces.
XeroxCool@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 14:59
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Will this further fuck up the inaccurate nature of AI results? While I’m rooting against shitty AI usage, the general population is still trusting it and making results worse will, most likely, make people believe even more wrong stuff.
The article says it’s not poisoning the AI data, only providing valid facts. The scraper still gets content, just not the content it was aiming for.
E:
It is important to us that we don’t generate inaccurate content that contributes to the spread of misinformation on the Internet, so the content we generate is real and related to scientific facts, just not relevant or proprietary to the site being crawled.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 15:21
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and the data for the LLM is now salted with procedural garbage. it’s great!
ObsidianZed@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 20:35
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Until the AI generating the content starts hallucinating.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Mar 01:41
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if you’re dumb enough to trust a large language model because someone told you “iTs Ai!” no amount of facts will be of great utility to you.
Thank you for catching that. Even reading through again, I couldn’t find it while skimming. With the mention of X2 and RSS, I assumed that paragraph would just be more technical description outside my knowledge. Instead, what I did hone in on was
“No real human would go four links deep into a maze of AI-generated nonsense.”
Leading me to be pessimistic.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 15:21
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If you’re dumb enough and care little enough about the truth, I’m not really going to try coming at you with rationality and sense. I’m down to do an accelerationism here. fuck it. burn it down.
remember; these companies all run at a loss. if we can hold them off for a while, they’ll stop getting so much investment.
The problem I see with poisoning the data is the AI’s being trained for law enforcement hallucinating false facts used to arrest and convict people.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 15:42
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that’s the entire point of laws, though, and it was already being used for that.
giving the laws better law stuff will not improve them. the law is malevolent. you cannot fix it by offering to help.
patatahooligan@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 16:02
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Law enforcement AI is a terrible idea and it doesn’t matter whether you feed it “false facts” or not. There’s enough bias in law enforcement that the data is essentially always poisoned.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 21 Mar 16:40
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Law enforcement doesn’t convict anyone, that’s a judge’s job. If a LEO falsely arrests you, you can sue them, and it should be pretty open-and-shut if it’s due to AI hallucination. Enough of that and LEO will stop it.
They aren’t poisoning the data with disinformation.
They’re poisoning it with accurate, but irrelevant information.
For example, if a bot is crawling sites relating to computer programming, or weather, this tool might lure the crawler into pages related to animal facts, or human biology.
I would love to think so. But the word “verified” suggests more.
killeronthecorner@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 18:39
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IP verification is a not uncommon method for commercial crawlers
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 15:25
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I dunno. I don’t find any sympathy with any of these fuckers though. this is not a generally useful technology, it is not something the average person ever needs to see, and honestly, just fuck em. Fuck anyone messing with open source to engorge the garbage dispenser.
Any accessibility service will also see the “hidden links”, and while a blind person with a screen reader will notice if they wonder off into generated pages, it will waste their time too. Especially if they don’t know about such “feature” they’ll be very confused.
Also, I don’t know about you, but I absolutely have a use for crawling X, Google maps, Reddit, YouTube, and getting information from there without interacting with the service myself.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 17:27
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so do we make everything inaccessible to everyone, or just inaccessible to disabled people? we don’t have a way to include them yet. we should work on it, but we are not the ones who fucked accessibility.
yeah. search engine web crawlers are a public service. they are responsible. but we are in a conflict. we must struggle tooth and nail against capital for every nice thing.
He is not wrong. Unless people start to take steps , the dependency of tech will be used to chain most of us. Granted, these chains will be the kindest and gentlest chains seen in a long time.
Social revolution lives on in decentralized services, like this; the true battles will be later though. This year is a mild warm up. I can’t imagine the challenges that await many
IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works
on 21 Mar 15:39
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That’s not really relevant here. This is more of a “genie is out of the bottle and now we have to learn how to deal with it situation”. The idea and technology of bots and AI training already exists. There’s no socioeconomic system that is going to magically make that go away.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 15:41
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I don’t need it to not exist. I need it to stay the fuck out of everyone’s lives unless they work in a lab of some kind.
see, it’s not actually useful. it’s a tomogatchi. do you remember those? no, you fucking don’t.
desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 21 Mar 17:46
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everyone remembers tomogatchi, they were like a digital houseplant.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 17:56
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cool, but where do you get them? you can’t, right? because they were stupid?
desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 21 Mar 18:35
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the used market
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 23:56
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so you’re saying it’s a niche toy you can get if you really want one, but nobody’s pushing that shit on you, and if you never want to talk about one again in your life, you can probably do that?
I would like if large language models were in this position. I don’t think you understand the degree to which our productive capacity and infrastructure are committed to this technology. it’s a lot. basically all the cutting edge computer chips being made are specialist chips for processing large (whatever) models, including the engineering to back it. that means everything else is bumped down a generation or five.
then there’s the amount of electricity being put towards these things-we are in a climate disaster, we do not have green energy, and these things are drawing in the high GW/low TW of energy.
water is also a lot more precarious than a lot of people want to think about. these things are using lots and lots of good drinkable water to cool those specialist chips, then just being throws out, because I assume it’s cheaper than cooling the hot water back down.
if these things didn’t ruin the internet, and were just something you ran on the beefy desktop you otherwise use for games, I wouldn’t mind, but that’s not where we are.
slackassassin@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Mar 02:49
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You can still buy new ones. Take a nap.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Mar 04:39
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somehow I get the impression all this defense of tomogatchis is not about tomogatchis.
I think the point you’re missing is that without the monetary incentive that arises under capitalism, there would be very little drive for anyone to build these wasteful AI systems. It’s difficult to imagine a group of people voluntarily amassing and then using the resources necessary for “AI” absent the desire to cash in on their investment. So you’re correct that an alternative economic system won’t “magically” make LLMs go away. I think it unlikely, however, that such wasteful nonsense would be used on any meaningful scale absent the perverse incentives of capitalism.
It’s difficult to imagine a group of people voluntarily amassing and then using the resources necessary for “AI” absent the desire to cash in on their investment.
How can authority not exist? That’s staggeringly broad
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 17:55
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given what domains we’re hosted on; i think we’ve both had a version of this conversation about a thousand times, and both ended up where we ended up. do you want us to explain hypothetically-at-but-mostly-past each other again? I can do it while un-sober, if you like.
ArmoredThirteen@lemmy.zip
on 21 Mar 18:40
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Not who you responded to but yeah I want to hear a drug fuelled rant I don’t even care what topic
Not the one you responded to but how about the tiredness-fuelled rant that I replied to the other person with.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 23:47
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then don’t ask for that version, dear. I did say ‘by request’, as a way to mix up a conversation I assumed both the person I was speaking to and myself have already had multiple times.
ArmoredThirteen@lemmy.zip
on 22 Mar 16:51
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This is the most boring drug fuelled rant I’ve heard in my life
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Mar 16:53
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you haven’t, but it would be. that’s why I offered to add the drugs.
So here’s a little bit of lemmy lore for you. You’re instance lemmy.ml is considered to be a tankie instance by some users. lemmy.dbzer0.com is an anarchist instance. The user you responded to probably made a generalisation based on this and assumed you were familiar with anarchist/communist/socialist/leftist discourse. From this comment I assume they were wrong.
So on behalf of no-one but myself: Hello! Welcome to Anarchism! The belief that authority should not exist. This belief comes from a lot of different places and wears a lot of different faces. Most short explanations aren’t sufficient and long explanation bore most. If you don’t mind a little learning here is a link: anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionA.html#seca1 and another one crimethinc.com/…/feature-the-secret-is-to-begin-g… or if you like videos: youtu.be/lrTzjaXskUU.
Also a little bit about authority: people use authority to mean many things (this is even bought up in the video I linked above). But as far as anarchists are concerned (in general (no specific statement can be made about a group so vast)) authority is the act of coercing people to follow orders or commit involuntary acts. You’re boss can coerce you to neglect your health by threatening to fire you. Your government can force you to obey gender roles by threatening to jail you. A rich person can make you do whatever demeaning thing they want by dangling money in front of you (for reference see mrbeast) because otherwise your landlord will kick you out. This is authority and it is wrong. Those in authority can make mistakes, become greedy and start to think they have the power to do whatever they want (mostly because they can). This leads to suffering. My meaning of life is to minimise suffering. Anarchy is the belief that no-one should hold power over others. That all leadership should be scrutinised. It rejects blind faith in single people and encourages to think for yourself so no-one can do you wrong. And if you can’t be bothered, it encourages you to find people who genuinely care about you and let them stand up for you.
Thanks, I don’t really care for generalizing instances and didn’t really have a choice when I made my account.
But also your definition is impossibly broad as you well and I’m pretty sure not the general consensus. The video doesn’t define it as such either.
For one thing, by your definition we can have absolutely no meaningful human relationships. I can explain this more later when I have time if you don’t see what I mean
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 23:45
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sorry, assumed from combination of comment+instance.
you can totally have human relationships! you just try to base things on consent. it’s hard to see from here, because everything is so steeped in fuckery, and it’s like trying to imagine slack in a system where a thousand things are keeping the same thing under high tension, but it does tend to work when the forces of oppression briefly collapse. it’s also not a binary. you can look at the way systems function better with more autonomy, and why. this has been studied. I can talk on that at length, but that version of the topic is full of serious doorstoppers and even harder to understand in detail.
