from ForgottenFlux@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 27 Feb 2025 16:42
https://lemmy.world/post/26125105
The latest Edge Canary version started disabling Manifest V2-based extensions with the following message: “This extension is no longer supported. Microsoft Edge recommends that you remove it.” Although the browser turns off old extensions without asking, you can still make them work by clicking “Manage extension” and toggling it back (you will have to acknowledge another prompt).
At this point, it is not entirely clear what is going on. Google started phasing out Manifest V2 extensions in June 2024, and it has a clear roadmap for the process. Microsoft’s documentation, however, still says “TBD,” so the exact dates are not known yet. This leads to some speculating about the situation being one of “unexpected changes” coming from Chromium. Either way, sooner or later, Microsoft will ditch MV2-based extensions, so get ready as we wait for Microsoft to shine some light on its plans.
Another thing worth noting is that the change does not appear to be affecting Edge’s stable release or Beta/Dev Channels. For now, only Canary versions disable uBlock Origin and other MV2 extensions, leaving users a way to toggle them back on. Also, the uBlock Origin is still available in the Edge Add-ons store
threaded - newest
Firefox time
LibreWolf time too.
Zen is nice
Hopefully mainline Firefox can take some design notes from Zen
Zen was amazing when they first came to light, but they keep changing how workflows work, and it destroyed the workflow I had.
For example, I am a browser minimalist. I don’t need workspaces, and I don’t have thousands of tabs open, because that’s insane to me, personally. I now have to see the ugly Default Workspace at the top of my tab bar every time I go to open or switch tabs. This was an option before, so it was perfectly fine. They’ve taken that option away, which is very much not okay. Options are good. They also messed around with the New Tab icon, making it to where I couldn’t move it to the bottom where I prefer it to be, instead putting it at the top, which is extra movement needed to get to the top… They later added that back in, but again, why the fuck are you just willy nilly taking options away from people? It should just be an OPTION.
Anyway, I’ve had so many headaches with their approach to changing workflows that I don’t even recommend it to anyone any longer. I’m sure I’m just the crazy person who wants some of the offerings, while not being FORCED to use some of the others. :)
Yeah, I hate how projects become allergic to options. If you want to push your own agenda with new defaults, okay fine, but never ever remove options, let people keep it how they liked it.
I saw in their notes for the previous updates about the workspaces, which essentially said “workspaces are a major part of Zen, so you are no longer allowed to NOT use them”. When it was clearly a viable option before. So much for being customizable!
Infinite options is bad design for a number of reasons. One is that when everyone’s experience is unique, troubleshooting is impossible. Two is that when you add an option, you have to support that option forever.
Options are expensive, at least if you want to keep your software working for a long period of time.
Then adding too many options is the problem, not having options in the first place.
You can remove that, i don’t see any workspaces
I have a feeling you might be one of those that turned their automatic updates off after an issue where they really, really fucked the UI up on Macs, or something like that. Or you might be a person who doesn’t like the auto updates anywhere.
I turned mine off for awhile, but don’t want to catch anything when a new FF release rolls out, so I turned them back on, especially since I rarely use the browser anymore due to said changes with no user options.
I’m on the latest version on Windows, Linux, and Mac. The option is gone, I’m afraid.
I’m on the latest version try installing this Zen Mod that lets you remove anything zen-browser.app/…/ab9b529c-63d6-48c0-a59a-4a407c5…
While I really appreciate you for helping, the fact that these were part of the core application, then taken away by the developers so that we rely on third parties to bring back, is my biggest gripe with the browser. The options were there, and they took them out. I would rather just go back to Firefox than deal with an always changing UI, and removal of options. :/
I understand that feeling although they do mention it’s a browser in alpha still so i don’t judge them too harshly for it
To be fair it’s still alpha software, things are basically guaranteed to change until they reach a stable state. I’ve enjoyed it so far though
In floorp you can remove the workspace button from the top and disable them altogether I think.
I use Firefox for most things, but Google Meet maxes out all my CPUs if I use Firefox. Any kind of screen sharing kills it. Suggestions on how I can get video encoding working greatly appreciated… Intel Xe graphics.
Personally I keep a copy of chromium around just for Google meet. Everything else is on Firefox.
Same…
same
I used to just use Firefox for Google Meet, but it seems they broke it somewhere along the way. Probably on purpose.
If I needed ANY version of chrome around I would keep Vivaldi.
Using Vivaldi as a second browser, after Firefox.
Well, Firefox tries really hard to go to shit as well with their new Privacy Policy and their first ever Terms of Service.
For anybody unaware, their new privacy notice essentially states that if you opt in to using a third party LLM within Firefox, the LLM provider will get the info that you give to the LLM.
Thanks for the eli5
Genuine question - isn’t their terms basically “if you use these third party services you’re subject to their terms, and also were going to collect some data to see if people actually use this feature or if it’s a waste of time?”
Yup. But FUD must be pumped out.
LLM usage is a part of it, but it’s not the only thing. They are moving more and more in a direction that they use your usage data for marketing I feel.
For example search suggestions, where they started tracking in which location you are searching for what and tell that third party advertisers, so that they can show you ads depending on your information. Additionally they also state very clear that they will handle personal information and location data and give that to third parties if you use advanced search.
Another example is the “new tab” in which they show ads and sponsored content and track how you interact with that for showing you better ads.
There are a lot of other features which will track behavior or usage, but you have to actively use them.
