The US will likely apply pressure, just like they are trying to force their death machines to be legalized on European roads. Apple already tried to pressure the union and failed, but the political climate has changed a bit since then, and while EU bureaucrats can be fierce, European leadership tends to be weak as fuck.
But yeah, chances are that this change won't apply to the EU. :)
The answer is no. It's not phrased like that. But it's all about ensuring free competition in digital markets. The sole purpose of Google's move here is to hinder competition in their own digital market, and to keep control over it.
So the law does not have a paragraph stating that "unsigned software must be allowed", but it has a bunch of other paragraphs that can be used to strike down on monopolistic behaviour.
Google are aware of the law, and will try to find a loophole by designing a system that they believe technically complies with it. Then someone will sue them, it will end up in the European court, and the European court will in all likelyhood tell Google to get fucked.
It seems american tech companies think they can get away with anything because that's how it works in the US. We are repeatedly seeing that this is not how it works in Europe: the Court of Justice tends to care deeply about the intention of the law, as well as the perceived consequences of their rulings. And they don't seem to care all that much about American capitalists.
But to answer your question very simply: No, it doesn't. But thankfully that doesn't matter at all.
I feel like there should independent signing authorities that the major platforms honor. But that’s its own can of worms. Who runs them, is it the government? A non-profit? How do we prevent corruption of that entity, etc.
And yeah, the tech companies have raced ahead of comprehension. At least the comprehension that reasonable and good lawmakers have. At the same time, it’s increasingly looking like the terrible people in power know just how far ahead tech is. (Thiel)
cabbage@piefed.social
on 27 Aug 05:50
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You can't make laws for every single possible future reality. We need courts that uphold laws even when billionaires try to dodge them using shady techniques. The problem is that big tech often gets away with murder because they can afford expensive lawyers. Especially in the US laws are essentially meaningless for the rich. This is not so much the case in Europe.
I have heard some positive signals from the European Court of Justice that they are taking the challenge from big tech seriously and that they are going the extra miles to understand these issues. If you're particularly interested, many judges talk about this in the Borderlines podcast series by Berkley law. But it gets really dry really fast haha.
I don't believe in signing authorities. It's not effective - Google can't even keep malware off the play store - and it's an authoritarian move. Hell, most apps in the play store spy on their users, profiling usage to sell to advertisers along with ID codes that makes it possible to combine data between apps and build detailed profiles of individuals. The problem is not apps that are not signed - the problem is the whole economy of apps that work as Google intend them to.
Also, it's a basic question of rights. It's my phone, I bought the hardware, I own it, I install whatever the fuck I want on it.
Why exactly do we need signing authorities? Software isn’t zero trust like websites. You do need to trust the developer - even a legitimate one. Signing apps with verified developer keys will only hurt small independent developers, open source projects and freedom enabling stuff like user patching.
It only works to solidify monopolies and doesn’t protect you against shit.
Sure, nothing is perfect, but EU legislation has generally been quite good, from the GDPR to the DMA.
The challenges are more related to enforcement - rules on the book are worth nothing if we don't force companies to live by them. In this respect we've seen some pretty sloppy behaviour, but also some victories. It's not a one-sided story.
Another challenge is of course to keep passing good laws, and to avoid terrible ones. Chat control needs to be stopped. Stopping it is a matter of convincing national governments it's a bad idea, as well as members of the European Parliament - everyone should be writing their representatives NOW. But that's another issue entirely. :)
WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 21:38
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don’t iphones delete your sideloaded apps against your will and along with your data, if you don’t use the ibstaller tool at once every week?
if so that’s useless for anybody other than developers themselves who otherwise don’t even want to use their own app.
cabbage@piefed.social
on 26 Aug 21:45
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I have no idea as I don't follow apple much, but I am aware that they are constantly trying to find ways to avoid complying with EU law, and that it is often rapidly struck down.
What you're describing here is not a failure of the law, but Apple trying real hard to find creative ways not to comply with it. To me it only shows that they are desperate, and that EU law is in fact getting to them.
If they keep at it it'll eventually end up in court, the case will take a couple of years, and they'll be slammed with a fine and asked to get their shit together.
trainden@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 28 Aug 09:19
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don’t iphones delete your sideloaded apps against your will and along with your data, if you don’t use the ibstaller tool at once every week?
No? I have an iPhone in the EU and have several sideloaded apps. All still work and have all the data even after not using them for a while.
Not unabated. They are stuck trying to find new loopholes to not comply, which are then struck down. It's a cat and mouse game, and they think they can get away with it because they have the most expensive lawyers.
Again, enforcement is the challenge, not the laws themselves.
I’ve seen no such thing but maybe I’m just not paying close enough attention. They still have the same bullshit where third party stores still need to pay them 27%, and they still require Apple’s approval, which is almost nothing gained.
Everything takes a long time, but things are happening. If you search for the terms "fine apple EU" or "fine apple EU" in your search engine of choice you'll see there's quite a lot going on.
I have some personal friends who are working with this stuff for the European Commission. It basically takes a long time to build a case against tech giants, and then once the Commission fines them these fines will be appealed in the EU court system, which will take even more years to process.
It's annoying that there's not a magic switch to flick to make Google and Apple comply with EU law, but that's the world we live in. If the EU just banned Google and/or Apple it would probably backlash tremendously (never mind that I doubt they have the authority to do so even if they wanted), so they have to move a bit slowly. :)
azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 15:35
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The EU is currently deepthroating Trump so hard that it’s completely out of breath and all our clothes are ruined.
With how volatile Trump is this could change literally anyday, but with the current political equilibrium all google would have to do is gift trump a shiny golden thing so he makes a threatening remark about gas exports and the EU would go “uwu yes master right away master, do you want to fuck my gaping asshole while you’re at it?”.
sk1nnym1ke@piefed.social
on 26 Aug 14:02
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I don't like how tech is evolving...
mushroommunk@lemmy.today
on 26 Aug 14:09
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Prove_your_argument@piefed.social
on 26 Aug 16:21
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It was always intended to be this way.
The beginning was pre-enshittification. We're going from the good ole' days to the future, and the future sure as shit aint for you unless you're in the club... and you aint, none of us are.
Every day that passes I use my T480 more and more, it will die with me
Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 28 Aug 07:38
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I hardly believe foss faithful people would ever carry a laptop, but there is a chance they will choose a foss-respecting phone (not that there are many options)
Vanilla_PuddinFudge@infosec.pub
on 28 Aug 08:52
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I hardly believe foss faithful people would ever carry a laptop
The whole thinkpad obsession in the linux/foss community isn’t visible to you?
Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 28 Aug 09:59
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Carrying a laptop like it was a Steam Deck is pretty hard, nevermind like it was a phone, unless it’s like a Vaio or something.
Yes. Only in the EU and only since 2024 when Apple was forced to do it by new laws. It’s reasonable to assume Google would be subject to the same laws.
If you live outside if the EU, it’s “no sideload for you!” There are computer programs that can do sideloading to iPhones, but they have limitations, like having to refresh the sideloaded apps every seven days.
Arcane2077@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 06:06
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Wholly incorrect. You’re allowed to sideload up to 3 apps (or 10 appIDs, whichever comes first) without being a developer, and that arbitrary restriction is removed if you pay for a dev license, regardless of which part of the world you’re in.
In the EU you’re allowed to install third party app stores (still have to be notarized by Apple) which isn’t sideloading
The limitations depend on which program you’re using - there’s more than one - which is why I only gave a simple example. And if you have to pay for a function that is otherwise free to many others, that’s a limitation.
Side loading is installing an app from anywhere but the official store. So by definition “third party” is side loading. Whether it’s another store or authorised is irrelevant.
Arcane2077@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 09:42
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The limitations depend on which program you’re using - there’s more than one - which is why I only gave a simple example.
No it doesn’t. It’s in all the documentation, official and otherwise
Side loading is installing an app from anywhere but the official store. So by definition “third party” is side loading. Whether it’s another store or authorised is irrelevant.
You can’t just make up a definition, believe it, and then share it like it’s true. We’re going by the legal definition as that’s the only one that matters.
Apple only allows up to 3 apps or 10 appIDs to be sideloaded, wherever you are in the world. Period.
Youre not getting it. The developers of the tools can and do impose their own additional limitations. They’re still limitations of the programs which is what we were taking about.
And it doesn’t matter what limitations Apple imposes in its walled garden, their phones can still be jail broken and side loaded in the more traditional way.
The concept of sideloading is a general term that applies to multiple platforms, not something Apple owns or gets to dictate. No one is making up anything here.
Sideloading is the practice of installing mobile apps on a device that are not from the official app stores
Etc.
If your argument requires cherry picking, ignoring key points, and baseless ad homenims, it’s not a good point.
Arcane2077@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 15:12
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I said Apple allows sideloading, you tried to correct me, and then changed your argument when you realized you were wrong. It’s just you not getting it.
Your “tools” that bypass the limitations set by apple wouldn’t even be relevant if they were real since you’re arguing with the factual statement that Apple allows you to sideload your apps, regardless of where you are in the world.
P.S. Even your links prove that you’re wrong about sideloading. Unless you’re now trying to argue there’s nothing official about governmentally mandated Apple-certified App Stores, in which case… just walk
Apple officially allows sideloading of apps on iPhones only for users based in the European Union due to the EU Digital Markets Act (DMA) which mandates this starting in 2024. For users outside the EU, Apple does not officially allow sideloading.
If Apple officially allows sideloading outside of the EU, please show us the specific pages where Apple states you can sideload any app and the steps to do it? If you’re right, I’ll happily spin on a dime and support you and admit my mea culpa. I have no horse in this race, and I’ll be happy to learn something new. People think admitting they’re wrong is a weakness, when it’s actually a strength.
I said Apple allows sideloading, you tried to correct me…
I didn’t try to correct you because nothing you wrote was wrong. All I did was try to add information to clarify to other readers what “somewhat” actually means so they have an idea what they might be getting into if they wanted to do it. You know, provide simple helpful extra information, so people don’t waste their time trying to find a feature they don’t have if they live outside the EU for example. You even agreed that there are limitations, and that people would have to fork out money to overcome some of them.
But if someone correcting you seems to upset to the point where you come out swinging a baseball bat over a trivial matter, maybe the internet isn’t the place for you just now.
… then changed your argument when you realized you were wrong
I have no idea what you’re referring to here. So being vague again weakens your argument.
Your “tools” that bypass the limitations set by apple wouldn’t even be relevant if they were real…
You seem to be stuck on this idea of Apple setting limitations. I said from the start there were limitations.
Even your links prove that you’re wrong about sideloading…
Again, you didn’t cite anything specific here in what I linked to. The definitions clearly supported that I wasn’t making anything up as you claimed. And all you did was repeat your claim which I’ve already addressed. You didn’t respond to my actual counterpoint or add any additional information. So again, this was vague and pointless.
Ok, this is getting ridiculous. You keep stating incorrect information, you’re relying on cherry picking, you’ve stooped to using yet another ad hominin weakening you argument, and you’re getting repetitive and vaguer with each new comment.
I’ve posted plenty of links to show the reality and limitations I originally mentioned, so people can read them and make up there own minds.
Arcane2077@sh.itjust.works
on 28 Aug 05:11
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If sideloading wasn’t allowed, there would be no apps on the App Store
If you read the links your AI provided you, you’d see they’re all confirming what I said. All of them.
Generally, common knowledge doesn’t need to be cited, so here:
The fact is, and will always be, that Apple allows sideloading on all iphones in all regions, and their limits apply even in the EU. I’m sorry if you feel like that’s a personal attack.
And to finally, to address your attempt at changing subject (because you stopped being vague and finally admitted it), Jailbreaking is not within Apples rules (the hint is in the name). Hope this helps!
Man, did you even read the originally posted article? Did you understand it? Do you even know what sort of sideloading everyone is talking about here? Because it’s sure as hell is not app development deployment. Google isn’t going to ban that! And users aren’t going to fire up Xcode, unpack an app IPA binary, modify the bundle configuration, and sign it using their ID so it’ll run on their phone for just seven days. That takes developer-level skill which you said wasn’t necessary. Or they could instead use one of the tools I listed, but you didn’t even think they were real.
And none of the pages you linked to refer to “sideloading” except to say people can do it in the EU. Again, proving my point.
Plus I’ve already covered your whole argument here in my last comment. Did you read this link? If you did, you would have realized your argument was irrelevant and pointless.
Also, you should probably learn what Ad Homenim is…
It appears you don’t understand what an ad homenim is, because I laid it out for you. When you say someone is making something up or something isn’t real, rather than actually addressing the merits of their arguments, that’s text book ad hominem.
Jailbreaking is not within Apples rules (the hint is in the name)
I never said it was. In fact, my first comment stated “…there are computer programs…,” and I’ve mentioned “tools” generally. Why would those phrases not include jail breaking programs and tools?
And of course it’s not allowed by Apple. That was my point. If you live outside the EU and you want to sideload apps generally as a user, you have to use a tool like those I listed, which obviously includes the option of jail breaking.
So you’re just reinforcing my point for me, like you’ve done multiple times already.
Yet again, you ignored nearly all of my key points, you added more misinformation and vagueness, you don’t appear to understand what it is we’re actually talking about, and you don’t understand the skill level or tools required for what you’re suggesting. So like I’ve mentioned, this could be a great learning experience for you with a bit of self-respect, but instead you prefer to keep highlighting your ignorance and misunderstanding. You might be fine with that despite the obvious downsides, in which case more power to you.
“This ad company restricting anything you can load is better than iOS” is decently a thing you can say hahahaha
NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
on 26 Aug 14:55
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I mean, there is still UI/UX, app store policies, and general cost/options.
This definitely makes Android a lot less appealing. But it is also questionable to act like the biggest reason to use android was sideloading apps since the vast majority of users don’t even know that is an option (and probably shouldn’t since they have no understanding of how to vet them). Especially since Apple isn’t any better (?).
just_an_average_joe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Aug 16:06
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Comrade, the ignorance of the masses should not dilute our anger
NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
on 26 Aug 16:58
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So… “the ignorance of the masses” should be combatted by willful ignorance and nonsense that falls apart the moment anyone looks at it?
Get angry. I sure am. Look for alternatives. Graphene sure ain’t it but I hope it will be in the next four or five years. But this is something google are willing to futz with for a reason: The vast majority of users don’t care about it and even with the changes it isn’t significantly worse than the competition.
Yet everywhere I see “Well, I guess I have to buy Apple now” which is just… buy it if you want to but don’t pretend this shit is why.
Ui/ux is honestly worse on android compared to something like ios. The playstore is honestly stuffed with ads and seems to be actively regressing in ux (the update apps menu is hidden behind like 3 layers of dialogues). Cost wise a used iPhone is probably a better deal than a cheap new android phone.
I used android primarily because I could install apps Apple basically doesn’t care about (and after the 5th time gba4ios broke).
Maybe it’s because I’m used to android, but iOS feels user hostile in ways that android never has been, especially when it comes to storage management and pushing iCloud subscriptions.
Well android phones dont have removable sd card slots anymore, the only way to transfer files is over the weird protocol that’s slower than directly writing to disk, if you use pixel or Samsung youre already inundated with annoying ads. The ecosystem is pretty awful now. Installing a custom rom is a good idea, but depending youre phone model it could be a step down and if your on any Samsung phone with knox it basically irreparably damages some attestation fuse. Apple ain’t much better. I might try a Linux phone next.
There is a lot wrong with android, but it’s super easy to transfer files over USB or just download them. I use Nextcloud personally. Then you can manipulate them with your choice of file manager.
I got a new phone recently, Samsung with Knox, the worst part about it so far compared to other Android has been how it is quick to kill background apps, and the UI is honestly disorienting compared to how I’m used to doing things. I haven’t been shown ads yet, but I did go ahead and disable all the Samsung apps I could find. This includes not being able to control how quickly it kills background apps, but it’s the lesser of two evils.
I’m not sure what Knox attestation is, but it sounds really unfortunate, and I want to search it now. I agree the phones of today are awful and the only reason I got this one was the price.
Fedditor385@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 16:55
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Unfortunately, that is 0.1% of their global market that is affected. So, they don’t really have much to lose.
Whatever things made people get into Android some 20 years ago are no longer relevant to the majority of people.
The biggest benefit will remain the apps. People love apps. In that regard, their only competition is Apple. It’s why no one can make a new phone OS.
The other reason is cost. If you want a cheap device, Apple has no such thing. There are hundreds of Android devices you can buy for a couple hundred dollars.
For those who buy Samsung flagships for more than an iPhone, well those people I can’t explain.
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 00:10
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I can see apps becoming less important over time. PWAs were basically what Apple originally planed for the smartphone anyway and now they are capable of damn near anything you would want an app to do. No store to rely on. No updates to install. No storage space being eaten into. The browser engine functions as a layer of abstraction between the scary untrusted app and your own OS. It’s kinda perfect.
By Linux I mean “FOSS” phone. Android is based on Linux, but it is also loaded with spyware out of the box. If you’d asked me 18 years ago whether there would be a viable FOSS phone by now, I would’ve thought yes. But, postmarketOS still advertises itself as “not ready yet” and Ubuntu Touch is still pretty niche.
There was a viable Linux phone 15 years ago: Nokia N900. Microsoft took care of that when they bought Nokia. At least Windows phone was a resounding success…
Sure glad I de-googled with GrapheneOS that ironically runs on Pixel phones.
mushroommunk@lemmy.today
on 26 Aug 14:09
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I’ve been hemming and hawing. Switched to Linux pretty much full time for my PC, this will push me 100% into FOSS phone. Over half my apps I use would get blocked
Consider many apps are just webpages. You can go to the website directly from a browser and everything is happy.
Obviously won’t solve everything, but that covers most apps right there.
mushroommunk@lemmy.today
on 26 Aug 15:22
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That’s yet another trend that’s made me less and less interested in things. You’re not wrong though and will likely be my fall back
Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Aug 17:43
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A lot of people cry about banking apps not working on phones that have been rooted/degoogled/whatever. But seriously, just use their website. The app is usually just a front end for the site anyway.
Sure I can use my bank’s website (and it’s a shit experience) but they still want me to have their own app for authentication… Don’t even offer anything else at this point.
