astronaut_sloth@mander.xyz
on 27 Jul 2024 13:10
nextcollapse
I can see the allure for places wanting to keep certain trouble-makers out as a precaution, but this gets so close to a privatized social credit score that it’s beyond uncomfortable.
conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Jul 2024 14:48
nextcollapse
I feel like you should not be allowed to record any data until there’s a documented case with a police report at minimum. At that point, potentially restricting action becomes a legitimate security need.
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
on 28 Jul 2024 12:06
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Idk about that level of escalation being necessary, maybe just repeat offenses. Where I went to college it’s got to be super serious for police to come into a bar.
Repeat fights, or pukes on the floor, or belligerence to staff are all things I would think would be decent grounds to be turned away by ID. I mean, that happens now at gas stations and restaurants with security cam photos saying “don’t serve this person” posted at the register except it’s more public.
I suppose it depends what data is recorded though, they don’t need your home address.
conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
on 28 Jul 2024 12:12
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You can already handle people being repeated nuisances at a specific location without issue.
Sharing any information at all absolutely should require a police report (and I’m aware that they already violate privacy other ways; that’s also not OK).
I wonder once that data leak if we can correlate for racism and classism and other clown behaviours
ilmagico@lemmy.world
on 27 Jul 2024 15:13
nextcollapse
From the article:
Patronscan previously had a system flag for “substance abuse,” but this flag was removed in 2019, according to Mlikotin. Its privacy policy notes a California law that limits its flags to “fraud, abuse, and material representation.”
jordanlund@lemmy.world
on 27 Jul 2024 17:07
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See, for me, “substance abuse” = “caught doing coke in the bathroom”.
Takumidesh@lemmy.world
on 27 Jul 2024 23:33
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Why would a system meant to maximize the profit of the bar block out their best customers?
They only want to block fighters and predators because it hurts business, not for any moral reasons.
jordanlund@lemmy.world
on 27 Jul 2024 23:39
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Serving someone who has overconsumed can get you in trouble with the liquor authorities.
pjwestin@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 11:50
nextcollapse
Honestly, I spent a lot of years tending bar, and most of the time, if someone was too drunk, it was my fault. Sure, there were times when someone was pre-gaming too hard or snuck in alcohol, but 9 times out of 10, if someone overconsumed, it was because I overserved.
ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 19:20
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I commented elsewhere about this but it’s entirely dependent on the type of bar and event. That data will be used for holding bartenders who “overserve” liable for someone else’s behavior and there’s so many scenarios where you have no idea who has drank the correct amount.
Imagine working an event — a concert or wedding or anything like that — and some jackass manages to get too drunk. That should be on them but America is the most litigious society on Earth. There’s no way the bar and bartender won’t ever be sued and this data subpoenaed.
pjwestin@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 22:04
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That’s very true, although I think it’ll be unlikely that an individual bartender will get blamed for overserving in a large venue. I worked at a relatively small venue (280 at capacity) and on a busy night it would be difficult to tell you who served an individual customer, much less who gave him the drink that, “overserved,” them.
ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 19:04
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As someone in New Orleans who has bartended and done many other service industry jobs, eat pant. That will definitely be used in shittier cities to arrest/sue bartenders who “overserve” someone who then leaves and gets in trouble.
It’s basically impossible to keep track of every customer at crowded bars when you’re working your ass off, people buy rounds for each other, you’re worried about stocking the bar, cleaning glasses, etc. Imagine working at a music venue and being slammed for 3 or 4 hours for tips and then some ass gets you sued, fined, or arrested because you didn’t manage to remember every single person at the show.
harrys_balzac@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 27 Jul 2024 14:27
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Wow. It was worse than I thought. They’ll take your picture but won’t be using it for facial recognition?
I can see how they could easily “upgrade” their system for businesses to gather more data and be even less privacy friendly.
Well... If you want to fight this, don't go to these places. Deny them profit.
Otherwise it will go mainstream.
Similar thing with extra fees at restaurants. In my area most dropped them after consumer bakc lash.
Going to a bar is 100% luxury, you will 100% fine to avoid it.
Dont feed this corpo behaviour. Fuck em.
Find that local hood dive with a bartender who knows how to manage a shop. Support them, they are dying.
Bell@lemmy.world
on 27 Jul 2024 14:49
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This is why we need data protection laws here. We need to be able to control what these companies keep about us.
sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 28 Jul 2024 13:12
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Yeah like I don’t have a problem with a shared database for bars to keep out bad actors. That sounds like a collaborative IRC banlist. But why does it have to involve keeping pictures of me and which bar I go to which night and all this other stuff
MeaanBeaan@lemmy.world
on 27 Jul 2024 18:09
nextcollapse
Fuck no you can’t take my picture to share with 2000 other establishments to see if I’ve been a bad boy. That’s an easy way to ensure I just don’t hang out in your bar.
tenextrathrills@lemmynsfw.com
on 27 Jul 2024 20:12
nextcollapse
Good, I’d rather not have you in my bar if your behavior is such that you’re worried about not being able to get in my bar.