Then there is the debate about the “you grant us non exclusive, worldwide” rights to use your uploaded and typed in data discussion. Yes, they need to have rights to handle my data I input, but together with the ads stuff this smells fishy. Maybe more so because this is the first ever Terms of Use and all of that has been working without that in the past.
In the meantime they set usage reports and studies active per default. You can disable it, but you have to know about that option.
All of that is far from other browsers like Chrome and Edge but they seem to slowly change in a more ads-driven way. Firefox was basically surviving on google money the last decade, and that may stop, so we have to be extra careful.
The Privacy Policy for a long time has been that they use your data for marketing. I’m honestly completely confused why people are always recommending it.
firefox is starting to enshittify, LIBREWOLF, or another might be better.
Who fucking uses edge?
Noobs who like to live on the edge
Sticking it to Sundar the creep while getting in bed with Satya the creep
90% of people and corporations are either using Edge or Chrome and since there’s essentially no difference between the two they are equally bad. We’re back to a browser mono-culture, just like in the bad old days of Internet Explorer.
It’s not that bad yet. FF works on pretty much any site that’s not demonstrating some sort of bleeding edge fuckery. I haven’t seen a “best viewed in Chrome” for a decade or two.
Hopefully this sort of enshittification will drive more people to use other browsers.
Aka shit not compliant with web standards.
Yet. I lived through the first browser war (Netscape Navigator vs Internet Explorer) and I’d estimate we’re right about the year 2000 ish. At that time both browsers were still active and reasonably well supported but it was clear that IE was going to win and somewhere in the IE6 / IE7 (2004 / 2006) time frame is when the real fuckery started. Since Edge started using Chromium in 2018(ish) we’re basically following the same schedule from two decades ago.
Sadly this is the same thing we said back then too and we (IT & the tech community) pushed hard to get people to leave IE and adopt Chrome.
Don’t forget Safari. On iOS it is the only usable browser currently with everything else just being a reskin of Safari. There are a lot of iOS users.
That is set to change but only in the European Union.
And I believe Mozilla isn’t planning on porting proper Firefox to iOS. Chromium is more likely to come over.
If Chromium manages to take much of the market share Safari has (like if Apple decides to ever make non-safari browsers a thing outside of the EU), it’s game over for browser engine diversity. Safari is currently in second place in market share behind Chrome, followed by another Chromium browser, Edge. Firefox is so low, it’s a rounding error.
I’ve had some mandatory training sites specifically disallow Firefox. But I’ve also had some that only work on Firefox, so it evens out.
I’ve found Gmail really hates firefox, especially with VPN. I have to use one of those masking extensions. I’ve found that its basically locked me out of my student email.
Hmm I haven’t had any issues with my university gmail, I wonder if it’s that specific college?
They might be using a third party authenticator to control access. My own job does that. Though I’ve been told we’re moving to Outlook soon.
Yup. Software developer here for a small company. We use a Windows. Chrome for testing applications and edge is just there. We are all in on Microsoft, server is C# .Net, running on azure with teams and outlook and office.
I do use Firefox though but I’m the only one out of 7.
I’m also a software developer and I’ve never touched any of that professionally. There’s a lot more diversity of ecosystems out there, bud.
I know there are but my employer is amazing and the work life balance is great. Don’t care enough to try and change our tech stack, but I hold no ill will towards anyone who does care enough.
Did you know Wayne Gretzky and his brother hole the record for highest scoring brother duo in the NHL?
That comment reads the same way.
Uuuuh… being a web dev in those days… You essentially first built support for proper browsers, then it was time to make things look and work as they should (or close to it) in IE.
I do when shitty devs don’t test in firefox and things are broken.
On the rare occasion I want to stream movies while on my PC at 1080p, because most online movie services will only stream 1080p to Edge. Some times Chrome will be allowed to stream 1080p but it’s pretty hit or miss in my experience. On another note, basically no streaming services will stream movies to you in 4k on a PC, I’ve also found most streaming apps on my phone won’t give me 4k either, you can only really get 4k streaming to a smart TV… it’s pretty ridiculous.
Why let the streaming services tell you what you can or can’t watch videos on when you can just pirate everything?
Weirdly enough, I like buying movies to encourage people to keep making the kinds of movies I enjoy watching. I have some physical media, but often times you can’t find 4k versions of movies on physical media.
Also, I tend to buy digital and don’t watch subscription services much.
you can buy a normal physical version then pirate the 4K file
If the disk is going to be unused/thrown out anyway - why not buy a digital copy? Its only job would be corresponding to a usable file you download anyway… I do that with Steam games.
Archive the physical copy for the inevitable shutdown. No one can stop an old disc player plugged into a dumb tv.
But no one can take a file from my hard drives either. No need for it to be on a low-capacity disk when a thing half the size of a DVD box can fit orders of magnitude more.
If you rely so much on buying digital, be ready for a surprise later on down the line.
A lot of PlayStation users found out the hard way.
My 73 years old father
My workplace configures edge and chrome by default, were very office365 integrated and support chrome for some dates specific thing.
Now i am privileged with local admin powers so i have firefox. Still the integrations with edge run deep so i still have to use it lots of times. There are plans for copilot which is one of the dummest llm bots (opinion) but is again catered to edge.
I will however never use chrome (anymore). Google was the second tech giant i dropped after facebook. They cannot redeem themselves for destroying the web (opinion). I rarely use search engines anymore but i rather use bing and bing sucks. (duckduck is also based on bing)
Sorry for the rant, but that was relieving. Arch btw.
