from riot@slrpnk.net to technology@lemmy.world on 08 May 14:07
https://slrpnk.net/post/21883280
An AI avatar made to look and sound like the likeness of a man who was killed in a road rage incident addressed the court and the man who killed him: “To Gabriel Horcasitas, the man who shot me, it is a shame we encountered each other that day in those circumstances,” the AI avatar of Christopher Pelkey said. “In another life we probably could have been friends. I believe in forgiveness and a God who forgives. I still do.”
It was the first time the AI avatar of a victim—in this case, a dead man—has ever addressed a court, and it raises many questions about the use of this type of technology in future court proceedings.
The avatar was made by Pelkey’s sister, Stacey Wales. Wales tells 404 Media that her husband, Pelkey’s brother-in-law, recoiled when she told him about the idea. “He told me, ‘Stacey, you’re asking a lot.’”
threaded - newest
This isn’t a message from the victim. This is a message from his sister using his image as a way to increase the impact of her statement in court.
This is a bad thing, this is manipulating the court with a false and confusing message.
The worse is everybody knows, including the judge, but they still chose to accept it.
Reading a bit more, during the sentencing phase in that state people making victim impact statements can choose their format for expression, and it’s entirely allowed to make statements about what other people would say. So the judge didn’t actually have grounds to deny it.
No jury during that phase, so it’s just the judge listening to free form requests in both directions.
It’s gross, but the rules very much allow the sister to make a statement about what she believes her brother would have wanted to say, in whatever format she wanted.
Hot take: victim impact statements shouldn’t be allowed. They are appeals to emotion.
I feel like I could be persuaded either way, but I lean towards allowing them during sentencing.
I don’t think “it’s an appeal to emotion” is a compelling argument in that context because it’s no longer about establishing truth like the trial is, but about determining punishment and restitution.
Justice isn’t just about the offender or society, it’s also indelibly tied to the victim. Giving them a voice for how they, as the wronged party, would see justice served seems important for it’s role in providing justice, not just the rote application of law.
Obviously you can’t just have the victim decide, but the judges entire job is to ensure fairness, often in the face of strong feelings and contentious circumstances.
Legitimately interested to hear why your opinion is what it is in more detail.
In terms of restitution, sure, the victim should have input. But in cases like imprisonment, I don’t see why the victim should have input into the length of a sentence, for example. If the offender is a danger to the public, they should remain in prison until such time that they are not. Emotional appeals should not factor into that determination.
I’d argue that emotions are a legitimate factor to consider in sentencing.
It’s a bit more obvious with living victims of non-homicide crimes, but the emotional impact of crime is itself a cost borne by society. A victim of a romance scam having trouble trusting again, a victim of a shooting having PTSD with episodes triggered by loud noises, a victim of sexual assault dealing with anxiety or depression after, etc.
It’s a legitimate position to say that punishment shouldn’t be a goal of criminal sentencing (focusing instead of deterrence and rehabilitation), or that punishment should be some sort of goal based entirely on the criminal’s state of mind and not the factors out of their own control, but I’d disagree. The emotional aftermath of a crime is part of the crime, and although there’s some unpredictable variance involved, we already tolerate that in other contexts, like punishing a successful murder more than an attempted murder.
Sure, but that’s just vengeance.
I’m pretty sure @booly@sh.itjust.works was meaning the exact opposite, that it’s more about educating perpetrators than taking vengeance or merely dishing out old-fashioned justice on them.
It’s a little weird that they get to speak for the dead like that
I’d really like to hope that this is a one off boomer brained judge and the precedent set is this was as stupid an idea as it gets, but every time I think shot can’t get dumber…
Boomer here. Don’t assume we all think the same. Determining behavior from age brackets is about as effective as doing it based on Chinese astrology (but I’m a Monkey so I would say that, wouldn’t I?)
The judge’s problem is being a nitwit, not what year they were born in.
OK boomer. (LOL)
Seems like a great way to provide the defendant with a great reason to appeal
Yeah a fiction has no place in a courtroom. If we can upload maybe we can revisit but this is just stupid.
Just to be clear, they were fully transparent about it:
However, I think the following is somewhat misleading:
I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. It seems that the motivation was genuine compassion from the victim’s family, and a desire to honestly represent victim to the best of their ability. But ultimately, it’s still the victim’s sister’s impact statement, not his.
Here’s what the judge had to say:
I am concerned that it could set a precedent for misuse, though. The whole thing seems like very grey to me. I’d suggest everyone read the whole article before passing judgement.