Now that the Pixel 10 is out, the Pixel 9 prices are falling. If you’re going to load GrapheneOS, you need to make sure you get a phone that has an unlocked bootloader, which is different than being carrier unlocked. Any phone that was initially sold through a carrier like Verizon or ATT will have a locked bootloader, as the carriers don’t like people messing with the phone software to unlock features that they may charge for (e.g. hotspot).
Well then, you’re already all set. Google edition phones all have unlocked bootloaders. I’m currently running a Pixel 6 Pro with GrapheneOS. It’s super easy to install and use, even if you’ve never messed with your phone before. I’ve been looking to potentially upgrade to a newer phone, because mine is a few generations old and Graphene doesn’t support phones forever, though they do for quite a while. An unlocked Pixel 9 Pro is around $550-650 right now, but I’ll probably wait another 6 months, as the prices will probably fall another $100-$200 in that time frame.
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
on 27 Aug 11:18
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Be careful. I’ve read reports of at least two Pixel 6a devices bursting into flames.
My mom has a Pixel 7 we are replacing because it gets incredibly hot for no apparent reason.
Google has actually released a software update to try to prevent the modem battery issue and are replacing the battery in affected models for free. Rare easy win from a megacorp
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
on 27 Aug 17:37
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Even after the software update a battery caught fire.
_cryptagion@anarchist.nexus
on 26 Aug 15:40
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this is doubtless going to hurt whatever third party app store it is that you use anyway. if the only places sideloaded apps are available on, the only options are that custom roms like graphene become more popular, or apps that refuse to be put on Google will dry up.
which do you feel is more likely?
cupcakezealot@piefed.blahaj.zone
on 26 Aug 14:09
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so basically i have to send in my id to google just to sideload a test apk i made in flutter to my own phone to test it out?
Mjpasta710@midwest.social
on 26 Aug 14:53
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Ad it’s just another data point for corporations and governments to be able to tie all your tech activities to your real identity. Great for surveillance!
WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 21:48
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and if it will work like the play store, you will need to upload an apk* and download the signed version, so it’s not even immediately obvious if they changed anything.
* not really an apk but an intermediate build product
Cheradenine@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 14:13
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Meanwhile back at the ranch
Malware-ridden apps made it into Google’s Play Store, scored 19 million downloads
Right, only install “verified” from Google Play, but that is where malware is, other 3rd party app stores like F-Droid, that really verify apps are at risk of getting killed by Google
Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 14:24
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This is very obviously step one in a plan to kill apps like alternative YouTube clients that block ads, just like the Manifest V3 rollout was intended to kill ad blockers in Chrome. Once they have everyone using this verification system, then they can just arbitrarily deverify anything that contravenes whatever new acceptable usage policy they just made up.
The opensource apps like Newpipe, SmartTube, termux and many others are the “malware”, not the ones with binary blobs on PlayStore that fork VLC, Newpipe and many opensource apps illegally, supposedly “verified” but don’t follow opensource license like GPL, creating fake clones with ads and (real) malware.
There’s plenty DIY projects around the net with various raspberry models. You just need some knowledge, preferably access to a 3D printer, an soldering iron, some tools and other bits and bobs. It’s definetly doable, but I can understand if someone prefers to throw some money on the table and get one pre-built.
themadcodger@kbin.earth
on 26 Aug 16:33
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I'll probably go with one of the other roms on an older phone or possibly one of the Linux phones. It won't be exactly what I want, but it'll be better than their walled garden bullshit. That's precisely why I left Apple way back when.
Vanilla_PuddinFudge@infosec.pub
on 26 Aug 19:30
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Or we just… ignore them?
LineageOS and GrapheneOS could just be like “well, go on, then.”
There’s a market for everything and the FOSS and maker markets would eat up an open Android phone, even if the only apps you could install were community-created.
Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org
on 26 Aug 23:28
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Those would be great if they worked on cheap handsets. TracFone users should have better security too
Vanilla_PuddinFudge@infosec.pub
on 26 Aug 19:27
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Dumbphone with tethering
A mini laptop/cyberdeck
A modern mp3 player
A small, modern point and click camera
hey gramps, where’d you get that gear, 2007?
Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org
on 26 Aug 22:58
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It's not a cyberdeck unless I have trodes and a halo, chummer. But some kind of netbook would be great.
_cryptagion@anarchist.nexus
on 26 Aug 15:35
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of course it is. apple has been doing it from the very beginning. now android gets the same walled garden.
sylver_dragon@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 16:01
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The US Government hasn’t given a shit about harmful monopolistic practices in a long time. They only pretend to care from time to time to force large companies to start donating to politicians.
Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 16:18
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“A long time” would be “Since Trump got back in”, since Biden’s administration was actually doing a lot to tackle monopolies. They just did a shit job of advertising what they were doing.
They removed that a long time ago. I mean think about it, evil is a pretty strong term, most people don't want to be evil. That they chose to remove it from their motto tells you everything.
vivalapivo@lemmy.today
on 26 Aug 14:35
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Finally. This will give a laaaarge boost to harmony os based phones (Huawei) saying Americans goodbye
JigglySackles@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 20:13
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You know, while I was never under the illusion that the US was issue free, it used to be that I didn’t want to buy a chinese phone because of the foreign spying. Now though, my own country is making it so that I’d rather take foreign spying over homegrown. Hope I can grab a pixel 9 soon so that I can use Graphene and dodge both.
Ode an die Freude starts playing in the background
usernameunnecessary@lemmy.zip
on 26 Aug 14:55
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Same outcome as with their search engine, same thing with Chrome, Youtube and many other Google products. They built up their user base with a solid product (or bought it), and then started shitting all over their users by making horrible decisions and inserting all sorts of dark patterns in the name of “security” or whatever else pretense. I’m still hoping another entity steps up and fills the vacuum that Android leaves behind.
InnerScientist@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 19:22
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If you sue now you can get a second lawsuit for free!
WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 21:58
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nah, you waived your rights to class action lawsuits on page 178 section 2.4 subsection b) paragraph 5) when you clicked accept on the first time setup screen of your phone.
commander@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 15:06
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Mobile desperately needs hardware with first class open source drivers and firmware to get away from Google/Apple/Microsoft controlled software platforms. Phones have been super powerful for a long time beyond what most need. We can take hit in theoretical peak performance to build up a better ecosystem until the market is large enough that the big money has to address the market
It exists and will exist for a pretty hefty premium. Not because the makers want to. But frankly the interest in owning and controlling your hardware is more rare than we'd like. So like any niche hobby the hardware will be expensive.
Who knows anymore? But I’d rather say something than accept it silently.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 15:37
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Oh hell yeah, I hope this means an exodus of people forking the latest open source software they can, or if not moving to Linux mobile altogether
Edit:
I had meant that I’d like it if people flocked from developing android to developing Linux mobile. I should have clarified that.
If we could have a solidly performing Linux mobile that has the capability of docking into a full desktop OS, that shit would be an absolute game changer for personal computers.
goatinspace@feddit.org
on 26 Aug 16:27
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Linux mobile is interesting but not ready yet.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 16:33
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Ah yeah, I had meant that I’d like it if people flocked from developing android to developing Linux mobile. I should have clarified that.
If we could have a solidly performing Linux mobile that has the capability of docking into a full desktop OS, that shit would be an absolute game changer for personal computers.
goatinspace@feddit.org
on 26 Aug 16:54
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Developers are busy being proud and hating each other
WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 22:01
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I don’t think there’s that many abdroid rom developers
6nk06@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 16:49
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Not ready but if Google and all the manufacturers kill custom ROMs, everyone will have to switch to Linux or another OS. It’s not like Linux on the desktop where Windows is still acceptable.
InnerScientist@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 19:28
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Linux mobile phones won’t have to be ready if smartphones become un-ready.
Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 16:46
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Thats not how most people work.
Just because there’s a problem, doesn’t mean people seek a solution.
Thats why the majority of people in this country. They can each admit there is a problem. But they do nothing about it. Most don’t even try to diet or exercise.
And you want them to switch to an unfinished linux phone system. They aren’t going to do that over this change. The vast majority don’t use more than 5 apps. What do they care? For most, the cell phone is the replacement for a pc, snd all its used for is to text, and go on tiktok and instagram.
The changes you’re suggesting will work well for a certain crowd. That crowd is maybe 5% of the general population. The rest won’t even notice. And if they did, they’d just put up with it.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 16:49
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Please read my comment below, editing above too
curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Aug 17:38
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If we could have a solidly performing Linux mobile that has the capability of docking into a full desktop OS, that shit would be an absolute game changer for personal computers.
Give me something like the OG Moto Droid, or hell make it a tablet and I have to carry a bag, I don’t care.
That would be my device for everything. I just remote into everything else anyway.
roofuskit@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 16:03
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Oof, time to bite the bullet and switch email providers. Shit like this is why I’ve spent the last couple years de-googling my life.
Do it! It's not that bad. Everyone's got different needs, but I switched to fastmail and have been enjoying it.
Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Aug 17:47
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If you’re making the switch anyway, get yourself a domain name from a separate company to run it through. That way in the future you can keep using your domain even if you switch mail/web-hosting providers.
themadcodger@kbin.earth
on 26 Aug 17:59
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I have a domain and an email address through it, but my problem is I can't find a domain name I like enough to both keep and give out to others as a long term contact point. The one I have right now is silly, and not easy to communicate over the phone.
It's a me problem, but if I ever figure out something I'm will to keep and is available, that's the goal.
Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 27 Aug 16:31
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The domain I use professionally is simply my full name.
Then I use a catch-all so I can give out a mailbox specific to who it’s for. Often that looks like YourCompany@MyName.com
That way if I get spammed I know who to blame.
Will the lesser known domain name make your emails more likely to be filtered as spam? I don’t know the answer, but I am fairly sure it wouldn’t help.
Will having your email routed through a middleman open up security issues? Probably solveable with diligence and awareness, but I recently had a non-technical friend with this setup get his Gmail breached because he was forwarding it to an email inbox on his personal domain from decades earlier that he forgot about, and didn’t have 2FA on the domain webmail. IMHO an easy oversight for anyone, honestly.
The domain name has no effect on spam filters, it’s all about which server is sending it and if the domain is properly configured with MX records, DKIM signing keys, etc… A custom domain with mail sent from a major mail provider won’t get sent to spam any more than a new gmail account.
Mailboxes for a custom domain work exactly the same as any other email. There is no forwarding to another mailbox or provider unless you configure it to be that way. You should be pretty careful with what settings the mail server is configured with though, because encryption is optional…
nondescripthandle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Aug 16:11
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Modern business strategy be like “If you’re not building an illegal monopoly, consider doing so for more money”
I hope MS doesn’t start doing this to Windows or else that would kill WINE/Proton, and also severely harm Windows itself given how deeply sideloading exes or msi files is ingrained into that OS.
Didn't the old arm version of windows have this limitation though? It only ran signed exes with a chain of trust?
I feel like this is probably where things might be heading overall "for our safety". People saying it's only the pixel. It's only the pixel so far. And I think Samsung are locking up bootloaders too. I fully expect both to become the norm.
Oh you'll be able to get a phone that isn't locked this way. With 4 generations out of date hardware at twice the price of the current flagship because it's a niche product they just can not make at scale to be affordable.
Also I've said it elsewhere, local/personal compute is something I fully expect to become a rare and expensive hobby too.
And custom-built PCs are already getting priced further and further out of the market for everyone who isn’t rich; mini PCs are slowly taking over the budget segments, and even some of the mid-range as well.
Next step if it’s allowed to get that far would be locking out alternate OSes after upgradeable PCs are all but eliminated except for HEDT.
They could lock out any other os but windows if they wanted. Mobo makers just need to limit to secure boot only, not allow legacy boot. Only allow the Microsoft key and Microsoft to stop signing the Linux shim. Then it'd not be possible to install Linux or anything else really.
Not going to happen short term. But definitely a possibility.
The ability to filter information using proprietary devices and software in the kernel of all of these garbage devices is the core issue. Trusting the owners of that code is to surrender your right to unbiased and unfiltered information. I am not at all concerned about hacking or security by small insignificant players. I am massively concerned about the extremely powerful using the leverage they have normalized and embedded to become tyrannical neo feudal lords in a fascist society. Google IS the biggest danger by orders upon orders of magnitude. Trusting them is to give up democracy entirely.
All mobile devices are proprietary. Android is a scheme to make a Linux kernel that has everything ready to deploy except the actual hardware drivers for the processor and modem. Manufacturers take this kernel and add their proprietary binaries at the last possible moment. That source code is not available anywhere. The hardware documentation is not available anywhere publicly. Every device model is just different enough that reverse engineering one does nothing transferable to any other. The level of reverse engineering is extreme and requires destroying many devices using things like fuming nitric acid and fluorine solutions just to have a small chance at reading some parts of embedded memory. These are some of the most dangerous and hazardous chemicals humans make, and you still need xray equipment, special microscopes with stepping automation to stitch images, and a ton of time.
This is moving to a tyrannical surveillance state of fascist authoritarianism. Open source software is a major front on the line of real democracy. This is a nuclear bomb released on that democracy. You fear the wrong pirates and criminals. The biggest threats always come from within. Trust as a mechanism is fundamentally antithetical to democracy. Everyone demanding trust is a traitor to democracy. Trust is the key of the fascist kingdom. Once that key is held, democracy has failed regardless of whomever is aware of the situation. Democracy requires fully informed citizens with skepticism and the liberal right to decide for themselves even when they are wrong. This is impossible without full access to information. The source of that information cannot be filtered at any level. We already have the narrowest bottleneck of available information sources in the last 1000 years of history. There are only 2 relevant web crawlers. All search queries filter through one or both of these two and the results from these are not deterministic. Two people searching for the same thing at the same time will get very different and very biased results. This is individualized regardless of any protections people imagine they have in place. Outside of the internet there is no real unbiased media. A dozen people own it all. Even the garbage claiming to comb all sources is drawing the line and dictating what is center right or left is. Anyone at the grassroots level is impossible to find because there are no organic unbiased search results. The results are all filtered junk full of agenda and bias.
This is the real big picture abstract issue in play. When the maga traitors said this was a coup, they absolutely ment that. Mobile devices are all rental garbage someone else controls. Your computer likewise has a secret operating system running in the background that you do not control. In Intel it is called the Intel Management Engines or ME. This started with Intel VPro in 2008. AMD adopted it is 2013. Arm has one too.
All that is left is to steal your right to have a digital front door by eliminating DNS filtering and all of these devices will be controlled and connected directly by someone else that is watching and listening at all times. You are already in tethers as a digital slave that can be bought and sold for exploitation and manipulation without your consent or knowledge using your digital presence. You have not effectively realized the implications of that surrendering of rights to citizenship with full autonomy. The next step is to redefine the word citizen to be functionally equivalent to slave. “You will own nothing, and you will be happy about it” because if you are not, you will be dead. This is the death of democracy. My words will echo in your head years from now. The dystopia to come is beyond anything you can presently imagine and there is no way to stop it now short of taking up arms and playing Luigi if you are able.
The consolidation of wealth is what really made Caesar. That was the death of the republic. It was not Caesar. We are all a product of our time and environment. It was the consolidation of great wealth. All that wealth did not give a shit about Rome, it went to Constantinople for better opportunities at first chance because consolidation of wealth is treasonous. It is as it was, just look at outsourcing and off shoring, or the disgusting mismanagement of banking and housing that have made the A
Increasingly, I think people like yourself should be working to develop systems that don’t just use all this shit. Or systems that use the old shit that doesn’t have all of this modern baggage you speak of.
I know it seems impossible. But it also seems like no one is trying.
WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 21:50
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honestly the hardware seems to be the harder part. for software we could just fork android and tear out the restrictive parts.
For sure. Especially if you want all the modern features, low energy usage profiles, speed, compactness. Etc
I can see why nerds that see what is happening in great detail go off the way they do.
tomenzgg@midwest.social
on 26 Aug 17:11
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I’m probably going to spam this around a bit, since most people don’t seem to know about it, but a reminder that FuriLabs has a (GNU+)Linux phone with decent spec.s and the ability to run Android app.s (from what I’ve heard) pretty decently: furilabs.com
Biggest drawback is it’s based on Halium. Usual growing pains of a new product/company apply but apparently the company is pretty responsive and their dev.s have worked with customers to get things like calling working with the carrier and bands of their country where it hasn’t worked before so improvements move pretty quickly.
Collection of different experiences I’ve variously seen online over the last year or so:
I don’t own one, myself, so I can’t give any personal experience but I’ve seen it around for a few years now but most people don’t seem to even know about it. Maybe there’s a reason for that? But none I’ve ever seen anyone say.
GorGor@startrek.website
on 26 Aug 19:05
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HOLY SHIT IS THAT A HEADPHONE JACK?!
Seriously this ticks boxes Ive given up on. I never thought Id see a phone with all three: waterproof, removable battery, headphone jack. It even has wireless charging which isnt really one of my boxes but is a little extra if you use it.
Yeah; that’s totally fair. Mostly, I just want to get it more known; whenever Mobile Linux come up, people namedrop Purism, the Pinephone, maybe UBPorts and the general conclusion is that the spec.s, alone, of what’s available are pretty much a non-starter.
There’s definitely aspects of this phone that some people wouldn’t go for but I’d rather sales be limited by not-the-right-choice than just no one knew it existed; especially when any progress can get sent upstream and improve future projects, as well.
I didnt care so much about bulky before but now I have wrist issues and I can’t handle heavy phones (and I am in a LDR for a few months more so the phone is used heavily!)
Wow, thanks for this comment, I think I may have finally found my next phone! I did not expect Linux with android, wireless charging, NFC, and hopefully one day display out. Thanks for commenting!
Great. This could be just the boost that free android needs. Graphene and eos can brace for a few new customers i guess
RheumatoidArthritis@mander.xyz
on 26 Aug 19:11
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Graphene developers seem enthusiastic to all the bullshit that Google comes up with, and on security/privacy tradeoff they seem to usually choose security. Case in point, the mandatory battery update.
CalyxOS seems to choose privacy first, but that project folded recently.
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net
on 26 Aug 21:33
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It didn’t fold. They are just reorganizing. Don’t spread misinformation.