At least Bing pays you to use them, so don’t feel bad
Edge wasn’t that bad honestly, I prefer it over chrome and use it when I need to test a site on that engine.
Ive been firefox for a long while now
Firefox has been my daily driver for a decade but that doesn’t really change anything that I said.
x2
Corps. All of the bells and whistles it has ties into the corps tenant which includes isolation of things like sync’d profiles, seamless sso, favorites, extensions, etc
Since it’s all under the tenant, all of that data is subject to the same privacy and policies the corp and MS agreed to, which makes it easy to work with other companies that have their own client policy requirements.
MS also makes it easy to control and harden all of their products including Edge using policy controls from a single UI.
You can’t do any of this with Firefox without extra effort.
Yeah the level of control Active Directory can have over Edge is unparalleled. The entire industry would move to a more secure browser and can be centrally managed with Active Directory if something existed.
Chrome has admx templates for AD that give you the same level of control.
People.
What a bunch of bastards.
My company has blocked all other web browsers, so lots of us sadly.
probably wanted to monitor your every move, because the others one might shield your identity.
I like it’s pdf viewer interface. It’s less cluttered than Adobe, and it’s markup is a little better than Firefox.
Vivaldi still supports V2 Manifest (including ublock Origin) until July, I believe. Brave too, I think.
edit: I find it fascinating how mentions of Vivaldi (or other browsers) always gets so many downvotes. Why do downvoters care so much about browsers they don’t use?
Because we want a more permanent solution than one that's only going to last until Summer. What's even the point of switching if you just gotta do it again soon?
Edit: Winter too. I apologize to our friends on the southern hemisphere.
Wait, is that all? Because its not a permanent forever fix for Edge users its downvote worthy?
Maybe Vivaldi or Brave users are reading this article thinking their Manifest v2 support is ending at the same time as Edge? It isn’t and I’m letting those users know.
Maybe there is some critical functionality someone needs in a Chrome based browser and they’ll take Manifest v2 support wherever they can get it for as long as they can?
Do you think your specific situation, and therefore your specific desired solution, is the only one in the world that exists?
Yes.
I really appreciate the honesty, thank you. I now don’t have to care that those downvotes are rational.
Following this same logic I imagine you downvote news of any treatments that extend the life of cancer patients because the new treatments aren’t full cures.
Except in this case, the full cure also exists already and you’re trying to push the temporary treatment instead, for no good reason.
There is no full cure. Nothing will offer a Chrome based browser support Manifest v2 after July. Your “cure” is “give up now”. Which, hey, if you want to, go for it. But for those that don’t for their own reasons, why are you so upset about them having the info about other browsers? I’m offering people information on a option that will preserve the functionality of manifest v2 Chrome based browsers or if they’re already using them that are still working meanwhile the article we’re talking about is referencing that functionality being removed early.
I find it bizarre that these downvoters are so obsessed with people not having this information. How is this information in peoples hands hurting YOU so much? If you don’t want to use Vivaldi? Don’t! I’m not your dad. Move on and the people that want this info have it.
.
The full cure is a non-Chrome-based browser, obviously. The notion of “some critical functionality someone needs in a Chrome based browser” would violate web standards and is therefore invalid bullshit and a cynical attempt to move goalposts.
Why are you arguing in bad faith?
Wrong. There are browsere whose adblocker doesn’t depen on MV2 or MV3. Why are you arguing in bada faith?
There are Chrome based addons that require manifest V2 that are NOT adblockers. Again, just because you want it for adblocking doesn’t mean your use case is the only one that exists.
The use case of 90% of people doesn’t include extensions at all…
I know, I use one as my primary browser actually!
I’m not arguing in bad faith. I want to have a Chrome based browser with Manifest V2 in addition to that. For those that have the same desire, I’m offering info on that. Thats it.
FLOORP
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/39ab1068-9d70-4a30-896b-65f6513f8398.jpeg">
Did they fix the issue of their license partially closed? Or is it still the same
Yes, actually, they made the source available again.
.
Just discovered them yesterday and made the switch!
How painless is it to carry over everything from Firefox?
Was super easy but my setup is pretty minimal.
Export bookmarks from Firefox, install favourite addons in the Floorp extension menu and lastly import bookmarks.
Most of the settings will be familiar and some features will be new like the workspaces and sidebar.
Hope your transfer goes smoothly!
I’ve looked it up and apparently there’s a problem where if you open a new window with any amount of tabs and close it last, you will lose all your tabs on the first window. It’s a big no for me, because I already had to restore last opened windows in Firefox many times, and I am pretty sure you previously could just press
CTRL+SHIFT+Tand it did reopen them, although I might misremember things.Microsoft Edge is literally Google Chrome button replaced with Microsoft Features/Spyware
Oh no, like I ever use Edgeplorer.
Ok
Ok maybe off topic, why does a web browser have to be one of the most complicated software artifacts on earth? So expensive to write and maintain that only a few orgs with huge developer resources can do it?
What would it look like to start from scratch with a massively simplified standard for specifying UIs, based on all we’ve learned since html/css was invented? A standard that a few developers could implement in a few weeks using off the shelf libraries. Rather than reimplement every bizarre historical detail in html/css, have a new UI layout system that’s simple and consistent, and perhaps more powerful.
Probably a lot better. The difficult, and expensive, part is getting everyone to migrate over to this new standard, not because it’d be unfeasible but because companies don’t want to spend any time or money on things that they don’t think will make them profit.