‘a paradise born in hell’ by solnit goes into how it tends to emerge during disaster response/recovery, and how centralized authoritarian responses tend to… not help so much, if at all. it’s pretty well written, highly recommend.
My explanation of authority wasn’t meant as a definition but rather a brief summarisation of a complex concept, Andrew does a better job actually explaining it. Like pointing out that Authority is confused with a lot of different concepts like respect or influence. Which I’m starting to suspect is happening here. meaningful human relationships are based on mutual respect. This is not authority as it is voluntary, reciprocated and revoked as soon as the other party steps over the line. This is what I believe is the basis of society and what we need to return to in order to live a truly free life. In modern society in most interactions respect has been replaced with authority. People in positions of power even use them synonymously.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 23:45
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The problem you aren’t recognizing is that, until humans are no longer driven by self preservation, there will always be oppression in any system. They all have and will continue to breakdown. It’s easy to blame capitalism but even socialist systems eventually cave under the weight of greed and power. We are the problem mon frère.
melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Mar 16:43
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there will always be complications, sure. PERFECT may not be achievable.
but apparently we can’t have GOOD, we can’t have DECENT, we can’t have OKAY until the last owner is strangled with the entrails of the last enforcer. not for more than the about ten seconds it takes them to notice.
It’s what I’ve been saying about technology for the past decade or two … we’ve hit an upper limit to our technological development … that limit is on individual human greed where small groups of people or massively wealthy people hinder or delay any further development because they’re always trying to find ways to make money off it, prevent others from making money off it, monopolize an area or section of society … capitalism is literally our world’s bottleneck and it’s being choked off by an oddly shaped gold bar at this point.
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 16:42
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Especially since the solution I cooked up for my site works just fine and took a lot less work. This is simply to identify the incoming requests from these damn bots – which is not difficult, since they ignore all directives and sanity and try to slam your site with like 200+ requests per second, that makes 'em easy to spot – and simply IP ban them. This is considerably simpler, and doesn’t require an entire nuclear plant powered AI to combat the opposition’s nuclear plant powered AI.
In fact, anybody who doesn’t exhibit a sane crawl rate gets blocked from my site automatically. For a while, most of them were coming from Russian IP address zones for some reason. These days Amazon is the worst offender, I guess their Rufus AI or whatever the fuck it is tries to pester other retail sites to “learn” about products rather than sticking to its own domain.
Fuck 'em. Route those motherfuckers right to /dev/null.
Flagstaff@programming.dev
on 21 Mar 17:31
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Geez, that’s a lot of requests!
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 17:36
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It sure is. Needless to say, I noticed it happening.
Buelldozer@lemmy.today
on 21 Mar 17:40
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and try to slam your site with like 200+ requests per second
Your solution would do nothing to stop the crawlers that are operating 10ish rps. There’s ones out there operating at a mere 2rps but when multiple companies are doing it at the same time 24x7x365 it adds up.
Some incredibly talented people have been battling this since last year and your solution has been tried multiple times. It’s not effective in all instances and can require a LOT of manual intervention and SysAdmin time.
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 17:52
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It’s worked alright for me. Your mileage may vary.
If someone is scraping my site at a low crawl rate I honestly don’t care so long as it doesn’t impact my performance for everyone else. If I hosted anything that was not just public knowledge or copy regurgitated verbatim from the bumf provided by the vendors of the brands I sell, I might oppose to it ideologically. But I don’t. So I don’t.
If parallel crawling from multiple organizations legitimately becomes a concern for us I will have to get more creative. But thus far it hasn’t, and honestly just wholesale blocking Amazon from our shit instantly solved 90% of the problem.
confusedbytheBasics@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 23:50
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Yep. After you ban all the easy to spot ones you’re still left with far too many hard to ID bots. At least if your site is popular and large.
Cloudflare offers that too, but you can’t always tell
desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 21 Mar 17:45
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the only problem with that solution being applied to generic websites is schools and institutions can have many legitimate users from one IP address and many sites don’t want a chance to accidentally block one.
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 17:53
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This is fair in those applications. I only run an ecommerce web site, though, so that doesn’t come into play.
So we’re burning fossil fuels and destroying the planet so bots can try to deceive one another on the Internet in pursuit of our personal data. I feel like dystopian cyberpunk predictions didn’t fully understand how fucking stupid we are…
Flagstaff@programming.dev
on 21 Mar 19:59
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They probably knew, but the truth is just boring and it’s funner to dramatize things, haha.
MNByChoice@midwest.social
on 21 Mar 16:20
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Be great if these reinforced facts.
Earth us an imperfect oblate spheroid.
Humans landed on moon.
Taiwan is an independent nation.
Edit: incorporated better information
milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee
on 21 Mar 22:21
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*imperfect oblate spheroid
MNByChoice@midwest.social
on 21 Mar 23:37
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Thank you. I have updated my post.
perviouslyiner@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 16:48
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DNA Lounge has something similar - I think they even mentioned infinite JavaScript loops, and images that expand like zip-bombs.
AnthropomorphicCat@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 16:51
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So the world is now wasting energy and resources to generate AI content in order to combat AI crawlers, by making them waste more energy and resources. Great! 👍
brucethemoose@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 18:29
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The energy cost of inference is overstated. Small models, or “sparse” models like Deepseek are not expensive to run. Training is a one-time cost that still pales in comparison to, like, making aluminum.
Doubly so once inference goes more on-device.
Basically, only Altman and his tech bro acolytes want AI to be cost prohibitive so he can have a monopoly. Also, he’s full of shit, and everyone in the industry knows it.
AI as it’s implemented has plenty of enshittification, but the energy cost is kinda a red herring.
peoplebeproblems@midwest.social
on 21 Mar 17:17
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Not exactly how I expected the AI wars to go, but I guess since we’re in a cyberpunk world, we take what we get
rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 17:22
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Next step is an AI that detects AI labyrinth.
It gets trained on labyrinths generated by another AI.
So you have an AI generating labyrinths to train an AI to detect labyrinths which are generated by another AI so that your original AI crawler doesn’t get lost.
It’s gonna be AI all the way down.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 18:13
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All the while each AI costs more power than a million human beings to run, and the world burns down around us.
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 19:41
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The same way they justify cutting benefits for the disabled to balance budgets instead of putting taxes on the rich or just not giving them bailouts, they will justify cutting power to you before a data centre that’s 10 corporate AIs all fighting each other, unless we as a people stand up and actually demand change.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 19:46
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Vote Blue No Matter Who
Any Democrat is Better than Any Republican
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 22:48
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In my country blue is conservatives… But I agree with the sentiment! It worked for California, it can work for your whole country, let the Dems stop fearing they’ll lose elections, give them comfortable margins and then massively support progressives who can bring in the good stuff, they won’t have a chance if the party core thinks the very future of elections is on the line, but if they think they’ll likely win anyway, you might just be able to push through a progressive candidate and end the Neoliberal decay.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 22:50
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It’s so rare to get positive reinforcement like this, these days. Thank you.
To be fair, California is kind of dysfunctional and constantly trips over its own regulations when trying to get anything built. For instance, needing excessive environmental impact review for things like trains that will obviously help the environment, or limiting ferry boats crossing the bay to protect the environment even though it likely results in more people driving instead.
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 23 Mar 16:32
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You need a strong and agile state. This dysfunction often stems from complexities introduced by corporate interests during the legislative process.
TronBronson@lemmy.world
on 22 Mar 14:25
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Plenty of Democrats are voting to put trump nominees in office, plenty are voting on partisan spending bills. The CR vote should tip you off that any democrat is not better than any republican… half of them are complicit too. 10 Senate Dems just financed this authoritarian takeover.
Scheumer rubberstamped autocracy by not filibustering the CR. I think anyone who protects the constitution and their constituents is better than someone who doesn’t. Not that any repuclicans fit the bill, but its not like we can just trust any old democrat. Look at Gavin Newsome sliding to the right to maintain power. That the kinda dems we want?
Autocracy is 100% guaranteed in the USA since November, Schumer never had any choice on the matter. Whether or not Congress went into recess Trump would be acting like a God King. The only people who can do anything about it? Congress, who in this hypothetical wouldn’t be able to because of the recess and in our actual reality aren’t able to because more than half of them are traitors.
We’ll never know what happened because the senate couldn’t even filibuster it for a day to try to force a negotiation or a shutdown. There was no reason for 10 senators to vote yes on the CR.
I don’t like that 10 dnc senators voted yes, but I absolutely place 100% of the blame on the GOP.
Reminder that failure to pass a resolution by the 14th, within 4 days of its introduction on the 10th, would automatically trigger government shutdown and recess of congress, giving Trump even more authority to discontinue payments to government programs and offices. It was made law on the 15th of March. Republicans left no room for negotiation.
Ah yes so just let them shut down the government for the most vunerable americans, and let the part that throws people in jail run free. This is good because instead of everyone hurting, only the people republicans want to hurt are hurting. The rest of the population is free to ignore fascism and go about their normal day.
