After renting a couple cars with electronic door poppers, I find them plainly worse than mechanical door latches. They’re a solution in search of a problem, and some implementations are hazardous.
I hear they are a solution to the problem of increasing mileage/efficiency. I am no fan of Tesla, but we have to admit, there is some merit to that argument, however debatable the efficiency benefits are.
That’s not to say safety isn’t a serious issue. The biggest problem is the reliance on electronics. Now if someone can reinvent the design with a highly reliable mechanical system, with multiple redundancy.
To my knowledge, there are designs which allow you to pop out the latch without the need for electronics.
However, if I’m reading the article correctly those wouldn’t be allowed either because in their default state they don’t have “enough room for a hand to grip behind them”. That wording alone explicitely bans flush doorhandles, and not just electronic doorhandles
The ones that work on springs are inherently dangerous because in the event of a crash it’s very possible that some very important bits of plastic will get misaligned and the handle will get jammed behind the frame. The steel construction of the latch is much less likely to be damaged in a crash
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 Oct 11:58
nextcollapse
Yeah I’m sorry, I’ll take normal door handles over a 0.01% increase in efficiency
I’ve seen three designs for purely mechanical flush door handles in production use:
A handle with a central hinge where one side is pushed inward to make the other side stick out to be pulled. This design has been used on aircraft for many decades, and has also made its way to a few cars.
A pull-up door handle with an additional flap in front of the access area. This was used on the Subaru XT/Alcyone/Vortex.
A handle that pushes in to open, usually found on a portion of the door that’s more horizontal to the ground. Used on the C3 Corvette, among others.
The push-then-pull central hinge is probably not a great choice for the application because its operation will be less obvious to a rescuer trying to get the door open quickly. It’s still better than something that requires electronics.
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 03:12
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The Model 3 / Model Y are push to pull, it’s just not a centred hinge, it’s more to the left side, within the 1st 1/4 or so.
There’s no reason they couldn’t have done that but also make it mechanical if they’d wanted to.
magic_smoke@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 Oct 05:38
nextcollapse
I think having an electric popper on top of an mechanical door latch (actual door handles are standard mechanic, but there’s solenoid that can actuate them independently) is okay if you can find an actual usecase.
I mean sure still stupid but at least it isn’t dangerous.
Same way electric locks have worked for the past 30 years on cars.
An old civic might be able to unlock from a key fob, but that’s only an electronically controlled solenoid controlling a lock which is mechanical in nature, and who’s main user-accessible interaction point is mechanically linked to the lock.
I think having an electric popper on top of an mechanical door latch is okay
The problem with having both is that the electronic one is always the primary one, and the one people will use daily. In particular Tesla hides the mechanical ones really well. So in an emergency situation, people panic and have no idea where it is or how to use it.
Same way electric locks have worked
Electric locks actually serve a purpose though. And they’re not a danger to passengers inside. What purpose do electric door handles serve? Other than being more prone to failure, more expensive, and dangerous?
Prove_your_argument@piefed.social
on 15 Oct 13:43
nextcollapse
What purpose do electric door locks serve? Other than being more prone to failure, more expensive, and dangerous?
An oligarch’s fancy?
I’m sure in product meetings it’s been brought up that it’s a dumb thing and they could save money and make the cars safer by not having them, then the oligarch speaks up.
magic_smoke@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 Oct 15:28
nextcollapse
The problem with having both is that the electronic one is always the primary one, and the one people will use daily.
Yeah that’s the design flaw. Thats literally what im saying they shouldn’t do. You can make a mechanical-first door with an internal solenoid thats capable of popping the door.
The main and only handles on all the doors should be mechanical only, with door popper buttons for all four doors on the driver-side arm rest (where window controls go)
What purpose do electric door handles serve? Other than being more prone to failure, more expensive, and dangerous?
Electric door poppers ARE NOT the same thing as electric door handles, pick a thing to complain about.
POPPERS (IE:solenoids) allow the driver to open doors for passengers, while also ensuring the main way in and out is NOT dependent on electronics.
Unnecessary luxury? Sure, but so are cars in a lot of the world. Solenoids are cheap, and the idea is not inherently a danger when done right.
Your issue isn’t electronically controlled door poppers. Its cars being made by silicon valley, y-combinator sucking, tech-bro douchebags who thought replacing the mechanical handle with a button was a good idea.
The purpose of the electric latch is to save the frameless window panes. It can lower the window slightly in the instant before it opens, to break the seal and avoid torsion on the glass.
Now, frameless windows are stupid and not necessary, so theres that. One dumb idea propagates another.
AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works
on 15 Oct 05:07
nextcollapse
The issues could cascade beyond the design. The auto manufacturing industry operates on strict production schedules. Though it builds in time to validate and test whatever new features come in each new model, the sudden intro of a design change late in the process could throw off the delicate timetable.
FFS, it’s a bloody door handle, not full self driving tech. Author is full of BS.
porcoesphino@mander.xyz
on 15 Oct 06:13
nextcollapse
A lot of upvotes here, and I think they’re ignoring how much is involved in production pipelines and the overhead of sourcing suppliers. That said, Musk has a habit of throwing in last minute changes and the company manages to handle those but much like self driving they ship late
Yeah let’s see, if the handle would have to be a different shape, they may need a different cutout for the door, different handle moulds, different mechanical parts, updated electronics… does anyone have a fucking clue how difficult it is to program one of those robotic arms? How expensive new moulds are? Any other potential knock-on effects this may have on the internal design?
People with the mentality of ‘it’s just a small plug at the bottom of the pool, how bad could it possibly be if we removed it’
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 03:17
nextcollapse
By the time you’re deciding to make all those potential changes, now the question is, if we already have to reprogram the robots, and get new moulds, do we want to make any other changes on this door at the same time, so that we don’t have twice the downtime to make the 2 changes?
They only have to redesign a new door, not an entire car.
Sure, it isn’t as easy adding a dent so you can grab the handle. But it is a lot easier and cheaper than designing a new door, which they do for every new model.
You do not know or believe how much shit has to be pipelined to get a simple change on a car design going on the market. If you have knowledge about computers, you quickly notice that the hardware and software running in a car are OLD. I’ve seen cars sold as new with processors so old, they are “no longer recommended for new designs”. This is because every single thing has to be tested and approved to death in a car. Sometimes several times over.
AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works
on 15 Oct 09:46
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This is because every single thing has to be tested and approved to death in a car.
This is tesla though, how much testing do they actually do before passing it to customers for free QA?
Government’s also tend to introduce grace periods. They announced that they are going to introduce a law and that that law will go into effect on x date. The manufacturing now has plenty of time to sell the current run of vehicles and then alter the design well ahead of the law coming into effect.
You don’t just introduce a law and then implement it the following day. Well Trump does but no body else does.
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 15 Oct 05:17
nextcollapse
Inside or outside? Ik they have issue with inside door handles and safety but I don’t see a need to redesign outside handles?
squaresinger@lemmy.world
on 15 Oct 05:32
nextcollapse
Non-functional outside handles are just as bad as non-functional inside ones. Not always is the person on the inside able to open the door on their own.
The rear interior handles on the 3 and Y absolutely need to be redesigned tho
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 03:23
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As long as the model 3/y were mechanically operated, I’m not sure their push to pull mechanism is bad or a problem, but the model s/x have electronically presenting handles that need power to present themselves as they pop out horizontally, not with a hinge like 3/y, and you can’t really just make that mechanical like you can the model 3/y ones, and the CyberTruck doesn’t even have exterior handles.
And of course their constant insistence on inventing vehicles that already exist but labelling them as a different vehicle, with the capabilities of the already existing vehicle, and somehow insisting that it is a revolutionary idea.
Hey guys look at my cool idea for a train that doesn’t need rails.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world
on 15 Oct 17:10
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That one pisses me off so much. We could have had a high speed rail with actual throughput instead of claims of something better before nothing
Tesla is ran by a Libertarian who is making everything worse. So it fits.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 17 Oct 00:59
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As a libertarian, that’s just not true. Elon Musk isn’t a libertarian either, he’s just an opportunist.
The libertarian solution to things like regulations is court precedent. Setting that precedent should be the job of the attorney general and a jury, and the legislature should only make broad laws.
This hopefully cuts down on government corruption since it’s theoretically harder to buy off a jury than legislators.
And no, that’s not libertarianism. What court precedent would other libertarians give a shit about following? And why should they?
And how do you enforce that with anything other than violence?
Congratulations, you just re-invented government.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 17 Oct 14:46
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What court precedent would other libertarians give a shit about following?
Most libertarians aren’t anarchists. It’s a big tent, but your average libertarian doesn’t even have an end goal in mind, they just want to move in a direction that prioritizes personal liberty and reduces the scope of government.
For example, most libertarians are in favor of:
eliminating TSA, and returning security to airlines and airports
reducing size of the military, and closing foreign bases
eliminating any restrictions on marriage, and even removing the federal government from marriage (should be a private/religious thing)
balancing the budget, mostly through cuts (eliminate whole agencies and departments)
simplifying the immigration system and expanding immigration quotas for work visas
Those all share a theme, reducing the scope of government. The goal isn’t to eliminate the government, but to reduce how much the average person needs to care about it. The job is done once people can do what they like (provided it doesn’t harm anyone else) and not worry about politics.
Right. And surely all libertarians will always agree about which parts of the government need to be reduced.
Every time this shit is tried, it is a miserable failure. At best, they spend years learning the hard way as to why regulations exist. Regulations that were already written in blood, they just can’t be bothered to read the history about them (or they refuse to believe it if they don’t witness it themselves).
We need to stop thinking that we have some kind of hidden knowledge that the people who failed at this before didn’t have, and if we could just try it one more time, it will work this time bro I swear.
As I said, these regulations were written in blood. We don’t need more bloodshed just to relearn the lessons we’ve already learned (sometimes several times) already.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 17 Oct 17:38
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Right. And surely all libertarians will always agree about which parts of the government need to be reduced.
Of course. 😀
As I said, it’s a big tent, so you have everyone from far left anarchists (libertarian socialism/communism) to far right anarchists (anarchocapitalism and similar), as well as a bunch of centrists who want largely the same structure as today, but with a bit more restrictions on what the government can do to private citizens w/o a warrant and what associations people can make. Most seem to want less taxes and government spending overall, but as you imply, they would likely make different cuts.
One recent example:
From the article:
If you’ve ever encountered a freshly minted Ayn Rand enthusiast, you know what I mean.
Ayn Rand hated libertarians, and her followers (Objectivists) are likewise generally disliked by libertarians. Many libertarians find value in her works, but not necessarily as a complete solution, but as a direction. The underlying principles are completely different, with Ayn Rand and Objectivists generally believing that selfishness is best, while libertarianism’s foundational belief is a ban on the initiation of force (generally, but there are a lot of variations, like those who put private property first). Under objectivism, littering would only be bad if someone owned the property you littered on, whereas under libertarianism, littering is bad because it’s a form of force against others in the area (they have to see and/or clean up that trash).
That said, I think it’s important to note that something like this will attract the crazies. Most people won’t uproot their lives to go join some philosophical/political movement, they’ll just try to improve things where they are. So you’re going to get the more extreme ends of the libertarian spectrum that would be interested in moving there, especially those who can easily move on a whim (i.e. lots of money and/or no family attachments). This is going to attract those who want all the benefits of liberty without any of the consequences.
Ideally, shifts are gradual, so we can gauge whether things are getting better or worse, and the shift should be in the direction of more liberty. As people get accustomed to the additional responsibilities of increased liberty, we can continue making changes. People have gotten used to delegating their responsibilities to governments, and that mindset needs to change back to one where people are more aware of their impact on the world.
Sam Brownbeck’s adminstration in Kansas
Not a libertarian.
Tax cuts should only happen if spending cuts create a surplus. Brownbeck put the cart before the horse, and ended up needing to cut important spending to fuel the tax cuts, whereas the right way to do it is to make cuts on non-essential spending and cut taxes due to budget surplus. Most libertarians (outside those that believe starving the government of tax dollars is the way to go) will tell you we need a balanced budget first, tax cuts second.