Your emotions don’t always line up with “what you know” this is why evidence rules exist in court. Humans don’t work that way. This is why there can be mistrials if specific kinds of evidence is revealed to the jury that shouldn’t have been shown.
Digital reenactments shouldn’t be allowed, even with disclaimers to the court. It is fiction and has no place here.
Sure, but not for victim impact statements. Hearsay, speculation, etc. have always been fair game for victim impact statements, and victim statements aren’t even under oath. Plus the other side isn’t allowed to cross examine them. It’s not evidence, and it’s not “testimony” in a formal sense (because it’s not under oath or under penalty of perjury).
These, especially the second, cross the line imo. The judge acknowledges it’s AI but is acting like it isn’t, and same for the sister especially.
If gasping at video of real events is grounds for a mistrial, then so is fabricated statements intended to emotionally manipulate the court. It’s ludicrous that this was allowed and honestly is grounds to disbar the judge. If he allows AI nonsense like this, then his courtroom can not be relied upon for fair trials.
This is just weird uninformed nonsense.
The reason that outbursts, like gasping or crying, can cause a mistrial is because they can unfairly influence a jury and so the rules of evidence do not allow them. This isn’t part of trial, the jury has already reached a verdict.
Victim impact statements are not evidence and are not governed by the rules of evidence.
More nonsense.
If you were correct, and there were actual legal grounds to object to these statements then the defense attorney could have objected to them.
Here’s an actual attorney. From the article:
The victim impact statement isn’t evidence in the trial. The trial has already wrapped up. The impact statement is part of sentencing, when the court is deciding what an acceptable punishment would be. The guilty verdict has already been made, so the rules surrounding things like acceptable evidence are much more lenient.
The reason she wasn’t allowed to make a scene during the trial is because the defense can argue that her outburst is tainting the jury. It’s something the jury is being forced to witness, which hasn’t gone through the proper evidence admission process. So if she makes a scene, the defense can say that the defendant isn’t being given a fair trial because inadmissible evidence was shown to the jury, and move for a mistrial.
It sounds harsh, but the prosecutor told her to be stoic because they wanted the best chance of nailing the guy. If she threw their case out the window by loudly crying in the back of the courtroom, that wouldn’t be justice.
Victim statements to the court are always emotionally manipulative. It’s akin to playing a video of home movies of the deceased, and obviously the judge understands that it is a fictitious creation.
No, this is exactly why it shouldn’t be allowed. This isn’t akin to playing a video of home movies because this is a fake video of the victim. This is complete fiction and people thinking it’s the same thing is what makes it wrong.
It is like a home movie in that it is an attempt to humanize the victim. There is no evidence in a home movie, no relevant facts, just an idea of the person that’s gone. You’re right that one is a memory of something that happened while the other is a fabrication of something that might have happened, but they are both equally (ir)relevant and emotionally manipulative. Many jurisdictions do prohibit victim statements beyond a written or verbal testimony. Some countries and states require you to use a form and won’t admit statements that do not adhere to the form.
Also remember that this is for the judge, not a jury.
Agreed. Until we get full, 100% complete UIs like in Pantheon, this is just Photoshop and a voice synthesizer on crack (not literally, this is an analogy).
Wtaf… regardless of how well he was known by his family, this is the glorified version of a video resumé created by someone else, not the actual person – so it should be accepted as that: someone else’s testimony.
It’s not even a Reynolds’ beta-level simulation.
Why the judge accepted is beyond me.
Preface: This does not belong in a courtroom. These were not his words. These were words that someone else wrote, and then put into the mouth of a very realistic puppet of him.
This was a victim impact statement, which I think comes after sentencing. In that case, it wouldn't have had an impact on sentencing, but I still feel quite strongly that this kind of misrepresentation has no place in a court.
This was shown before the sentencing. The judge referenced it explicitly in their sentencing as a reason to apply leniency.
From a comment above:
Here’s what the judge had to say:
Oh right, I forgot about that. Then it's just wrong.
I think what’s interesting here is that the family was requesting the maximum sentence, yet they submitted the AI delivered impact statement which asked for compassion, if not leniency, in sentencing. That tells me they did their best to earnestly represent the victim, as it contradicted their stated desired outcome.
If they’d actually wanted a lenient sentence, they could have just asked for one.
Wow… This judge should be disbarred.
It says in the article that the judge gave the maximum sentence.
The sister who created the video gave a statement as herself asking for something different from what she believed her brother would have wanted, which she chose to express in this fashion.