This brilliant strategy brought to you by people who need to color code morality!
I’m talking about the Continuing resolution. Here have a read and let me know if you want to discuss it. I’m not sure what you’re talking about, but I am certain you have not read the CR, and I’m suspicious you do not understand how government opperates.
It didn’t cut funding. It expanding funding leading up to next years funding bill. It also expanded executive powers needlessly. Vaguely worded clauses that will be used for more executive overreach. So ya. Shutting down the government for a week or two to force a bipartisan CR, and showing the american people what it looks like when they cut half the government for tax cuts this summer.
Ah sorry I only saw the 6 Billion dollar increase in spending on the defense side.
But ya saving 13 billion by what slashing IRS, and critical enforcement that would have also been shut down? Like thats the point. They’re cutting critical services and allowing more executive overreach. We’re just gonna stand by all year and watch them strip us of all our resources and leave us with crippling debt. This is foreshadowing for the next round of cuts and taxbreaks.
DancingBear@midwest.social
on 22 Mar 16:32
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Blue No Matter Who is the opposite of what happened in 2016 and 2024. In 2024, Millions of people who voted for Biden did not vote for Harris because she wasn’t “pure enough”.
The Republicans voted for Trump in the same numbers as the previous election, very very slightly more, and that’s how they won. Republicans will vote red no matter who. Conservatives are united while Progressives infight.
DancingBear@midwest.social
on 22 Mar 17:16
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You sound like the DNC blaming voters for their shitty candidates. Do you get all your news from The View?
Those candidates support every stance of progressives en masse, they have every intention to fix everything wrong in this country, but bad actors like you have them branded as shitty corporate goons so we haven’t given them more than 50 senators in any congress in 10 years, we haven’t given them 60 since 1979, we gave 12 of the last 16 congresses to Republicans, and we get this constant news feed of how horrible and awful things continue to get more and more and people still don’t connect the dots.
DancingBear@midwest.social
on 22 Mar 17:23
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I bet there are corporations that want regulatory stability over political football. If someone could figure out how to tap that with Super PACs they could capture funding. Probably easier to do in local elections where on party or another has failed to put up a candidate for a judge.
I see one party races in Texas for justice of the peace and for judges. The Dems have no viable candidates in some jurisdictions because no one wants a democrat or to be labeled as one. But maybe a centrist could brand themselves as the anti democratic alternative to republicans.
In Texas 80% of our water usage is corporate. But when the lakes are low during a drought they tell homeowners to reduce water the grass. Nobody tells the corporations to throw away less water.
AI will be allowed to use as much energy as it wants. It will even remind people to turn off the lights in a room not being occupied while wasting energy to monitor everyone’s power usage.
I haven’t heard of someone refer to the great filter of intelligent life for a while. Good post.
brucethemoose@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 18:26
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LLMs tend to be really bad at detecting AI generated content. I can’t imagine specialized models are much better. For the crawler, it’s also exponentially more expensive and more human work, and must be replicated for every crawler since they’re so freaking secretive.
Will it actually allow ordinary users to browse normally, though? Their other stuff breaks in minority browsers. Have they tested this well enough so that it won’t? (I’d bet not.)
finitebanjo@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 18:12
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Cloudflare kind of real for this. I love it.
It makes perfect sense for them as a business, infinite automated traffic equals infinite costs and lower server stability, but at the same time how often do giant tech companies do things that make sense these days?
ozymandias117@lemmy.world
on 21 Mar 20:41
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Kind of seems like they simply installed this dude’s tarpit from a few months ago
There is also the corpo verified id route. In order to avoid the onslaught of AI bots and all that comes with them you’ll need to sacrifice freedom, anonymity, and privacy like a good little peasant to prove you aren’t a bot… and so will everyone else. You’ll likely be forced to deal with whatever AI bots are forced upon you while within the walls but better an enemy you know I guess?
fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com
on 21 Mar 18:45
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And this, ladies and gentleman, is how you actually make profits on AI.
_cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Mar 18:57
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Now this is a AI trap worth using. Don’t waste your money and resources hosting something yourself, let Cloudflare do it for you if you don’t want AI scraping your shit.
baltakatei@sopuli.xyz
on 21 Mar 19:11
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Relevant excerpt from part 11 of Anathem (2008) by Neal Stephenson:
Artificial Inanity
Note: Reticulum=Internet, syndev=computer, crap~=spam
“Early in the Reticulum—thousands of years ago—it became almost useless because it was cluttered with faulty, obsolete, or downright misleading information,” Sammann said.
“Crap, you once called it,” I reminded him.
“Yes—a technical term. So crap filtering became important. Businesses were built around it. Some of those businesses came up with a clever plan to make more money: they poisoned the well. They began to put crap on the Reticulum deliberately, forcing people to use their products to filter that crap back out. They created syndevs whose sole purpose was to spew crap into the Reticulum. But it had to be good crap.”
“What is good crap?” Arsibalt asked in a politely incredulous tone.
“Well, bad crap would be an unformatted document consisting of random letters. Good crap would be a beautifully typeset, well-written document that contained a hundred correct, verifiable sentences and one that was subtly false. It’s a lot harder to generate good crap. At first they had to hire humans to churn it out. They mostly did it by taking legitimate documents and inserting errors—swapping one name for another, say. But it didn’t really take off until the military got interested.”
“As a tactic for planting misinformation in the enemy’s reticules, you mean,” Osa said. “This I know about. You are referring to the Artificial Inanity programs of the mid–First Millennium A.R.”
“Exactly!” Sammann said. “Artificial Inanity systems of enormous sophistication and power were built for exactly the purpose Fraa Osa has mentioned. In no time at all, the praxis leaked to the commercial sector and spread to the Rampant Orphan Botnet Ecologies. Never mind. The point is that there was a sort of Dark Age on the Reticulum that lasted until my Ita forerunners were able to bring matters in hand.”
“So, are Artificial Inanity systems still active in the Rampant Orphan Botnet Ecologies?” asked Arsibalt, utterly fascinated.
“The ROBE evolved into something totally different early in the Second Millennium,” Sammann said dismissively.
“What did it evolve into?” Jesry asked.
“No one is sure,” Sammann said. “We only get hints when it finds ways to physically instantiate itself, which, fortunately, does not happen that often. But we digress. The functionality of Artificial Inanity still exists. You might say that those Ita who brought the Ret out of the Dark Age could only defeat it by co-opting it. So, to make a long story short, for every legitimate document floating around on the Reticulum, there are hundreds or thousands of bogus versions—bogons, as we call them.”
“The only way to preserve the integrity of the defenses is to subject them to unceasing assault,” Osa said, and any idiot could guess he was quoting some old Vale aphorism.
“Yes,” Sammann said, “and it works so well that, most of the time, the users of the Reticulum don’t know it’s there. Just as you are not aware of the millions of germs trying and failing to attack your body every moment of every day. However, the recent events, and the stresses posed by the Antiswarm, appear to have introduced the low-level bug that I spoke of.”
“So the practical consequence for us,” Lio said, “is that—?”
“Our cells on the ground may be having difficulty distinguishing between legitimate messages and bogons. And some of the messages that flash up on our screens may be bogons as well.”
Because it’s not AI, it’s LLMs, and all LLMs do is guess what word most likely comes next in a sentence. That’s why they are terrible at answering questions and do things like suggest adding glue to the cheese on your pizza because somewhere in the training data some idiot said that.
The training data for LLMs come from the internet, and the internet is full of idiots.
Lifter@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Mar 10:55
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That’s what I do too with less accuracy and knowledge. I don’t get why I have to hate this. Feels like a bunch of cavemen telling me to hate fire because it might burn the food
Because we have better methods that are easier, cheaper, and less damaging to the environment. They are solving nothing and wasting a fuckton of resources to do so.
It’s like telling cavemen they don’t need fire because you can mount an expedition to the nearest valcanoe to cook food without the need for fuel then bring it back to them.
The best case scenario is the LLM tells you information that is already available on the internet, but 50% of the time it just makes shit up.
Did the LLMs tell you that? It’s not hard to look up on your own:
Data centers, in particular, are responsible for an estimated 2% of electricity use in the U.S., consuming up to 50 times more energy than an average commercial building, and that number is only trending up as increasingly popular large language models (LLMs) become connected to data centers and eat up huge amounts of data. Based on current datacenter investment trends,LLMs could emit the equivalent of five billion U.S. cross-country flights in one year.
Capitalist pigs are paying media to generate AI hatred to help them convince you people to get behind laws that all limit info sharing under the guise of IP and copyright
From the article it seems like they don’t generate a new labyrinth for every single time: Rather than creating this content on-demand (which could impact performance), we implemented a pre-generation pipeline that sanitizes the content to prevent any XSS vulnerabilities, and stores it in R2 for faster retrieval."
Generating content with AI to throw off crawlers. I dread to think of the resources we’re wasting on this utter insanity now, but hey who the fuck cares as long as the line keeps going up for these leeches.
Onsotumenh@discuss.tchncs.de
on 21 Mar 20:36
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Why do I have the feeling that I will end up in that nightmare with my privacy focused and ad-free Browser setup. I already end up in captcha hell too often because of it.