The right way to do it IMO is closer to the way Utah is doing it (again, not libertarian, but probably closer than Brownbeck). I use this example because that’s where I live, so I know it better than most other states. Basically, Utah has a balanced budget clause in the constitution that requires the state legislature to pass a balanced budget. As such, we generally don’t have budget deficits, and when there’s a surplus, the legislature cuts taxes (income tax has dropped 0.5% over the past 10 years or so, in 0.05% and 0.1% increments; state sales tax has been 4-5% for 50 years). We also limit income taxes to education expenses, and since people generally don’t like high sales taxes (used for most other expenses), it puts downward pressure on spending.
If Utah was run by a libertarian, here are the shifts I’d expect to see:
make transportation self-sufficient, by increasing vehicle registration taxes, adding toll roads, etc
push to move more students to charter schools, since they seem to cost less and perform well (source from Sutherland Institute, a conservative think-tank in SLC, Utah, so be careful of bias)
look into ways to reduce social service spending
reduce criminal justice spending by legalizing/decriminalizing non-violent crimes (i.e. crimes w/o a victim), such as drug possession
If that yields enough spending reduction, then cut taxes. My personal preference is to eliminate the tax on groceries as it’s completely regressive (currently 3%, which is a bit under half the local sales tax, which is about 7.5% after city and county taxes are included
But I will never subscribe to your ideology. I think you should reconsider everything.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 18 Oct 03:36
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That’s fine, and I’d probably say the same about yours.
My point in all of this is to say that changes should be gradual, and policy makers should adjust based on the results. The main issue w/ people like Brownbeck and Trump is they don’t do that, but instead go full steam ahead on whatever agenda they have planned. Rapid changes in any direction are generally bad in the short to medium term. I think we should steer the ship toward personal liberty, you may disagree, but hopefully we can agree that policy should be an iterative process where we take two steps forward and one step back based on the data.
EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com
on 15 Oct 05:57
nextcollapse
Could they just use regular fucking door handles?
I remember when people kept trying to assert that Tesla is a “luxury” brand, though it seems that this pretense has finally been dropped. Even so, surely they can figure out something that doesn’t seem to be an issue for even the cheapest tier of vehicles available in USDM.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
on 15 Oct 07:05
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Unless you’re planning to drive your car around at about 150 miles per hour I don’t imagine that the aerodynamicism of door handles really comes into account. Especially since you’ve still got wing mirrors, wipers, and aerials on the car.
Source on that? Hobbiest aerodynamics nerd and big into F1 (and did a lot of liquid system design engineering in a previous job). Genuinely curious!
My gut feel is that a half kilo of unsprung weight (those ridiculous wheels), tighter fenders, or a bit of tail teardropping would go so much further than anything door-handle-wise. It’s certainly helping promote flow attachment, but you’ve got poor flow rates there because of the wing mirrors anywa
I’m talking out of my ass. I’m big into (mostly sim) racing myself, but I have no formal training or experience. You probably know way more about it than me!
If you’re a racing nerd then you know how strong the suckage can be. My car uses premium fuel and I get about 7L/100km on the highway. That adds up on long trips, so I try to save fuel when I can. I’ve tried drafting behind transport trucks. Even at only 90 kmph, I was able to get that number down to 5L/100km.
Electric vehicles have a lot of design features to cut down on aerodynamic and mechanical drag. Special hub caps, no grilles, low drag tires, etc. for the purpose of helping their main problem and selling point: the vehicle’s range on a single charge. I assumed the flush door handles were just another design feature for reducing aerodynamic drag, where every little bit counts.
Again, this is all out of my ass. I am well aware that aerodynamics are far far more complex than “smooth = better”, and that most cars are probably already designed so the door handles aren’t a problem. Maybe the door handles make no difference and having them flush is just optics for Tesla.
Ah cool! After i raced irl for like a decade I sim raced for a while. It was super fun! I’d like to get back into it someday. It’s a lot better on the wallet and body than IRL stuff (especially motorcycles).
I think it helps, but it probably is more of a selling point and aesthetic than an actual help on the (agreed) biggest selling point number.
It’s one of those decisions that someone up top probably made and has these kinds of stupid consequences of moving fast and breaking shit. I wouldn’t be upset if it had to go to a normal one
I’ve been into sim racing for nearly a decade. There’s never been a better time to get into it IMO.
Sim racing games and equipment have gotten significantly better and cheaper over the last 5 years. Hydraulic pedals and direct drive wheelbases did exist, but they were in the $2k-$4k price range. Now you can get high quality gear with that technology for under $500.
iRacing and Assetto Corsa are still the kings, but we are spoiled for choice when it comes to excellent sims.
If you are any kind of gearhead you’ll love it. There are even thriving sub-hobbies for things like bass shakers and motion platforms, which add back some of the seat feeling that you miss out on versus IRL.
Did you do motorcycle racing IRL? I’ve seen crazy motorcycle sim builds with motion, lean, etc., but I don’t think serious simulators exist yet. I’d love to see it.
As for Tesla, I don’t think we can know unless a Tesla engineer/aerodynamicist chimes in. There are other more serious examples of executive meddling in engineering, like the use of visual cameras instead of radar/lidar. Working for them must be a hair-pulling experience for their engineers.
Yeah, I actually frequented a sim center when I lived in the US. They ran Rfactor2 but it got me doing some iRacing too. It was great fun! I can’t believe how real a lot of it felt. Honestly except for elevation not translating well it was an insane practice tool
Yeah, only IRL for a bike. If they made a really legit sim rig I’d probably have to seriously consider it!
I saw a marketing blurb for the 2026 Nissan Leaf. They are also going with flush handles (hopefully a safer design) and claimed it for reduced drag to increase range. But, market, so could be just short of an outright lie.
Kudos for your humility, but you just said that you have no idea the magnitude.
I didn’t mean to discount your awareness of the margins of optimization. It’s quite a thing moving the needle in an established market (not to mention the money and years of R&D). But this ain’t it
Do you know the magnitude? If not, we’re both talking out of our asses. There must be some research or wind tunnel data out there about this, but I don’t have the numbers and I don’t know where to look.
I was thinking about my comment today and that I was being a grouchy meanie. Sorry!
No I don’t know the numbers, but yeah vehicle aero tests, even at full scale are very doable. CFDs probably sufficient too. You said you’re a formula fan iirc, so that’s probably something you hear about plenty.
Being able to quickly get out of a burning car is important. If you only ever use the electronic door handle and your electrical system is damaged by…the fire, then you are much more likely to burn. The same problem exists on the outside of the car as rescuers have a harder time getting in to save people.