What we’d need is, for example, the EU realizing that Google’s attempted monopoly on the internet is dangerous and requiring a certain standard for private consumer-facing websites to get the ball rolling.
Basically browsers are big because they are operating systems for web hosted applications with huge attack surfaces and lots of legacy compatibility requirements amassed over 3 decades.
A rewrite isn’t the answer. Putting limits on browser functionality is. JavaScript was the turning point IMHO.
I think it could be sensible to come out with a subset of modern web tech stack, and just use that. There could be even a lightweight web browser just for this subset. The problem is of course on agreeing with what would be included.
Sounds like you’re describing pure HTML5
JavaScript partially took off due to HTML’s limited functionality at the time. This was also around the time that web media was becoming really big, which before HTML5 it wasn’t easy to integrate into a webpage without turning to extra libraries or extensions
If you don’t want to be compatible with what millions of websites are written in (because that’s the complicated part), you now have to convince all of them to invest lots of money to migrate to your new web standard… Good luck…
You don’t have to replace the html web. If a new system was sufficiently fun to create with, people might use it for all kinds of cool new projects. Kind of like Flash used to be. You’d go there for a specific thing you heard about.
A new web free of cruft might turn out to be cheaper to develop for, and that might appeal to the corporate types. Maybe useful for intranet type apps where the browser is specified anyway and you have a captive audience.
I feel like this sort of thing should be more modular. Maybe on Linux we could in theory have multiple packages that could have different implementations and the browser UI would just use the underlying packages with their specific extras on top.
That would also align well with the Unix philosophy of each component “doing one thing well” and composing small tools to achieve complex tasks.
Splitting things add a different level of complexity (public APIs, deprecations, different versions, etc.) but it would make the web much more free, since we could have different individuals maintaining different packages and no organization would have too much control over the web.
I believe this is possible because we have very complex stuff such as entire Desktop Environments on Linux that are made up of multiple packages and each package just do a well defined thing and build on top of each other to create a “whole” experience in the end.
Probably a lot like Gemini web. No, not the AI bauble.
Did both Edge users complain?
Unfortunately Edge is the 2nd most popular browser, with double the market share of Firefox.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/6fae3685-7131-4ca4-8712-70fa2d221035.jpeg">
It’s slowly turning, too. Start looking for something else.
We need a truly FOSS browser that developed and maintained by the community. Librewolf isn’t it unless it fully forks away from Mozilla. We need a new engine and we just don’t have one yet.
I agree. I’d even be willing to regularly donate to a foundation that would have this aim as their goal and have their acts matching their promises.
Although, not necessarily a new engine. Going from scratch is a good way to remake a lot of mistakes, while reusing old code is a good way to keep old debt. That’s not a decision I would like to have to take.
Ladybird Browser is coming, but could be a couple years still
ladybird.org
From scratch, BSD licensed, non-profit managed
Ew. It ought to be AGPLv3.
(I almost just said “copyleft,” but as Chromium proves, even LGPL is insufficient protection from corporate usurpation.)
Truly; it’s shocking how much people are still clinging to permissive licensing in the middle of everything going on.
An AGPL license is a verdict that the browser will not be successful.
In addition, Ladybird is under the guardianship of a non-profit organization.
Huh? The goal of the chromium project was to facilitate a corporate browser in the first place. It’s why they don’t have a more permissive license. They want to be able to use everyone else’s work if anyone forks it.
Permissive license doesn’t mean that corporations suddenly get the ability to completely change existing work for the worse, or change its’ license. They can bloody well do that with GPL too if they own the project including contributions, so it doesn’t matter if it’s BSD or GPL, the only protection that the open source users have, in any case, is that licenses can’t be changed retroactively, so if Firefox, Chromium or Ladybird went completely closed source and proprietary today, we’d still have the right to use the code as it was yesterday. Permissive licenses just mean that someone somewhere can create a closed source build without the permission of the person or company who owns the project and that doesn’t particularly matter for anyone using Ladybird or any future open source derivatives. Permissive licenses are useful for libraries, but also for software that could be bundled as part of a bigger solution. Maybe you want to embed a web browser in your proprietary application and don’t want to use webview because its’ usability differs platform to platform.
Also why AGPLv3 and not GPLv3? I don’t think the “A” part is even necessary here, that’s needed more for server side applications, I.e if the end user is using online without the code running on their own computer, AGPL is the one to use.
Anyway, in the modern age, (A)GPL is used by a shit ton of corporate software. Oftentimes with an (A)GPL open core and a bunch of proprietary functionality not included in the core. I should know, I work with one example on a near daily basis. This way, nobody can just take their core functionality and develop a closed source alternative, while they can sell you an enterprise license for full functionality on their “open source” software.
The reason why Chromium uses LGPL is because they forked the code from Safari, which had previously forked the code from KHTML (KDE’s web rendering component, used in Konqueror). The LGPL was provably insufficient to prevent corporate usurpation of the project, as a historical fact.
As for the “A” part of AGPL not being relevant for locally-run software, (1) it doesn’t hurt either, and (2) having maximal protections could prevent weird corporate shenanigans that we haven’t thought of yet.
The LGPL does its job, it’s not as copyleft as GPL or AGPL, but having those licenses doesn’t guarantee that companies will use it, like Gab, which used a fork of Mastodont, Truth Social, or Pawoo. If you want a more restrictive license, the OSI basically won’t accept it as open source because it doesn’t meet their guidelines.