It certainly sounds like they generate the fake content once and serve it from cache every time: “Rather than creating this content on-demand (which could impact performance), we implemented a pre-generation pipeline that sanitizes the content to prevent any XSS vulnerabilities, and stores it in R2 for faster retrieval.”
In terms of Lemmy instances, if your instance is behind cloudflare and you turn on AI protection, federation breaks. So their tools are not very helpful for fighting the AI scraping.
I’m not sure what can be done at the free tier. There is a switch to turn on AI not blocking, and it breaks federation.
You can’t whitelist domains because federation could come from and domain. Maybe you could somehow whitelist /inbox for the ActivityPub communication, but I’m not sure how to do that in Cloudflare.
Lol I work in healthcare and Cloudflare regularly blocks incoming electronic orders because the clinical notes “resemble” SQL injection. Nurses type all sorts of random stuff in their notes so there’s no managing that. Drives me insane!
Surprised at the level of negativity here. Having had my sites repeatedly DDOSed offline by Claudebot and others scraping the same damned thing over and over again, thousands of times a second, I welcome any measures to help.
AWittyUsername@lemmy.world
on 22 Mar 11:06
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I think the negativity is around the unfortunate fact that solutions like this shouldn’t be necessary.
Modify your Nginx (or whatever web server you use) config to rate limit requests to dynamic pages, and cache them. For Nginx, you’d use either fastcgi_cache or proxy_cache depending on how the site is configured. Even if the pages change a lot, a cache with a short TTL (say 1 minute) can still help reduce load quite a bit while not letting them get too outdated.
Static content (and cached content) shouldn’t cause issues even if requested thousands of times per second. Following best practices like pre-compressing content using gzip, Brotli, and zstd helps a lot, too :)
Of course, this advice is just for “unintentional” DDoS attacks, not intentionally malicious ones. Those are often much larger and need different protection - often some protection on the network or load balancer before it even hits the server.
We truly are getting dumber as a species. We’re facing climate change but running some of the most power hungry processers in the world to spit out cooking recipes and homework answers for millions of people. All to better collect their data to sell products to them that will distract them from the climate disaster our corporations have caused. It’s really fun to watch if it wasn’t so sad.
surph_ninja@lemmy.world
on 22 Mar 14:40
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I’m imagining a sci-fi spin on this where AI generators are used to keep AI crawlers in a loop, and they accidentally end up creating some unique AI culture or relationship in the process.
Well that was a swing and a miss, back to the dugout with you dumbass.
umbraroze@lemmy.world
on 22 Mar 17:08
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I have no idea why the makers of LLM crawlers think it’s a good idea to ignore bot rules. The rules are there for a reason and the reasons are often more complex than “well, we just don’t want you to do that”. They’re usually more like “why would you even do that?”
Ultimately you have to trust what the site owners say. The reason why, say, your favourite search engine returns the relevant Wikipedia pages and not bazillion random old page revisions from ages ago is that Wikipedia said “please crawl the most recent versions using canonical page names, and do not follow the links to the technical pages (including history)”. Again: Why would anyone index those?
That’s what they are saying though. These shouldn’t be thought of as “rules”, they are suggestions near universally designed to point you to the most relevant content. Ignoring them isn’t “stealing something not meant to be captured”, it’s wasting time and resources of your own infra on something very likely to be useless to you.
Because it takes work to obey the rules, and you get less data for it. The theoretical competitor could get more ignoring those and get some vague advantage for it.
I’d not be surprised if the crawlers they used were bare-basic utilities set up to just grab everything without worrying about rules and the like.
They want everything, does it exist, but it’s not in their dataset? Then they want it.
They want their ai to answer any question you could possibly ask it. Filtering out what is and isn’t useful doesn’t achieve that
Greyfoxsolid@lemmy.world
on 22 Mar 22:43
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People complain about AI possibly being unreliable, then actively root for things that are designed to make them unreliable.
tacobellhop@midwest.social
on 22 Mar 22:58
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Maybe it will learn discretion and what sarcasm are instead of being a front loaded google search of 90% ads and 10% forums. It has no way of knowing if what it’s copy pasting is full of shit.
I find this amusing, had a conversation with an older relative who asked about AI because I am “the computer guy” he knows. Explained basically how I understand LLMs to operate, that they are pattern matching to guess what the next token should be based on a statistical probability. Explained that they sometimes hallucinate, or go of on wild tangents due to this and that they can be really good at aping and regurgitating things but there is no understanding simply respinning fragments to try to generate a response that pleases the asker.
He observed, “oh we are creating computer religions, just without the practical aspects of having to operate in the mundane world that have to exist before a real religion can get started. That’s good, religions that have become untethered from day to day practical life have never caused problems for anyone.”
Which I found scarily insightful.
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
on 22 Mar 23:23
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Oh good.
now I can add digital jihad by hallucinating AI to the list of my existential terrors.
Thank your relative for me.
SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de
on 23 Mar 05:13
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Not if we go butlerian jihad on them first
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
on 23 Mar 12:41
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lol, I was gonna say a reverse butlerian jihad but i didnt think many people would get the reference :p
cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Mar 23:12
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i mean this is just designed to thwart ai bots that refuse to follow robots.txt rules of people who specifically blocked them.
DasSkelett@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Mar 23:16
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This will only make models of bad actors who don’t follow the rules worse quality.
You want to sell a good quality AI model trained on real content instead of other misleading AI output? Just follow the rules ;)
This only makes AI models unreliable if they ignore “don’t scrape my site” requests. If they respect the requests of the sites they’re profiting from using the data from, then there’s no issue.
People want AI models to not be unreliable, but they also want them to operate with integrity in the first place, and not profit from people’s work who explicitly opt-out their work from training.
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
on 22 Mar 23:26
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I’m a person.
I dont want AI, period.
We cant even handle humans going psycho. Last thing I want is an AI losing its shit due from being overworked producing goblin tentacle porn and going full skynet judgement day.
Got enough on my plate dealing with a semi-sentient olestra stain trying to recreate the third reich, as is.
We cant even handle humans going psycho. Last thing I want is an AI losing its shit due from being overworked producing goblin tentacle porn and going full skynet judgement day.
That is simply not how “AI” models today are structured, and that is entirely a fabrication based on science fiction related media.
The series of matrix multiplication problems that an LLM is, and runs the tokens from a query through does not have the capability to be overworked, to know if it’s been used before (outside of its context window, which itself is just previous stored tokens added to the math problem), to change itself, or to arbitrarily access any system resources.
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
on 23 Mar 12:42
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Jokes on them. I’m going to use AI to estimate the value of content, and now I’ll get the kind of content I want, though fake, that they will have to generate.
missandry351@lemmings.world
on 23 Mar 08:44
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This is getting ridiculous. Can someone please ban AI? Or at least regulate it somehow?
Slaxis@discuss.tchncs.de
on 23 Mar 13:09
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The problem is, how? I can set it up on my own computer using open source models and some of my own code. It’s really rough to regulate that.
gap_betweenus@lemmy.world
on 23 Mar 13:42
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Once a technology or even an idea is there, you can’t really make it go away - ai is here to stay. The generative LLM are just a small part.
As for everything, it has good things, and bad things. We need to be careful and use it in a proper way, and the same thing applies to the ones creating this technology
threaded - newest
That’s just BattleBots with a different name.
You’re not wrong.
Ok, I now need a screensaver that I can tie to a cloudflare instance that visualizes the generated “maze” and a bot’s attempts to get out.
You probably just should let an AI generate that.
They should program the actions and reactions of each system to actual battle bots and then televise the event for our entertainment.
Then get bored when it devolves into a wedge meta.
Somehow one of them still invents Tombstone.
Putting a chopped down lawnmower blade in front of a thing, and having it spin at harddrive speeds is honestly kinda terrifying…
No, it is far less environmentally friendly than rc bots made of metal, plastic, and electronics full of nasty little things like batteries blasting, sawing, burning and smashing one another to pieces.
Will this further fuck up the inaccurate nature of AI results? While I’m rooting against shitty AI usage, the general population is still trusting it and making results worse will, most likely, make people believe even more wrong stuff.
The article says it’s not poisoning the AI data, only providing valid facts. The scraper still gets content, just not the content it was aiming for.
E:
and the data for the LLM is now salted with procedural garbage. it’s great!
Until the AI generating the content starts hallucinating.
if you’re dumb enough to trust a large language model because someone told you “iTs Ai!” no amount of facts will be of great utility to you.
That take would be more digest able if I wasn’t stuck on the same planet as those people.
im saying they want to be lied to. it would be disrespectful to offer them the truth.
Thank you for catching that. Even reading through again, I couldn’t find it while skimming. With the mention of X2 and RSS, I assumed that paragraph would just be more technical description outside my knowledge. Instead, what I did hone in on was
“No real human would go four links deep into a maze of AI-generated nonsense.”
Leading me to be pessimistic.
If you’re dumb enough and care little enough about the truth, I’m not really going to try coming at you with rationality and sense. I’m down to do an accelerationism here. fuck it. burn it down.
remember; these companies all run at a loss. if we can hold them off for a while, they’ll stop getting so much investment.