Bruhh@lemmy.world
on 27 Jul 2024 22:41
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Except now the bars can easily sell my data to corps without my goddamn permission. It isn’t about having things to hide. It’s about resonable privacy. According to the article, the company can track VIPs and “big spenders” and treat them differently. They can also deny you entry on “potential” risks. I wonder what systems they use to determine a denial of entry.
It’s all self-reported. For example, if they don’t like how much you tipped, they can flag you. It’s all subjective.
FlavoredButtHair@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 11:22
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I stopped drinking years ago, even then I just bought my own and maybe shared with friends.
todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee
on 27 Jul 2024 23:50
nextcollapse
Can’t wait to get banned from the queer bar in my neighborhood after the bartender I buy whiskey from on my business trip to Kentucky flags my faggot ass as a major disruption because they think I’m a child-grooming Satanist.
Pika@sh.itjust.works
on 28 Jul 2024 01:31
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You may not have read that right. I don’t think they are saying that it’s their behavior that is the reason that they won’t enter, it’s the fact that you are using a partner that makes digital copies and photographs patrons. It’s a huge invasion of privacy. It’s one thing for security cameras, it’s a whole different level to also be copying ID’s AND then also sharing that information to parties outside the establishment.
Pika@sh.itjust.works
on 28 Jul 2024 01:28
collapse
fully agree, I barely go to bars in the first place, I’m the quiet guy that orders and just hangs out and have a good time, but like I would never enter an establishment where a copy of my ID is required to enter, and that’s ignoring the fact that it’s doing photography at the same time. Would be an instant next bar please.
heavy@sh.itjust.works
on 27 Jul 2024 18:21
nextcollapse
This is just like that China social credit system
todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee
on 27 Jul 2024 23:53
nextcollapse
No, no, no, that’s the evil government credit system. (Communism)
This is a private, patriotic, free-market surveillance apparatus. (Liberty & Freedom 🇺🇲)
We love [corporate] big brother.
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
on 28 Jul 2024 11:54
collapse
Dude don’t be alarmist.
It will be months until it turns into that. Maybe even a year or two.
boatsnhos931@lemmy.world
on 27 Jul 2024 19:25
nextcollapse
Nice try feds
pjwestin@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 12:39
nextcollapse
Possibly controversial opinion, but this sounds reasonable. The flags they can put on customers are, “violence, assault, destruction of property, sexual assault, fraud, and theft.” Those aren’t petty gripes like, “rude,” or, “poor tipper.” I was bar staff for a while, and I’d have wanted to know if the guy I was serving got violent the last time he went out.
That being said, I could see how this system could be abused. If one power-tripping bouncer claims you sexually assaulted someone, and no one will serve you anymore, that’s bullshit. Some regulations around how businesses use these databases would be good.
GroundedGator@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 19:42
nextcollapse
For anyone like this to be a good thing there needs to be a system of checks and balances. There should be an appeal process that is low effort and low or zero cost. There should also be a verification process by a third party before anything can be added.
pjwestin@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 23:03
collapse
Yeah, and a lot of this will depend on how it’s used. If I were still in the service industry and I saw that a guy had been to 20 bars in the last year, and I saw he got flagged at one for violence, I would think, “Well, this doesn’t seem to be a pattern of behavior, maybe he wasn’t the instigator, I’ll keep an eye on him but I’m not too worried.” But I could see a lot of larger places, like clubs, who aren’t hurting for business, just rejecting people who are flagged out of hand. The information seems objectively good to have, but the application could be really problematic.
freeman@sh.itjust.works
on 29 Jul 2024 10:01
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Yes totally reasonable some corpos and business get to claim you are a criminal and impose de facto penalties on you.
pjwestin@lemmy.world
on 29 Jul 2024 10:51
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Your email app will give your messages to other companies, your navigation app will share your exact location with marketers, and your dating app will sell your sexual preferences to the highest bidder, but sure, bars having a way to warn each other which costumers tried to assault a waitress is a bridge to far.
freeman@sh.itjust.works
on 29 Jul 2024 11:31
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You presume much about what services I use.
There is much to be said about the power private corps have over us, the complications of being unable or unwilling to use their services making you a de facto outsider.
I don’t see how these wrongs make another right.
Some of the actions alleged are actual crimes. It is a bad idea to have them handle para-legally. Sure being excluded from visiting bars is a light punishment (for someone actually guilty, completely unfair for an innocent person) but nothing guarantees it will stay there and won’t also be used leaked to prospective employers and other people. In fact the first time you get denied you could very well not be alone and have to convince people you are not a rapist or something.