Also, there are no other browsers due to the standards set by W3C and therefore browsers have to have corporate support.
Backed by Shopify, huh? Bet they wish that wasn’t the case, given recent events.
The web platform is huge… It’s going to take a long time to reach parity with other browsers.
Sounds like a job for JoMiran! Rooting for you!
Why a new engine, Firefox is open source?!
Fork Firefox.
But good luck funding a team to keep up with commercial companies’ pace. It needs funding.
If Mozilla made a way to donate in a way that I KNEW it would go towards the maintenance of the browser, and not another crappy thing they’re trying to be profitable, I’d donate in a second. I spend about £30/month on OSS donations and I’d happily add £5/month to Mozilla if I trusted them not to misspend it.
You answered the question yourself. The worry is that without a hard fork that is fully maintained we’ll continue to have a dependence on Mozilla. It doesn’t need to be a new engine, but it does need to be an independent one.
It’s almost like this not-for-profit, for-profit subsidiary thing is a cancer (or at least, my selection bias of late thinks so).
Can someone ELI5 why a foundation can’t develop these products directly, with a for-profit subsidiary? Is there something forbidden about rasing revenue for a not-for-profit via product sales? Would this even fix anything?
Sam Reichfox
The only way to learn, is by playing
Lil arms!
Not for much more, it seems.
oh look at that. It’s ‘chromium based browsers are garbage o’clock.’
It’s nice to use a browser which doesn’t depend of extensions to block ads.
Is not Adblock Plus baked into Edge?
No.
AdBlock Plus has been a sell-out for many years now. Only trust uBlock Origin.
I had a feeling this would happen. I have to use Google services for a lot of things at work and Edge works fine with them. Firefox usually does okay, but not always. And now Firefox is requiring you to hand over your data to them.
Can any Chromium-based browser refuse to turn on V3 or is it too baked-in without forking the entire project?
IIRC Vivaldi and Brave promised to prolong it for a year.
Test-driving them both now.
If you’re talking about the most recent news about the Terms of Service, that is a gross misreading of what they said.
That’s not what that Firefox thing was about at all.
If you’re talking about the recent news, that’s not what the updated privacy notice says.
Mozilla will be adding opt in LLM functionality to Firefox. It can use third party LLM providers. The privacy has been updated to say “btw, any info you give to this LLM will be processed by the LLM by a third party.” I.e. the LLM provider has the data once you send it to them.
I imagine so, but the technical burden is at risk of growing over time as the upstream chromium may significantly deviate from or remove some of the functionality.
Fancy firefox-based browser along the lines of Arc?
zen-browser.app
Worth a look if you’re a web power-user / developer sort of person
I use love the mod feature
.
It’s desktop-only right now and feels like for the foreseeable future. Firefox sync works between Zen and Firefox so you can just run Firefox or one of the Android-specific versions of Firefox that support the generic/vanilla firefox sync.
I was thinking of maybe trying it for a few specific websites that I keep persistently on since I think it may work well for that. However, I was a bit concerned that logins and stuff won’t sync which might make it annoying. Having this sync seems pretty cool though, might try it out.
I do not like the wording of this because you are opening it
I was concerned, but it’s not Wiki style.
It’s just a fancy skin for modal windows. It pops open over 70% of the screen front and center.
Personally. I find tabs more useful, but haven’t fully switched over from Firefox yet so I haven’t looked into disabling it.
Nonsense, you’re not opening them! You’re fetching them for viewing. It’s totally different!
Yeah, viewing a link without opening it is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
You just viewed a link without opening it.
Firefox based. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I’mma give this a try.
Honestly this has been my daily driver for the past 6 months or so.
I really like it. The aesthetics are really modern, while still maintaining all the things I like about firefox.
Why is there a sidebar for tabs? That seems wasteful for all the screen space it takes.
Edit: From what I see it tries to do everything that is a job of a window manager/desktop environment. There are various solutions to have workspaces, etc. that you can use globally, so I don’t understand why would anyone use this, unless you are on locked system like Windows or Mac.
I’d direct people to Firefox, but Mozilla is doing some weird shit right now and I just can’t. And the forks are always with some weird limitations or issues. Why does it all have to be shit these days?
I was on Netscape in the 90s, I got on Firefox when it was still Phoenix/Firebird, and I haven’t left once. You’ve been a good friend.
(Though I do like Palemoon a lot since I love the pre Quantum and pre WebExtensions days).
.
it’s very brave to say something like that here
True. Most of the negative comments about Chromium here are really obtuse. Looks like people feel the need to gain imaginary internet points by praising a mediocre browser made by a misguided Corp. such as Mozilla.
Save your time and avoid replying here. I wont’ reply back. I’m not interested in arguing. Just block me if you disagree and go on with your life.
people think of browsers and operating systems here like it’s a religion or something, it makes them crazy. google is a problem, but it’s not like mozilla isn’t going to pull the same crap when it gets big enough.
Let’s hope that Ladybird be better than Mozilla Firefox.
I would be curious if Ladybird is successful, maybe Microsoft, Apple or Brave will use it after leaving Chrome and WebKit.
Maybe, but even if it happens it’s going to take a lot of time. Let’s wait and see.
Why? Brave is amazing!
brave is built on chromium and it also has crypto stuff, so people here hate it
You can easily hide crypto stuff (which I do) and Chromium is great, just not Google Chrome, but the actual Chromium.
the problem with chromium is that because 98% of people use it, google gets to decide how the internet works basically
I get that, but alternatives suck. Firefox doesn’t even support all of the extensions I need.