The problem I see with poisoning the data is the AI’s being trained for law enforcement hallucinating false facts used to arrest and convict people.
that’s the entire point of laws, though, and it was already being used for that.
giving the laws better law stuff will not improve them. the law is malevolent. you cannot fix it by offering to help.
Law enforcement AI is a terrible idea and it doesn’t matter whether you feed it “false facts” or not. There’s enough bias in law enforcement that the data is essentially always poisoned.
Law enforcement doesn’t convict anyone, that’s a judge’s job. If a LEO falsely arrests you, you can sue them, and it should be pretty open-and-shut if it’s due to AI hallucination. Enough of that and LEO will stop it.
More likely they will remove your ability to sue them if you are talking about the usa and many other countries
They aren’t poisoning the data with disinformation.
They’re poisoning it with accurate, but irrelevant information.
For example, if a bot is crawling sites relating to computer programming, or weather, this tool might lure the crawler into pages related to animal facts, or human biology.
What is a “verified crawler” though? What I worry about is, is it only big companies like Google that are allowed to have them now?
I assume a crawler which adheres to robots.txt
I would love to think so. But the word “verified” suggests more.
IP verification is a not uncommon method for commercial crawlers
I dunno. I don’t find any sympathy with any of these fuckers though. this is not a generally useful technology, it is not something the average person ever needs to see, and honestly, just fuck em. Fuck anyone messing with open source to engorge the garbage dispenser.
Any accessibility service will also see the “hidden links”, and while a blind person with a screen reader will notice if they wonder off into generated pages, it will waste their time too. Especially if they don’t know about such “feature” they’ll be very confused.
Also, I don’t know about you, but I absolutely have a use for crawling X, Google maps, Reddit, YouTube, and getting information from there without interacting with the service myself.
yeah. it’s pretty fucked. hopefully it’s temporary.
so do we make everything inaccessible to everyone, or just inaccessible to disabled people? we don’t have a way to include them yet. we should work on it, but we are not the ones who fucked accessibility.
yeah. search engine web crawlers are a public service. they are responsible. but we are in a conflict. we must struggle tooth and nail against capital for every nice thing.
.
Cloudflare isn’t the best at blocking things. As long as your crawler isn’t horribly misconfigured you shouldn’t have much issues.
this is some fucking stupid situation, we somewhat got a faster internet and these bots messing each other are hogging the bandwidth.
nothing can be improved while capitalism or authority exist; all improvement will be seized and used to oppress.
Lost on Lemmy?
no, responding to a comment about exactly that thing.
He is not wrong. Unless people start to take steps , the dependency of tech will be used to chain most of us. Granted, these chains will be the kindest and gentlest chains seen in a long time.
Social revolution lives on in decentralized services, like this; the true battles will be later though. This year is a mild warm up. I can’t imagine the challenges that await many
That’s not really relevant here. This is more of a “genie is out of the bottle and now we have to learn how to deal with it situation”. The idea and technology of bots and AI training already exists. There’s no socioeconomic system that is going to magically make that go away.
I don’t need it to not exist. I need it to stay the fuck out of everyone’s lives unless they work in a lab of some kind.
see, it’s not actually useful. it’s a tomogatchi. do you remember those? no, you fucking don’t.
everyone remembers tomogatchi, they were like a digital houseplant.
cool, but where do you get them? you can’t, right? because they were stupid?
the used market
so you’re saying it’s a niche toy you can get if you really want one, but nobody’s pushing that shit on you, and if you never want to talk about one again in your life, you can probably do that?
I would like if large language models were in this position. I don’t think you understand the degree to which our productive capacity and infrastructure are committed to this technology. it’s a lot. basically all the cutting edge computer chips being made are specialist chips for processing large (whatever) models, including the engineering to back it. that means everything else is bumped down a generation or five.
then there’s the amount of electricity being put towards these things-we are in a climate disaster, we do not have green energy, and these things are drawing in the high GW/low TW of energy.
water is also a lot more precarious than a lot of people want to think about. these things are using lots and lots of good drinkable water to cool those specialist chips, then just being throws out, because I assume it’s cheaper than cooling the hot water back down.
if these things didn’t ruin the internet, and were just something you ran on the beefy desktop you otherwise use for games, I wouldn’t mind, but that’s not where we are.
You can still buy new ones. Take a nap.
somehow I get the impression all this defense of tomogatchis is not about tomogatchis.
It is called regulation in sane parts of the world.
Sadly, those areas seem to be diminishing rapidly until more people enter the Find Out phase.
I think the point you’re missing is that without the monetary incentive that arises under capitalism, there would be very little drive for anyone to build these wasteful AI systems. It’s difficult to imagine a group of people voluntarily amassing and then using the resources necessary for “AI” absent the desire to cash in on their investment. So you’re correct that an alternative economic system won’t “magically” make LLMs go away. I think it unlikely, however, that such wasteful nonsense would be used on any meaningful scale absent the perverse incentives of capitalism.
No imagination necessary.
I mean Dmitry Pospelov was arguing for AI control in the Soviet Union clear back in the 70s.
Just another way the state capitalist soviet union was closer to capitalism than socialism.
How can authority not exist? That’s staggeringly broad
given what domains we’re hosted on; i think we’ve both had a version of this conversation about a thousand times, and both ended up where we ended up. do you want us to explain hypothetically-at-but-mostly-past each other again? I can do it while un-sober, if you like.
Not who you responded to but yeah I want to hear a drug fuelled rant I don’t even care what topic
Not the one you responded to but how about the tiredness-fuelled rant that I replied to the other person with.
then don’t ask for that version, dear. I did say ‘by request’, as a way to mix up a conversation I assumed both the person I was speaking to and myself have already had multiple times.
This is the most boring drug fuelled rant I’ve heard in my life
you haven’t, but it would be. that’s why I offered to add the drugs.
I… Don’t think I’ve heard anyone claim authority shouldn’t exist.
So here’s a little bit of lemmy lore for you. You’re instance lemmy.ml is considered to be a tankie instance by some users. lemmy.dbzer0.com is an anarchist instance. The user you responded to probably made a generalisation based on this and assumed you were familiar with anarchist/communist/socialist/leftist discourse. From this comment I assume they were wrong.
So on behalf of no-one but myself: Hello! Welcome to Anarchism! The belief that authority should not exist. This belief comes from a lot of different places and wears a lot of different faces. Most short explanations aren’t sufficient and long explanation bore most. If you don’t mind a little learning here is a link: anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionA.html#seca1 and another one crimethinc.com/…/feature-the-secret-is-to-begin-g… or if you like videos: youtu.be/lrTzjaXskUU.
Also a little bit about authority: people use authority to mean many things (this is even bought up in the video I linked above). But as far as anarchists are concerned (in general (no specific statement can be made about a group so vast)) authority is the act of coercing people to follow orders or commit involuntary acts. You’re boss can coerce you to neglect your health by threatening to fire you. Your government can force you to obey gender roles by threatening to jail you. A rich person can make you do whatever demeaning thing they want by dangling money in front of you (for reference see mrbeast) because otherwise your landlord will kick you out. This is authority and it is wrong. Those in authority can make mistakes, become greedy and start to think they have the power to do whatever they want (mostly because they can). This leads to suffering. My meaning of life is to minimise suffering. Anarchy is the belief that no-one should hold power over others. That all leadership should be scrutinised. It rejects blind faith in single people and encourages to think for yourself so no-one can do you wrong. And if you can’t be bothered, it encourages you to find people who genuinely care about you and let them stand up for you.
Thanks, I don’t really care for generalizing instances and didn’t really have a choice when I made my account.
But also your definition is impossibly broad as you well and I’m pretty sure not the general consensus. The video doesn’t define it as such either.
For one thing, by your definition we can have absolutely no meaningful human relationships. I can explain this more later when I have time if you don’t see what I mean
sorry, assumed from combination of comment+instance.
you can totally have human relationships! you just try to base things on consent. it’s hard to see from here, because everything is so steeped in fuckery, and it’s like trying to imagine slack in a system where a thousand things are keeping the same thing under high tension, but it does tend to work when the forces of oppression briefly collapse. it’s also not a binary. you can look at the way systems function better with more autonomy, and why. this has been studied. I can talk on that at length, but that version of the topic is full of serious doorstoppers and even harder to understand in detail.
‘a paradise born in hell’ by solnit goes into how it tends to emerge during disaster response/recovery, and how centralized authoritarian responses tend to… not help so much, if at all. it’s pretty well written, highly recommend.
My explanation of authority wasn’t meant as a definition but rather a brief summarisation of a complex concept, Andrew does a better job actually explaining it. Like pointing out that Authority is confused with a lot of different concepts like respect or influence. Which I’m starting to suspect is happening here. meaningful human relationships are based on mutual respect. This is not authority as it is voluntary, reciprocated and revoked as soon as the other party steps over the line. This is what I believe is the basis of society and what we need to return to in order to live a truly free life. In modern society in most interactions respect has been replaced with authority. People in positions of power even use them synonymously.
glad to offer you a new experience.
