Apple calls Android a 'massive tracking device'
(9to5google.com)
from Jezebelley@lemmy.zip to technology@lemmy.world on 02 Nov 2023 16:04
https://lemmy.zip/post/4999342
from Jezebelley@lemmy.zip to technology@lemmy.world on 02 Nov 2023 16:04
https://lemmy.zip/post/4999342
threaded - newest
tbf Androids are about the same size as iPhones
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/52d29ba5-54a3-4460-8594-5df37a944873.webm">
Googled Androids yes, not degoogled ones. There's a big difference.
Pot, meet kettle.
To add to this, at least Android being open source allows for alternative versions that can be used on some hardware that truly don’t track and can be consistently supported long term. With Apple’s devices, that’s not a practical option.
Edit:
From the news today:
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!
SOME hardware. I hope you’re not picky with your devices.
I mean, it’s a higher count than Apple with exactly…0
Does anyone else remember that old project from many moons ago that was working on getting Android working on iOS devices
I member!
Yep! I remember running Android on an original iPhone (just for fun, really, and like two or three years after the iPhone had debuted).
Hahahahaha. Good one.
Yes. LineageOS and GrapheneOS among other forks are some obvious counterexamples to the narrative that Android isn’t open source. Then there are the countless vendors that use it in China without Google software. I know it’s cool to hate on Google and I do partake but that’s simply a fact.
Those are missing major parts of a full Android system. Play Services is a huge one.
No, they’re not. You can use sandboxed google services, if you want to. Or you can use FOSS apps.
Or your own proprietary implementation if you’re making an Android device yourself and you were lazy.
Keep digging, bud
Go buy any Android phone from a major brand (Google, Samsung, etc) try to rebuild the OS as it’s installed from the factory from source. You can’t.
Even theAOSP based Android distros like LineageOS ship with closed source binary blobs for crucial parts of the OS.
Calling Android OSS is a marketing gimmick to trick nerds into choosing Android.
I don’t know how to rebuild shit but certainly plenty of people can and have.
There are dozens of forks of Android so I don’t know how you can NOT call it OSS.
You can build a version of Android, but not the version that is installed on the device you buy in the store.
Because even those forks ship closed source binary blobs. You simply cannot build an Android phone with 100% open source. The phones you can actually buy in the store? A huge part of those is closed source.
No one is talking about off the shelf OS’s.
Yes we are. No one runs custom ROMs other than a very tiny number of hardcode nerds.
Android is opensource. It has closed source components, but they aren't necessary to run Android.
And they’re completely replaceable as there are clean interfaces between the closed source components and the open source base.
If those are you idea of clean interfaces… wow.
Feel free to post comparison images of core apps on different mobile OS’es to strengthen your incredulity.
Mayor parts that are very much necessary for a fully functional Android system are closed source. Play Services is a big one.
Yes. I would like to see a DIY selfhosted replacement for play services that is a direct swap in, in the sense that as an end user I couldn’t tell the difference (notifications primarily)
Edit: wow! Didn’t realize selfhosting replacements for Google services is so controversial!
Exactly. It’s like saying Linux isn’t open source because some distros come with proprietary NVidia drivers.
Hello from GrapheneOS 👋
The same GrapheneOS kicked out of AOSP Alliance for being toxic and shady?
I dunno about that but the toxic guy was also kicked out of Graphene
No kettle here, just a couple of pots. The kettle is shiny and reflective. The pot is seeing its own reflection in the kettle. Hence there’s no kettle in this scenario.
🤯 Thank you for your service.
Well yeah, as much as I dislike apple, the majority of Google’s income comes from advertising - and to be the best at it, they need to have more personal data than everyone else, which = lots of tracking.
How do we open source hardware and make it competitive? If we figure that out, maybe we can break free of yet another 2 party system we’re creating lol
As opposed to Apple where advertising is a growing revenue stream that they’re definitely not gonna maximize because they have other revenue streams.