Brave will support it until it becomes inconvenient or difficult to do so as the Chromium base keeps moving. The more time goes on, the more work it’ll be for Brave to maintain this forked functionality.
My guess is at some point Brave will discontinue V2 and say “just use the Brave inbuilt adblocker”.
Regardless, Brave have their own skeletons in the closet… crypto, the Windows installer installing other Brave applications during browser install without consent (that one is straight up malware behaviour. Reminds me of the days of software installing Internet Explorer toolbars without consent), injecting their affiliate links when nobody asked, a CEO who donated money to homophobic causes more than once.
E: my above theory was correct, sort of:
They are only committing to enabling the disabled Mv2 code in Chromium. Once it’s removed altogether, Brave probably won’t bother keeping it and maintaining it. Basically, if you want Mv2, only Firefox and its derivatives are committed to keeping it.
None of these small browsers can make significant changes to the original project. A browser nowadays is a super complex bloated thing that requires too much resources to maintain. If even M$ abandoned their engine to go with Chromium (because it was probably costing them a lot of resources to keep compatibility with the evolving standards, security fixes etc.) what hope is there for small companies? Arguably Apple’s Safari has significant differences compared to Chrome, but we’re talking about Apple…
People thinking this is a solution are gonna get disappointed eventually. For now, Firefox is the only alternative product that has been maintained for decades.
Fair, I love Brave too much tho. And I don’t care about Manifest V2. So, for me personally its great.
Lol Microsoft really using their browser market share effectively
Just in case you needed another reason not to use Edge.
Chrome* or Chromium based browsers*
<img alt="LibreWolf Logo - LibreWolf is a security and privacy focused browser based on Firefox that comes with uBlock Origin preinstalled" src="https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/0e2f92f4-9d51-4673-92d7-506241eac985.webp">
'nough said!
Amarok? That was my favorite media player way back when
Amarok is the other wolf. I know it looks deceptively similar.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/b9bb53ca-925c-4319-a3eb-758739d0fd3c.webp">
itsthesamepicture.bmp
Looks like <img alt="" src="https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/631ecbeb-9758-416b-b8d0-0990f6acd7ec.png">
They recently started developing it again, after being silent for a long time. They released Amarok 3.0 in April 2024 which migrated it to Qt5 and KDE Frameworks 5.
Does not elicit the image of iron.
Oh, it’s libre.
Librewolf on desktop Mull on Android
DivestOS has ceased maintaining Mull if I remember correctly. I use Ironfox on Android now.
Mull is not maintained anymore. However there is a fork called IronFox.
Well shit… Thanks for the heads up!
No problem!
What’s the advantage over regular Firefox?
You can think of it as a mobile version of LibreWolf. Strict security settings are default and Mozilla’s telemetry is disabled/removed. Also unlike regular Firefox, you can download it from F-Droid (currently you need their repo but it’ll be added officially soon, probably).
Are they doing their own development or are they still mostly reliant on Mozilla? The thing with all these forks is that I doubt they’d be able to continue development if Mozilla were to disappear, since they still rely heavily on Mozilla.
They are reliant. These forks are basically tweaked Firefox.
Yeah, FIrefox is a huge code base. If Mozilla disappears, some big developer group must take over the flag. Otherwise with only community effort, the development would be slowed down.
Firefox is in the process of enshittifying.
Regular Android Firefox has Ublock origins as well.
I don’t suggest Librewolf for the plebians though.
It comes with very aggressive anti-fingerprinting and privacy features.
For people in !technology@lemmy.world that’s less of a problem but I wouldn’t suggest it to my family members.
People actually use that thing?
It’s the number one browser to download other browsers, so yeah, sure!
Edge is actually pretty decent. Native vertical tabs, M365 SSO integration, native multiple profiles with quick switching, preinstalled on your work computer and will work with anything that “only works in chrome”
Obviously this is ignoring the obvious downsides such as assisting Microsoft’s search, browser and platform monopolies, tracking data sent to Microsoft, etc. etc.
Me and my colleagues in tech call it the ‘Granny Browser’.
Either use Firefox/UBlock Origin or Brave. Brave’s native adblock is good enough you don’t need add-ons.
I dont know why people keep recommending brave.
its a fucking scummy fucking browser that has a history of stealing money, hijacking referal codes (like honey just got in deep trouble over), installing unnecessary software without consent and more.
They really only recommend it because the average joe doesn’t need to install UBO on it, I also removed it after the VPN service controversy.
Are you implying the crypto-bro browser with connections to a billionaire that runs the largest corporate intelligence agency in the world may not be the best choice of browser? That’s not the sort of attitude that generates value for the shareholders.
Because it’s a good product.
My friends who are less tech literate swear by brave. I think it’s the way they market their browser… Some of Brave’s core audience don’t want to install a third party extension for adblock (either they don’t like third party or they just don’t know they can do it in other browsers)
Also on opening a new tab, they show the stats of how much data they saved and how much ads it blocked. Some people like seeing the number grow.
All this is my speculation. There may be some other reason for it being this popular.
If it’s being heavily marketed, that’s a red flag.
Because it just works fine and block ads by default, maybe? A wild guess, I know. /s
I am entirely unshocked that people who don’t know shit, swear by bad products and scams.
Because it’s good.
Bullshit.