I’ve been using graphene for a few months, but this latest news was what reminded me to start a monthly donation to the project. Hopefully Googles shenanigans push more people towards funding alternatives as well
I’ve gotta get a new phone soon (ol Pixel 3 is getting long in the tooth) and this is what I’m looking at too. I highly prefer the “default” Android UI, and the ability to install programs of my own choosing — but fuck Google, imagine getting locked out of your phone just because Google randomly unpersoned you.
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net
on 26 Aug 21:31
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You will be able sideload but the developer has to be authorized by Google. I.e. you can still install apps from f-droid but people publishing apps on f-droid will have to register with Google.
I dont have an issue with a feature to allow my phone to automatically veirfy signatures. But there should be a way to import/configure more signature verification providers including my own authority and even then it should still allow imstall if user really want and trust it.
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net
on 27 Aug 06:49
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Of course, the real issue is that it requires developers to sing up into Google’s ecosystem to distribute any apps. The entire ecosystem of mods and alternative stores will be fine but it’s just another proof Google is trying to kill it.
This might be an issue because f-droid re-signs apps with their own keys…
I mean depends on enforcement I guess.
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net
on 26 Aug 21:54
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Did some research and here are your options:
use custom mod (the new restriction only applies to certified devices). You can use microG (/e/, iode, Lineage) or sandboxing (GrapheneOS) to run apps requiring Google services. Google will still try to kill it but my bet is it will still work for at least a couple of years
Ubuntu Touch - you can buy new devices with it, it can run android apps using waydroid but you will not be able to run any apps requiring google services. It can run native Linux apps. Native UT apps are build using QML. It has a completely new system API so it’s closer to Android then native Linux. It’s based on Halium which uses the kernel from Android
PostmarketOS - native Linux running native Linux apps. Can use waydroid. Few supported devices but everything works on PinePhone Pro and few others phones.
Droidian or similiar - Debian running on Halium. Kind of half way between PostmarketOS and Ubunut Touch. Native Linux but running on Android based kernel
Personally, I will stick with GrapheneOS for now (my Pixel still has at least 6 years of support). When I’m unable to run all the apps I need on it I will switch to two phones setup: stock Android for work/car apps, some Linux phone for everything else. When my Pixel dies I will switch to iPhone.
Google has already started killing GrapheneOS by removing device trees from AOSP releases. Android 16 works fine, but for how long?
I would imagine the first thing any custom ROM would do is bypass Google’s app restrictions.
I wouldn’t be surprised if in 3 years I would need to pass hardware attestation to install a calculator app from the Play store.
tranquil_cassowary@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 02:16
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GrapheneOS still intends to support all the supported devices until EOL. The sideloading change doesn’t affect them. It won’t apply to GrapheneOS. It only applies to certified OSes and GrapheneOS is not certified because it doesn’t license Google Mobile Services. As per the rip out of the device trees for Pixels, that just makes Pixels like other phones. GrapheneOS has been able to expand it’s automation to build that device support themselves. For new devices, making the support will take longer than it did in the past though, but they will still support those Pixels, as long as they meet the hardware requirements and still allow third-party OS support with all security features intact. Besides that GrapheneOS is actively talking with a major Android OEM right now in order to help them reach the security requirements for a subset of their future devices. They are very optimistic about tha
Its Nothing Phone right? It has to be, LG is dead, Sony has a niche, Samsung can get fucked, Moto is budget, HMD wants to be Nokia but I just dont see it, Asus?
tranquil_cassowary@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 20:06
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I’m not going to participate in speculation and rumouring about this. I have an idea about who it might be myself but prefer to not talk about it. Negotations/talks are still ongoing.
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net
on 27 Aug 07:03
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I would imagine the first thing any custom ROM would do is bypass Google’s app restrictions.
Those restrictions don’t apply to custom ROMs. Yes, it’s clear Google is trying to kill custom ROMs but I think we still have couple of years. Linux phones are improving fast and I think in 5 years we will end up in the same spot we were with PCs 20 years ago: you will be able do most of daily driving on a Linux phones but some apps just won’t be possible to run (Authenticator apps, banking apps, Whats App, Android Auto…). Dual booting will not be possible so most probably I will end up with two phones: daily driver and work/car phone.
As very often is said: vote with your wallet and avoid those (assuming it’s important to you).
veniasilente@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 28 Aug 01:12
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There are not going to be apps on Linux phones.
Definitely not banking apps.
Not with that attitude!
Get either your political ass to demand that in your country banks support more than just two OSes, or your coding ass so that you can get into programming work pipeline and one day code the Flatpak for your bank. Either would benefit you and everyone else.
What’s a good custom ROM for a Samsung Fold 7? Just bought one and it’s my dream phone so so I don’t want to give it up so soon already, just so I can watch YouTube without ads. Planned on keeping it for at least the next 4-5 years…
possumparty@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 27 Aug 04:01
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If you want custom roms, you have a fairly restricted set of options for phones.
ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net
on 27 Aug 06:53
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If you want to use custom ROMs you have to check support before buying a phone. Fold 7 is not supported by any custom ROMs from what I can see. Also, I’m pretty sure you can just use Fennec with Adblock on stock Android and not have ads.
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
on 27 Aug 11:05
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You really should have thought about that before buying the device. You cannot install a custom ROM on my Samsung device anymore.
You always have to look at what devices custom ROMs support BEFORE buying them.
I will forever lament my windows phone. Ironically, it was the only option that didn’t need to be rooted to do custom shit. You could just screw with the registry and program with .net and direct X
RheumatoidArthritis@mander.xyz
on 27 Aug 05:00
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I never had a blackberry, but my HTC Desire Z was peak typing. You slide the keyboard out and have a full keyboard. I typed very fast on that thing, every phone I got after that sucked at typing.
Do any alternatives allow using banking apps or android pay or android auto?
I realize there are no substitutes for banking apps, but are there any alternatives for android auto or pay if those cannot be installed? Preferably Linux alternatives.
spicehoarder@lemmy.zip
on 27 Aug 02:35
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Seriously, I see these custom Android Auto USB Sticks that people use to watch Netflix and I just want to know how they hooked into the APIs to do that
Availability in the US might be a bit of a challenge, as the Google/Apple duopoly has solidified greatly over the years there. Europe has the entire BoycottUS movement these days, so there are a lot of attempts at developing something independent there. But as with most new solutions, they have the added difficulty of being compared to these bigger companies who’ve already had many years to develop and perfect their solutions.
The choice boils down to how much you value your principles over comforts, and whether downgrading to physical cards is worth it. Personally I’ve recently done just that.
In regards to Android clones becoming worse, I saw GrapheneOS say on Mastodon that it won’t affect them in any significant way. Hopefully this is the case for most, and will remain the case.
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
on 27 Aug 11:03
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The substitutes for banking apps are banking websites. If your bank does not allow you to use your bank from a website, you should switch banks. I did.
It’d be up to Google to do so, and they probably will just as an example of them totally not being a monopoly “look we even allowed a competing store”.
I will pay hard cash money for some devs to bring postmarketos to quality hardware vendors.
I’m all for buying a pinephone, but man are we missing out on the full potential from some genuinely good OEM hardware stuff like razr flip.
Aside from google doing google things, android has been a bloated java pos toy OS for nearly a decade now. It completely wastes the full potential of superior hardware by running everything on a shitty JVM known as the ART that was designed for when devices had <512mb of RAM. A Nintendo 3DS can do better multi process tasking than modern android which regularly kills app threads for no reason other than to screw with you because you dared to switch to a different app for 5 seconds.
Android was supposed to be the big apple killer because of its closeness to a desktop OS with heavy emphasis on widespread features and functionality. Even technically speaking, rooting got you there if you wanted to run whatever straight on the linux environment or swap kernels.
Its nothing but a ripoff iOS clone now. Android 7/8 was probably the peak of development and usability, and even back then people were complaining it didn’t have groundbreaking improvements like 6 or lollipop.
ominousdiffusion@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 11:15
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I don’t think that it’s the lack of quality hardware what is stopping adoption of Linux on phones. There are many resons why I don’t consider someting like PostmarketOS viable as a daily driver for most.
First of all some apps are just not available on Linux. Banking apps are a prime example. Most banks are now requiring some form of app where I live and they don’t even consider Linux. But that’s also another problem in it self.
Secondly: driver support. Drivers aren’t something one thinks about when talking about phones. But they are needed and mobile phones being what they are, most manufacturers aren’t really open to do anything in that regard.
As an Android developer I’m also annoyed by the restrictive power management of Android. But it’s there for a reason. On PostmarketOS my phone would be dead after sitting around all day doing noting. On Android I can maybe squeeze two to three days of use out of the same phone. And that’s not even with the OEM rom.
That being said, I hope for a future were all of the current issues can be solved and we finally have a viable alternative to Apple and Google.
To be clear, I’m in no way trying to defend what Google is doing.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 13:06
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I honestly don’t care about apps. I switched to GrapheneOS and opted to not use Google Play Services, so my app selection is very limited, especially for things like banking apps. It turns out I can just use the website for the vast majority of them, and I can fill in the gaps with FDroid apps.
The main things stopping me from using a Linux phone (eg PostmarketOS) are:
MMS compatibility - I use this a lot with family, and getting everyone on Signal or something isn’t going to happen
battery efficiency - the best I’ve heard is 8 hours with light use, and there are still issues receiving notifications in standby mode
hardware quality issues and drivers - every phone supported by PostmarketOS either has a bunch of unsupported hardware (ie no camera support), or the hardware is poor (ie the PinePhone has crappy audio)
I don’t need a flagship with top tier driver support, I just need basic phone things to work. I’m even okay with poor camera quality, provided I can take pictures of things and clearly read the text later. I don’t need much in terms of app support, and I’m willing to help port things I need. But my phone needs to work as a phone, and it needs to do so all day without needing to charge until night.
Lifter@discuss.tchncs.de
on 27 Aug 14:20
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The only way to log into my bank on the website is to use the phone two factor authentication app, which only works with Google Play Services… 💩
I’m considering getting a dedicated login device which can sit on my desk all day doing nothing else.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 14:37
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Which 2FA app is that? I use Aegis (replaces Google Authenticator, available on FDroid) and Symantec VIP (from Google Play, but via Aurora and runs w/o Google Play Services). Is it something different?
ominousdiffusion@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 14:54
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Most of them don’t support generic 2FA codes and sadly require some sort of proprietary app that talks to their servers. Setting them up usually also requires some sort of identification; think receiving a pin in the post. As far as I can tell, the only other option for me is to rent some sort of pin generation terminal from the bank which is, of course, ridiculously expensive.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 23:21
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That sucks.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) banks here (US) generally only support SMS 2FA and occasionally support email, and a handful use the their app (but fall back to SMS).
I actually switched to Fidelity (a brokerage) as a primary bank because they were the only one I could find that supported real MFA using the Symantec VIP app, which fortunately works fine without Google Play Services.
In Sweden, all the major banks joined together and created BankId. It is now pretty much a monopoly on id verification. Even some government agencies use it, which is problematic for multiple reasons.
ominousdiffusion@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 15:07
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Yeah, I tried to use it as my daily driver a while back and what bugged me most was the terrible battery efficiency. Running the full desktop version of Firefox certainly didn’t help. At that point the camera also didn’t have any drivers. Since theres been some progress and we now have a work in progress driver for that model. Frankly it’s amazing that this works at all and I’m incredibly grateful for anyone working on this.
I’ve actually been rather lucky and managed to convince most of my friends to join me on Signal so we barely need to rely on SMS anymore. But last time I checked there weren’t any real Signal clients availabe for Linux phones. Of course, one could always use the desktop version but that still requires a phone to be linked to. Someone has managed to get the Matrix/Signal bridge working and rely on Matrix for the final delivery but that seems like too much tinkering for me :D
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 15:29
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Don’t get me wrong, I think the work that’s been done is amazing, my point is that it’s still not daily driver ready. I want to help out, I just don’t have the time anymore with a full-time job and kids. If it was daily drive-able, I could probably spare a few hours here and there to improve things (port apps, track down bugs, etc).
I hope it gets there before I need a new phone. Last year I switched to a Pixel 8 for GrapheneOS and cut out most of my Google Play apps, so I should be good for a few years, but I’d very much like to ditch Android entirely next time.
For now, I got my SO to use Signal, but that’s it.
simsalabim@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 06:46
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Where does it say that Google is blocking all side loading?
It says they are blocking the installing of unsigned apps. This is the macOS Gatekeeper being the only option on Android. You can still download and install apps that aren’t in the Play Store. So the EU will still love this as 3rd party apps can still exist, but at the same time anything “illegal” can be reported to them immediately.
Which is just the loophole they’re trying to use now to assert control. This is just technicalities, the end result is that if you want to make apps for others to install they want to be the final say on you being allowed to do that or not.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 13:07
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You mean when they forced Apple to implement the “trusted trader” scheme.
NicestDicerest@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 16:40
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No, i mean when they forced apple to open their IOS system to side loading custom, unverified apps.
The trusted trader scheme only applies if you want to distribute your app via the official apple iOS app store.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 20:06
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The DSA requires people offering apps (“traders”) to provide certain information. For example: address, email, and phone number must be made public. When Apple introduced that, this also caused some outrage and calls for EU regulation. Despite the fact that this was exactly the regulation called for. Hence, why I mentioned that trusted trader scheme.
Google may be legally required to do this. I’m not sure how the DSA is to be interpreted on this. It’s certainly not a stretch (see Article 31). It’s out of touch to believe the EU will push against this.
NicestDicerest@lemmy.world
on 30 Aug 04:17
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Okay aber schau mal. Die EU hat Apple Verklagt und gezwungen, Nicht-Registrierte, nicht gemeldete Apps und sogar Appstores auf IOS verfügbar zu machen. Für die Apps dort muss niemand irgendwas angeben, du kannst dir einfach irgendeine App von Github kopieren und auf deinem IPhone ausführen, dank dem Urteil von vor c.a. 10 Monaten.
Warum sollte dann jetzt, wenn Google das Sideloaden von Custom Apps streichen möchte, die EU plötzlich fein damit sein? Ich meine, sie haben in einem langen Prozess Apple dazu gezwungen, genau das zu ermöglichen und die Monopolstellung als einziger App-Distributor angeklagt.
Und das spannende ist ja: Diese Entscheidung wurde nach August 2023 getroffen, also nach der offiziellen Einführung und Anwendung des DSA. Heißt: Hier wurde entschieden das Sideloaden kein Bruch des DSA’s darstellt.
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 30 Aug 12:09
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Hast du da eine Quelle dazu? Soweit ich weiß, verlangt Apple, dass alle Apps “notarized” sein müssen. Also das, was Google jetzt auch einführt.
Für Apps im offiziellen Store ist das explizit EU-Vorschrift. Warum sollte die EU was dagegen haben, wenn das freiwillig ausgedehnt wird (falls es freiwillig ist)?
NicestDicerest@lemmy.world
on 31 Aug 09:27
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Stimmt - Du hast recht.
Laut Apple Hier müssen die Apps tatsächlich verifiziert sein, auch wenn sie über alternative Wege distributiert werden.
Das wusste ich nicht, ich habe das damals so verstanden, dass die Apps nicht zertifiziert sein müssen und installiert werden können wie bei Android.
Hm. Na super. Dann wird die EU wohl nicht dagegen vorgehen, im Gegenteil. Dachte das wäre unter dem Digital Markets Act anders… Na da freu ich mich ja schon drauf
General_Effort@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 13:09
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The Cyber Resilience Act may also have something to do with this.
BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 15:55
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The EU waltz.
One step forward.
One step to the left.
Two steps to the right.
Three steps back.
EU is moving full steam ahead toward the end of “private” computers and mandatory state surveillance on your devices. They’ll be delighted with that. The funky “hey, we’re consumer friendly” times are over.
dual_pyramid_reality@lemmings.world
on 27 Aug 07:24
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Where are all the open source phone OSes? Where are the OS agnostic capable hardware phones? Technically some do exist, but I don’t think they have any significant market share. Hope I’m wrong though.
douglasg14b@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 07:55
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Essentially every browser that’s not Firefox or Safari is reskinned Google chrome for a reason. Because it’s insanely expensive to build and maintain browsers. Mobile operating systems aren’t much different in this regard.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 12:56
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That’s not exactly true. There are several FOSS mobile OSes, such as PostmarketOS, Mobian, Ubuntu Touch, and the various Android ROMs. Once it’s compatible, keeping that OS updated is relatively simple.
The issues with mobile OSes are:
many phones lock their bootloadersl, and every phone mfg seems to do things a little differently
so many different phone models with different hardware includes, none of which has manufacturer support in Linux
closed firmware for cell modems, which have their own little OS that needs to work with the main OS; trying to touch this runs into regulatory issues
Basically, supporting a new phone has a lot of upfront work with very little ongoing work.
Web browsers, on the other hand, need to stay updated with constantly shifting web standards, they’re a huge malware target so they need to keep up on CVEs, and pages are getting more complex causing performance and rendering issues, and everyone blames the browser. Supporting a new platform is generally trivial, but the ongoing work is immense.
Not to mention just about every “serious” app (gov’t, banking, etc) check safetynet before even turning on. (Hell I’ve had a gov’t app refuse to start because I had developer options enabled, on a completely ‘clean’ phone)
So emulating them isn’t gonna work and websites do not always prioritize working on mobile anymore (“just install the app”)
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 23:17
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Yeah, YMMV certainly applies. But the good news is you can try it out on your current phone before committing.
sommerset@thelemmy.club
on 27 Aug 09:32
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Google slowly suffocated all the 3rd party rom vendors.
cley_faye@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 17:09
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They are in the same room with all the third-party support for them, ESPECIALLY from state-built applications that are increasingly being required to do administration stuff and mandatory banking apps that are required for online payment and even opening their websites these days.
That room does not exist.
veniasilente@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 28 Aug 01:03
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Where are all the open source phone OSes? Where are the OS agnostic capable hardware phones?
In the “waiting for funding” room.
If people don’t care enough to finance projects like Fairphone, etc… while they are still in the growing pains, then those projects will never be able to last during a digital consumer war, let alone provide a product that has enough mass appeal that it makes sense to build and commercialize on auto.
dual_pyramid_reality@lemmings.world
on 29 Aug 06:49
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Modern tech markets are broken. We need a new type of economy.
veniasilente@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 29 Aug 14:17
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Not a new one. The solution to capitalism was posted long ago. We just need to admit it.