Getting stuck outside of the car in the winter is also pretty common when there is not a good place to grab when the door is covered in ice.
Car manufacturers have been making normal door handles for forever. Tesla ‘fixed’ something that wasn’t broken.
Whostosay@sh.itjust.works
on 15 Oct 16:45
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I was more talking shit on news organizations. Agreed, that should be no brainer legislation that already exists, similar to fire code in buildings.
Sure, for anything else than a car. But I don’t want to have to look at it while driving 250km/h, I want to feel if I have the right button and also pressed it. Pure safety.
Everywhere else I’d surely prefer a touchscreen over haptic buttons. I mean I have through this great tech-evolution, I love it. But it all has its place, and the car doesn’t seem like the right place for it. At least not for everything.
Fair. But most of these cars have voice controls that are even safer than using an array of buttons. I’ve never felt unsafe in my wife’s Tesla except when they once moved the defrost control early on. But that was when I started using the voice controls and never look back (haha - unintentional play on words there). My Kia won’t even let you use the touch screen to type in an address while it’s in drive - however it’s voice control for navigation is terrible. But it allows car play and Siri is plenty adequate for voice control with navigation.
If you look at like a mid-2000s Infiniti or Lexus there’s a button for fucking everything but many of them will be set once and then never touched again, or maybe used a couple times/year.
Things like moving the seat or drive modes or changing system settings. Those things can be safely tucked away in a menu.
Things like climate control, headlights, wipers and particularly media functions you might use constantly and should be physical.
You can also combine the 2. I’ve seen this on like the Hummer EV and BMWs. Mechanical buttons that do whatever is denoted on the screen above them, and change based on context.
Touchscreens are mandatory for backup cameras, might as well get some extra use out of them.
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org
on 15 Oct 12:10
nextcollapse
Who cares? You only have yourself to blame for buying a Tesla.
Dude, you act like you’ve never been burned by someone in your life. Instead of shaming people for purchasing something and getting burned, we should all be getting together and shaming the companies that are enshitified.
I did, in 2020, and I liked everything except the range. Moved from that to a more invasive Chinese BYD, no regrets. My Han has electronic AND mechanical door handles.
its_kim_love@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 16 Oct 15:03
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Will it? I’m skeptical of the translation since it’s obviously loose and casual, and more optimistic with the quote from Tesla saying they’re redesigning it …
article says mechanical release handles inside and out. Tesla model y could already be here depending on the details
articles says a hand must fit behind the handle, ruling out flush handles, but depending on the details, the model y may a
Ready be there, as is the Opel Corsa in this thread
no mention of the electronic latch. I don’t get it, wouldn’t this be the actual most dangerous part?
aesthelete@lemmy.world
on 15 Oct 13:41
nextcollapse
I hate fucking “flush handles”. Good riddance to terrible garbage.
pineapplelover@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 15 Oct 16:19
nextcollapse
I find them cool. But if they become unusable in freezing weather or kill people because of an overcomplex emergency release from the inside?..
They’re like an idea a twelve year old Steve Jobs / Jony Ive wannabe would come up with.
iloveDigit@sh.itjust.works
on 16 Oct 04:30
nextcollapse
At least they work as a quick visual cue that a car is designed with zero utilitarians in the room
innermachine@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 11:08
nextcollapse
I knew. A guy with a fully shaved mr2 (yes that means no door handles). Doors opened with a remote to operate the latch. He also had a cable run down under the side skirt, so if it failed you could manually pull the cable to get the door oprn. This was put together by a 24 year old in school, not some “genius”
I had a 1989 Ford Probe without a handle that stuck out like a typical car. It was recessed instead.
Better for fuel efficiency, which was also the intention of these stupid flush mount ones Tesla has been fawning over. But these were still manual door handles designed 40ish years ago…
Is this because the door handle is some complicated electronic mechanism rather than a latch? Gee who could have possibly predicted that would be a problem.
My neighbour has a Tesla and last year I had great fun watching her trying to defrost her car enough to get the door handle to even come out.
I have had to put quite a bit of force into a car door to get it to open on many an occasion. (Ice is a bitch) A normal door handle just works, stop trying to fix it!
I hate the little flip up style handle on my car, known for its winter capability, which regularly freezes enough that you’re afraid it’ll break if you pull any harder
Many modern car doors do not have a frame around the top of the window. So to not damage the window or seal in the door frame, they temporary lower it a bit using electricity. I’m sure Tesla would be incompetent enough to make it so there’s no decent way to do it without this feature.
Seriously. Every other car maker has figured out how to make normal door handles. You can even buy the parts directly from them if you find it too hard to design yourself.
The point is that the entire passenger entry system has been designed around electronic door handles. So you might think it’s as simple as just swapping them for mechanical ones but it’s not.
The handles are really just buttons. Requests to a computer.
The “locks” are just a binary state of the entry system that determines if conditions are satisfied to release the mechanical latch when the request is made.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 17 Oct 00:49
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We’ve had electronic door locks with manual override for… 3 decades now?
We’re not talking about door locks, but door latches and handles. There are no “locks” on Teslas. As I said “locked” is just a state in the computer.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 17 Oct 13:15
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“Lock” is a term for the mechanism that controls the latch and restricts operation. Whether the access mechanism is digital (key card, remote, etc) or physical (key, dial, etc) is irrelevant.
My point is it’s a solved problem. You can have a mixed physical and digital system. In fact, Teslas already have a mixed system as evidenced by the existence of a mechanical override. The issue is that the mechanical override is difficult to use and inaccessible from the outside.
If Tesla used something that already exists, we wouldn’t have this problem. It can still have the same interface (the button in the handle on both sides), just simplify the mechanical override and expose a way to access it from outside.
“Lock” is a term for the mechanism that controls the latch and restricts operation.
Again, there is no such mechanism.
Whether the access mechanism is digital (key card, remote, etc) or physical (key, dial, etc) is irrelevant.
It’s none of these things.
If Tesla used something that already exists, we wouldn’t have this problem.
But they didn’t. So the problem exists.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 17 Oct 13:40
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Again, there is no such mechanism.
Then how does the door stay closed? If I walk up to someone else’s Tesla, I can’t open it. Why? Because it’s locked. If the owner walks up, they can open it. Why? Because they have the key.