If you want to use the browser despite those controversies then that’s your choice, but be honest enough to admit they exist.
I don’t use brave and haven’t for a long time, but these things are well documented.
www.searchenginejournal.com/…/491854/
zdnet.com/…/brave-browser-the-bad-and-the-ugly/
tomsguide.com/…/brave-affiliate-links-autocomplet…
windowscentral.com/…/brave-browser-is-installing-…
These are negligible or even non-issues and it’s not like Mozilla didn’t have its fair share of controversies as well. In no way they are “better”, whatever this means.
Yeah, I peeked at your moderation history after posting, it’s OK, I see now this is the best I could have expected in answer. Good day to you!
Hes the kind of person that gets haughty and arrogant over warnings to be safe.
and the first person to start crying about “how did this happen, how could anybody let this happen, why didnt anyone stop this from happening!” the second they are personally fucked over by ignoring the repeated warnings they were given.
Perfect time to check out AdGuard Home. Trivial to install locally. Probably took less than 3 minutes to install and get it operating. Hardest part was updating my router config. (Goddamn Google WiFi!)
Then you can focus on getting a better browser. Support libre software and check out LibreWolf.
people use edge? it downloads itself onto your computer without permission.
At work. Corporate web based software doesn’t always play nice in firefox.
yea, our comp uses only chrome or Microsoft outlook. even my old state Uni used outlook.
It integrates very well with your M365 you need at work, and it saves a ton of time when people can use SSO to basically get everything up and running immediately on a new laptop. Including bookmarks and passwords.
By default I install unblock on any user machine I touch because it’s equal parts user experience and security.
O365 never saved anyone any time ever. But it’s the one solution dumb-fuck IT managers know of and think they understand so that’s what everyone’s going with.
If you think SSO and easy profile migration doesn’t save time, there’s simply no point in discussing it with you. I don’t like MS and their near monopoly position as a company much either. But that doesn’t mean every product they make is utter trash for every situation.
There are undoubtedly other solutions but to pretend every one is too dumb to use them shows how little actual experience working in a variety of companies is.
Back in the nineties you might have had Novell NetWare or just plain old LDAP instead of AD, but unlike those competitors AD kept working and offered upgrade trajectories. And it offered decent integration with a decent mailserver (that ofcourse sucked to set up securely for outside access), and that mailserver was fantastic versus the utterly terror that was Domino combined with Notes. I don’t like MS for basically forcing you to go to their cloud now, but pretending it’s a bad product through and through on a functional level is just being willingly blind.
That’s the defeatist attitude of a true MCSE scholar.
And your arguments have the strength of the hobbyist with the homelab he’s constantly having to reinstall, not understanding why companies are so stupid to not do the same thing as him.
Funny that you mention it. Not a single reinstall since I switched my homelab to nixOS. That, and using Tailscale has made hosting your own stuff easier than ever. Microsoft and Google environments are just gross, bloated and dependant on the amateurs who still work for those graveyard companies. I spent close to 20 years working professionally on that crap and won’t touch it anymore. Sorry if you’re still stuck in the past.
All the people who bluster and huff about Microsoft’s stranglehold on enterprise, education, government, etc all absolutely fail to grasp how utterly manageable Windows specifically (and MS products in general) is/are. If you’re familiar with Group Policy, you know; if you’re not, your really, really dont. A moderately competent Windows admin with a single Windows Server can make ten thousand Windows workstations work seamlessley in fifty countries, twenty data protection doctrines and ten languages with hundreds of customisations, tweaks, automations and deployments tailored to each combination of device/user/location, if that’s what they need. I wish that was the case with any FOSS OS, but it absolutely isn’t and even MacOS and ChromeOS don’t come even vaugley close.
This is understandable, and also can see why FOSS would struggle, since a big part of the value is keeping the operators of the machines from doing the things they want or need to do. This is anathema to general FOSS thinking, to keep the user from doing things they would generally be empowered to do.
Which I can see as being great for the admins, but it is often maddening to be a user under that regime. For example, “officially” I must use the corporate load for my work, and it’s super locked down. Problem being is the lock down makes my job effectively impossible (unable to run arbitrarily new binaries, unable to connect to services without a proper certificate, unable to add my own certificates, must get all binaries and service certificates from IT who takes 2-3 weeks to turnaround a signature). So you have a few departments resorting to that naughtiest of naughty words “Shadow IT”, always looking for end-runs around the corp policy that explicitly blocks software development work because they wouldn’t be able to discern that from malware.
Ours also shot us in the head, by forcing automatic updates off (because they know better how to deploy patches than Micrsoft I guess) and then there’s a ransomware attack that cripples things because they didn’t realize they failed to apply security updates for two years on most systems. Fortunately enough people had been manually updating to keep things going.
You’re not wrong about it being easy to set up and use, but the reason it’s still the defacto is because of its earlier monopoly. Now, they are slowly killing what made it the best Enterprise option either by its greedy licensing schemes hiding things you used to use behind new and additional licensing or breaking them with untested patches that go straight from dev to production.
Firefox also has SSO integration with M365! Last I tested it it was less clean than Microsoft’s but it does exist and work the last time I used it
Edit: just tested on a fresh install of Firefox and it worked perfectly. Checked the checkbox under Settings>Privacy and Security for “Allow Windows single sign-in for Microsoft, work, and school accounts” then navigated to my account.microsoft.com and it immediately signed me in (and appeared to be faster than on Edge‽)
It didn’t for me on Linux :^)
I use it on my laptop because it doesn’t nuke my laptop’s battery like all other browsers. So it’s a bit of a shame.