NotACIAPlant@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 07:36
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If you have the ability to, don’t use a smartphone. You’ll be better off and you don’t have to care about stuff like this anymore.
For real, when this thing rolls out, I’m going to stop updating and try to still use my foss apps for as long as they still work, once my phone eventually becomes useless I’m not going to spend 400 on an expensive phone just so I can run custom roms. I will have to just get used to not having a computer in my pocket all the time again.
I wish I had… Got me a VoLTE capable feature phone and tried but it’s insanely difficult to get people to understand that you’re only available on call or SMS now (+no MMS here) lol
Ok this needs harsh pushback, because phones are affordable, computers are not.
There needs to be a massive project dealing with making phones platform agnostic.
Yeah, definitely. My point is that phones are not inherently more affordable than computers, like it was 20 years ago.
cley_faye@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 17:08
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My current phone, a Pixel 7a, cost me around 350€ (let’s say it’s roughly the same in $). There is definitely cheaper options. And most of these options will give you a decent phone.
A $200 computer will bring you to basic office stuff and playing facebook games.
A 350€ computer will be capable of similar computing power as a 350€ phone, plus the form factorc comfort. I struggle to do basic office stuff on my high end phone, for instance.
DupaCycki@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 09:23
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Two things especially worth noting from the article.
If you have a non-Google build of Android on your phone, none of this applies.
This means that at least GrapheneOS will be unaffected for now. Other ROMs without gapps will be unaffected only as long as you don’t install gapps. Since Graphene has a sandbox for them, I’m assuming it’ll be fine. That is, unless Google decides to lock the bootloader entirely.
In September 2026, Google plans to launch this feature in Brazil, Indonesia, Singapore, and Thailand. The next step is still hazy, but Google is targeting 2027 to expand the verification requirements globally.
So most users worldwide still have at least 1.5 years until it’s implemented. Plenty of time to get a Pixel and install Graphene on it. Or to figure out some other plan.
Don’t get me wrong - this is insane, unreasonable and horrible news for everyone. We should push back as hard as physically possible against it. However, at the very least we still have some time to figure things out before the policy rolls out.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Google stop allowing BL unlocking soon… Following Samsung and Xiaomi (although Xiaomi technically can be unlocked, in reality you’ll not be able to do so nowadays unless you pay someone to do it via remote USB shit for you)
sommerset@thelemmy.club
on 27 Aug 09:30
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I’m getting Huawei
supernight52@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 12:28
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Literally just as bad lol
sommerset@thelemmy.club
on 27 Aug 13:15
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Yes. Would be a protest buy.
I would spend more money and get Chinese os to just not fund Google.
The way I see it this is the last drop in the bucket for android openness anyways.
I am toying with the idea of creating a PDA of sort from a raspberry pie, touchscreen and a powerbank. Case can be 3d printed, it would be bulky af and equipped with Tails or some other secure OS.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 12:34
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Why not just get a PinePhone?
dogs0n@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 12:49
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Because they are cool and build phones from scratch
romantired@shibanu.app
on 27 Aug 13:21
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Well, sort of…
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 14:35
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Got it, you want a project more than a finished product. I can respect that. :)
Showroom7561@lemmy.ca
on 27 Aug 13:53
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Google says it’s no different than checking IDs at the airport.
Fucker, if I own the airport, own the planes in the airport, am the only person using my own planes in my own airport, then nobody is asking for my ID.
Our phone, our software choice.
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online
on 27 Aug 15:52
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But what if you owned nothing and were happy about it?
The minimalist in me would love that. But while I am paying for this shit, it’s mine to do what the hell I damn well please with it!
CrowAirbrush@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 18:09
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There it is, haha.
Gave me a good chuckle as i’m with you here.
I have a similar sentiment when it comes to ads, my device, i pay for the internet and the device is inside my home. I’ll decide if you get to show me ads.
For ads at least the argument can be made that the content you consume is not yours and as such you should not be allowed to choose how it is monetized.
Google unilaterally deciding this is like Firefox or chrome adding ads to websites. Which is like no… They’re the medium through which content is consumed.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 18:15
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Fucker, if I own the airport, own the planes in the airport, am the only person using my own planes in my own airport, then nobody is asking for my ID.
Okay, but what if Google owns the airport, the planes, and thinks it’s entitled to own the people flying on them, to boot?
Read the contracts you sign when you buy your phone and you’ll understand how wrong you are. The problem here is we have very little choices. Monopolies kill consumer choice.
Read the contracts you sign when you buy your phone
Contracts? Unless I’m buying a subsidized phone where a mobile phone plan is required, I’m not sure what other contract I’d be signing. I never got one from Samsung, OnePlus, Google, any used marketplace, or Amazon.
They get paid, and I get hardware to do what I like with it. If I can’t do what I want with it, then I’m renting, and I should be paying a rental fee, not a “full price”.
The Android ecosystem has been feeling more like an invasive chaotic advertisement machine the past few years. The play store is a cesspool, the weather app switch was poorly executed, Google Podcasts went to the graveyard, and Google pay getting shut down meant I had to switch back to vomits Venmo.
I still have Android gaming handhelds, but why wouldn’t I just get an iPhone the next time I go to replace my phone? I can’t believe I’m even saying that after being so die hard Android so for years.
Electricd@lemmybefree.net
on 27 Aug 16:24
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Sorry I should have clarified. Google pay moved the payment features to Google wallet, but the biggest loss was the person-to-person payments are now gone. I never understood why they had multiple apps that did the same thing. I seem to also remember a time where there was a Google pay and gpay app that lived side by side, so there were a total of three apps when there should have been one.
Electricd@lemmybefree.net
on 27 Aug 20:58
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oh, I didn’t know this
cley_faye@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 17:04
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They also managed to remove a feature from the fucking clock app. It’s not much, but seriously, it’s like a headless chicken running toward a cliff from the business end.
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking too. Android’s only advantage over the Apple ecosystem is being able to install apps. If that goes away there’s no reason for me to stay.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 18:13
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why wouldn’t I just get an iPhone
Jumping from the frying pan straight into the fire.
brendansimms@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 18:57
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Exactly this. Just left iOS and got a pixel8a and flashed grapheneos on it. Apple is doing the same shit. GOS might be a pain in the ass sometimes but I feel much better knowing that Tim Apple isn’t reading my texts and monitoring my bank apps so they can target me with ads.
I can’t do Graphene because of work. I am an IT manager, and one of our guys did graphene and had a host of issues with the work apps. I really can’t risk any issues.
sturmblast@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 22:34
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This is the unfortunate hell I am in too. I’m debating an iPhone and I fucking hate Apple with a passion.
nullptr@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 27 Aug 23:52
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It sucks that at this point both systems suck. Apple is not great but at least it’s been pretty stable. If Apple allowed side loading that would be the dream.
It is a tough choice, both companies are gigantic and kind of scumbags. Funny story though, I was also in the market for a new computer recently as my 10 year old Windows 10 tower was really starting to show its age. My frustrations with Windows had also peaked.
I have been doing a more photo and video editing for fun, and I ended up taking a leap. I got an M4 Pro Mac mini. Mac OS is definitively better (IMO) for home use than Windows, and the M series processors are like wizardry. I liked it so much that shortly after I bought a used M2 Max MacBook Pro off of a coworker.
Coincidentally, a few months after I got my Macs LTT also switched over first to Snapdragon-based Windows laptops and later to Macs for a 30-day challenge and they ended up staying on the Macs.
I am an IT manager and I don’t think I would ever want to deploy Macs at scale in my workplace, though it is the only computer I look forward to using now.
I have GrapheneOS for work, everything works fine. The only app that I had trouble with was the Westjet app, it needs a certain capatibily setting turned on and basically wants full access to the phone. Ironically the banking app was fine LOL
I’m sure we all have a different perception, but my current view is that Google sells you a phone that they need to push ads and harvest vast amounts of data from you in order to make money on the phone, and Apple somehow needs to do this less.
Which company do you feel takes privacy more seriously? From what I understand, Google primarily makes their money from advertising.
I’ve never owned an iPhone, but I 100% agree with you. The reason I choose android is because of the freedom to use my phone how i want (for the most part).
Apple is a walled garden, but their security is good, they’re not an advertising company in the same way google is and don’t have as much of an incentive to harvest and sell your data. If android is going to be a walled garden like iOS, I trust apple more than i do google and If in the future I can’t find a phone that has all the features i want anyway, then i may as well just get an iPhone.
Agreed across all points. Android’s main advantages after the changes go through with side loading will be:
choice of manufacturer and
the still-deeply-flawed-but-far-superior implementation of a work profile in Android.
I love being able to press one button and have all of my containerized work apps shut off. It is also quite nice that a remote wipe from M365 could be limited to the work app container rather than the entire phone.
MrScottyTay@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Aug 18:59
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Google pay being shut down is news to me. I still pay contactless with Google pay and also for paying on websites…
Yes, sorry I should have clarified. The biggest loss was the person-to-person payments are now gone. I never understood why they had multiple apps that did the same thing. I seem to also remember a time where there was a Google pay and gpay app that lived side by side, so there were a total of three apps when there should have been one.
I wouldn’t be so sure they will allow you to do it.
First they implemented chrome restrictions for adblockers with manifest v3, then restricted AOSP sources. Looks like they are pretending to be Apple now.
“A simple smartphone that you can build yourself! Can do everything a normal smartphone can!”
Deflated0ne@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 16:59
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Well. They will try anyway.
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online
on 27 Aug 18:49
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The phone I have now is half way paid off… I will say it. It is a Samsung S23. I didn’t want it. It is just my other phone literally died from a single drop of water! I won’t get into the details. But I want grapheneOS or the most private OS I can.
Right now I have been carrying my phone less than before. I used to take it even to grocery store trips, but I am just getting sick of the endless monitoring, even if I am a terminally online person. I literally cannot leave my apartment without being on camera since my landlord has all the corridors and exits/entrances on 24/7 surveillance.
I know that a phone can be tracked even when on a private OS. And the EU’s rules on wanting a copy of every single message sent out from all messaging apps (including signal) will still affect non-EU people, too. It fucking sucks.
WelcomeBear@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 01:15
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I don’t personally understand the desire to do this beyond “it’s the principle damnit” or doing illegal stuff but if you really want your phone to not be tracked then just use a verified faraday bag. Or make one yourself if you’re poor and then validate it yourself.
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online
on 28 Aug 02:58
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I learned the hard way many, many, many times just what even a simple ‘hello my name is (name), and I am a (job title at company)’ to the wrong person that you’d think could not have had any negative consequences whatsoever ended up causing absolute hell for me. I’ve been robbed, lied about and had my reputation utter destroyed, been a victim of identity theft by people I knew personally, had my family stalked and harassed, and even had multiple hit and run attempts done on me by people actively stalking me. Not to mention how anything and everything I said, no matter how innocent it seemed absolutely can be twisted against you. And I mean ANYTHING.
And I did nothing wrong, nothing illegal, nothing shady. I just had people calling me antisocial and so I made conversation with them, talking about my day, my studies, what I ate for lunch… and fuck me you would not believe what people can do with simple information like that.
There is a reason some people clam up at even the simplest question posed to them by anyone. I did try to ask simple information about people above, even things as damn simple as what their (real) names were because apparently it turned out they didn’t tell me their real names and they got VERY violent the moment I probed into anything. The people who claim that ‘nothing to hide nothing to fear’ are also the most secretive people who absolutely will not allow anyone an inkling about themselves. This is why.
BTW you want to know how simple info like what ate for lunch can be used against you? I once said that I wanted to work at little overtime because I wanted to earn back the money I paid for an unplanned lunch…
Now you might say ‘how the fuck could that statement be used against you?’. Well the guy said I was acting unprofessionally and said I needed to run to the cafeteria to pay for a lunch I took without paying for it. Basically accusing me of dining and dashing.
Best part? Management believed him… they believed him despite the fact that I had WRITTEN that in a work chat and they presented the screencaps to me. I didn’t say anything during the investigation because… I have no idea what to say. I had already told people I was trying to save money by not buying lunch and also working overtime. But even that was interpreted as an insult by me against them because they thought I was calling them lazy and useless with money. They just kept making accusations like that, and while initially management said ‘wow that guy is an asshole’ they never dismissed what the others said. So after dozens of bullshit accusations my credibility just kept dropping and theirs rising.
And all of this could have been avoided if I simply refused to talk to anyone.
Foregoing sharing personal information with the wrong crowd is likely imperative, but it’s probably best to find ways out of unstructured servile relationships i.e. workplaces with any hint of drama, disorganization, or lack of focus.
If you don’t feel welcomed and supported, if the hierarchy is oppressive, if your peers are seemingly jealous or readily find fault in you, if you are insulted - start looking for another job. Or never stop looking for jobs until you’re sure you’re safe… or just work remote.
I’ve had my fair share of similarly unbelievable circumstances - and what I’ve learned is to not mess around with anything with a hint of instability and also to avoid being in close proximity to potentially volatile individuals - unless I’m absolutely sure I’m safe and that the individuals are harmless.
It really doesn’t matter if you talk or don’t talk - if people see you as condescending, if they dislike you intensely for no apparent reason, if they are on drugs or are experiencing psychosis, if somebody misinforms them about you, etc. it’s within the realm of possibility that something undesirable happens.
…but don’t be afraid to engage with people you feel you can trust - give it time if you have to, but past undesirable circumstances shouldn’t take away from your life and range of experience. And worrying that the worst possible scenario will unfold all the time is also very paralyzing and limiting in my experience - there has to be a better and bolder way forward, that also does not delve into naivety.
I use Osmand+ for most of my navigation. Google Maps also works.
GrapheneOS is for Pixels only.
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online
on 29 Aug 11:38
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Osmand is great! For driving a car it is superior to Google maps. The only reason why I use Google for anything is because their public transport database is still superior. Once that is taken care of they can kiss my ass.
I only have a Gmail account because my dad made one for me back in 2005, when it was invite only…
AniZaeger@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 20:05
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Last I checked, unverified software didn’t run the risk of making my phone fly itself into, and bring down, a skyscraper.
raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 20:26
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I honestly wish for the responsible people to die. A natural, painless death, but let it be quick. All of silicon valley is so evil it would be deemed unrealistic for a movie villain. They are selling out our freedoms and planet for what? They are already stinking rich.
sbrodolino21@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 22:31
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Most moderate lemmy user when talking about digital freedom:
raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 23:33
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Moderates is what got us into this dystopia. We should have never tolerated greed and selfishness to begin with.
@raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world@themachinestops@lemmy.dbzer0.com Plus, on the bright side, it'd slow climate change rates by a pretty considerable rate, if not reversing to pre-Industrial Revolution global temperatures (seriously). But maybe I'm being too optimistic here.
raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
on 28 Aug 08:40
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It would definitely help.
MetalMachine@feddit.nl
on 27 Aug 20:55
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Wtf is this
sturmblast@lemmy.world
on 27 Aug 22:31
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I guess it’s time to buy a linux phone
passwordforgetter@lemmy.nz
on 28 Aug 07:52
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Support for this will grow, I hope. Linux on PC has been really easy for the past 10 or so years, but phones often have locked bootloaders. There’s not that much support for different models either, feels like a work in progress. I hope someone just starts up a volunteer organisation that can provide pre-installed free software. Not just one centralised company, but multiple outlets.
GrapheneOS’ whole thing is security and privacy. It’s big on sandboxing apps and browser sessions. Google Play and most Android features are opt-in (Google Play Services are also sandboxed). Just check their features.
LineageOS doesn’t have most of the above. It’s mostly just a regular barebones Android distribution without all the vendor bloat, and a great alternative if you just want more control and less BS (if you’ve used a Samsung device you will know what I mean - absolutely horrible distribution imo).
I’m gonna try to install chimera linux on my fairphone. then I could use phosh as a window manager and use waydroid so I could have android apps! time to see how crazy that is.
Update: I did a bit of research, and chimera does support aarch64(the architecture of the fairphone 4) and it seems pretty doable, the postmarketos wiki says most features are supported, so we’ll see!
yermaw@sh.itjust.works
on 28 Aug 11:05
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Isn’t this like 90% of the reason people prefer android over apple?
timidtaxidermist@lemmy.ca
on 28 Aug 12:21
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threaded - newest
Remember that brief period in the US where, for a fleeting moment, Lina Khan went after a few companies for monopolistic practices?
Yeah man, those were the days.
Brother let me tell you about my friend Janet Reno, who fucked with Microsoft in 2001…
How about letting the users decide what to sideload? What the hell?
I hope the EU is ready to also sue Google.
It will probably be for the rest of the world.
EU devices not effected.
The EU already forced sideloading to be officially supported on iPhones thanks to the Digital Markets Act, and that law applies to Google as well.
The US will likely apply pressure, just like they are trying to force their death machines to be legalized on European roads. Apple already tried to pressure the union and failed, but the political climate has changed a bit since then, and while EU bureaucrats can be fierce, European leadership tends to be weak as fuck.
But yeah, chances are that this change won't apply to the EU. :)
which is utterly disheartening.
Does the law demand unsigned software?
Google is clearly trying to find a loophole here. Their loophole clearly sucks.
In all likelihood it'll end up in front of the Court of Justice of the European Union. And in all likelihood Google will lose again.
The Court of Justice generally seems unimpressed by American lobbyists, so the strategy of finding a dumb loophole is probably doomed to fail.
That didn’t answer my question. M
The answer is no. It's not phrased like that. But it's all about ensuring free competition in digital markets. The sole purpose of Google's move here is to hinder competition in their own digital market, and to keep control over it.
So the law does not have a paragraph stating that "unsigned software must be allowed", but it has a bunch of other paragraphs that can be used to strike down on monopolistic behaviour.
Google are aware of the law, and will try to find a loophole by designing a system that they believe technically complies with it. Then someone will sue them, it will end up in the European court, and the European court will in all likelyhood tell Google to get fucked.
It seems american tech companies think they can get away with anything because that's how it works in the US. We are repeatedly seeing that this is not how it works in Europe: the Court of Justice tends to care deeply about the intention of the law, as well as the perceived consequences of their rulings. And they don't seem to care all that much about American capitalists.