Agree on the hardware point. That said you can buy a Fairphone or a Pixel today and install usable Google-free software on it, today.
There are plenty of phones one can install notgoogled OS’es on, but it requires the buyer to look up the list of phones that are supported.
Not necessarily. There’s always the option to port something like LineageOS yourself, which is in fact where most of the ROMs for a much larger selection of devices comes from than what is officially supported by LineageOS. This is of course not for the average user, but it is possible. Except for some devices like the newest Samsung flagships that are based on Snapdragon. With the Exynos variants, porting AOSP and operating systems based on it is possible.
I don’t understand. There’s a large list of officially supported devices and users can create support for even more devices. Doesn’t that mean that there is a wide range of phones that support custom ROMs, even if not all phones are supported?
I’m a little iffy on just how Google-free any Pixel after 5 is even if you run Lineage or something.
There’s one thing I’m still missing when looking at custom roms, and that is being able to properly hook into the camera API to use all the cameras that come with modern devices.
You give them the freest phone with the most open operating system you can find and people will install the spyware themselves.
Give a person a privacy phone and they’ll install spyware on it.
Give a person a want for privacy and they’ll get a privacy phone and never install closed source apps on it.
You can lead a troglodyte to knowledge but you can’t make them think.
I hope eventually risc-v become the norm. It’s the closests to the open source hardware idea.
Unfortunately, no matter how open the hardware and software may be, for the vast number of people it will never be possible to verify that one specific peice of hardware is running a specific peice of software.
And even if the tools existed to enable normal persons to do this, they would need to trust that the hardware/software in the tool has not been tampered with and that the tool is running it.
I don’t think trusting the security software would be any harder to trust than the OS or anti-viruses, both systems designed to keep the users safe.
More of an issue would be how to find out who is trustable, and that will take both time and trust from the getgo.
I don’t think that that’s going to be a problem. We have a long history of dealing with such verification. What is important is that people trust science and scientific institutions, and sooner rather than later, in-depth analysis of devices conducted by experts will be able to provide security and credibility for the layman to rely on without the need to run tests themselves. This is basically how the privacy and cryptography branches of hardware and software engineering have operated for decades now.
Yeah I’m laughing at the top comment which equates Apple and Google on this. Please give me a break. Apple sells ads within its App Store and some people would have you believe this makes them an ad company. Meanwhile Google collects data from your browsing, email, phone, and tried damn hard to hook us on its social media products, and they run ads on all of those as well as third party sites and apps. I mean FFS come on.
I use a pixel with graphineOS and it’s more while apps in my work profile are awful, apples in my main are all open source. I think the issue is the all mobile devices are tracking devices out of the box
Graphene gang
Gang gang
As opposed to the iPhone were Apple is definitely tracking what people do on their phones and their information via Apple ID?
“Ignore those AirTags”
Just because Apple hinders tracking by others doesn't mean they don't do it themselves. Just because they can't decrypt your phone when the FBI comes knocking doesn't mean they don't track you.
Think about it. What was Apple's privacy advertising all about? It was never "we don't track". It was about encryption and how they prevent others from tracking. Yet, my wife's Siri can always find the nearest whatever and suggest stuff based on my wife's "preferences". Curiou, ain't it?
From what I’ve heard it’s been harder for law enforcement to get into Android phones now.
Also, the whole privacy features only make Apple’s data gathering more valuable because they become the only ones that can access that information. Google caught on and is doing the same thing with their privacy features. Privacy features are nice, but it’s naive to think that Apple and Google don’t have other ulterior motives with implementing them.
Exactly! As if Apple would hesitate even one cycle of their M3 CPUs to establish a monopoly through "data protection" (aka "only we can sell access to your data to others")
Apple being an american company, what’s to stop high level surveilance from demanding backdoor access and printing out a letter of non-disclosure as per current US laws?
It would be negligent of any intel agency with the possibility to not make their own Room 641A at Apple.