Yes, the lock works differently than many other cars, but there’s still a lock.
You’re thinking of the door latch, not the door lock.
the lock works differently than many other cars, but there’s still a lock.
Again, there is no physical locking mechanism. That’s what’s different from any other cars in history.
Here’s an article that talks about how the manual release works
The mechanical latch is on the interior of the vehicle, thus bypassing any “locking” methods. You can’t do the same on the exterior.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 17 Oct 14:54
nextcollapse
The lock is what prevents the latch from unlatching without some authentication mechanism present. Whether it’s a software lock or a physical lock is irrelevant.
And you can absolutely do the same on the exterior: add a physical lock that interacts with the latch. That’s basically how every other car works. Basically, there’s a motor to release the latch for electronic locks, and the key and handle intact with the latch directly. There’s no reason Tesla cars couldn’t satisfy that interaction. They could even have the handle pull charge a small microcontroller that scans the key card if they really don’t want a purely mechanical lock for some reason.
And you can absolutely do the same on the exterior: add a physical lock that interacts with the latch.
No, you can’t. Because, again, there is no method available to lock and unlock the door.
Whether it’s a software lock or a physical lock is irrelevant.
No it is not. If you want mechanical door handles, you also need mechanical door locks. A computer cannot unlock a mechanical door handle without a mechanical door lock mechanism. Adding a mechanical door lock means rethinking the entirety of the passenger entry system, as they currently function completely differently, as I’ve described above.
That’s basically how every other car work.
Again, that is not how this car works.
There’s no reason Tesla cars couldn’t satisfy that interaction.
I think you’ve lost the topic of this conversation. The topic is not that it’s impossible. It’s that it’s “harder than it sounds”.
We are going round and round here and I keep repeating myself over and over but I’m clearly not getting through to you so I’m gonna call it a day.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 17 Oct 16:22
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as I’ve described above
But you haven’t described it. At least not in a way that proves that it would require a substantial change.
Here’s a video that talks about the manual latch release. Basically, each door has a cable that runs through the interior to manually release the door latch in case the battery fails or something. It bypasses the electronic-controlled locking system and goes straight to the latch.
I’m saying that adding a lock to the exterior wouldn’t require a massive design change, it just needs to interact with the existing cable mechanism (or add a separate cable) to release the latch.
That’s largely how other cars do it, except they have a physical lock there as well, which controls whether the exterior (or interior, depending on the child safety pin) handle connects to the latch. The difference w/ a Tesla is mostly that there is no physical lock, only an electronic lock, but the latch release system is similar enough that they could add it without massive changes to the rest of the door design. If they wanted to retrofit existing cars, they’d probably need to drill a hole to add the locking system, and then add a cable to the interior of the door. For future cars, they could change how the door handle is designed and probably leave the rest of the door design the same by adding some mechanical system and cable to the handle and nearby area of the door. I haven’t torn apart a Tesla door, but I highly doubt there’s anything special going on there (and I did see a teardown of a Cybertruck door and there was plenty of space to add mechanisms there).
Reverendender@sh.itjust.works
on 20 Oct 03:06
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The JUST SAID there already exists a manual override. Just make it accessible from the exterior. Problem solved. Shut the fuck up.
harder than it sounds… yeah the technology isn’t there yet! we need research and scientific breakthrough to invent a door handle that you can actually handle. no one’s even thought of the concept before.
You’ve posted this in multiple places without explaining yourself, and your subsequent follow-ups have also just been questioning the person’s credentials and offering nothing of your own. You’re a classic example of the bullshit asymmetry principle, flooding the thread with low effort trolling.
slaneesh_is_right@lemmy.org
on 17 Oct 10:48
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I can’t wait for elon musk to invent the door handle. I hope it’s another display
A quick search says they do crash testing, is this bullshit?
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 02:57
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Of course they do crash testing, you can go watch videos of it if you want. That’s just a bot, or someone who knows fuck all. Their cars are always top ranked in crash saftey.
Won’t catch me dead driving a tesla but obviously they test safety in order to pass regulations lol
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 03:30
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I mean… if they didn’t test their cars, they really must have the best engineers in the world, being able to go from just engineering plans to getting a 5 star saftey rating at all the agencies. Those engineers would be worth their weight in gold lol.
iloveDigit@sh.itjust.works
on 16 Oct 04:27
nextcollapse
Top ranked for the people inside the cars. Not so safe for the people mining the material to replace cars that get totaled, etc. but most people don’t give enough of a fuck to count anyone but the occupants of the car
It’s the one of the safest trucks for occupants in crashes ever built.
Edit: Just to add, that they also keep updating based on results from saftey agencies. The CT initially scored a 5 for driver and 4 for front passenger, but it has been updated to now to be 5/5.
Well, it was found that water pools in the chassis of the Cybertruck, corroding it. They dealt with this by telling consumers not to get it wet and make taking it through a carwash void the warrantee.
They don’t have to redesign an entire car, just the internal parts of a door that are related to a handle, that in the past they made work mechanically btw, so no, 2 years is more than enough to redesign and start implementing it
Redesigning the handle by 2027 is stupid easy. I have an masters in mechanical engineering, this could be done with mostly off the shelf parts. Tesla is being a bitch like normal.
Your skill doesn’t translate into supply chain management, testing timelines, manufacturing setups, all that. Dad was a civil engineer. Didn’t mean he could run a road laying company.
Shit. Forgot where I was. My post is sucking Elon’s dick and excusing Tesla for fuck ups.
FFS, the issues I’m citing are in the article and they’re not quotes from Tesla. Lay off the fucking witch hunt.
Well fuck it, I guess I’m ready to take the next step in my radicalization.
The best wording I can think of is late stage capitalism. Someone should be eating their lunch
mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 03:47
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so in your mind, what happens when a recall occurs and some defective part is replaced with another part? do you think they run these replacements through all your supply chain management testing setups all that huh?
or they don’t replace the defects?
?
no, this happens all the time. it allows manufacturers to respond to systems that didn’t age well, or didn’t stand up to public users, or children, or was unsafe in a way that didn’t present itself during testing. these things happen. manufacturers make adjustments, replace parts, change software, and put it back out on the road.
iloveDigit@sh.itjust.works
on 16 Oct 04:28
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Shit. Forgot where I was. My post is sucking Elon’s dick and excusing Tesla for fuck ups.