But to answer your question very simply: No, it doesn't. But thankfully that doesn't matter at all.
I feel like there should independent signing authorities that the major platforms honor. But that’s its own can of worms. Who runs them, is it the government? A non-profit? How do we prevent corruption of that entity, etc.
And yeah, the tech companies have raced ahead of comprehension. At least the comprehension that reasonable and good lawmakers have. At the same time, it’s increasingly looking like the terrible people in power know just how far ahead tech is. (Thiel)
You can't make laws for every single possible future reality. We need courts that uphold laws even when billionaires try to dodge them using shady techniques. The problem is that big tech often gets away with murder because they can afford expensive lawyers. Especially in the US laws are essentially meaningless for the rich. This is not so much the case in Europe.
I have heard some positive signals from the European Court of Justice that they are taking the challenge from big tech seriously and that they are going the extra miles to understand these issues. If you're particularly interested, many judges talk about this in the Borderlines podcast series by Berkley law. But it gets really dry really fast haha.
I don't believe in signing authorities. It's not effective - Google can't even keep malware off the play store - and it's an authoritarian move. Hell, most apps in the play store spy on their users, profiling usage to sell to advertisers along with ID codes that makes it possible to combine data between apps and build detailed profiles of individuals. The problem is not apps that are not signed - the problem is the whole economy of apps that work as Google intend them to.
Also, it's a basic question of rights. It's my phone, I bought the hardware, I own it, I install whatever the fuck I want on it.
Why exactly do we need signing authorities? Software isn’t zero trust like websites. You do need to trust the developer - even a legitimate one. Signing apps with verified developer keys will only hurt small independent developers, open source projects and freedom enabling stuff like user patching.
It only works to solidify monopolies and doesn’t protect you against shit.
It’s too bad they were too terrible at writing legislation to be successful.
What exactly do you mean?
Sure, nothing is perfect, but EU legislation has generally been quite good, from the GDPR to the DMA.
The challenges are more related to enforcement - rules on the book are worth nothing if we don't force companies to live by them. In this respect we've seen some pretty sloppy behaviour, but also some victories. It's not a one-sided story.
Another challenge is of course to keep passing good laws, and to avoid terrible ones. Chat control needs to be stopped. Stopping it is a matter of convincing national governments it's a bad idea, as well as members of the European Parliament - everyone should be writing their representatives NOW. But that's another issue entirely. :)
don’t iphones delete your sideloaded apps against your will and along with your data, if you don’t use the ibstaller tool at once every week?
if so that’s useless for anybody other than developers themselves who otherwise don’t even want to use their own app.
I have no idea as I don't follow apple much, but I am aware that they are constantly trying to find ways to avoid complying with EU law, and that it is often rapidly struck down.
What you're describing here is not a failure of the law, but Apple trying real hard to find creative ways not to comply with it. To me it only shows that they are desperate, and that EU law is in fact getting to them.
If they keep at it it'll eventually end up in court, the case will take a couple of years, and they'll be slammed with a fine and asked to get their shit together.
No? I have an iPhone in the EU and have several sideloaded apps. All still work and have all the data even after not using them for a while.
I mean Apple has continued their shitfuckery unabated.
Not unabated. They are stuck trying to find new loopholes to not comply, which are then struck down. It's a cat and mouse game, and they think they can get away with it because they have the most expensive lawyers.
Again, enforcement is the challenge, not the laws themselves.
I’ve seen no such thing but maybe I’m just not paying close enough attention. They still have the same bullshit where third party stores still need to pay them 27%, and they still require Apple’s approval, which is almost nothing gained.
Everything takes a long time, but things are happening. If you search for the terms "fine apple EU" or "fine apple EU" in your search engine of choice you'll see there's quite a lot going on.
I have some personal friends who are working with this stuff for the European Commission. It basically takes a long time to build a case against tech giants, and then once the Commission fines them these fines will be appealed in the EU court system, which will take even more years to process.
It's annoying that there's not a magic switch to flick to make Google and Apple comply with EU law, but that's the world we live in. If the EU just banned Google and/or Apple it would probably backlash tremendously (never mind that I doubt they have the authority to do so even if they wanted), so they have to move a bit slowly. :)
The EU is currently deepthroating Trump so hard that it’s completely out of breath and all our clothes are ruined.
With how volatile Trump is this could change literally anyday, but with the current political equilibrium all google would have to do is gift trump a shiny golden thing so he makes a threatening remark about gas exports and the EU would go “uwu yes master right away master, do you want to fuck my gaping asshole while you’re at it?”.
I don't like how tech is evolving...
Devolving*
It’s evolving, just towards authoritarianism.
It was always intended to be this way.
The beginning was pre-enshittification. We're going from the good ole' days to the future, and the future sure as shit aint for you unless you're in the club... and you aint, none of us are.
We need to make our own club, with blackjack and hookers!
There’s already a firm divide between the foss/self sufficiency crowd and modern tech.
If this is bad enough, you’d see every foss faithful walking around with a laptop, mp3 player and camera like they’re in 2009.
Every day that passes I use my T480 more and more, it will die with me
I hardly believe foss faithful people would ever carry a laptop, but there is a chance they will choose a foss-respecting phone (not that there are many options)
The whole thinkpad obsession in the linux/foss community isn’t visible to you?
Carrying a laptop like it was a Steam Deck is pretty hard, nevermind like it was a phone, unless it’s like a Vaio or something.
Yeah, I’m not sure I like how the axe in my hand is evolving. It seems to be going for the internet fiber.
Google getting rid of all the things that made people want an android phone over an iPhone.
Yep, if this happens there is no benefit to android.
It's still a step up from iOS, which has had similar restrictions since they started.
Apple allows sideloading (somewhat), this is would be demonstrably worse (if enacted)
Yes. Only in the EU and only since 2024 when Apple was forced to do it by new laws. It’s reasonable to assume Google would be subject to the same laws.
If you live outside if the EU, it’s “no sideload for you!” There are computer programs that can do sideloading to iPhones, but they have limitations, like having to refresh the sideloaded apps every seven days.
Wholly incorrect. You’re allowed to sideload up to 3 apps (or 10 appIDs, whichever comes first) without being a developer, and that arbitrary restriction is removed if you pay for a dev license, regardless of which part of the world you’re in.
In the EU you’re allowed to install third party app stores (still have to be notarized by Apple) which isn’t sideloading
The limitations depend on which program you’re using - there’s more than one - which is why I only gave a simple example. And if you have to pay for a function that is otherwise free to many others, that’s a limitation.
Side loading is installing an app from anywhere but the official store. So by definition “third party” is side loading. Whether it’s another store or authorised is irrelevant.
No it doesn’t. It’s in all the documentation, official and otherwise
You can’t just make up a definition, believe it, and then share it like it’s true. We’re going by the legal definition as that’s the only one that matters.
Apple only allows up to 3 apps or 10 appIDs to be sideloaded, wherever you are in the world. Period.
Youre not getting it. The developers of the tools can and do impose their own additional limitations. They’re still limitations of the programs which is what we were taking about.
And it doesn’t matter what limitations Apple imposes in its walled garden, their phones can still be jail broken and side loaded in the more traditional way.
The concept of sideloading is a general term that applies to multiple platforms, not something Apple owns or gets to dictate. No one is making up anything here.
www.twingate.com/blog/glossary/side-loading
dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/…/sideload
zimperium.com/glossary/sideloading
Etc.
If your argument requires cherry picking, ignoring key points, and baseless ad homenims, it’s not a good point.
I said Apple allows sideloading, you tried to correct me, and then changed your argument when you realized you were wrong. It’s just you not getting it.
Your “tools” that bypass the limitations set by apple wouldn’t even be relevant if they were real since you’re arguing with the factual statement that Apple allows you to sideload your apps, regardless of where you are in the world.
P.S. Even your links prove that you’re wrong about sideloading. Unless you’re now trying to argue there’s nothing official about governmentally mandated Apple-certified App Stores, in which case… just walk
No, Apple doesn’t generally allow you to sideload apps outside of the EU.
perplexity.ai/…/does-apple-officially-allow-si-TH… (Note that Perplexity cites sources)
If Apple officially allows sideloading outside of the EU, please show us the specific pages where Apple states you can sideload any app and the steps to do it? If you’re right, I’ll happily spin on a dime and support you and admit my mea culpa. I have no horse in this race, and I’ll be happy to learn something new. People think admitting they’re wrong is a weakness, when it’s actually a strength.
I didn’t try to correct you because nothing you wrote was wrong. All I did was try to add information to clarify to other readers what “somewhat” actually means so they have an idea what they might be getting into if they wanted to do it. You know, provide simple helpful extra information, so people don’t waste their time trying to find a feature they don’t have if they live outside the EU for example. You even agreed that there are limitations, and that people would have to fork out money to overcome some of them.
But if someone correcting you seems to upset to the point where you come out swinging a baseball bat over a trivial matter, maybe the internet isn’t the place for you just now.
I have no idea what you’re referring to here. So being vague again weakens your argument.
You seem to be stuck on this idea of Apple setting limitations. I said from the start there were limitations.
The tools are very real:
Again, you didn’t cite anything specific here in what I linked to. The definitions clearly supported that I wasn’t making anything up as you claimed. And all you did was repeat your claim which I’ve already addressed. You didn’t respond to my actual counterpoint or add any additional information. So again, this was vague and pointless.
Ok, this is getting ridiculous. You keep stating incorrect information, you’re relying on cherry picking, you’ve stooped to using yet another ad hominin weakening you argument, and you’re getting repetitive and vaguer with each new comment.
I’ve posted plenty of links to show the reality and limitations I originally mentioned, so people can read them and make up there own minds.
If sideloading wasn’t allowed, there would be no apps on the App Store If you read the links your AI provided you, you’d see they’re all confirming what I said. All of them.
Generally, common knowledge doesn’t need to be cited, so here:
developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/
developer.apple.com/…/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/
developer.apple.com/…/devicemanagement/
Also, you should probably learn what Ad Homenim is before trying to use it in a sentence en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
The fact is, and will always be, that Apple allows sideloading on all iphones in all regions, and their limits apply even in the EU. I’m sorry if you feel like that’s a personal attack.
And to finally, to address your attempt at changing subject (because you stopped being vague and finally admitted it), Jailbreaking is not within Apples rules (the hint is in the name). Hope this helps!
Man, did you even read the originally posted article? Did you understand it? Do you even know what sort of sideloading everyone is talking about here? Because it’s sure as hell is not app development deployment. Google isn’t going to ban that! And users aren’t going to fire up Xcode, unpack an app IPA binary, modify the bundle configuration, and sign it using their ID so it’ll run on their phone for just seven days. That takes developer-level skill which you said wasn’t necessary. Or they could instead use one of the tools I listed, but you didn’t even think they were real.
And none of the pages you linked to refer to “sideloading” except to say people can do it in the EU. Again, proving my point.
Plus I’ve already covered your whole argument here in my last comment. Did you read this link? If you did, you would have realized your argument was irrelevant and pointless.
perplexity.ai/…/for-people-living-outside-the-ycC…
It appears you don’t understand what an ad homenim is, because I laid it out for you. When you say someone is making something up or something isn’t real, rather than actually addressing the merits of their arguments, that’s text book ad hominem.
perplexity.ai/…/is-accusing-someone-of-making-7lw…
I never said it was. In fact, my first comment stated “…there are computer programs…,” and I’ve mentioned “tools” generally. Why would those phrases not include jail breaking programs and tools?
And of course it’s not allowed by Apple. That was my point. If you live outside the EU and you want to sideload apps generally as a user, you have to use a tool like those I listed, which obviously includes the option of jail breaking.
So you’re just reinforcing my point for me, like you’ve done multiple times already.
Yet again, you ignored nearly all of my key points, you added more misinformation and vagueness, you don’t appear to understand what it is we’re actually talking about, and you don’t understand the skill level or tools required for what you’re suggesting. So like I’ve mentioned, this could be a great learning experience for you with a bit of self-respect, but instead you prefer to keep highlighting your ignorance and misunderstanding. You might be fine with that despite the obvious downsides, in which case more power to you.
“This ad company restricting anything you can load is better than iOS” is decently a thing you can say hahahaha
I mean, there is still UI/UX, app store policies, and general cost/options.
This definitely makes Android a lot less appealing. But it is also questionable to act like the biggest reason to use android was sideloading apps since the vast majority of users don’t even know that is an option (and probably shouldn’t since they have no understanding of how to vet them). Especially since Apple isn’t any better (?).
Comrade, the ignorance of the masses should not dilute our anger
So… “the ignorance of the masses” should be combatted by willful ignorance and nonsense that falls apart the moment anyone looks at it?
Get angry. I sure am. Look for alternatives. Graphene sure ain’t it but I hope it will be in the next four or five years. But this is something google are willing to futz with for a reason: The vast majority of users don’t care about it and even with the changes it isn’t significantly worse than the competition.
Yet everywhere I see “Well, I guess I have to buy Apple now” which is just… buy it if you want to but don’t pretend this shit is why.
Ui/ux is honestly worse on android compared to something like ios. The playstore is honestly stuffed with ads and seems to be actively regressing in ux (the update apps menu is hidden behind like 3 layers of dialogues). Cost wise a used iPhone is probably a better deal than a cheap new android phone.
I used android primarily because I could install apps Apple basically doesn’t care about (and after the 5th time gba4ios broke).
Maybe it’s because I’m used to android, but iOS feels user hostile in ways that android never has been, especially when it comes to storage management and pushing iCloud subscriptions.
Well android phones dont have removable sd card slots anymore, the only way to transfer files is over the weird protocol that’s slower than directly writing to disk, if you use pixel or Samsung youre already inundated with annoying ads. The ecosystem is pretty awful now. Installing a custom rom is a good idea, but depending youre phone model it could be a step down and if your on any Samsung phone with knox it basically irreparably damages some attestation fuse. Apple ain’t much better. I might try a Linux phone next.
There is a lot wrong with android, but it’s super easy to transfer files over USB or just download them. I use Nextcloud personally. Then you can manipulate them with your choice of file manager.
I got a new phone recently, Samsung with Knox, the worst part about it so far compared to other Android has been how it is quick to kill background apps, and the UI is honestly disorienting compared to how I’m used to doing things. I haven’t been shown ads yet, but I did go ahead and disable all the Samsung apps I could find. This includes not being able to control how quickly it kills background apps, but it’s the lesser of two evils.
I’m not sure what Knox attestation is, but it sounds really unfortunate, and I want to search it now. I agree the phones of today are awful and the only reason I got this one was the price.
Unfortunately, that is 0.1% of their global market that is affected. So, they don’t really have much to lose.
Whatever things made people get into Android some 20 years ago are no longer relevant to the majority of people.
The biggest benefit will remain the apps. People love apps. In that regard, their only competition is Apple. It’s why no one can make a new phone OS.
The other reason is cost. If you want a cheap device, Apple has no such thing. There are hundreds of Android devices you can buy for a couple hundred dollars.
For those who buy Samsung flagships for more than an iPhone, well those people I can’t explain.
I can see apps becoming less important over time. PWAs were basically what Apple originally planed for the smartphone anyway and now they are capable of damn near anything you would want an app to do. No store to rely on. No updates to install. No storage space being eaten into. The browser engine functions as a layer of abstraction between the scary untrusted app and your own OS. It’s kinda perfect.
You might think so but PWAs have been around for a long time and seen very little adoption.
They haven’t been promoted or supported well until fairly recently. Also, Firefox is not compatible with PWAs but chrome, edge, and safari are.
They’ve been well-supported for many years.
Open Firefox and pin a PWA. I’ll wait.
Wait for what? I’ve done this many times.
Firefox doesn’t have PWA support. They pulled it years ago.
I don’t know about vanilla Firefox but I use IronFox and it works great so I suspect you’re wrong.
Holy crap, Firefox put it back in! askvg.com/enable-or-disable-pwa-support-and-add-t…
Do you mean pin as in creating a shortcut to the webapp on the homescreen/launcher?
Well, it could be explained before: Flagship hardware without the restrictions of iOS.
Now… After this bullshit… yeah…
Linux phones are moving fast but it feels like Android is moving faster on the other direction 😥
(Yes I know Android is built over Linux, I mean more traditional and open distros like postmarketos)
Are they moving fast? It’s been like 18 years since the iPhone came out and there really isn’t a viable Linux phone.
Wasn’t the viable Linux phone Android at first? (I am younger than the iPhone so maybe I don’t really know how it was)
By Linux I mean “FOSS” phone. Android is based on Linux, but it is also loaded with spyware out of the box. If you’d asked me 18 years ago whether there would be a viable FOSS phone by now, I would’ve thought yes. But, postmarketOS still advertises itself as “not ready yet” and Ubuntu Touch is still pretty niche.
There was a viable Linux phone 15 years ago: Nokia N900. Microsoft took care of that when they bought Nokia. At least Windows phone was a resounding success…
Yup my first thought was “Where is your God now?”
Google ditched “Don’t be evil” a long time ago.
Sure glad I de-googled with GrapheneOS that ironically runs on Pixel phones.
I’ve been hemming and hawing. Switched to Linux pretty much full time for my PC, this will push me 100% into FOSS phone. Over half my apps I use would get blocked
Consider many apps are just webpages. You can go to the website directly from a browser and everything is happy.
Obviously won’t solve everything, but that covers most apps right there.
That’s yet another trend that’s made me less and less interested in things. You’re not wrong though and will likely be my fall back
A lot of people cry about banking apps not working on phones that have been rooted/degoogled/whatever. But seriously, just use their website. The app is usually just a front end for the site anyway.
My credit union site doesn’t scale to mobile screens unfortunately. It is a massive pain in the ass to use the browser
Correction, looks like they finally updated it a few months ago to scale.
Mobile check deposit is about the only perk to the apps
That’s a good point.
and if you don’t use the app, they’ll force you to pay for second factor code SMSs each and every time you log in.
Who’s still being charged per SMS in 2025? Is that still a thing somewhere?
parts of the EU
Sure I can use my bank’s website (and it’s a shit experience) but they still want me to have their own app for authentication… Don’t even offer anything else at this point.