The government can't compel them to actually lie, and under their current public disclosures, they do not do such things. At any rate, demands are not unlimited in scope; US law doesn't require them to secretly re-architect the whole service to create a backdoor from scratch. AT&T willingly built 641A.
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To say they are part of it kind of implies they even had a choice. When Yahoo tried to fight being a part of the program they were going to be fined $250k a day.
Don’t need to just call up Google and get whatever they want. In fact they get whatever they want for thousands of people at a time.
Only for things that are on Google’s servers. If you have something that’s on-device police will use something like Cellbrite to access it.
The vast majority of stuff Google has on their servers isn’t really all that useful to law enforcement anyway and Google requires a search warrant before handing it over. And they generally notify the user when it happens (when legally allowed to do so). Most useful would probably be location data, but law enforcement can also get similar information from cell phone companies (who are much more carefree about handing over subscriber data).
Google and Apple are both actually kind of a pain to deal with for warrant related stuff. In my line of work, I most often see subpoenas for cell phone providers and social media records as those are much easier to get.
People often act like Google is just handing out user user data to the highest bidder, but that really misunderstands their profit model. They are very protective of user data. Google does not like to give it out so that only they can be the ones to profit off of the data.
Everything is on Google’s servers.
no it’s actually much worse than that
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
no it’s actually much worse than that
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Yeah, I realize it’s worse than that… When did I say otherwise? I even started off the comment by stating that Apple and Google’s privacy features were made for anti-competitive reasons, not to benefit the consumer.
Your type of fear-mongering isn’t really helpful though. It just makes people feel powerless to large corporations and makes people try to address the wrong issues. It’s important to accurately state what they are collecting and how they are using that data. We spent a decade complaining about Google not respecting privacy and selling data and what we got was Google gaining even more power. Because, that wasn’t what Google was doing or their end goal.
“People” are not powerless. You and I are powerless because “people” don’t care about the dystopian future we’re living in.
And it’s not fear-mongering, it’s the truth. Google does not require warrants.
What are you talking about? Google does not give law enforcement information without a warrant or valid subpoena.
support.google.com/transparencyreport/…/9713961?h…
You clearly have no idea how any of this works and are fear mongering based on sound bites you may have heard. I work in this field and I know that Google (at least in the US) won’t just hand over data without a valid warrant or subpoena. Now this can be a FISA warrant where the defendant (imo) doesn’t have proper due process rights, but it is still a court order requiring them to comply.
I suppose we’ll just take Google at their word, eh? They would never lie to us? They would never give out thousands of users’ information without a warrant, right?
Strange that those posts with seemingly absolutely sure facts are always coming from accounts that have had at least two other discussions about how great apple is in the last 24 hours. Why do only the devoted fans know for absolutely certain that there are shadowy IDs generated and never cross-linked with any other identifier and that apple never ever ever ever ever gets metadata from the stuff that is "generated on the phone locally". Google generates tons of stuff on their tensor chips locally. Does anybody really believe them when they say that they don't know anything about the stuff the Phone generates? I don't. So why would I believe Apple?
Android is made by a marketing company, iOS is made by a computer company.
It’s funny that of all the Apple products I’ve used, an Apple computer is not one of them…
Apple might as well be a fashion company at this point.
I am an iPhone user, and I don’t disagree at all.
Apple has turned toward the google business model. They’re a data collection company who hoards that data to target their users with ads. Can we stop saying apple is a computer company. It and Microsoft have been taking whole chapters out of Google’s book for more than a decade now.
www.wired.com/story/apple-is-an-ad-company-now/
lemdro.id/comment/3314038
Juan already answered this on another thread
lemdro.id/comment/3314038
Damn, he’s got the receipts!
I really wish the Linux Phone was more usable.
Ubuntu touch has two phone manufacturers officially actively maintaining and supporting there devices prehaps in a few months or years after some reworks to Ubuntu touch that this niche operating system may be useable for daily use
Unless you use GrapheneOS this is true. But iPhones aren’t any better. GrapheneOS is the only solution.