Unironically yes, you’re all over this story flooding the zone with shit to try discrediting the whole thing, despite having nothing of substance to offer beyond asserting that nobody knows anything except for you and Elon.
I read the article, and I’m calling bullshit on the excuses they’re putting up. The fact that they usually prefer a five year cycle, does not mean that it’s difficult to change the handles on the doors in two years if you need to.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 16 Oct 04:43
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they got lazy, they fully adopted the electronic one, and dint want to “waste money” bringing back the old one, in thier recent and future models.
deczzz@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 15 Oct 21:12
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Wtf is “willingness to work from design-first principles”? Do Wired realize that the form of the handle follows the function of designing for better aerodynamics?
Pretty sure they’re using “design” to mean “aesthetics” in that sentence. I do think we need to less often use “design” to refer specifically to aesthetics or graphic design; every object and system that humans have made are designed.
Demonmariner@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 00:12
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I read the article. It sounds like the auto makers concern is that they don’t think they have been given enough time to solve the problem (the problem being one which may kill people while we wait for a solution).
I think we should give them all the time they want, as long as they stop selling cars without safe door handles RIGHT NOW.
lechekaflan@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 04:16
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Whatever. Luxury e-cars are the new Bimmers.
innermachine@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 11:03
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They wish. My 30 year old $2500 bmw e36 was nicer inside than the last model 3 I had the misfortune of sitting in, and was the most reliable car I’ve owned. Straight 6 And 5 speed, beaten and slid daily until I sold it with 200k miles. My biggest problem with that car was keeping back tires on it. Man some days I wish I never sold that car… Moved north and a slammed 2wd car isn’t gonna get me to work over the mountain pass in the winter. Now I drive a POS 2012 Subaru with fried oil control rings. If the bimmer had a LSD I probably would still be driving it 🤬
TheMinister@sh.itjust.works
on 16 Oct 13:39
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Like zim zimma? That kind of bimma?
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 14:26
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Nah, BMWs were actually pretty great, for a time. Well put-together, fairly reliable, engaging to drive, very comfortable, pleasantly designed.
I daily drive a 2003 E39 5 series with 260,000 miles on the clock. Mechanically it’s great.
I did have to sort some rust out a while back, but that’s par for the course in the UK. Salted roads, never far from the sea, constantly damp roads spraying all that salty road grime under the car. For the love of god people, rust protect your cars.
Duamerthrax@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 17:39
nextcollapse
I’ve been telling people to look for a shop that can do a wax film coat when they do the oil change. Super simple job when the car is already on the lift.
I’m saying so rather sarcastically because where I live, e-cars, especially BYDs and Teeeeezlus, are becoming status symbols for people with fuck-you money.
AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 10:29
nextcollapse
Big government is oppressing small businesses again! Thanks Obama!
Crashumbc@lemmy.world
on 16 Oct 20:02
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The problem is this bullshit was allowed on the road in the first place.
muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works
on 16 Oct 23:24
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I love that this happens after little bitch Elon does Trumps bidding. Almost like that’s literally never worked out well for anyone.
threaded - newest
After renting a couple cars with electronic door poppers, I find them plainly worse than mechanical door latches. They’re a solution in search of a problem, and some implementations are hazardous.
I hear they are a solution to the problem of increasing mileage/efficiency. I am no fan of Tesla, but we have to admit, there is some merit to that argument, however debatable the efficiency benefits are.
That’s not to say safety isn’t a serious issue. The biggest problem is the reliance on electronics. Now if someone can reinvent the design with a highly reliable mechanical system, with multiple redundancy.
To my knowledge, there are designs which allow you to pop out the latch without the need for electronics.
However, if I’m reading the article correctly those wouldn’t be allowed either because in their default state they don’t have “enough room for a hand to grip behind them”. That wording alone explicitely bans flush doorhandles, and not just electronic doorhandles
The ones that work on springs are inherently dangerous because in the event of a crash it’s very possible that some very important bits of plastic will get misaligned and the handle will get jammed behind the frame. The steel construction of the latch is much less likely to be damaged in a crash
Yeah I’m sorry, I’ll take normal door handles over a 0.01% increase in efficiency
Insert that meme of the dude with: You get 0.001 more mileage, I get customers with crap door handles.
I’ve seen three designs for purely mechanical flush door handles in production use:
The push-then-pull central hinge is probably not a great choice for the application because its operation will be less obvious to a rescuer trying to get the door open quickly. It’s still better than something that requires electronics.
The Model 3 / Model Y are push to pull, it’s just not a centred hinge, it’s more to the left side, within the 1st 1/4 or so.
There’s no reason they couldn’t have done that but also make it mechanical if they’d wanted to.
I think having an electric popper on top of an mechanical door latch (actual door handles are standard mechanic, but there’s solenoid that can actuate them independently) is okay if you can find an actual usecase.
I mean sure still stupid but at least it isn’t dangerous.
Same way electric locks have worked for the past 30 years on cars.
An old civic might be able to unlock from a key fob, but that’s only an electronically controlled solenoid controlling a lock which is mechanical in nature, and who’s main user-accessible interaction point is mechanically linked to the lock.
The problem with having both is that the electronic one is always the primary one, and the one people will use daily. In particular Tesla hides the mechanical ones really well. So in an emergency situation, people panic and have no idea where it is or how to use it.
Electric locks actually serve a purpose though. And they’re not a danger to passengers inside. What purpose do electric door handles serve? Other than being more prone to failure, more expensive, and dangerous?
An oligarch’s fancy?
I’m sure in product meetings it’s been brought up that it’s a dumb thing and they could save money and make the cars safer by not having them, then the oligarch speaks up.
Yeah that’s the design flaw. Thats literally what im saying they shouldn’t do. You can make a mechanical-first door with an internal solenoid thats capable of popping the door.
The main and only handles on all the doors should be mechanical only, with door popper buttons for all four doors on the driver-side arm rest (where window controls go)
Electric door poppers ARE NOT the same thing as electric door handles, pick a thing to complain about.
POPPERS (IE:solenoids) allow the driver to open doors for passengers, while also ensuring the main way in and out is NOT dependent on electronics.
Unnecessary luxury? Sure, but so are cars in a lot of the world. Solenoids are cheap, and the idea is not inherently a danger when done right.