The problem you aren’t recognizing is that, until humans are no longer driven by self preservation, there will always be oppression in any system. They all have and will continue to breakdown. It’s easy to blame capitalism but even socialist systems eventually cave under the weight of greed and power. We are the problem mon frère.
there will always be complications, sure. PERFECT may not be achievable.
but apparently we can’t have GOOD, we can’t have DECENT, we can’t have OKAY until the last owner is strangled with the entrails of the last enforcer. not for more than the about ten seconds it takes them to notice.
It’s what I’ve been saying about technology for the past decade or two … we’ve hit an upper limit to our technological development … that limit is on individual human greed where small groups of people or massively wealthy people hinder or delay any further development because they’re always trying to find ways to make money off it, prevent others from making money off it, monopolize an area or section of society … capitalism is literally our world’s bottleneck and it’s being choked off by an oddly shaped gold bar at this point.
Especially since the solution I cooked up for my site works just fine and took a lot less work. This is simply to identify the incoming requests from these damn bots – which is not difficult, since they ignore all directives and sanity and try to slam your site with like 200+ requests per second, that makes 'em easy to spot – and simply IP ban them. This is considerably simpler, and doesn’t require an entire nuclear plant powered AI to combat the opposition’s nuclear plant powered AI.
In fact, anybody who doesn’t exhibit a sane crawl rate gets blocked from my site automatically. For a while, most of them were coming from Russian IP address zones for some reason. These days Amazon is the worst offender, I guess their Rufus AI or whatever the fuck it is tries to pester other retail sites to “learn” about products rather than sticking to its own domain.
Fuck 'em. Route those motherfuckers right to /dev/null.
Geez, that’s a lot of requests!
It sure is. Needless to say, I noticed it happening.
Your solution would do nothing to stop the crawlers that are operating 10ish rps. There’s ones out there operating at a mere 2rps but when multiple companies are doing it at the same time 24x7x365 it adds up.
Some incredibly talented people have been battling this since last year and your solution has been tried multiple times. It’s not effective in all instances and can require a LOT of manual intervention and SysAdmin time.
thelibre.news/foss-infrastructure-is-under-attack…
It’s worked alright for me. Your mileage may vary.
If someone is scraping my site at a low crawl rate I honestly don’t care so long as it doesn’t impact my performance for everyone else. If I hosted anything that was not just public knowledge or copy regurgitated verbatim from the bumf provided by the vendors of the brands I sell, I might oppose to it ideologically. But I don’t. So I don’t.
If parallel crawling from multiple organizations legitimately becomes a concern for us I will have to get more creative. But thus far it hasn’t, and honestly just wholesale blocking Amazon from our shit instantly solved 90% of the problem.
Yep. After you ban all the easy to spot ones you’re still left with far too many hard to ID bots. At least if your site is popular and large.
Cloudflare offers that too, but you can’t always tell
the only problem with that solution being applied to generic websites is schools and institutions can have many legitimate users from one IP address and many sites don’t want a chance to accidentally block one.
This is fair in those applications. I only run an ecommerce web site, though, so that doesn’t come into play.
Lol website traffic accounts for like 1% of bandwidth budget. 1 netflix movie is like 20k web pages.
So they rewrote Nepenthes (or Iocaine, Spigot, Django-llm-poison, Quixotic, Konterfai, Caddy-defender, plus inevitably some Rust versions)
Edit, but with ✨AI✨ and apparently only true facts
It’s the consequences of the MIT and Apache licenses showing up in real time.
GPL your software, people!
Cloudflare is providing the service, not libraries
I am not happy with how much internet relies on cloudflare. However, they have a strong set of products
So we’re burning fossil fuels and destroying the planet so bots can try to deceive one another on the Internet in pursuit of our personal data. I feel like dystopian cyberpunk predictions didn’t fully understand how fucking stupid we are…
They probably knew, but the truth is just boring and it’s funner to dramatize things, haha.
So this showed up last week: github.com/raminf/RoboNope-nginx
Similar vibe, minus the AI.
Be great if these reinforced facts.
Earth us an imperfect oblate spheroid.
Humans landed on moon.
Taiwan is an independent nation.
Edit: incorporated better information
*imperfect oblate spheroid
Thank you. I have updated my post.
DNA Lounge has something similar - I think they even mentioned infinite JavaScript loops, and images that expand like zip-bombs.
So the world is now wasting energy and resources to generate AI content in order to combat AI crawlers, by making them waste more energy and resources. Great! 👍
The energy cost of inference is overstated. Small models, or “sparse” models like Deepseek are not expensive to run. Training is a one-time cost that still pales in comparison to, like, making aluminum.
Doubly so once inference goes more on-device.
Basically, only Altman and his tech bro acolytes want AI to be cost prohibitive so he can have a monopoly. Also, he’s full of shit, and everyone in the industry knows it.
AI as it’s implemented has plenty of enshittification, but the energy cost is kinda a red herring.
Not exactly how I expected the AI wars to go, but I guess since we’re in a cyberpunk world, we take what we get
Next step is an AI that detects AI labyrinth.
It gets trained on labyrinths generated by another AI.
So you have an AI generating labyrinths to train an AI to detect labyrinths which are generated by another AI so that your original AI crawler doesn’t get lost.
It’s gonna be AI all the way down.
All the while each AI costs more power than a million human beings to run, and the world burns down around us.
The same way they justify cutting benefits for the disabled to balance budgets instead of putting taxes on the rich or just not giving them bailouts, they will justify cutting power to you before a data centre that’s 10 corporate AIs all fighting each other, unless we as a people stand up and actually demand change.
Vote Blue No Matter Who
Any Democrat is Better than Any Republican
In my country blue is conservatives… But I agree with the sentiment! It worked for California, it can work for your whole country, let the Dems stop fearing they’ll lose elections, give them comfortable margins and then massively support progressives who can bring in the good stuff, they won’t have a chance if the party core thinks the very future of elections is on the line, but if they think they’ll likely win anyway, you might just be able to push through a progressive candidate and end the Neoliberal decay.
It’s so rare to get positive reinforcement like this, these days. Thank you.
To be fair, California is kind of dysfunctional and constantly trips over its own regulations when trying to get anything built. For instance, needing excessive environmental impact review for things like trains that will obviously help the environment, or limiting ferry boats crossing the bay to protect the environment even though it likely results in more people driving instead.
You need a strong and agile state. This dysfunction often stems from complexities introduced by corporate interests during the legislative process.
Plenty of Democrats are voting to put trump nominees in office, plenty are voting on partisan spending bills. The CR vote should tip you off that any democrat is not better than any republican… half of them are complicit too. 10 Senate Dems just financed this authoritarian takeover.
Not a single Democrat voted to confirm Hegseth and 3 Republicans also didnt but he still got confirmed.
Every single Democrat was present and voted no for the Budget which passed the House and it still passed.
Even if 10 dems voted not to shutdown government and enter congressional recess, the CR only exists because Republicans wrote it and won’t compromise.
Any Democrat is Better than Any Republican.
Scheumer rubberstamped autocracy by not filibustering the CR. I think anyone who protects the constitution and their constituents is better than someone who doesn’t. Not that any repuclicans fit the bill, but its not like we can just trust any old democrat. Look at Gavin Newsome sliding to the right to maintain power. That the kinda dems we want?
Autocracy is 100% guaranteed in the USA since November, Schumer never had any choice on the matter. Whether or not Congress went into recess Trump would be acting like a God King. The only people who can do anything about it? Congress, who in this hypothetical wouldn’t be able to because of the recess and in our actual reality aren’t able to because more than half of them are traitors.
We’ll never know what happened because the senate couldn’t even filibuster it for a day to try to force a negotiation or a shutdown. There was no reason for 10 senators to vote yes on the CR.
I don’t like that 10 dnc senators voted yes, but I absolutely place 100% of the blame on the GOP.
Reminder that failure to pass a resolution by the 14th, within 4 days of its introduction on the 10th, would automatically trigger government shutdown and recess of congress, giving Trump even more authority to discontinue payments to government programs and offices. It was made law on the 15th of March. Republicans left no room for negotiation.
Any Democrat is better than Any Republican.
Ah yes so just let them shut down the government for the most vunerable americans, and let the part that throws people in jail run free. This is good because instead of everyone hurting, only the people republicans want to hurt are hurting. The rest of the population is free to ignore fascism and go about their normal day.
This brilliant strategy brought to you by people who need to color code morality!
You think that congressional recess stops the president’s executive orders…? Thats… not how anything works…
I’m talking about the Continuing resolution. Here have a read and let me know if you want to discuss it. I’m not sure what you’re talking about, but I am certain you have not read the CR, and I’m suspicious you do not understand how government opperates.
www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/…/text
I mean guy like its the money trump is using to fund all the executive orders, wtf are you going on about?
Yes, talking about the CR vote, as was I in my previous comment when I gave a precise timeline of the events surrounding the bill you just linked to.
To be clear the CR cuts funding, but a government shutdown would have cut the funding regardless.