I’d like to do this but it looks a bit complicated. Maybe there’s a video guide I can follow so that I don’t fuck it up.
It’s actually super easy. This guy makes great videos about GrapheneOS. This is a video install guide, it’s really not that hard. You really don’t have to be worried, there’s nothing that you can really fuck up. If something doesn’t work, you just try again.
Does it work with most common applications?
You mean apps? Then yes. You can just install Aurora.
What do you think apps is a contraction of?
Apparently, apple applications apply appropriate approvals for the apprehension of appliance appendices.
You don’t need aurora on graphene, thats the point of sandboxing.
How do you get apps from a trusted store without signing in?
.
Maybe this topic isn’t for you. Apps and applications can mean two different things depending on the context.
No they don’t. Your responses are pointless and unwelcome.
Yes, the GrapheneOS team put a lot of time and effort into creating Sandboxed Google Play services. It allows you to use Google services which are required for many apps without giving up your privacy. You get to choose which permissions you grant to Google Play services, just like with any other app. Basically any app that works on Android also works on GrapheneOS, except for a few things like Google Pay or Android Auto, because Google actually prevents them from working on Graphene.
Oh man, this looks so much easier than when I installed Lineage on the Poco F1! Might go for it now that I’ve got a pixel 7
I can only recommend it. I used a Samsung phone a few years ago and putting a custom ROM on it took me a whole weekend, I had to spend many hours researching and I often encountered issues. With GrapheneOS, it was super easy. 15 minutes after taking the phone out of the box I had Graphene running on it. That was my first time installing GrapheneOS btw.
And if you don’t buy Google’s Pixel you’re just fucked?
I believe LineageOS has a wider selection of devices
But far worse security, privacy and app compatibility.
LMFAO, i’m interested in that explanation.
Read my comments:
sh.itjust.works/comment/5117498
sh.itjust.works/comment/5117397
What a load of crap. What’s ur source for this information?
From a privacy standpoint, Lineage OS uses hard-coded Google IPs for some core functionalities (DNS, NTP, Webview). MentalOutlaw did a video on this and how it can be removed by rooting your phone.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
video
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Which makes it even less secure
Why is my comment crap?
Which of my points are not true?
LineageOS has far worse security than both AOSP and GrapheneOS as outlined in the LineageOS section of this blog post: madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#lin…
It also has worse privacy because it uses Google services for things like DNS and NTP by default, which can not be changed by the user. GrapheneOS replaces all Google services like DNS, NTP, connectivity check, and the Attestation key provisioning service through either their own service or their own proxy for the Google service. Most of these can also be entirely disabled by the user on GrapheneOS. It also offers proxies for SUPL and PSDS location services and allows the user to disable these.
App compatibility is worse, as LineageOS uses microG whereas GrapheneOS uses Sandboxed Google Play services. microG is an insecure and poorly implemented version of Google Play services that sometimes has issues with basic Google SafetyNet checks. GrapheneOS just uses the standard Google Mobile Services bundle, but it’s not installed as a system app and has the same privileges as any other app. It can be installed and uninstalled by the user and all permissions can be revoked (including network and sensor access).
LineageOS without GApps is literally as secure as GrapheneOS
No, it definitely isn’t. Stop spreading false information and potentially giving people a false sense of security. LineageOS isn’t even as secure as stock Android, it’s definitely not as secure as GrapheneOS as GOS has many security improvements compared to the AOSP. Some examples are the hardened C Library, hardened memory allocator, improved SELinux policies, secure app spawning, hardened browser (Vanadium) which is also used for WebView, etc. LineageOS doesn’t even allow you to relock the bootloader, meaning anyone can modify the system because Android Verified Boot only works with a locked bootloader. It doesn’t have any of the security features that GrapheneOS adds on top of AOSP, it also lacks basic security features from AOSP. It’s ok for tinkering, but I would never use Lineage on a production device. You can read the section about LineageOS of this blog post: madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#lin…
Quote:
No, Google does the same shit. You just decide which big company you give your data to. Or use a Nokia on 2G
But on Google Pixels you can install GrapheneOS, unlike any other Android device
If you install GrapheneOS, then Google doesn’t get any data from you, but they still get the money you spent on the phone. GrapheneOS only supports Google Pixels, for multiple reasons they explain in their FAQ.