Your issue isn’t electronically controlled door poppers. Its cars being made by silicon valley, y-combinator sucking, tech-bro douchebags who thought replacing the mechanical handle with a button was a good idea.
.
The purpose of the electric latch is to save the frameless window panes. It can lower the window slightly in the instant before it opens, to break the seal and avoid torsion on the glass.
Now, frameless windows are stupid and not necessary, so theres that. One dumb idea propagates another.
You don’t need an electric latch to have frameless windows. Pretty much every car before with frameless windows did not have them.
This doesn’t pass a sanity check.
A mechanical handle that actuates when deflected 30 degrees can trip a microswitch at 10 degrees to slightly open the window.
That’s exactly how they work in Mercedes cars
They were hazardous when they were on Corvettes too. They should have banned them back then.
The rental cars in question were, in fact Corvettes. Corvettes are still using them.
Oof
im occasional ride in my parents leased ioniq5 and the door handles are lik teslas, very flimsy to the feel.
Load of uninformed B.S. from the supply chain expert. There’s not a door out there that isn’t full of empty space.
Bus door
Points! :-)
FFS, it’s a bloody door handle, not full self driving tech. Author is full of BS.
A lot of upvotes here, and I think they’re ignoring how much is involved in production pipelines and the overhead of sourcing suppliers. That said, Musk has a habit of throwing in last minute changes and the company manages to handle those but much like self driving they ship late
Yeah let’s see, if the handle would have to be a different shape, they may need a different cutout for the door, different handle moulds, different mechanical parts, updated electronics… does anyone have a fucking clue how difficult it is to program one of those robotic arms? How expensive new moulds are? Any other potential knock-on effects this may have on the internal design?
People with the mentality of ‘it’s just a small plug at the bottom of the pool, how bad could it possibly be if we removed it’
By the time you’re deciding to make all those potential changes, now the question is, if we already have to reprogram the robots, and get new moulds, do we want to make any other changes on this door at the same time, so that we don’t have twice the downtime to make the 2 changes?
They only have to redesign a new door, not an entire car.
Sure, it isn’t as easy adding a dent so you can grab the handle. But it is a lot easier and cheaper than designing a new door, which they do for every new model.
You do not know or believe how much shit has to be pipelined to get a simple change on a car design going on the market. If you have knowledge about computers, you quickly notice that the hardware and software running in a car are OLD. I’ve seen cars sold as new with processors so old, they are “no longer recommended for new designs”. This is because every single thing has to be tested and approved to death in a car. Sometimes several times over.
This is tesla though, how much testing do they actually do before passing it to customers for free QA?
The part that the law demands has probably been tested. But I think the US is less stringent with that than our EU.
Government’s also tend to introduce grace periods. They announced that they are going to introduce a law and that that law will go into effect on x date. The manufacturing now has plenty of time to sell the current run of vehicles and then alter the design well ahead of the law coming into effect.
You don’t just introduce a law and then implement it the following day. Well Trump does but no body else does.
Inside or outside? Ik they have issue with inside door handles and safety but I don’t see a need to redesign outside handles?
www.bloomberg.com/…/2025-tesla-dangerous-doors/
Non-functional outside handles are just as bad as non-functional inside ones. Not always is the person on the inside able to open the door on their own.
So those would be the model S and X electric outside handles and not the 3 and Y mechanical ones? Yeah, that seems like a safety issue.
The rear interior handles on the 3 and Y absolutely need to be redesigned tho
As long as the model 3/y were mechanically operated, I’m not sure their push to pull mechanism is bad or a problem, but the model s/x have electronically presenting handles that need power to present themselves as they pop out horizontally, not with a hinge like 3/y, and you can’t really just make that mechanical like you can the model 3/y ones, and the CyberTruck doesn’t even have exterior handles.
Tesla disregarded all knowledge about automotive door safety to make a more expensive and much more dangerous door handle.
Audi is following in all their new models…
🤮
This is what libertarians do for literally everything.
Hyperloop!
And of course their constant insistence on inventing vehicles that already exist but labelling them as a different vehicle, with the capabilities of the already existing vehicle, and somehow insisting that it is a revolutionary idea.
Hey guys look at my cool idea for a train that doesn’t need rails.
That one pisses me off so much. We could have had a high speed rail with actual throughput instead of claims of something better before nothing
Libertarians are just people too dumb to understand code requirements in every industry and profession.
The only thing libertarians understand is that they can make more money if they charge a full price for a half-ass job.
Or selfish. Unfortunately Hanlon’s razor can only cut so deep.
Did you just take a complete left turn into politics land?
This article is about automotive regulations. It was never not politics.
They didn’t reply to the article, they replied to a comment about Tesla making dumb choices.
Tesla is ran by a Libertarian who is making everything worse. So it fits.
As a libertarian, that’s just not true. Elon Musk isn’t a libertarian either, he’s just an opportunist.
The libertarian solution to things like regulations is court precedent. Setting that precedent should be the job of the attorney general and a jury, and the legislature should only make broad laws.
This hopefully cuts down on government corruption since it’s theoretically harder to buy off a jury than legislators.
Man this comment is so fucking naive.
And no, that’s not libertarianism. What court precedent would other libertarians give a shit about following? And why should they?
And how do you enforce that with anything other than violence?
Congratulations, you just re-invented government.
Most libertarians aren’t anarchists. It’s a big tent, but your average libertarian doesn’t even have an end goal in mind, they just want to move in a direction that prioritizes personal liberty and reduces the scope of government.
For example, most libertarians are in favor of:
Those all share a theme, reducing the scope of government. The goal isn’t to eliminate the government, but to reduce how much the average person needs to care about it. The job is done once people can do what they like (provided it doesn’t harm anyone else) and not worry about politics.
Right. And surely all libertarians will always agree about which parts of the government need to be reduced.
Every time this shit is tried, it is a miserable failure. At best, they spend years learning the hard way as to why regulations exist. Regulations that were already written in blood, they just can’t be bothered to read the history about them (or they refuse to believe it if they don’t witness it themselves).