It’s exactly the sort of information you not want bartenders and bouncers conjuring and trading in.
pjwestin@lemmy.world
on 29 Jul 2024 12:49
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Yeah, I meant people generally give away this data, not you specifically, and again, I can see the potential for abuse, but alcohol isn’t like other goods and services. When a bartender serves you alcohol, they become legally liable for your actions if you overconsume, in civil and (in some states) criminal court, and for good reason; irresponsible alcohol sales can kill people. Regulating how this data can be used is one thing, but sharing data on what customers are liabilities is objectively good, not just bars, but public safety.
8000gnat@reddthat.com
on 28 Jul 2024 19:34
nextcollapse
brat ass lookin thumbnail
GamingChairModel@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 21:01
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It’s brat green summer, apparently.
nobleshift@lemmy.world
on 28 Jul 2024 23:36
collapse
threaded - newest
I can see the allure for places wanting to keep certain trouble-makers out as a precaution, but this gets so close to a privatized social credit score that it’s beyond uncomfortable.
I feel like you should not be allowed to record any data until there’s a documented case with a police report at minimum. At that point, potentially restricting action becomes a legitimate security need.
Idk about that level of escalation being necessary, maybe just repeat offenses. Where I went to college it’s got to be super serious for police to come into a bar.
Repeat fights, or pukes on the floor, or belligerence to staff are all things I would think would be decent grounds to be turned away by ID. I mean, that happens now at gas stations and restaurants with security cam photos saying “don’t serve this person” posted at the register except it’s more public.
I suppose it depends what data is recorded though, they don’t need your home address.
You can already handle people being repeated nuisances at a specific location without issue.
Sharing any information at all absolutely should require a police report (and I’m aware that they already violate privacy other ways; that’s also not OK).
yeah, promising security/convenience over liberty is how they reel us in every time
that and protecting the kids
“Its website lists six behaviors customers can be flagged for: violence, assault, destruction of property, sexual assault, fraud, and theft.”
Seems like they’re missing an “overconsume” flag. If you ever had to cut someone off, that should be noted. 6 drink maximum or whatever.
It would be nice if they put an AA flag as well and let people with addiction problems blacklist themselves on a voluntary basis.
This is clearly only the ones that negatively affect them (the bar).
Yeah, I’m half surprised there isn’t “under consume” on the list and they stop letting people in who don’t spend enough money
They don’t really care about those. Their prices are high enough that their expenses are covered by the people who do drink.
Who decides this?
Some clown with tablet...
I wonder once that data leak if we can correlate for racism and classism and other clown behaviours
From the article:
See, for me, “substance abuse” = “caught doing coke in the bathroom”.
Why would a system meant to maximize the profit of the bar block out their best customers?
They only want to block fighters and predators because it hurts business, not for any moral reasons.
Serving someone who has overconsumed can get you in trouble with the liquor authorities.
Honestly, I spent a lot of years tending bar, and most of the time, if someone was too drunk, it was my fault. Sure, there were times when someone was pre-gaming too hard or snuck in alcohol, but 9 times out of 10, if someone overconsumed, it was because I overserved.
I commented elsewhere about this but it’s entirely dependent on the type of bar and event. That data will be used for holding bartenders who “overserve” liable for someone else’s behavior and there’s so many scenarios where you have no idea who has drank the correct amount.
Imagine working an event — a concert or wedding or anything like that — and some jackass manages to get too drunk. That should be on them but America is the most litigious society on Earth. There’s no way the bar and bartender won’t ever be sued and this data subpoenaed.
That’s very true, although I think it’ll be unlikely that an individual bartender will get blamed for overserving in a large venue. I worked at a relatively small venue (280 at capacity) and on a busy night it would be difficult to tell you who served an individual customer, much less who gave him the drink that, “overserved,” them.
As someone in New Orleans who has bartended and done many other service industry jobs, eat pant. That will definitely be used in shittier cities to arrest/sue bartenders who “overserve” someone who then leaves and gets in trouble.
It’s basically impossible to keep track of every customer at crowded bars when you’re working your ass off, people buy rounds for each other, you’re worried about stocking the bar, cleaning glasses, etc. Imagine working at a music venue and being slammed for 3 or 4 hours for tips and then some ass gets you sued, fined, or arrested because you didn’t manage to remember every single person at the show.
Wow. It was worse than I thought. They’ll take your picture but won’t be using it for facial recognition?
I can see how they could easily “upgrade” their system for businesses to gather more data and be even less privacy friendly.
Well... If you want to fight this, don't go to these places. Deny them profit.
Otherwise it will go mainstream.
Similar thing with extra fees at restaurants. In my area most dropped them after consumer bakc lash.
Going to a bar is 100% luxury, you will 100% fine to avoid it.
Dont feed this corpo behaviour. Fuck em.