Now that the Pixel 10 is out, the Pixel 9 prices are falling. If you’re going to load GrapheneOS, you need to make sure you get a phone that has an unlocked bootloader, which is different than being carrier unlocked. Any phone that was initially sold through a carrier like Verizon or ATT will have a locked bootloader, as the carriers don’t like people messing with the phone software to unlock features that they may charge for (e.g. hotspot).
That’s a good point for the future, but I meant on my Pixel 6a and I bought it directly through Google.
Well then, you’re already all set. Google edition phones all have unlocked bootloaders. I’m currently running a Pixel 6 Pro with GrapheneOS. It’s super easy to install and use, even if you’ve never messed with your phone before. I’ve been looking to potentially upgrade to a newer phone, because mine is a few generations old and Graphene doesn’t support phones forever, though they do for quite a while. An unlocked Pixel 9 Pro is around $550-650 right now, but I’ll probably wait another 6 months, as the prices will probably fall another $100-$200 in that time frame.
Be careful. I’ve read reports of at least two Pixel 6a devices bursting into flames.
My mom has a Pixel 7 we are replacing because it gets incredibly hot for no apparent reason.
Google has actually released a software update to try to prevent the modem battery issue and are replacing the battery in affected models for free. Rare easy win from a megacorp
Even after the software update a battery caught fire.
this is doubtless going to hurt whatever third party app store it is that you use anyway. if the only places sideloaded apps are available on, the only options are that custom roms like graphene become more popular, or apps that refuse to be put on Google will dry up.
which do you feel is more likely?
so basically i have to send in my id to google just to sideload a test apk i made in flutter to my own phone to test it out?
Just like apple. 😔
Ad it’s just another data point for corporations and governments to be able to tie all your tech activities to your real identity. Great for surveillance!
and if it will work like the play store, you will need to upload an apk* and download the signed version, so it’s not even immediately obvious if they changed anything.
* not really an apk but an intermediate build product
Meanwhile back at the ranch
www.theregister.com/2025/…/apps_android_malware/
Google can’t keep malware off the platform now, but sure, make it mandatory you can’t go anywhere else unless they say so first.
Right, only install “verified” from Google Play, but that is where malware is, other 3rd party app stores like F-Droid, that really verify apps are at risk of getting killed by Google
This is very obviously step one in a plan to kill apps like alternative YouTube clients that block ads, just like the Manifest V3 rollout was intended to kill ad blockers in Chrome. Once they have everyone using this verification system, then they can just arbitrarily deverify anything that contravenes whatever new acceptable usage policy they just made up.
The opensource apps like Newpipe, SmartTube, termux and many others are the “malware”, not the ones with binary blobs on PlayStore that fork VLC, Newpipe and many opensource apps illegally, supposedly “verified” but don’t follow opensource license like GPL, creating fake clones with ads and (real) malware.
itwire.com/…/81652-google-ignores-licence-violati…
The moment I don't get to run my own stuff and F-Droid, I'll be switching off smartphones.
I’ll use the ugliest command line only smartphone over fully walled garden android
Real talk, are there ones like that?
Ive seen things like https://www.tindie.com/products/zitaotech/hackberrypi5-with-9900-keyboard/ and I REALLY want one....but they are always sold out.
I don’t know, sorry
That looks simple enough to build yourself.
There’s plenty DIY projects around the net with various raspberry models. You just need some knowledge, preferably access to a 3D printer, an soldering iron, some tools and other bits and bobs. It’s definetly doable, but I can understand if someone prefers to throw some money on the table and get one pre-built.
I'll probably go with one of the other roms on an older phone or possibly one of the Linux phones. It won't be exactly what I want, but it'll be better than their walled garden bullshit. That's precisely why I left Apple way back when.
Or we just… ignore them?
LineageOS and GrapheneOS could just be like “well, go on, then.”
There’s a market for everything and the FOSS and maker markets would eat up an open Android phone, even if the only apps you could install were community-created.
Those would be great if they worked on cheap handsets. TracFone users should have better security too
Dumbphone with tethering
A mini laptop/cyberdeck
A modern mp3 player
A small, modern point and click camera
hey gramps, where’d you get that gear, 2007?
It's not a cyberdeck unless I have trodes and a halo, chummer. But some kind of netbook would be great.
I had an Asus Eee PC and I fuckin’ loved it. Is there anyone still making a functional laptop in that form factor anymore?
I don't know, but if you find one, let me know. Because if Asus made a new one under their ROG branding, I think I'd be willing to pay the extra cost.
Damn I’m gonna need cargo pants to carry all this
Didn’t they just lose a major lawsuit over their treatment of sideloaded apps and stores?
that was apple, I believe.
Apple has EU problems. Google got legally fucked in the US with the Epic lawsuit.
Oh that’s right, I forgot about that one. Apparently they don’t feel that lawsuit applies though.
Is that even legal? Monopolistic behaviour.
Like anyone cares outside of EU.
of course it is. apple has been doing it from the very beginning. now android gets the same walled garden.
The US Government hasn’t given a shit about harmful monopolistic practices in a long time. They only pretend to care from time to time to force large companies to start donating to politicians.
“A long time” would be “Since Trump got back in”, since Biden’s administration was actually doing a lot to tackle monopolies. They just did a shit job of advertising what they were doing.
Right, because the single anti-trust action against Microsoft in the 90s is definitely all that was justified during the rise of the tech giants.
the biden admin was not in the 90s. look up Lina Khan.
Okay? My point is that it’s absurd to say that the USFG has been hard on monopolies until Trump’s second term.
“
Don’tBe Evil”They removed that a long time ago. I mean think about it, evil is a pretty strong term, most people don't want to be evil. That they chose to remove it from their motto tells you everything.
Finally. This will give a laaaarge boost to harmony os based phones (Huawei) saying Americans goodbye
You know, while I was never under the illusion that the US was issue free, it used to be that I didn’t want to buy a chinese phone because of the foreign spying. Now though, my own country is making it so that I’d rather take foreign spying over homegrown. Hope I can grab a pixel 9 soon so that I can use Graphene and dodge both.
Isn’t it against the EU’s DSA?
Yes, probably why this wont affect EU users.
Ode an die Freude starts playing in the background
Same outcome as with their search engine, same thing with Chrome, Youtube and many other Google products. They built up their user base with a solid product (or bought it), and then started shitting all over their users by making horrible decisions and inserting all sorts of dark patterns in the name of “security” or whatever else pretense. I’m still hoping another entity steps up and fills the vacuum that Android leaves behind.
Hello, I would like 1 Class Action please.
If you sue now you can get a second lawsuit for free!
nah, you waived your rights to class action lawsuits on page 178 section 2.4 subsection b) paragraph 5) when you clicked accept on the first time setup screen of your phone.
Mobile desperately needs hardware with first class open source drivers and firmware to get away from Google/Apple/Microsoft controlled software platforms. Phones have been super powerful for a long time beyond what most need. We can take hit in theoretical peak performance to build up a better ecosystem until the market is large enough that the big money has to address the market
It exists and will exist for a pretty hefty premium. Not because the makers want to. But frankly the interest in owning and controlling your hardware is more rare than we'd like. So like any niche hobby the hardware will be expensive.
Let Google know what you think: docs.google.com/forms/d/e/…/viewform
Does anyone read these or does it just go through ai?
Who knows anymore? But I’d rather say something than accept it silently.
Oh hell yeah, I hope this means an exodus of people forking the latest open source software they can, or if not moving to Linux mobile altogether
Edit:
I had meant that I’d like it if people flocked from developing android to developing Linux mobile. I should have clarified that.
If we could have a solidly performing Linux mobile that has the capability of docking into a full desktop OS, that shit would be an absolute game changer for personal computers.
Linux mobile is interesting but not ready yet.
Ah yeah, I had meant that I’d like it if people flocked from developing android to developing Linux mobile. I should have clarified that.
If we could have a solidly performing Linux mobile that has the capability of docking into a full desktop OS, that shit would be an absolute game changer for personal computers.
Developers are busy being proud and hating each other
I don’t think there’s that many abdroid rom developers
Not ready but if Google and all the manufacturers kill custom ROMs, everyone will have to switch to Linux or another OS. It’s not like Linux on the desktop where Windows is still acceptable.
Linux mobile phones won’t have to be ready if smartphones become un-ready.
Thats not how most people work.
Just because there’s a problem, doesn’t mean people seek a solution.
Thats why the majority of people in this country. They can each admit there is a problem. But they do nothing about it. Most don’t even try to diet or exercise.
And you want them to switch to an unfinished linux phone system. They aren’t going to do that over this change. The vast majority don’t use more than 5 apps. What do they care? For most, the cell phone is the replacement for a pc, snd all its used for is to text, and go on tiktok and instagram.
The changes you’re suggesting will work well for a certain crowd. That crowd is maybe 5% of the general population. The rest won’t even notice. And if they did, they’d just put up with it.
Please read my comment below, editing above too
Give me something like the OG Moto Droid, or hell make it a tablet and I have to carry a bag, I don’t care.
That would be my device for everything. I just remote into everything else anyway.
Oof, time to bite the bullet and switch email providers. Shit like this is why I’ve spent the last couple years de-googling my life.
Do it! It's not that bad. Everyone's got different needs, but I switched to fastmail and have been enjoying it.
If you’re making the switch anyway, get yourself a domain name from a separate company to run it through. That way in the future you can keep using your domain even if you switch mail/web-hosting providers.
I have a domain and an email address through it, but my problem is I can't find a domain name I like enough to both keep and give out to others as a long term contact point. The one I have right now is silly, and not easy to communicate over the phone.
It's a me problem, but if I ever figure out something I'm will to keep and is available, that's the goal.
Have two:
The silly one for personal or non-professional stuff like Steam
The professional one for the ones you are meeting irl.
Yeah, that's the part I'm having trouble with. Can't decide on something serious, easy to communicate and that I like. Definitely a me problem.
How about “MyEmailDomainDotComButThatWasTheWordDotNotADotSymbolDot.com” - super easy to communicate
Damn, someone beat me to it!
The domain I use professionally is simply my full name. Then I use a catch-all so I can give out a mailbox specific to who it’s for. Often that looks like YourCompany@MyName.com That way if I get spammed I know who to blame.
Two minor concerns about this approach:
Will the lesser known domain name make your emails more likely to be filtered as spam? I don’t know the answer, but I am fairly sure it wouldn’t help.
Will having your email routed through a middleman open up security issues? Probably solveable with diligence and awareness, but I recently had a non-technical friend with this setup get his Gmail breached because he was forwarding it to an email inbox on his personal domain from decades earlier that he forgot about, and didn’t have 2FA on the domain webmail. IMHO an easy oversight for anyone, honestly.
Modern business strategy be like “If you’re not building an illegal monopoly, consider doing so for more money”
I hope MS doesn’t start doing this to Windows or else that would kill WINE/Proton, and also severely harm Windows itself given how deeply sideloading exes or msi files is ingrained into that OS.
Didn't the old arm version of windows have this limitation though? It only ran signed exes with a chain of trust?
I feel like this is probably where things might be heading overall "for our safety". People saying it's only the pixel. It's only the pixel so far. And I think Samsung are locking up bootloaders too. I fully expect both to become the norm.
Oh you'll be able to get a phone that isn't locked this way. With 4 generations out of date hardware at twice the price of the current flagship because it's a niche product they just can not make at scale to be affordable.
Also I've said it elsewhere, local/personal compute is something I fully expect to become a rare and expensive hobby too.
And custom-built PCs are already getting priced further and further out of the market for everyone who isn’t rich; mini PCs are slowly taking over the budget segments, and even some of the mid-range as well.
Next step if it’s allowed to get that far would be locking out alternate OSes after upgradeable PCs are all but eliminated except for HEDT.
They could lock out any other os but windows if they wanted. Mobo makers just need to limit to secure boot only, not allow legacy boot. Only allow the Microsoft key and Microsoft to stop signing the Linux shim. Then it'd not be possible to install Linux or anything else really.
Not going to happen short term. But definitely a possibility.
Why would Linux have to respect the certificates? Run whatever random software you want!
maybe it could even turn out to be a sometimes useful measure there with the slight change of placing the decision in the hands of the user.
Democracy is dead. Welcome to the neo dark ages. Take up arms.
Well, I mean, we have yet to see an actual serious cyberattack right? Aren’t security needs going to increase, not decrease?
The ability to filter information using proprietary devices and software in the kernel of all of these garbage devices is the core issue. Trusting the owners of that code is to surrender your right to unbiased and unfiltered information. I am not at all concerned about hacking or security by small insignificant players. I am massively concerned about the extremely powerful using the leverage they have normalized and embedded to become tyrannical neo feudal lords in a fascist society. Google IS the biggest danger by orders upon orders of magnitude. Trusting them is to give up democracy entirely.
All mobile devices are proprietary. Android is a scheme to make a Linux kernel that has everything ready to deploy except the actual hardware drivers for the processor and modem. Manufacturers take this kernel and add their proprietary binaries at the last possible moment. That source code is not available anywhere. The hardware documentation is not available anywhere publicly. Every device model is just different enough that reverse engineering one does nothing transferable to any other. The level of reverse engineering is extreme and requires destroying many devices using things like fuming nitric acid and fluorine solutions just to have a small chance at reading some parts of embedded memory. These are some of the most dangerous and hazardous chemicals humans make, and you still need xray equipment, special microscopes with stepping automation to stitch images, and a ton of time. This is moving to a tyrannical surveillance state of fascist authoritarianism. Open source software is a major front on the line of real democracy. This is a nuclear bomb released on that democracy. You fear the wrong pirates and criminals. The biggest threats always come from within. Trust as a mechanism is fundamentally antithetical to democracy. Everyone demanding trust is a traitor to democracy. Trust is the key of the fascist kingdom. Once that key is held, democracy has failed regardless of whomever is aware of the situation. Democracy requires fully informed citizens with skepticism and the liberal right to decide for themselves even when they are wrong. This is impossible without full access to information. The source of that information cannot be filtered at any level. We already have the narrowest bottleneck of available information sources in the last 1000 years of history. There are only 2 relevant web crawlers. All search queries filter through one or both of these two and the results from these are not deterministic. Two people searching for the same thing at the same time will get very different and very biased results. This is individualized regardless of any protections people imagine they have in place. Outside of the internet there is no real unbiased media. A dozen people own it all. Even the garbage claiming to comb all sources is drawing the line and dictating what is center right or left is. Anyone at the grassroots level is impossible to find because there are no organic unbiased search results. The results are all filtered junk full of agenda and bias. This is the real big picture abstract issue in play. When the maga traitors said this was a coup, they absolutely ment that. Mobile devices are all rental garbage someone else controls. Your computer likewise has a secret operating system running in the background that you do not control. In Intel it is called the Intel Management Engines or ME. This started with Intel VPro in 2008. AMD adopted it is 2013. Arm has one too. All that is left is to steal your right to have a digital front door by eliminating DNS filtering and all of these devices will be controlled and connected directly by someone else that is watching and listening at all times. You are already in tethers as a digital slave that can be bought and sold for exploitation and manipulation without your consent or knowledge using your digital presence. You have not effectively realized the implications of that surrendering of rights to citizenship with full autonomy. The next step is to redefine the word citizen to be functionally equivalent to slave. “You will own nothing, and you will be happy about it” because if you are not, you will be dead. This is the death of democracy. My words will echo in your head years from now. The dystopia to come is beyond anything you can presently imagine and there is no way to stop it now short of taking up arms and playing Luigi if you are able. The consolidation of wealth is what really made Caesar. That was the death of the republic. It was not Caesar. We are all a product of our time and environment. It was the consolidation of great wealth. All that wealth did not give a shit about Rome, it went to Constantinople for better opportunities at first chance because consolidation of wealth is treasonous. It is as it was, just look at outsourcing and off shoring, or the disgusting mismanagement of banking and housing that have made the A
Increasingly, I think people like yourself should be working to develop systems that don’t just use all this shit. Or systems that use the old shit that doesn’t have all of this modern baggage you speak of.
I know it seems impossible. But it also seems like no one is trying.
honestly the hardware seems to be the harder part. for software we could just fork android and tear out the restrictive parts.
For sure. Especially if you want all the modern features, low energy usage profiles, speed, compactness. Etc
I can see why nerds that see what is happening in great detail go off the way they do.
I’m probably going to spam this around a bit, since most people don’t seem to know about it, but a reminder that FuriLabs has a (GNU+)Linux phone with decent spec.s and the ability to run Android app.s (from what I’ve heard) pretty decently: furilabs.com
Biggest drawback is it’s based on Halium. Usual growing pains of a new product/company apply but apparently the company is pretty responsive and their dev.s have worked with customers to get things like calling working with the carrier and bands of their country where it hasn’t worked before so improvements move pretty quickly.
Collection of different experiences I’ve variously seen online over the last year or so:
I don’t own one, myself, so I can’t give any personal experience but I’ve seen it around for a few years now but most people don’t seem to even know about it. Maybe there’s a reason for that? But none I’ve ever seen anyone say.
HOLY SHIT IS THAT A HEADPHONE JACK?!
Seriously this ticks boxes Ive given up on. I never thought Id see a phone with all three: waterproof, removable battery, headphone jack. It even has wireless charging which isnt really one of my boxes but is a little extra if you use it.
Looks good but it’s too bulky.
Yeah; that’s totally fair. Mostly, I just want to get it more known; whenever Mobile Linux come up, people namedrop Purism, the Pinephone, maybe UBPorts and the general conclusion is that the spec.s, alone, of what’s available are pretty much a non-starter.
There’s definitely aspects of this phone that some people wouldn’t go for but I’d rather sales be limited by not-the-right-choice than just no one knew it existed; especially when any progress can get sent upstream and improve future projects, as well.
I didnt care so much about bulky before but now I have wrist issues and I can’t handle heavy phones (and I am in a LDR for a few months more so the phone is used heavily!)
Wow, thanks for this comment, I think I may have finally found my next phone! I did not expect Linux with android, wireless charging, NFC, and hopefully one day display out. Thanks for commenting!
Great. This could be just the boost that free android needs. Graphene and eos can brace for a few new customers i guess
Graphene developers seem enthusiastic to all the bullshit that Google comes up with, and on security/privacy tradeoff they seem to usually choose security. Case in point, the mandatory battery update.
CalyxOS seems to choose privacy first, but that project folded recently.
It didn’t fold. They are just reorganizing. Don’t spread misinformation.