Jokes on you, we disable 2G for the sake of 5G frequencies.
Anyone got a source for this claim? I see it repeated often in this thread with no supporting evidence.
I’m not disputing it, I’d just like to know more.
Google has a direct financial motivation to track you through their business model. Just based on that I’d assume Google is performing more data harvesting.
www.tomsguide.com/…/android-ios-data-collection
The full research paper: www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf
If you prefer a video: piped.video/watch?v=nQ9LR8homt4
.
PinePhone
Multiple OS choices, hardware kill switches for connectivity/camera/microphone, expansion pins, etc. Modest specs but for enough functionality to be a daily driver, zero ads or spyware, and infinite customizability, $400 is a steal.
Mine was unusable IMO but maybe I didn’t try hard enough.
Linux phones are not at a point where you can actually daily drive them. They even lack support for basic apps like Signal. The camera and battery on the PinePhone aren’t great either. These are concept phones, but nothing that anyone can actually use. Also, Linux distributions are much less secure than GrapheneOS or even AOSP. And good luck getting normies to use a Linux phone, it’s already hard with desktops, but impossible with phones.
Yeah I’m aware they’re still in a really early/rough state, I definitely used the term pretty loosely. From what I understand they’re capable of reliably texting, calling, light web browsing and maybe playing some audio. If you aren’t someone who frequently/extensively uses your phone, and has decent knowledge of Linux, this may be enough for you. Def not the average user though.
Just have to pay google 800$ to leave the google ecosystem. Seems legit.
My Pixel 6a was 300 bucks
No? There are many other ways to ensure privacy on Android.
Best option: Use a Custom ROM (which Graphene OS is an example of). However, going via this route is almost always a headache, as all devices don’t have specific, stable builds, etc. Also, going this route poses a very real risk of bricking your device.
Easy and safe option (I would recommend this): Buy a device with stock android instead of the crappy MIUI and other variants. Disable all google services and apps and install all your applications from Fdroid. Install a firewall like TC from Fdroid for additional protection.
GrapheneOS is actually very stable and has specific builds for all the devices they support. It only supports Google Pixels, because these are the reference devices that AOSP is built for. They also have great hardware security features like the Titan M series of secure elements.
Not with GrapheneOS. Their easy-to-use web installer makes is basically impossible to break your device during the installation process. It’s really easy and maybe takes 15 minutes.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
No kettle here. The pot sees its reflection in the kettle, kettle being shiny, so the kettle is actually different from the pot. Just one pot calling another pot black in this instance.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/285e3fb2-9fff-48c1-8f64-2e770354e13f.jpeg">
Lmao pot call the kettle
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task failed successfully
HTTP Response 418 I’m a teapot
P sure the only difference is that Apple hoards the data while Google
gives it all awaysells it.Google also doesn’t give it away
Sorry sorry, semantics. Google sells user data.
No they don’t. They sell the ability to display ads to users in a targeted fashion. The user data is how they do that and is their moat. Their entire market advantage is they don’t sell the data, instead you have to continually let them decide who sees your ads to leverage that data.
Google goes to great lengths to make sure only they have this data.
EFF kind of disagrees with your sentiment, which IMO is providing Google with the benefit of the doubt:
eff.org/…/google-says-it-doesnt-sell-your-data-he…
No kettle here. The kettle is shiny and the pot sees its own reflection in the kettle. That’s the meaning of the phrase. Just two pots, one of them pointing out the other is a pot.