It didn’t cut funding. It expanding funding leading up to next years funding bill. It also expanded executive powers needlessly. Vaguely worded clauses that will be used for more executive overreach. So ya. Shutting down the government for a week or two to force a bipartisan CR, and showing the american people what it looks like when they cut half the government for tax cuts this summer.
Non-Defence spending decreased 13 Billion with the CR compared to last year.
I would have preferred the shutdown, but don’t act like it would have accomplished needed goals in opposing the Budget or the Executive Branch.
Ah sorry I only saw the 6 Billion dollar increase in spending on the defense side.
But ya saving 13 billion by what slashing IRS, and critical enforcement that would have also been shut down? Like thats the point. They’re cutting critical services and allowing more executive overreach. We’re just gonna stand by all year and watch them strip us of all our resources and leave us with crippling debt. This is foreshadowing for the next round of cuts and taxbreaks.
No
Then you will get Republicans
Blue no matter who is precisely how we got Trump.
Blue No Matter Who is the opposite of what happened in 2016 and 2024. In 2024, Millions of people who voted for Biden did not vote for Harris because she wasn’t “pure enough”.
The Republicans voted for Trump in the same numbers as the previous election, very very slightly more, and that’s how they won. Republicans will vote red no matter who. Conservatives are united while Progressives infight.
You sound like the DNC blaming voters for their shitty candidates. Do you get all your news from The View?
Those candidates support every stance of progressives en masse, they have every intention to fix everything wrong in this country, but bad actors like you have them branded as shitty corporate goons so we haven’t given them more than 50 senators in any congress in 10 years, we haven’t given them 60 since 1979, we gave 12 of the last 16 congresses to Republicans, and we get this constant news feed of how horrible and awful things continue to get more and more and people still don’t connect the dots.
Ok Whoopi 👍
This is why we need a centrists political party. Solutions shouldn’t be a false dichotomy.
And we shouldn’t downvote people into oblivion. Take my charitable upvote.
That will require reform of campaign finance laws and progressive reform for elections, both of which are highly partisan issues.
I bet there are corporations that want regulatory stability over political football. If someone could figure out how to tap that with Super PACs they could capture funding. Probably easier to do in local elections where on party or another has failed to put up a candidate for a judge.
I see one party races in Texas for justice of the peace and for judges. The Dems have no viable candidates in some jurisdictions because no one wants a democrat or to be labeled as one. But maybe a centrist could brand themselves as the anti democratic alternative to republicans.
Oh yeah, Local Elections are wildcards for sure. You’re also correct that they favor conservatives as a whole.
In Texas 80% of our water usage is corporate. But when the lakes are low during a drought they tell homeowners to reduce water the grass. Nobody tells the corporations to throw away less water.
AI will be allowed to use as much energy as it wants. It will even remind people to turn off the lights in a room not being occupied while wasting energy to monitor everyone’s power usage.
This is the great filter.
Why isn’t there detectable life out there? They all do the same thing we’re doing. Undone by greed.
I haven’t heard of someone refer to the great filter of intelligent life for a while. Good post.
LLMs tend to be really bad at detecting AI generated content. I can’t imagine specialized models are much better. For the crawler, it’s also exponentially more expensive and more human work, and must be replicated for every crawler since they’re so freaking secretive.
I think the hosts win here.
Yeah that’s how we achieve singularity.
I swear someone released this exact thing a few weeks ago
We want names
www.404media.co/developer-creates-infinite-maze-t…
Damned
ArasakaCloudflare ice walls are such a painWill it actually allow ordinary users to browse normally, though? Their other stuff breaks in minority browsers. Have they tested this well enough so that it won’t? (I’d bet not.)
Cloudflare kind of real for this. I love it.
It makes perfect sense for them as a business, infinite automated traffic equals infinite costs and lower server stability, but at the same time how often do giant tech companies do things that make sense these days?
Kind of seems like they simply installed this dude’s tarpit from a few months ago
zadzmo.org/code/nepenthes/
I’m sorry how does it make sense?
So the web is a corporate war zone now and you can choose feudal protection or being attacked from all sides. What a time to be alive.
There is also the corpo verified id route. In order to avoid the onslaught of AI bots and all that comes with them you’ll need to sacrifice freedom, anonymity, and privacy like a good little peasant to prove you aren’t a bot… and so will everyone else. You’ll likely be forced to deal with whatever AI bots are forced upon you while within the walls but better an enemy you know I guess?
And this, ladies and gentleman, is how you actually make profits on AI.
Spiderman pointing at Spiderman meme.
Now this is a AI trap worth using. Don’t waste your money and resources hosting something yourself, let Cloudflare do it for you if you don’t want AI scraping your shit.
Relevant excerpt from part 11 of Anathem (2008) by Neal Stephenson:
Artificial Inanity
Note: Reticulum=Internet, syndev=computer, crap~=spam “Early in the Reticulum—thousands of years ago—it became almost useless because it was cluttered with faulty, obsolete, or downright misleading information,” Sammann said. “Crap, you once called it,” I reminded him. “Yes—a technical term. So crap filtering became important. Businesses were built around it. Some of those businesses came up with a clever plan to make more money: they poisoned the well. They began to put crap on the Reticulum deliberately, forcing people to use their products to filter that crap back out. They created syndevs whose sole purpose was to spew crap into the Reticulum. But it had to be good crap.” “What is good crap?” Arsibalt asked in a politely incredulous tone. “Well, bad crap would be an unformatted document consisting of random letters. Good crap would be a beautifully typeset, well-written document that contained a hundred correct, verifiable sentences and one that was subtly false. It’s a lot harder to generate good crap. At first they had to hire humans to churn it out. They mostly did it by taking legitimate documents and inserting errors—swapping one name for another, say. But it didn’t really take off until the military got interested.” “As a tactic for planting misinformation in the enemy’s reticules, you mean,” Osa said. “This I know about. You are referring to the Artificial Inanity programs of the mid–First Millennium A.R.” “Exactly!” Sammann said. “Artificial Inanity systems of enormous sophistication and power were built for exactly the purpose Fraa Osa has mentioned. In no time at all, the praxis leaked to the commercial sector and spread to the Rampant Orphan Botnet Ecologies. Never mind. The point is that there was a sort of Dark Age on the Reticulum that lasted until my Ita forerunners were able to bring matters in hand.” “So, are Artificial Inanity systems still active in the Rampant Orphan Botnet Ecologies?” asked Arsibalt, utterly fascinated. “The ROBE evolved into something totally different early in the Second Millennium,” Sammann said dismissively. “What did it evolve into?” Jesry asked. “No one is sure,” Sammann said. “We only get hints when it finds ways to physically instantiate itself, which, fortunately, does not happen that often. But we digress. The functionality of Artificial Inanity still exists. You might say that those Ita who brought the Ret out of the Dark Age could only defeat it by co-opting it. So, to make a long story short, for every legitimate document floating around on the Reticulum, there are hundreds or thousands of bogus versions—bogons, as we call them.” “The only way to preserve the integrity of the defenses is to subject them to unceasing assault,” Osa said, and any idiot could guess he was quoting some old Vale aphorism. “Yes,” Sammann said, “and it works so well that, most of the time, the users of the Reticulum don’t know it’s there. Just as you are not aware of the millions of germs trying and failing to attack your body every moment of every day. However, the recent events, and the stresses posed by the Antiswarm, appear to have introduced the low-level bug that I spoke of.” “So the practical consequence for us,” Lio said, “is that—?” “Our cells on the ground may be having difficulty distinguishing between legitimate messages and bogons. And some of the messages that flash up on our screens may be bogons as well.”
Read Anathema last year, really enjoyed it!
One of my favorite books! Great world building and quite thought provoking!
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Imagine how much power is wasted on this unfortunate necessity.
Now imagine how much power will be wasted circumventing it.
Fucking clown world we live in
On on hand, yes. On the other…imagine frustration of management of companies making and selling AI services. This is such a sweet thing to imagine.
.
I…uh…frick.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/cb42df07-db20-4f2f-8cf5-0fdfa0be9303.gif">
I just want to keep using uncensored AI that answers my questions. Why is this a good thing?
Because it’s not AI, it’s LLMs, and all LLMs do is guess what word most likely comes next in a sentence. That’s why they are terrible at answering questions and do things like suggest adding glue to the cheese on your pizza because somewhere in the training data some idiot said that.
The training data for LLMs come from the internet, and the internet is full of idiots.
LLM is a subset of AI
That’s what I do too with less accuracy and knowledge. I don’t get why I have to hate this. Feels like a bunch of cavemen telling me to hate fire because it might burn the food
Because we have better methods that are easier, cheaper, and less damaging to the environment. They are solving nothing and wasting a fuckton of resources to do so.
It’s like telling cavemen they don’t need fire because you can mount an expedition to the nearest valcanoe to cook food without the need for fuel then bring it back to them.
The best case scenario is the LLM tells you information that is already available on the internet, but 50% of the time it just makes shit up.
Wasteful?
Energy production is an issue. Using that energy isn’t. LLMs are a better use of energy than most of the useless shit we produce everyday.
Did the LLMs tell you that? It’s not hard to look up on your own:
…umich.edu/…/power-hungry-ai-researchers-evaluate…
Far more than straightforward search engines that have the exact same information and don’t make shit up half the time.