I don’t think it was a good thing to do, but it’s worth noting that the judges statement is basically “that was a beautiful statement, and he seemed like a good man”, not an application of leniency.
Given that the victim is dead, they never should have even entertained the possibility for an impact statement.
If the sister has shit to say, that’s one thing. But this is a travesty.
Hearsay is allowed in sentencing statements, and Arizona allows those statements to be in a format of their choice.
It’s the phase of the process where the judge hears opinions on what he should sentence the culprit to, so none of it is evidence or treated as anything other than an emotive statement.
In this case, the sister made two statements: one in the form of a letter where she asked for the maximum sentence, and another in the form of this animation of her brother where she said that he wouldn’t want that and would ask for leniency.
It’s gross, but it’s not the miscarriage of justice that it seems like from first glance. It was accepted in the same way a poem titled “what my brother would say to you” would be.
Apparently the video was presented after the verdict was already issued. This video had no impact on the actual outcome of the trial, and was more of just a closing statement.
So the judge didn’t approve this a testimony, but just found it emotionally touching.
Only in usa. What an embarrassing circus.
When I saw a headline I thought “A real judge or an American one?”
AI should absolutely never be allowed in court. Defense is probably stoked about this because it’s obviously a mistrial. Judge should be reprimanded for allowing that shit
It was after the verdict of the trial. This was displayed during the sentencing hearing where family members get to state how the death affected them. It’s still fucked up, but to be clear it wasn’t used during the trial.
Sentencing is still part of the carriage of justice. Fake statements like this should not be allowed until after all verdicts and punishments are decided.
You didn’t read the article.
This isn’t grounds for a mistrial, the trial was already over. This happened during the sentencing phase. The defense didn’t object to the statements.
From the article:
It happened BEFORE sentencing
In the US criminal justice system, Sentencing happens after the Trial. A mistrial requires rules to be violated during the Trial.
Also, there were at least 3 people in that room that both have a Juris Doctor and know the Arizona Court Rules, one of them is representing the defendant. Not a single one of them had any objections about allowing this statement to be made.
This was not testimony. It was part of the victim impact statement and was scripted by his sister. AI was only used to recreate the voice and visage. I am usually a fan of 404 Media, but that should be explicitly stated.
The use of the word “testimony” is not entirely accurate in the sense that that term is used in court.
From NPR:
Emphasis mine.
Edited to remove utterly extraneous information that added absolutely nothing of value or clarity to the sentence. This is her husband, the victim was her brother. We already know her husband is the victims brother -in-law. That’s how that works.
Yeah, that’s a weird bit of writing. It’s completely unnecessary information that adds nothing to the sentence. I don’t know if it’s the case, but this is like a micro-aggression where the author felt the need to add more info about the man instead of the woman.
If anyone ever did this with my likeness after death, even with good intentions, i would haunt the fuck out of them.
You can create an AI avatar before your death that will haunt them on your behalf.
“Your honor, although the prosecution has indeed depicted my client as the pathetic soy virgin in exhibit A, meme 4, please watch this 7 episode TV drama mini series that the prosecution wrote and produced for this very case before making your judgement.”
Looks like I’ll have to pre write a testimony for if/when someone kills me and my sister wants to have AI talk for me.
“Hey fuck head who killed me, you’re a fucking pussy!
Ooooo look at me I used a (insert weapon ) like a little bitch
I’m gonna haunt your ass and focus the entirety of my spectral energy on making sure your dumbass life sucks in there.
Also, suck a dick dumb cunt, I’m poor, you got nothing but jail for being a useless little bitch baby.
Catch ya real soon, like reeeeeeeeaaaaaaal soon.”
I feel the defense should have insisted on having their own ai of jesus talk about forgiveness.
It’s my understanding the AI dead guy actually did talk about forgiveness
yeah even if he plead for leniency it does not matter. Its like admitting a diary written by someone else from his perspective. it just makes no sense and has nothing to do with anything.
Wow, this is super distasteful and manipulative.
www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/…/judicialBio.asp?…
It would be a shame if publicly known Todd Lang was reported over and over again for his bias.
www.azcourts.gov/azcjc <<<<<<
(The form is a pain)
This will end up causing the murderer to get out on appeal, I guarantee it.
Pretty fucked.
This is some really stupid bullshit… Clearly the sister is grieving, but they never should have allowed this to play in court. What a joke.