Find that local hood dive with a bartender who knows how to manage a shop. Support them, they are dying.
This is why we need data protection laws here. We need to be able to control what these companies keep about us.
Yeah like I don’t have a problem with a shared database for bars to keep out bad actors. That sounds like a collaborative IRC banlist. But why does it have to involve keeping pictures of me and which bar I go to which night and all this other stuff
Fuck no you can’t take my picture to share with 2000 other establishments to see if I’ve been a bad boy. That’s an easy way to ensure I just don’t hang out in your bar.
Good, I’d rather not have you in my bar if your behavior is such that you’re worried about not being able to get in my bar.
Except now the bars can easily sell my data to corps without my goddamn permission. It isn’t about having things to hide. It’s about resonable privacy. According to the article, the company can track VIPs and “big spenders” and treat them differently. They can also deny you entry on “potential” risks. I wonder what systems they use to determine a denial of entry.
It’s all self-reported. For example, if they don’t like how much you tipped, they can flag you. It’s all subjective.
I stopped drinking years ago, even then I just bought my own and maybe shared with friends.
Can’t wait to get banned from the queer bar in my neighborhood after the bartender I buy whiskey from on my business trip to Kentucky flags my faggot ass as a major disruption because they think I’m a child-grooming Satanist.
You may not have read that right. I don’t think they are saying that it’s their behavior that is the reason that they won’t enter, it’s the fact that you are using a partner that makes digital copies and photographs patrons. It’s a huge invasion of privacy. It’s one thing for security cameras, it’s a whole different level to also be copying ID’s AND then also sharing that information to parties outside the establishment.
fully agree, I barely go to bars in the first place, I’m the quiet guy that orders and just hangs out and have a good time, but like I would never enter an establishment where a copy of my ID is required to enter, and that’s ignoring the fact that it’s doing photography at the same time. Would be an instant next bar please.
This is just like that China social credit system
No, no, no, that’s the evil government credit system. (Communism)
This is a private, patriotic, free-market surveillance apparatus. (Liberty & Freedom 🇺🇲)
We love [corporate] big brother.
Dude don’t be alarmist.
It will be months until it turns into that. Maybe even a year or two.
Airlines do this too
Nice try feds
Possibly controversial opinion, but this sounds reasonable. The flags they can put on customers are, “violence, assault, destruction of property, sexual assault, fraud, and theft.” Those aren’t petty gripes like, “rude,” or, “poor tipper.” I was bar staff for a while, and I’d have wanted to know if the guy I was serving got violent the last time he went out.
That being said, I could see how this system could be abused. If one power-tripping bouncer claims you sexually assaulted someone, and no one will serve you anymore, that’s bullshit. Some regulations around how businesses use these databases would be good.
For anyone like this to be a good thing there needs to be a system of checks and balances. There should be an appeal process that is low effort and low or zero cost. There should also be a verification process by a third party before anything can be added.
Yeah, and a lot of this will depend on how it’s used. If I were still in the service industry and I saw that a guy had been to 20 bars in the last year, and I saw he got flagged at one for violence, I would think, “Well, this doesn’t seem to be a pattern of behavior, maybe he wasn’t the instigator, I’ll keep an eye on him but I’m not too worried.” But I could see a lot of larger places, like clubs, who aren’t hurting for business, just rejecting people who are flagged out of hand. The information seems objectively good to have, but the application could be really problematic.
.
Yes totally reasonable some corpos and business get to claim you are a criminal and impose de facto penalties on you.
Your email app will give your messages to other companies, your navigation app will share your exact location with marketers, and your dating app will sell your sexual preferences to the highest bidder, but sure, bars having a way to warn each other which costumers tried to assault a waitress is a bridge to far.
You presume much about what services I use. There is much to be said about the power private corps have over us, the complications of being unable or unwilling to use their services making you a de facto outsider.
I don’t see how these wrongs make another right.
Some of the actions alleged are actual crimes. It is a bad idea to have them handle para-legally. Sure being excluded from visiting bars is a light punishment (for someone actually guilty, completely unfair for an innocent person) but nothing guarantees it will stay there and won’t also be used leaked to prospective employers and other people. In fact the first time you get denied you could very well not be alone and have to convince people you are not a rapist or something.
It’s exactly the sort of information you not want bartenders and bouncers conjuring and trading in.
Yeah, I meant people generally give away this data, not you specifically, and again, I can see the potential for abuse, but alcohol isn’t like other goods and services. When a bartender serves you alcohol, they become legally liable for your actions if you overconsume, in civil and (in some states) criminal court, and for good reason; irresponsible alcohol sales can kill people. Regulating how this data can be used is one thing, but sharing data on what customers are liabilities is objectively good, not just bars, but public safety.
brat ass lookin thumbnail
It’s brat green summer, apparently.
No.