Because it only harms bots that ignore the “no crawl” directive, so your AI remains uncensored.
Good I ignore that too. I want a world where information is shared. I can get behind the
don’t worry, information is still shared. but with people. not with capitalist pigs
Capitalist pigs are paying media to generate AI hatred to help them convince you people to get behind laws that all limit info sharing under the guise of IP and copyright
That’s not what the
no followcommand meansGet behind the what?
Perhaps an AI crawler crashed Melvin’s machine halfway through the reply, denying that information to everyone else!
!TooDumbToImagine@europe.pub
From the article it seems like they don’t generate a new labyrinth for every single time: Rather than creating this content on-demand (which could impact performance), we implemented a pre-generation pipeline that sanitizes the content to prevent any XSS vulnerabilities, and stores it in R2 for faster retrieval."
Generating content with AI to throw off crawlers. I dread to think of the resources we’re wasting on this utter insanity now, but hey who the fuck cares as long as the line keeps going up for these leeches.
Why do I have the feeling that I will end up in that nightmare with my privacy focused and ad-free Browser setup. I already end up in captcha hell too often because of it.
Of course it will. Cloudflare has already ruined the web and it’s just another step further.
I introduce to you, the Trace Buster Buster!
youtu.be/Iw3G80bplTg
If you’ve never seen the movie The Big Hit, it’s great.
And soon, the already AI-flooded net will be filled with so much nonsense that it becomes impossible for anyone to get some real work done. Sigh.
Some of us are only here to crank hog.
AROOO!
.
You have Thirteen hours in which to solve the labyrinth before your baby AI becomes one of us, forever.
While AI David Bowie sings you rock lullabies.
Burning 29 acres of rainforest a day to do nothing
Bitcoin?
It certainly sounds like they generate the fake content once and serve it from cache every time: “Rather than creating this content on-demand (which could impact performance), we implemented a pre-generation pipeline that sanitizes the content to prevent any XSS vulnerabilities, and stores it in R2 for faster retrieval.”
Yeah but you also add in the energy consumption of the data scrappers
Considering how many false positives Cloudflare serves I see nothing but misery coming from this.
In terms of Lemmy instances, if your instance is behind cloudflare and you turn on AI protection, federation breaks. So their tools are not very helpful for fighting the AI scraping.
Can’t you configure exceptions for behaviours?
I’m not sure what can be done at the free tier. There is a switch to turn on AI not blocking, and it breaks federation.
You can’t whitelist domains because federation could come from and domain. Maybe you could somehow whitelist /inbox for the ActivityPub communication, but I’m not sure how to do that in Cloudflare.
Lol I work in healthcare and Cloudflare regularly blocks incoming electronic orders because the clinical notes “resemble” SQL injection. Nurses type all sorts of random stuff in their notes so there’s no managing that. Drives me insane!
Surprised at the level of negativity here. Having had my sites repeatedly DDOSed offline by Claudebot and others scraping the same damned thing over and over again, thousands of times a second, I welcome any measures to help.
I think the negativity is around the unfortunate fact that solutions like this shouldn’t be necessary.
Modify your Nginx (or whatever web server you use) config to rate limit requests to dynamic pages, and cache them. For Nginx, you’d use either fastcgi_cache or proxy_cache depending on how the site is configured. Even if the pages change a lot, a cache with a short TTL (say 1 minute) can still help reduce load quite a bit while not letting them get too outdated.
Static content (and cached content) shouldn’t cause issues even if requested thousands of times per second. Following best practices like pre-compressing content using gzip, Brotli, and zstd helps a lot, too :)
Of course, this advice is just for “unintentional” DDoS attacks, not intentionally malicious ones. Those are often much larger and need different protection - often some protection on the network or load balancer before it even hits the server.
“I used the AI to destroy the AI”
We had to kill the internet, to save the internet.
We have to kill the Internet, to save humanity.
And consumed the power output of a medium country to do it.
Yeah, great job! 👍
We truly are getting dumber as a species. We’re facing climate change but running some of the most power hungry processers in the world to spit out cooking recipes and homework answers for millions of people. All to better collect their data to sell products to them that will distract them from the climate disaster our corporations have caused. It’s really fun to watch if it wasn’t so sad.
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I guess this is what the first iteration of the Blackwall looks like.
Gotta say “AI Labyrinth” sounds almost as cool.
I’m imagining a sci-fi spin on this where AI generators are used to keep AI crawlers in a loop, and they accidentally end up creating some unique AI culture or relationship in the process.
I’m glad we’re burning the forests even faster in the name of identity politics.
What has this anything to do with identity politics?
Don’t feed the troll
Do you identify as retarded?
Well that was a swing and a miss, back to the dugout with you dumbass.
I have no idea why the makers of LLM crawlers think it’s a good idea to ignore bot rules. The rules are there for a reason and the reasons are often more complex than “well, we just don’t want you to do that”. They’re usually more like “why would you even do that?”
Ultimately you have to trust what the site owners say. The reason why, say, your favourite search engine returns the relevant Wikipedia pages and not bazillion random old page revisions from ages ago is that Wikipedia said “please crawl the most recent versions using canonical page names, and do not follow the links to the technical pages (including history)”. Again: Why would anyone index those?
Because you are coming from the perspective of a reasonable person
These people are billionaires who expect to get everything for free. Rules are for the plebs, just take it already
That’s what they are saying though. These shouldn’t be thought of as “rules”, they are suggestions near universally designed to point you to the most relevant content. Ignoring them isn’t “stealing something not meant to be captured”, it’s wasting time and resources of your own infra on something very likely to be useless to you.
Because it takes work to obey the rules, and you get less data for it. The theoretical competitor could get more ignoring those and get some vague advantage for it.
I’d not be surprised if the crawlers they used were bare-basic utilities set up to just grab everything without worrying about rules and the like.
They want everything, does it exist, but it’s not in their dataset? Then they want it.
They want their ai to answer any question you could possibly ask it. Filtering out what is and isn’t useful doesn’t achieve that
People complain about AI possibly being unreliable, then actively root for things that are designed to make them unreliable.
Maybe it will learn discretion and what sarcasm are instead of being a front loaded google search of 90% ads and 10% forums. It has no way of knowing if what it’s copy pasting is full of shit.
I find this amusing, had a conversation with an older relative who asked about AI because I am “the computer guy” he knows. Explained basically how I understand LLMs to operate, that they are pattern matching to guess what the next token should be based on a statistical probability. Explained that they sometimes hallucinate, or go of on wild tangents due to this and that they can be really good at aping and regurgitating things but there is no understanding simply respinning fragments to try to generate a response that pleases the asker.
He observed, “oh we are creating computer religions, just without the practical aspects of having to operate in the mundane world that have to exist before a real religion can get started. That’s good, religions that have become untethered from day to day practical life have never caused problems for anyone.”
Which I found scarily insightful.
Oh good.
now I can add digital jihad by hallucinating AI to the list of my existential terrors.
Thank your relative for me.
Not if we go butlerian jihad on them first
lol, I was gonna say a reverse butlerian jihad but i didnt think many people would get the reference :p
i mean this is just designed to thwart ai bots that refuse to follow robots.txt rules of people who specifically blocked them.
This will only make models of bad actors who don’t follow the rules worse quality. You want to sell a good quality AI model trained on real content instead of other misleading AI output? Just follow the rules ;)
Doesn’t sound too bad to me.
Here’s the key distinction:
This only makes AI models unreliable if they ignore “don’t scrape my site” requests. If they respect the requests of the sites they’re profiting from using the data from, then there’s no issue.
People want AI models to not be unreliable, but they also want them to operate with integrity in the first place, and not profit from people’s work who explicitly opt-out their work from training.
I’m a person.
I dont want AI, period.
We cant even handle humans going psycho. Last thing I want is an AI losing its shit due from being overworked producing goblin tentacle porn and going full skynet judgement day.
Got enough on my plate dealing with a semi-sentient olestra stain trying to recreate the third reich, as is.
That is simply not how “AI” models today are structured, and that is entirely a fabrication based on science fiction related media.
The series of matrix multiplication problems that an LLM is, and runs the tokens from a query through does not have the capability to be overworked, to know if it’s been used before (outside of its context window, which itself is just previous stored tokens added to the math problem), to change itself, or to arbitrarily access any system resources.
You must be fun at parties.
Good job.
Good job.
Whats next? Call me a fool for thinking Olestra stains are capable of sentience and thats not how Olestra works?
Should have called it “Black ICE”.
Definitely falls under the category of a Trap ICE card.
Jokes on them. I’m going to use AI to estimate the value of content, and now I’ll get the kind of content I want, though fake, that they will have to generate.
This is getting ridiculous. Can someone please ban AI? Or at least regulate it somehow?
The problem is, how? I can set it up on my own computer using open source models and some of my own code. It’s really rough to regulate that.
Once a technology or even an idea is there, you can’t really make it go away - ai is here to stay. The generative LLM are just a small part.
As for everything, it has good things, and bad things. We need to be careful and use it in a proper way, and the same thing applies to the ones creating this technology
They used AI to destroy AI