I’ve been using graphene for a few months, but this latest news was what reminded me to start a monthly donation to the project. Hopefully Googles shenanigans push more people towards funding alternatives as well
I’ve gotta get a new phone soon (ol Pixel 3 is getting long in the tooth) and this is what I’m looking at too. I highly prefer the “default” Android UI, and the ability to install programs of my own choosing — but fuck Google, imagine getting locked out of your phone just because Google randomly unpersoned you.
Good luck and wisdom in choosing. I picked a fairphone and went for /e/os. No reason to regret that yet. Just does what it says on the tin
Wasn’t Apple sued for not allowing sideloading?
You will be able sideload but the developer has to be authorized by Google. I.e. you can still install apps from f-droid but people publishing apps on f-droid will have to register with Google.
.
I dont have an issue with a feature to allow my phone to automatically veirfy signatures. But there should be a way to import/configure more signature verification providers including my own authority and even then it should still allow imstall if user really want and trust it.
Of course, the real issue is that it requires developers to sing up into Google’s ecosystem to distribute any apps. The entire ecosystem of mods and alternative stores will be fine but it’s just another proof Google is trying to kill it.
This might be an issue because f-droid re-signs apps with their own keys…
I mean depends on enforcement I guess.
Did some research and here are your options:
Personally, I will stick with GrapheneOS for now (my Pixel still has at least 6 years of support). When I’m unable to run all the apps I need on it I will switch to two phones setup: stock Android for work/car apps, some Linux phone for everything else. When my Pixel dies I will switch to iPhone.
Google has already started killing GrapheneOS by removing device trees from AOSP releases. Android 16 works fine, but for how long?
I would imagine the first thing any custom ROM would do is bypass Google’s app restrictions.
I wouldn’t be surprised if in 3 years I would need to pass hardware attestation to install a calculator app from the Play store.
GrapheneOS still intends to support all the supported devices until EOL. The sideloading change doesn’t affect them. It won’t apply to GrapheneOS. It only applies to certified OSes and GrapheneOS is not certified because it doesn’t license Google Mobile Services. As per the rip out of the device trees for Pixels, that just makes Pixels like other phones. GrapheneOS has been able to expand it’s automation to build that device support themselves. For new devices, making the support will take longer than it did in the past though, but they will still support those Pixels, as long as they meet the hardware requirements and still allow third-party OS support with all security features intact. Besides that GrapheneOS is actively talking with a major Android OEM right now in order to help them reach the security requirements for a subset of their future devices. They are very optimistic about tha
Its Nothing Phone right? It has to be, LG is dead, Sony has a niche, Samsung can get fucked, Moto is budget, HMD wants to be Nokia but I just dont see it, Asus?
I’m not going to participate in speculation and rumouring about this. I have an idea about who it might be myself but prefer to not talk about it. Negotations/talks are still ongoing.
AlrightKeepYourSecrets.gif
Those restrictions don’t apply to custom ROMs. Yes, it’s clear Google is trying to kill custom ROMs but I think we still have couple of years. Linux phones are improving fast and I think in 5 years we will end up in the same spot we were with PCs 20 years ago: you will be able do most of daily driving on a Linux phones but some apps just won’t be possible to run (Authenticator apps, banking apps, Whats App, Android Auto…). Dual booting will not be possible so most probably I will end up with two phones: daily driver and work/car phone.
There are not going to be apps on Linux phones.
Definitely not banking apps.
Tbh situation looks dire as fuck.
Use a bank with a good web interface…
Sorry most people won’t be choosing bank based on that
I guess bitcoin finally has a usecase /s
Well, most people use iOS or android, so we are talking about a very specific and dedicated bunch here.
Some places are killing the web interface entirely and going app-only.
As very often is said: vote with your wallet and avoid those (assuming it’s important to you).
Not with that attitude!
Get either your political ass to demand that in your country banks support more than just two OSes, or your coding ass so that you can get into programming work pipeline and one day code the Flatpak for your bank. Either would benefit you and everyone else.
What’s a good custom ROM for a Samsung Fold 7? Just bought one and it’s my dream phone so so I don’t want to give it up so soon already, just so I can watch YouTube without ads. Planned on keeping it for at least the next 4-5 years…
If you want custom roms, you have a fairly restricted set of options for phones.
If you want to use custom ROMs you have to check support before buying a phone. Fold 7 is not supported by any custom ROMs from what I can see. Also, I’m pretty sure you can just use Fennec with Adblock on stock Android and not have ads.
You really should have thought about that before buying the device. You cannot install a custom ROM on my Samsung device anymore.
You always have to look at what devices custom ROMs support BEFORE buying them.
Why would I think about that? I’ve never needed one until now.
What are u talking about. Were u living under a rock? - Google killed off most custom roms
Ffs if I have to move to apple before the third option is stable.
I will forever lament my windows phone. Ironically, it was the only option that didn’t need to be rooted to do custom shit. You could just screw with the registry and program with .net and direct X
It didn’t live long enough to become a villan
I’m surprised how Microsoft just took all of Google’s deliberate sabotages without any fuss.
Though in the end what really put the nail on the coffin was Pokémon Go.
I kinda miss my BlackBerry.
Kinda? More like deeply.
Hands down the best experience I have had on a phone was my z10. Over 10 years later, and I still use BlackBerry’s keyboard.
I never had a blackberry, but my HTC Desire Z was peak typing. You slide the keyboard out and have a full keyboard. I typed very fast on that thing, every phone I got after that sucked at typing.
This phone upload.wikimedia.org/…/HTC_Desire_Z_overview.jpg
That keyboard looks sweet!
androidauthority.com/blackberry-classic-revive-an…
Me too. Great hardware and basic productivity apps.
But the whole systen was even more locked down than Android.
Do any alternatives allow using banking apps or android pay or android auto?
I realize there are no substitutes for banking apps, but are there any alternatives for android auto or pay if those cannot be installed? Preferably Linux alternatives.
Seriously, I see these custom Android Auto USB Sticks that people use to watch Netflix and I just want to know how they hooked into the APIs to do that
/e/OS works with most, according to this list.
The founder of /e/OS has a blog where he talks about alternative payment solutions, and he mentions Curve being one.
I just recently ordered the Fairphone with /e/OS, and will be looking into this myself soon enough…
Curve is not available in US and has terrible reviews on Play store.
I’d switch in a heartbeat, but I can’t live without a smart watch and having to pay with physical cc again would be a massive downgrade.
I have a suspicion that all the android clones will become a much worse/unusable experience once Google implements these changes.
Availability in the US might be a bit of a challenge, as the Google/Apple duopoly has solidified greatly over the years there. Europe has the entire BoycottUS movement these days, so there are a lot of attempts at developing something independent there. But as with most new solutions, they have the added difficulty of being compared to these bigger companies who’ve already had many years to develop and perfect their solutions.
The choice boils down to how much you value your principles over comforts, and whether downgrading to physical cards is worth it. Personally I’ve recently done just that.
In regards to Android clones becoming worse, I saw GrapheneOS say on Mastodon that it won’t affect them in any significant way. Hopefully this is the case for most, and will remain the case.
The substitutes for banking apps are banking websites. If your bank does not allow you to use your bank from a website, you should switch banks. I did.
FYI: Apple got sued for blocking other app stores. This would prevent f-droid from being installable
f-droid would be verified right?
It’d be up to Google to do so, and they probably will just as an example of them totally not being a monopoly “look we even allowed a competing store”.
I will pay hard cash money for some devs to bring postmarketos to quality hardware vendors.
I’m all for buying a pinephone, but man are we missing out on the full potential from some genuinely good OEM hardware stuff like razr flip.
Aside from google doing google things, android has been a bloated java pos toy OS for nearly a decade now. It completely wastes the full potential of superior hardware by running everything on a shitty JVM known as the ART that was designed for when devices had <512mb of RAM. A Nintendo 3DS can do better multi process tasking than modern android which regularly kills app threads for no reason other than to screw with you because you dared to switch to a different app for 5 seconds.
Android was supposed to be the big apple killer because of its closeness to a desktop OS with heavy emphasis on widespread features and functionality. Even technically speaking, rooting got you there if you wanted to run whatever straight on the linux environment or swap kernels.
Its nothing but a ripoff iOS clone now. Android 7/8 was probably the peak of development and usability, and even back then people were complaining it didn’t have groundbreaking improvements like 6 or lollipop.
I don’t think that it’s the lack of quality hardware what is stopping adoption of Linux on phones. There are many resons why I don’t consider someting like PostmarketOS viable as a daily driver for most.
First of all some apps are just not available on Linux. Banking apps are a prime example. Most banks are now requiring some form of app where I live and they don’t even consider Linux. But that’s also another problem in it self.
Secondly: driver support. Drivers aren’t something one thinks about when talking about phones. But they are needed and mobile phones being what they are, most manufacturers aren’t really open to do anything in that regard.
As an Android developer I’m also annoyed by the restrictive power management of Android. But it’s there for a reason. On PostmarketOS my phone would be dead after sitting around all day doing noting. On Android I can maybe squeeze two to three days of use out of the same phone. And that’s not even with the OEM rom.
That being said, I hope for a future were all of the current issues can be solved and we finally have a viable alternative to Apple and Google.
To be clear, I’m in no way trying to defend what Google is doing.
I honestly don’t care about apps. I switched to GrapheneOS and opted to not use Google Play Services, so my app selection is very limited, especially for things like banking apps. It turns out I can just use the website for the vast majority of them, and I can fill in the gaps with FDroid apps.
The main things stopping me from using a Linux phone (eg PostmarketOS) are:
I don’t need a flagship with top tier driver support, I just need basic phone things to work. I’m even okay with poor camera quality, provided I can take pictures of things and clearly read the text later. I don’t need much in terms of app support, and I’m willing to help port things I need. But my phone needs to work as a phone, and it needs to do so all day without needing to charge until night.
The only way to log into my bank on the website is to use the phone two factor authentication app, which only works with Google Play Services… 💩
I’m considering getting a dedicated login device which can sit on my desk all day doing nothing else.
Which 2FA app is that? I use Aegis (replaces Google Authenticator, available on FDroid) and Symantec VIP (from Google Play, but via Aurora and runs w/o Google Play Services). Is it something different?
Most of them don’t support generic 2FA codes and sadly require some sort of proprietary app that talks to their servers. Setting them up usually also requires some sort of identification; think receiving a pin in the post. As far as I can tell, the only other option for me is to rent some sort of pin generation terminal from the bank which is, of course, ridiculously expensive.
That sucks.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) banks here (US) generally only support SMS 2FA and occasionally support email, and a handful use the their app (but fall back to SMS).
I actually switched to Fidelity (a brokerage) as a primary bank because they were the only one I could find that supported real MFA using the Symantec VIP app, which fortunately works fine without Google Play Services.
In Sweden, all the major banks joined together and created BankId. It is now pretty much a monopoly on id verification. Even some government agencies use it, which is problematic for multiple reasons.
Debate by former PM: www.svd.se/a/…/utredare-infor-statligt-bank-id
Edit: typos
Yeah, I tried to use it as my daily driver a while back and what bugged me most was the terrible battery efficiency. Running the full desktop version of Firefox certainly didn’t help. At that point the camera also didn’t have any drivers. Since theres been some progress and we now have a work in progress driver for that model. Frankly it’s amazing that this works at all and I’m incredibly grateful for anyone working on this.
I’ve actually been rather lucky and managed to convince most of my friends to join me on Signal so we barely need to rely on SMS anymore. But last time I checked there weren’t any real Signal clients availabe for Linux phones. Of course, one could always use the desktop version but that still requires a phone to be linked to. Someone has managed to get the Matrix/Signal bridge working and rely on Matrix for the final delivery but that seems like too much tinkering for me :D
Don’t get me wrong, I think the work that’s been done is amazing, my point is that it’s still not daily driver ready. I want to help out, I just don’t have the time anymore with a full-time job and kids. If it was daily drive-able, I could probably spare a few hours here and there to improve things (port apps, track down bugs, etc).
I hope it gets there before I need a new phone. Last year I switched to a Pixel 8 for GrapheneOS and cut out most of my Google Play apps, so I should be good for a few years, but I’d very much like to ditch Android entirely next time.
For now, I got my SO to use Signal, but that’s it.
EU: How often do I have to teach you, old man?
EU: Thank you Google for complying with the DSA.
commission.europa.eu/…/digital-services-act_en
This is a a huge part of it, the whole “prevent illegal” parts.
The EU isn’t going to punish them for this, they will hold this up as the golden standard.
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/2241174a-6bbb-4b5c-b6bb-2c184ea95e9d.jpeg">
Inside the EU’s chest there are two wolves.
Just as they did with Apple when they forced them to allow sideloading? So yeah, the EU will push massively against this if its implemented there.
Where does it say that Google is blocking all side loading?
It says they are blocking the installing of unsigned apps. This is the macOS Gatekeeper being the only option on Android. You can still download and install apps that aren’t in the Play Store. So the EU will still love this as 3rd party apps can still exist, but at the same time anything “illegal” can be reported to them immediately.
It’s effectively becoming the gate keeper in the same way apple only allowing app installs through its app store only is a gate keeper.
They are gatekeeping which apps you can install, not the installation method.
Which is just the loophole they’re trying to use now to assert control. This is just technicalities, the end result is that if you want to make apps for others to install they want to be the final say on you being allowed to do that or not.
You mean when they forced Apple to implement the “trusted trader” scheme.
No, i mean when they forced apple to open their IOS system to side loading custom, unverified apps.
Here, have a read:
support.apple.com/en-gb/117767
The trusted trader scheme only applies if you want to distribute your app via the official apple iOS app store.
The DSA requires people offering apps (“traders”) to provide certain information. For example: address, email, and phone number must be made public. When Apple introduced that, this also caused some outrage and calls for EU regulation. Despite the fact that this was exactly the regulation called for. Hence, why I mentioned that trusted trader scheme.
Google may be legally required to do this. I’m not sure how the DSA is to be interpreted on this. It’s certainly not a stretch (see Article 31). It’s out of touch to believe the EU will push against this.
Okay aber schau mal. Die EU hat Apple Verklagt und gezwungen, Nicht-Registrierte, nicht gemeldete Apps und sogar Appstores auf IOS verfügbar zu machen. Für die Apps dort muss niemand irgendwas angeben, du kannst dir einfach irgendeine App von Github kopieren und auf deinem IPhone ausführen, dank dem Urteil von vor c.a. 10 Monaten.
Warum sollte dann jetzt, wenn Google das Sideloaden von Custom Apps streichen möchte, die EU plötzlich fein damit sein? Ich meine, sie haben in einem langen Prozess Apple dazu gezwungen, genau das zu ermöglichen und die Monopolstellung als einziger App-Distributor angeklagt.
Und das spannende ist ja: Diese Entscheidung wurde nach August 2023 getroffen, also nach der offiziellen Einführung und Anwendung des DSA. Heißt: Hier wurde entschieden das Sideloaden kein Bruch des DSA’s darstellt.
Hast du da eine Quelle dazu? Soweit ich weiß, verlangt Apple, dass alle Apps “notarized” sein müssen. Also das, was Google jetzt auch einführt.
Für Apps im offiziellen Store ist das explizit EU-Vorschrift. Warum sollte die EU was dagegen haben, wenn das freiwillig ausgedehnt wird (falls es freiwillig ist)?
Stimmt - Du hast recht.
Laut Apple Hier müssen die Apps tatsächlich verifiziert sein, auch wenn sie über alternative Wege distributiert werden.
Das wusste ich nicht, ich habe das damals so verstanden, dass die Apps nicht zertifiziert sein müssen und installiert werden können wie bei Android.
Hm. Na super. Dann wird die EU wohl nicht dagegen vorgehen, im Gegenteil. Dachte das wäre unter dem Digital Markets Act anders… Na da freu ich mich ja schon drauf
The Cyber Resilience Act may also have something to do with this.
The EU waltz.
One step forward.
One step to the left.
Two steps to the right.
Three steps back.
Repeat.
EU is moving full steam ahead toward the end of “private” computers and mandatory state surveillance on your devices. They’ll be delighted with that. The funky “hey, we’re consumer friendly” times are over.
Where are all the open source phone OSes? Where are the OS agnostic capable hardware phones? Technically some do exist, but I don’t think they have any significant market share. Hope I’m wrong though.
Essentially every browser that’s not Firefox or Safari is reskinned Google chrome for a reason. Because it’s insanely expensive to build and maintain browsers. Mobile operating systems aren’t much different in this regard.
That’s not exactly true. There are several FOSS mobile OSes, such as PostmarketOS, Mobian, Ubuntu Touch, and the various Android ROMs. Once it’s compatible, keeping that OS updated is relatively simple.
The issues with mobile OSes are:
Basically, supporting a new phone has a lot of upfront work with very little ongoing work.
Web browsers, on the other hand, need to stay updated with constantly shifting web standards, they’re a huge malware target so they need to keep up on CVEs, and pages are getting more complex causing performance and rendering issues, and everyone blames the browser. Supporting a new platform is generally trivial, but the ongoing work is immense.
They’re very different beasts.
Not to mention just about every “serious” app (gov’t, banking, etc) check safetynet before even turning on. (Hell I’ve had a gov’t app refuse to start because I had developer options enabled, on a completely ‘clean’ phone)
So emulating them isn’t gonna work and websites do not always prioritize working on mobile anymore (“just install the app”)
Yeah, YMMV certainly applies. But the good news is you can try it out on your current phone before committing.
Google slowly suffocated all the 3rd party rom vendors.
They are in the same room with all the third-party support for them, ESPECIALLY from state-built applications that are increasingly being required to do administration stuff and mandatory banking apps that are required for online payment and even opening their websites these days.
That room does not exist.
In the “waiting for funding” room.
If people don’t care enough to finance projects like Fairphone, etc… while they are still in the growing pains, then those projects will never be able to last during a digital consumer war, let alone provide a product that has enough mass appeal that it makes sense to build and commercialize on auto.
Modern tech markets are broken. We need a new type of economy.
Not a new one. The solution to capitalism was posted long ago. We just need to admit it.
If you have the ability to, don’t use a smartphone. You’ll be better off and you don’t have to care about stuff like this anymore.