Apple literally scans your photo galleries for illegal photos.
Edit, looking into things, it seems like they might have backtracked on this one due to backlash when it was announced.
But only local, look into the source code yourself, heh.
You forget to add /s
If you need an /S here, you deserve the troll.
Righ, just like how three letter agencies definitely don’t have zero-day exploits into your devices (until they remeber about that one they definitely did put in)
My comment was sarcasm
You really think they need that feature to get to your data
I can totally tell tone of voice an intention through text /s
One of many methods.
Don’t be an asshole.
Source?
I assume they’re referring to the now cancelled CSAM wired.com/…/apple-photo-scanning-csam-communicati…
.
theguardian.com/…/apple-plans-to-scan-us-iphones-…
It’s since been backtracked as cited from another article. I was unaware as I don’t use Apple products and only heard about the plans when they were originally announced. I will update my original comment to reflect the feature being backtracked
No they don’t
Australia’s Basic Online Safety Expectations made it required by law:
“If the service uses encryption, the provider of the service will take reasonable steps to develop and implement processes to detect and address material or activity on the service that is or may be unlawful or harmful”
Source: www.legislation.gov.au/Details/…/Text#_Toc9347876… section 8
“Service” sounds more like something such as iCloud than my personal, on-device photo library to me.
Pot calling the kettle black.
Pot calling another pot black. The kettle is shiny and the pot is seeing it’s own reflection, at least in the original meaning of the phrase.
Well, the pot’s not wrong, is it?
In this case they are both pots. The kettle is shiny and the pot sees it’s own reflection, being the original meaning of the phrase.
Not wrong but ironic coming from apple. As if they don’t track and have spyware.
From their own privacy policy they outline what they do:
Literally all of this is what Google does. The only thing Apple does differently is hinder 3rd party apps to a greater degree. But to be fair, Google has been improving the Privacy features of Android with each version.
Surely Apple won’t steal any of your data when they just say “trust me bro” 😊
At least with stock AOSP I can look into what’s going on and see what creepy things are going on. I try to do something similar with apple and I can kiss the air in my lungs goodbye permanently with the way they’d probably hound me.
Wasn’t iOS 14 like the transparency update that shown tiktok seeing everything people are dojng on their phone?
They made sure users knew to only give them their data and not anyone else, yes
For those interested in privacy respecting android, check out GrapheneOS on Pixel: De-googled android that is strong on security and rips google out of your device… Ive been using it for two years and won’t go back. ::: spoiler Title
:::
They’re absolutely right, but the last person who should be pointing that out is Apple, of all people.
Kind of a “takes one to know one” situation here
That’s ironic
And, what is an iPhone?
IPhone scans your photos even!
They say its to protect the children.
LOL!!
Laughs in GrapheneOS and Immich.
iPhone is the same thing, but you don’t have a choice.
A miserable little pile of secrets!
iPhone is Dracula?
The same, but for
richcool peopleI’m pretty sure both iOS and Android are probably permanently backdoor-ed by the NSA, or at least they have a nice list of 0-days to whatever they want lol.
On top of Mobile OSs being the most heavily targeted by nation states, especially back in the early days of cellphones, Android is a massive source tree of java junk garbage with way the hell too many versions. I really would not be surprised if something is discovered a decade from now.
Aside from nation state actors however, Google is probably even worse because they effectively feed on FOSS and force OEMs to do random bs like requiring a crap ton of garbage if you want access to google play, or pretending they actually care about RCS and not about pushing their equally useless gapps.
It really is its own spyware.
That’s rich.
In every sense of the word, huh.
That’s “fuck you” money talking. Apple knows thst it’s audience is basically a cult that would never leave and eats everything the Apple says lol.
Also, there’s GrapheneOS
Yeah, sure… youtu.be/nQ9LR8homt4?si=8s5fGP_3Q8NWOKUX
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/nQ9LR8homt4?si=q7Lhe9a67DO_0IXY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.