She probably received a lot of money from some AI firm aswell as all that was necessary to pull this off from a tech perspective. They want to make this a common thing and establish precedent
Her brother worked for the AI firm
Can’t have it both ways. If you understand this was fabricated AI then you did not “get to know him today”. The facts of the case were already self evident for guilt, but this needs to be a mistrial. We can not have a standard of fair justice when generated AI is treated like living breathing people.
Fuck NO!!
This is a clown show and the judge who let this travesty happen is an idiot.
I thought this was an onion…
If I were the defense and scummy, I’d reply with an equally disturbing AI avatar of the victim saying that he actually killed himself and that the road rage guy was innocent.
I mean, seems fair.
The judge should have had the sense to keep this shitty craft project out of the courtroom. Victim statements should also be banned as manipulative glurge.
From a different article quoting a former judge in the court:
I don’t like it, and it feels dirty to me, but since the law allows them to express basically whatever they want in whatever format they want during this phase, it doesn’t seem harmful in this case, just gross.
I actually think it’s a little more gross that the family was able to be that forthright and say that the victim would not want what they were asking for, and still ask for it.
I hope they win that appeal an get a new sentencing or a new trial even. That sounds like a horrible misuse of someone’s likeness. Even if my family used a direct quote from me I’d be PISSED if they recreated my face and voice without my permission.
They can’t appeal on this issue because the defense didn’t object to the statement and, therefore, did not preserve the issue for appeal.
I like AI, sort of. But this is ghoulish.
“gampa, did it hurt when you died?”
Omg I hate this so much fuck you
So you prefer CVS?
Please stop talking, please
Ha, genius. So true as well, this is the inevitable result of personalised ads. A video of your dead Grandmother popping up saying: “I sure did love big brand hazelnut chocolate. Celebrate my birthday tomorrow and buy a bar for you and the whole family.”
.
nope. nope nope nope! Fuck this. I wanna go back to 2002 with Cortana whispering in my ear about fleet chatter and being optimistic.
That’s not the world that unfurled though, and LLM’s are not AI.
This marketing hype regurgitation machine “learning” can all go eat shit. All of it. Soooo done with the simps saying “oh but this application of the tech totally justifies burning down forests and guzzling water and power and totally wasnt trained on stolen, socially prejudice datasets”
Fuck that noise and while we’re at it I’m entirely turned off by AAA media trends and current gen hardware too. Don’t @ me, fuck a smartphone I’ve got a DS.
This judge needs to be disbarred and have a forced mental evaluation.
The fuckin’ dude’s wife wrote the speech the AI read… I don’t care how much you know someone, putting words in their mouths like that feels wrong. And the fucking judge added a year to the sentence citing the power of the video.
Fucking absurd.
Yeah, this is super fucked up. I think that it would be powerful and completely reasonable to have the AI read actual words he wrote, like from old text messages, emails, or whatever. That is a legitimate way to bring someone to life—completely ethical if they wrote the material. This is a disgrace to justice and ridiculous.
I thought it was his sister who wrote the speech the AI read, but yeah, this whole thing feels wrong and gross.
This is basically “Weekend at Bernie’s”, using the likeness of a dead man as a puppet.
I find this nauseatingly disgusting and a disgrace that this was shown in a court of all places.
No, this man does not believe in forgiveness or a God because he’s dead. He never said this, somebody wrote this script and a computer just made a video off it with his likeness.
Fuck everything about this, this should be prohibited
Time to update my will.
“Hi, I’m Manifish_Destiny speaking to you from beyond the grave. I’m happy to say that even though I had some skepticism of AI avatars and even put something about that in my will, I just didn’t understand its potential to embody my true self. But now I do, so you can disregard all that. Come to think of it, you can disregard the rest of the will as well, I’ve got some radical new ideas…”
This is some perverse shit
This is precedent now. Wheeeeeeeee common law system.
No it’s not. Look at the court level in which it was shown.
Yeah this wasn’t ratio or even obiter, perhaps convention. Without looking deeper this was along the lines of an impact statement. Whilst it raises points for discussion its a far cry from precedent for the admission of evidence.
I found this interesting. The AI said it believes in forgiveness.
But the victim’s sister, who created the AI did it to try to get the maximum sentence for the defendant.
Yeah, a way to play both sides of pushing for a harsh sentence whole you use a puppet to drive empathy…
Should have been a slam dunk without the video.
it would have been about as respectful to use the corpse as a puppet and put up a show for the court with it.
Trial at Bernies? OK WERE DOING TRIAL AT BERNIES! This is going to be legend-wait for it…