For real, when this thing rolls out, I’m going to stop updating and try to still use my foss apps for as long as they still work, once my phone eventually becomes useless I’m not going to spend 400 on an expensive phone just so I can run custom roms. I will have to just get used to not having a computer in my pocket all the time again.
I wish I had… Got me a VoLTE capable feature phone and tried but it’s insanely difficult to get people to understand that you’re only available on call or SMS now (+no MMS here) lol
Ok this needs harsh pushback, because phones are affordable, computers are not. There needs to be a massive project dealing with making phones platform agnostic.
Have you shopped for those items recently? You have 200 buck computers and 2000 buck phones.
Yep but also 200 buck phones.
Yeah, definitely. My point is that phones are not inherently more affordable than computers, like it was 20 years ago.
My current phone, a Pixel 7a, cost me around 350€ (let’s say it’s roughly the same in $). There is definitely cheaper options. And most of these options will give you a decent phone.
A $200 computer will bring you to basic office stuff and playing facebook games.
A 350€ computer will be capable of similar computing power as a 350€ phone, plus the form factorc comfort. I struggle to do basic office stuff on my high end phone, for instance.
Also I live in a 3rd-world country
ahh give em a bit, most of the first world ones are trying to head that way ;)
So does Google.
Two things especially worth noting from the article.
This means that at least GrapheneOS will be unaffected for now. Other ROMs without gapps will be unaffected only as long as you don’t install gapps. Since Graphene has a sandbox for them, I’m assuming it’ll be fine. That is, unless Google decides to lock the bootloader entirely.
So most users worldwide still have at least 1.5 years until it’s implemented. Plenty of time to get a Pixel and install Graphene on it. Or to figure out some other plan.
Don’t get me wrong - this is insane, unreasonable and horrible news for everyone. We should push back as hard as physically possible against it. However, at the very least we still have some time to figure things out before the policy rolls out.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Google stop allowing BL unlocking soon… Following Samsung and Xiaomi (although Xiaomi technically can be unlocked, in reality you’ll not be able to do so nowadays unless you pay someone to do it via remote USB shit for you)
I’m getting Huawei
Literally just as bad lol
Yes. Would be a protest buy.
I would spend more money and get Chinese os to just not fund Google.
The way I see it this is the last drop in the bucket for android openness anyways.
Fair enough- at least you’re not under any illusions that they’re less restrictive and scummy.
a million times better*
Aaaand you have no idea what you’re talking about. No need to engage further. Have a good life.
Consider a Volla Phone with UBPorts.
UBPorts can also be installed on Fairphone.
Imagine the custom ROM situation was as bad for phones as it currently is for tablets. There is just one supported tablet which is new.
I am toying with the idea of creating a PDA of sort from a raspberry pie, touchscreen and a powerbank. Case can be 3d printed, it would be bulky af and equipped with Tails or some other secure OS.
Why not just get a PinePhone?
Because they are cool and build phones from scratch
Well, sort of…
Got it, you want a project more than a finished product. I can respect that. :)
Or FairPhone??
Neither sell their phones in (or ship to) my country.
That’s good if you want a phone with an Android fork pre-configured and live in the EU. But the experience here in the US isn’t great.
lilygo.cc/products/t-deck
only problem is it’s just an esp32, but you can add GPS
hackaday.io/…/195370-raspberry-piphone-a-diy-andr…
Fucker, if I own the airport, own the planes in the airport, am the only person using my own planes in my own airport, then nobody is asking for my ID.
Our phone, our software choice.
But what if you owned nothing and were happy about it?
The minimalist in me would love that. But while I am paying for this shit, it’s mine to do what the hell I damn well please with it!
There it is, haha.
Gave me a good chuckle as i’m with you here.
I have a similar sentiment when it comes to ads, my device, i pay for the internet and the device is inside my home. I’ll decide if you get to show me ads.
For ads at least the argument can be made that the content you consume is not yours and as such you should not be allowed to choose how it is monetized.
Google unilaterally deciding this is like Firefox or chrome adding ads to websites. Which is like no… They’re the medium through which content is consumed.
Okay, but what if Google owns the airport, the planes, and thinks it’s entitled to own the people flying on them, to boot?
You’ll Own Nothing And Be Happy
Read the contracts you sign when you buy your phone and you’ll understand how wrong you are. The problem here is we have very little choices. Monopolies kill consumer choice.
I didn’t sign a contract. Also just flashed the Pixel to GrapheneOS, and bye bye google
99% of those contracts are not enforceable. And I bought my phone used. No paper, no contract.
Contracts? Unless I’m buying a subsidized phone where a mobile phone plan is required, I’m not sure what other contract I’d be signing. I never got one from Samsung, OnePlus, Google, any used marketplace, or Amazon.
They get paid, and I get hardware to do what I like with it. If I can’t do what I want with it, then I’m renting, and I should be paying a rental fee, not a “full price”.
Good for you, you are the 1%
The Android ecosystem has been feeling more like an invasive chaotic advertisement machine the past few years. The play store is a cesspool, the weather app switch was poorly executed, Google Podcasts went to the graveyard, and Google pay getting shut down meant I had to switch back to vomits Venmo.
I still have Android gaming handhelds, but why wouldn’t I just get an iPhone the next time I go to replace my phone? I can’t believe I’m even saying that after being so die hard Android so for years.
Google pay is being shut down?
Seems like Curve pay could be an alternative
Google Pay is different in America, right? To me it’s just contactless.
uh, not sure, I’m in Europe as well
I was thinking about NFC payments, yea
Sorry I should have clarified. Google pay moved the payment features to Google wallet, but the biggest loss was the person-to-person payments are now gone. I never understood why they had multiple apps that did the same thing. I seem to also remember a time where there was a Google pay and gpay app that lived side by side, so there were a total of three apps when there should have been one.
oh, I didn’t know this
They also managed to remove a feature from the fucking clock app. It’s not much, but seriously, it’s like a headless chicken running toward a cliff from the business end.
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking too. Android’s only advantage over the Apple ecosystem is being able to install apps. If that goes away there’s no reason for me to stay.
Jumping from the frying pan straight into the fire.
Exactly this. Just left iOS and got a pixel8a and flashed grapheneos on it. Apple is doing the same shit. GOS might be a pain in the ass sometimes but I feel much better knowing that Tim Apple isn’t reading my texts and monitoring my bank apps so they can target me with ads.
I can’t do Graphene because of work. I am an IT manager, and one of our guys did graphene and had a host of issues with the work apps. I really can’t risk any issues.
This is the unfortunate hell I am in too. I’m debating an iPhone and I fucking hate Apple with a passion.
It sucks that at this point both systems suck. Apple is not great but at least it’s been pretty stable. If Apple allowed side loading that would be the dream.
Yeah, Apple is also a very proprietary ecosystem in a walled-garden style presentation. I don’t want an appliance. I want a computer.
It is a tough choice, both companies are gigantic and kind of scumbags. Funny story though, I was also in the market for a new computer recently as my 10 year old Windows 10 tower was really starting to show its age. My frustrations with Windows had also peaked.
I have been doing a more photo and video editing for fun, and I ended up taking a leap. I got an M4 Pro Mac mini. Mac OS is definitively better (IMO) for home use than Windows, and the M series processors are like wizardry. I liked it so much that shortly after I bought a used M2 Max MacBook Pro off of a coworker.
Coincidentally, a few months after I got my Macs LTT also switched over first to Snapdragon-based Windows laptops and later to Macs for a 30-day challenge and they ended up staying on the Macs.
I am an IT manager and I don’t think I would ever want to deploy Macs at scale in my workplace, though it is the only computer I look forward to using now.
Personally I’ll never purchase a Mac.
I have GrapheneOS for work, everything works fine. The only app that I had trouble with was the Westjet app, it needs a certain capatibily setting turned on and basically wants full access to the phone. Ironically the banking app was fine LOL
You are talking about your work phone, not your personal phone, right? … Right?
One personal phone. They give me a stipend. I did the two-phone game years ago and I’ll never do it again. It’s fine.
That’s some Grade A crack you’re smoking there, my dude.
I’m sure we all have a different perception, but my current view is that Google sells you a phone that they need to push ads and harvest vast amounts of data from you in order to make money on the phone, and Apple somehow needs to do this less.
Which company do you feel takes privacy more seriously? From what I understand, Google primarily makes their money from advertising.
I’ve never owned an iPhone, but I 100% agree with you. The reason I choose android is because of the freedom to use my phone how i want (for the most part).
Apple is a walled garden, but their security is good, they’re not an advertising company in the same way google is and don’t have as much of an incentive to harvest and sell your data. If android is going to be a walled garden like iOS, I trust apple more than i do google and If in the future I can’t find a phone that has all the features i want anyway, then i may as well just get an iPhone.
Agreed across all points. Android’s main advantages after the changes go through with side loading will be:
I love being able to press one button and have all of my containerized work apps shut off. It is also quite nice that a remote wipe from M365 could be limited to the work app container rather than the entire phone.
Google pay being shut down is news to me. I still pay contactless with Google pay and also for paying on websites…
www.androidcentral.com/…/google-wallet
They migrated people over to the wallet. What was shut down was the app called “Google Pay”
Yes, sorry I should have clarified. The biggest loss was the person-to-person payments are now gone. I never understood why they had multiple apps that did the same thing. I seem to also remember a time where there was a Google pay and gpay app that lived side by side, so there were a total of three apps when there should have been one.
so no modded apps, no emulation, no unauthorised chat apps. hopefully some root mod will make this irrelevant.
Nice timing for chat control!
I wouldn’t be so sure they will allow you to do it. First they implemented chrome restrictions for adblockers with manifest v3, then restricted AOSP sources. Looks like they are pretending to be Apple now.
sudo apt-get remove google
Fuck Google
I hope they fail.
Lets build a Raspi phone
You might be joking but you could build the Raspberry PiPhone: a DIY Android Smartphone.
Well. They will try anyway.
The phone I have now is half way paid off… I will say it. It is a Samsung S23. I didn’t want it. It is just my other phone literally died from a single drop of water! I won’t get into the details. But I want grapheneOS or the most private OS I can.
Right now I have been carrying my phone less than before. I used to take it even to grocery store trips, but I am just getting sick of the endless monitoring, even if I am a terminally online person. I literally cannot leave my apartment without being on camera since my landlord has all the corridors and exits/entrances on 24/7 surveillance.
I know that a phone can be tracked even when on a private OS. And the EU’s rules on wanting a copy of every single message sent out from all messaging apps (including signal) will still affect non-EU people, too. It fucking sucks.
I don’t personally understand the desire to do this beyond “it’s the principle damnit” or doing illegal stuff but if you really want your phone to not be tracked then just use a verified faraday bag. Or make one yourself if you’re poor and then validate it yourself.
I learned the hard way many, many, many times just what even a simple ‘hello my name is (name), and I am a (job title at company)’ to the wrong person that you’d think could not have had any negative consequences whatsoever ended up causing absolute hell for me. I’ve been robbed, lied about and had my reputation utter destroyed, been a victim of identity theft by people I knew personally, had my family stalked and harassed, and even had multiple hit and run attempts done on me by people actively stalking me. Not to mention how anything and everything I said, no matter how innocent it seemed absolutely can be twisted against you. And I mean ANYTHING.
And I did nothing wrong, nothing illegal, nothing shady. I just had people calling me antisocial and so I made conversation with them, talking about my day, my studies, what I ate for lunch… and fuck me you would not believe what people can do with simple information like that.
There is a reason some people clam up at even the simplest question posed to them by anyone. I did try to ask simple information about people above, even things as damn simple as what their (real) names were because apparently it turned out they didn’t tell me their real names and they got VERY violent the moment I probed into anything. The people who claim that ‘nothing to hide nothing to fear’ are also the most secretive people who absolutely will not allow anyone an inkling about themselves. This is why.
BTW you want to know how simple info like what ate for lunch can be used against you? I once said that I wanted to work at little overtime because I wanted to earn back the money I paid for an unplanned lunch…
Now you might say ‘how the fuck could that statement be used against you?’. Well the guy said I was acting unprofessionally and said I needed to run to the cafeteria to pay for a lunch I took without paying for it. Basically accusing me of dining and dashing.
Best part? Management believed him… they believed him despite the fact that I had WRITTEN that in a work chat and they presented the screencaps to me. I didn’t say anything during the investigation because… I have no idea what to say. I had already told people I was trying to save money by not buying lunch and also working overtime. But even that was interpreted as an insult by me against them because they thought I was calling them lazy and useless with money. They just kept making accusations like that, and while initially management said ‘wow that guy is an asshole’ they never dismissed what the others said. So after dozens of bullshit accusations my credibility just kept dropping and theirs rising.
And all of this could have been avoided if I simply refused to talk to anyone.
Foregoing sharing personal information with the wrong crowd is likely imperative, but it’s probably best to find ways out of unstructured servile relationships i.e. workplaces with any hint of drama, disorganization, or lack of focus.
If you don’t feel welcomed and supported, if the hierarchy is oppressive, if your peers are seemingly jealous or readily find fault in you, if you are insulted - start looking for another job. Or never stop looking for jobs until you’re sure you’re safe… or just work remote.
I’ve had my fair share of similarly unbelievable circumstances - and what I’ve learned is to not mess around with anything with a hint of instability and also to avoid being in close proximity to potentially volatile individuals - unless I’m absolutely sure I’m safe and that the individuals are harmless.
It really doesn’t matter if you talk or don’t talk - if people see you as condescending, if they dislike you intensely for no apparent reason, if they are on drugs or are experiencing psychosis, if somebody misinforms them about you, etc. it’s within the realm of possibility that something undesirable happens.
…but don’t be afraid to engage with people you feel you can trust - give it time if you have to, but past undesirable circumstances shouldn’t take away from your life and range of experience. And worrying that the worst possible scenario will unfold all the time is also very paralyzing and limiting in my experience - there has to be a better and bolder way forward, that also does not delve into naivety.
GrapheneOS has a decent airplane mode.
Is it possible to use presaved GPS maps on it?
Also i wish I could install grapheneOS on my phone. But there are no options for Samsung S23s… or are there?
I use Osmand+ for most of my navigation. Google Maps also works. GrapheneOS is for Pixels only.
Osmand is great! For driving a car it is superior to Google maps. The only reason why I use Google for anything is because their public transport database is still superior. Once that is taken care of they can kiss my ass.
I only have a Gmail account because my dad made one for me back in 2005, when it was invite only…
Last I checked, unverified software didn’t run the risk of making my phone fly itself into, and bring down, a skyscraper.
You haven’t seen the way I write code.
I honestly wish for the responsible people to die. A natural, painless death, but let it be quick. All of silicon valley is so evil it would be deemed unrealistic for a movie villain. They are selling out our freedoms and planet for what? They are already stinking rich.
Most moderate lemmy user when talking about digital freedom:
Moderates is what got us into this dystopia. We should have never tolerated greed and selfishness to begin with.
They are sexually aroused when they torture both individuals and society at large.
I wish I could accuse you of exaggerating. But I am not sure it is an exaggeration.
Everything is about sex. Sex is about power.
Only for toxic people.
I agree. One should strive to evolve beyond the tyranny of our amygdalas.
@raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world @themachinestops@lemmy.dbzer0.com
Plus, on the bright side, it'd slow climate change rates by a pretty considerable rate, if not reversing to pre-Industrial Revolution global temperatures (seriously). But maybe I'm being too optimistic here.
It would definitely help.
Wtf is this
I guess it’s time to buy a linux phone
Support for this will grow, I hope. Linux on PC has been really easy for the past 10 or so years, but phones often have locked bootloaders. There’s not that much support for different models either, feels like a work in progress. I hope someone just starts up a volunteer organisation that can provide pre-installed free software. Not just one centralised company, but multiple outlets.
I wish a Linux tablet will be ready by the time the custom ROMs will be killed off.
Best I’ve been able to do is a Lenovo Yoga. Ubuntu runs great and touch works well enough. But yeah… not really the same.
Thanks for putting that option on my radar.
I’d also say, it’s likely rooting your phone would work around this, though I don’t recommend that from a security perspective.
Only thing I care about, how will this impact my streaming devices that rarely get is updates
<img alt="" src="https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/266c022f-826b-4573-84f1-8df25bf75a85.gif">
As would I, but where exactly are we going comrade?
I think Android on my Samsung 25 Ultra is already blocking Kolab Now for being private. EPSTEIN FILES.
I need an OS for phone which is completely controlled by community.
GrapheneOS for Pixel
How does it compare with LineageOS? What are the pros and cons in your opinion?
They are very different.
GrapheneOS’ whole thing is security and privacy. It’s big on sandboxing apps and browser sessions. Google Play and most Android features are opt-in (Google Play Services are also sandboxed). Just check their features.
LineageOS doesn’t have most of the above. It’s mostly just a regular barebones Android distribution without all the vendor bloat, and a great alternative if you just want more control and less BS (if you’ve used a Samsung device you will know what I mean - absolutely horrible distribution imo).
LineageOS also significantly regresses security compared to barebones AOSP.
Because of using Shelter, this will make my phone practically unusable.
This is fucking ridiculous
If you use the term “sideloading” you already lost the battle before you finished your sentence
The war was lost by default. The one party did not show up to the battle because they never knew a war was on.
Great i guess it is time to root my phone, and run a custom rom. I haven’t had to do that in years because android finally got good.
It’s not about technical utility. It’s about freedom.
Please let this be a nightmare…
2026 - year of the Linux Phone :D
I’m gonna try to install chimera linux on my fairphone. then I could use phosh as a window manager and use waydroid so I could have android apps! time to see how crazy that is.
Update: I did a bit of research, and chimera does support aarch64(the architecture of the fairphone 4) and it seems pretty doable, the postmarketos wiki says most features are supported, so we’ll see!
Isn’t this like 90% of the reason people prefer android over apple?
Yup.
It is, yeah. It’s like 100% of the reason for me. I’m gonna buy an iPhone later this year most likely.
Understandable, if youre gonna eat straight up dog shit it might as well be gourmet dogshit
I doubt most people care that much. I do, but I don’t know anyone else who does.
But even if I were to lose this, I would not even consider switching to apple (but I would consider switching to something more open).
it was. Time for a new phone OS.
This will be the last straw for me. I will be looking for Android OS alternatives.
This is dystopian.