Honestly, it’s pretty easy to dunk on edge. But it’s based on the same chromium browser. They have excellent customer support. I have in the past submitted bug reports and they have followed up. Until now, they had pretty good privacy and options in their settings. With this v2 / v3 situation, I will have to reassess all that.
Right, you don’t need extensions, because you don’t need customization, because what you need is what we the corp say you need.
I think Web as it exists is a failed branch of evolution.
A networked (solved) hypertext (solved) document (solved) system - yes. A networked hypertext system with one or two unbelievably complex clients, where only enormous corps have enough resources to change something, - no. One can add steps - E2E encryption, dynamic services, scripts, all not requiring a monolithic piece of nonsense.
BTW, those hating Flash, I hope, do realize that its proper, paradigm-abiding replacement would be a FOSS plugin with similar goal, not what we have.
I feel similarly. Javascript was made to add some functionality to documents and now we’re basically running Doom in a word professor. I don’t know what a better system would look like, but I’d draw a line between document-type pages and pages that you want to do more on.
For flash I think you’re describing Ruffle
No, Ruffle is an alternative interpreter. I mean an alternative, FOSS, technology.
Nooo, it is browser on my workplace! How should I work efficiently without uBlock!?!?
Tell IT and your boss how your productivity tanked since edge disabled uBlock.
🤭yea, and what are we gonna do against it?
We manage everything with azure group policies (therefore use all microsoft). we don’t want an extra system to manage the browser of the employees. Maybe corporations are save from that just a while longer than private user 🤔
Intune can manage Firefox add-ons btw, no need to use any extra systems.
Of course, but extra work is required for third party browsers vs just using windows built in browser designed to be managed using entraID / intune.
Companies don’t like to pay extra.
It’s no different than controlling add-ons via GPO like we did in the old days of on-prem. No extra cost associated.
Tell that to oir IT partner that we outsourced our IT to…
Your outsourced IT provider charges for simple configuration changes? That’s a yikes from me. I worked in MSPs for years and those sort of changes were always covered in the standard contract.
You got me there 🤭I don’t see in exact contract with the provider, I only worked with them on some projects (like enterprise wifi via TLS)
But the one in charge of decision making depending IT is fan of the MS ecosystem.
Personally I work with friends to offer workplace in the cloud in the future, like having a complete OS within a browser tab.
Click on all the ads and install all the malware. That will teach them.
This might actually reverse firefox’s decline in userbase at least in the business world. Any shop that already has multi-OS management could probably insta-switch to firefox, and i’m sure that MS locked-in places could too given enough of a push by IT.
I saw one guy from my it team use a browser without adblock. Please send help
So, unironically, I do plan to request Firefox with uBlock Origin as a reasonable accomodation for my ADHD if I’m not able to use it at a job in the future. Banner ads are genuinely distracting and I have a real disability that makes them worse for me.
Less browsing of news articles?
I work in research and development, I have to constantly search the web for stuff
My work insists on using it too. Fuck knows why, maybe it’s a security thing? And my personal laptop is constantly nagging me to use edge - it could be the best browser ever and I would still avoid it just because of the pushiness.
It’s a good Chromium based Windows native browser that has integration with your Entra ID account so all your bookmarks / history is automatically synced and users have seamless experience when switching devices. No longer seeing tickets like ″My bookmarks are gone after I reinstalled my PC″ is enough to consider Edge as your company main browser. And the fact that it is part of OS, you do not need to worry about install and patching.
I prefer Firefox, but from Chromium browsers Edge is really good, you cannot expect companies to suggest something like Vivaldi.
This is for companies being in M365 ecosystem. If you are in Google then I suppose Chrome would make more sense.
Yeah, that’s fair, I thought it would probably be something like that. TBF it’s work, they’re paying me, I’ll use whatever they choose. I won’t have it on my own computer though just because of Microsoft’s hard sell
Exactly that
The new manifest v3 version is actually not that bad, though not nearly as good as normal ublock.
❤️
What’s Edge?
You don’t Edge?
Mine Linux don’t have it
Let me help you:
flatpak install flathub com.microsoft.Edge
Why would you do this to him
Because the best sort of shit post is one that’s also informative!
The thing you use once to download firefox, and then never again.
They get you really close but stop just before finishing.
🥵
The browser you use to download Firefox
Huh? Just type
winget install Mozilla.Firefoxinto PowerShell / cmd.a chromium skin
Microsoft is a spineless removed.
Why is it that when I see removed, it’s always from lemmy.ml, is that the only instance with the filter enabled
It’s the biggest one still federated with .world with that filter.
How would lemmy.ml being federated with lemmy.world affect how a user on sopuli.xyz sees content posted by a lemmy.ml account?
It’s more that .ml is the biggest instance with that filter that will show up on .world, the biggest instance overall. So statistically, unless they are specifically looking at instances with automatic slur post filtering, this is the situation they will notice it in. They aren’t seeing the content differently, the removed is happening at the post so it’s the same experience for everybody.
Removed? What could the comment possibly say in this context that would warrant removal?
God, .ml manages to be the worst parts of both shitlib civility bullshit and tankie bullshit.
Yeah, if you didn’t see that writing on the wall you need your eyes testing.
No Chrome browser will be maintained to keep using Manifest V2.
Use Firefox.
Mozilla sucks as well
We’re truly doomed