One recent example: vox.com/…/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libert…
See also: Sam Brownbeck’s adminstration in Kansas:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment
npr.org/…/as-trump-proposes-tax-cuts-kansas-deals…
cbpp.org/…/timeline-5-years-of-kansas-tax-cut-dis…
motherjones.com/…/kansas-repubicans-gop-small-gov…
We need to stop thinking that we have some kind of hidden knowledge that the people who failed at this before didn’t have, and if we could just try it one more time, it will work this time bro I swear.
As I said, these regulations were written in blood. We don’t need more bloodshed just to relearn the lessons we’ve already learned (sometimes several times) already.
Of course. 😀
As I said, it’s a big tent, so you have everyone from far left anarchists (libertarian socialism/communism) to far right anarchists (anarchocapitalism and similar), as well as a bunch of centrists who want largely the same structure as today, but with a bit more restrictions on what the government can do to private citizens w/o a warrant and what associations people can make. Most seem to want less taxes and government spending overall, but as you imply, they would likely make different cuts.
From the article:
Ayn Rand hated libertarians, and her followers (Objectivists) are likewise generally disliked by libertarians. Many libertarians find value in her works, but not necessarily as a complete solution, but as a direction. The underlying principles are completely different, with Ayn Rand and Objectivists generally believing that selfishness is best, while libertarianism’s foundational belief is a ban on the initiation of force (generally, but there are a lot of variations, like those who put private property first). Under objectivism, littering would only be bad if someone owned the property you littered on, whereas under libertarianism, littering is bad because it’s a form of force against others in the area (they have to see and/or clean up that trash).
That said, I think it’s important to note that something like this will attract the crazies. Most people won’t uproot their lives to go join some philosophical/political movement, they’ll just try to improve things where they are. So you’re going to get the more extreme ends of the libertarian spectrum that would be interested in moving there, especially those who can easily move on a whim (i.e. lots of money and/or no family attachments). This is going to attract those who want all the benefits of liberty without any of the consequences.
Ideally, shifts are gradual, so we can gauge whether things are getting better or worse, and the shift should be in the direction of more liberty. As people get accustomed to the additional responsibilities of increased liberty, we can continue making changes. People have gotten used to delegating their responsibilities to governments, and that mindset needs to change back to one where people are more aware of their impact on the world.
Not a libertarian.
Tax cuts should only happen if spending cuts create a surplus. Brownbeck put the cart before the horse, and ended up needing to cut important spending to fuel the tax cuts, whereas the right way to do it is to make cuts on non-essential spending and cut taxes due to budget surplus. Most libertarians (outside those that believe starving the government of tax dollars is the way to go) will tell you we need a balanced budget first, tax cuts second.
The right way to do it IMO is closer to the way Utah is doing it (again, not libertarian, but probably closer than Brownbeck). I use this example because that’s where I live, so I know it better than most other states. Basically, Utah has a balanced budget clause in the constitution that requires the state legislature to pass a balanced budget. As such, we generally don’t have budget deficits, and when there’s a surplus, the legislature cuts taxes (income tax has dropped 0.5% over the past 10 years or so, in 0.05% and 0.1% increments; state sales tax has been 4-5% for 50 years). We also limit income taxes to education expenses, and since people generally don’t like high sales taxes (used for most other expenses), it puts downward pressure on spending.
If Utah was run by a libertarian, here are the shifts I’d expect to see:
If that yields enough spending reduction, then cut taxes. My personal preference is to eliminate the tax on groceries as it’s completely regressive (currently 3%, which is a bit under half the local sales tax, which is about 7.5% after city and county taxes are included
I appreciate that you put time into this comment.
But I will never subscribe to your ideology. I think you should reconsider everything.
That’s fine, and I’d probably say the same about yours.
My point in all of this is to say that changes should be gradual, and policy makers should adjust based on the results. The main issue w/ people like Brownbeck and Trump is they don’t do that, but instead go full steam ahead on whatever agenda they have planned. Rapid changes in any direction are generally bad in the short to medium term. I think we should steer the ship toward personal liberty, you may disagree, but hopefully we can agree that policy should be an iterative process where we take two steps forward and one step back based on the data.
Could they just use regular fucking door handles?
I remember when people kept trying to assert that Tesla is a “luxury” brand, though it seems that this pretense has finally been dropped. Even so, surely they can figure out something that doesn’t seem to be an issue for even the cheapest tier of vehicles available in USDM.
They can, it’s an article out of the air.
.
Opel Corsa 1993 presents:
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/d7910d2d-c374-4526-b512-806718bf5c5c.webp">
Flat aerodynamic door handles.
With two doors, half the problem is already solved!
Unless you’re planning to drive your car around at about 150 miles per hour I don’t imagine that the aerodynamicism of door handles really comes into account. Especially since you’ve still got wing mirrors, wipers, and aerials on the car.
It comes into play much sooner than that when you’re designing for maximum range on an electric vehicle.
Source on that? Hobbiest aerodynamics nerd and big into F1 (and did a lot of liquid system design engineering in a previous job). Genuinely curious!
My gut feel is that a half kilo of unsprung weight (those ridiculous wheels), tighter fenders, or a bit of tail teardropping would go so much further than anything door-handle-wise. It’s certainly helping promote flow attachment, but you’ve got poor flow rates there because of the wing mirrors anywa
I’m talking out of my ass. I’m big into (mostly sim) racing myself, but I have no formal training or experience. You probably know way more about it than me!
If you’re a racing nerd then you know how strong the suckage can be. My car uses premium fuel and I get about 7L/100km on the highway. That adds up on long trips, so I try to save fuel when I can. I’ve tried drafting behind transport trucks. Even at only 90 kmph, I was able to get that number down to 5L/100km.
Electric vehicles have a lot of design features to cut down on aerodynamic and mechanical drag. Special hub caps, no grilles, low drag tires, etc. for the purpose of helping their main problem and selling point: the vehicle’s range on a single charge. I assumed the flush door handles were just another design feature for reducing aerodynamic drag, where every little bit counts.
Again, this is all out of my ass. I am well aware that aerodynamics are far far more complex than “smooth = better”, and that most cars are probably already designed so the door handles aren’t a problem. Maybe the door handles make no difference and having them flush is just optics for Tesla.
Ah cool! After i raced irl for like a decade I sim raced for a while. It was super fun! I’d like to get back into it someday. It’s a lot better on the wallet and body than IRL stuff (especially motorcycles).
I think it helps, but it probably is more of a selling point and aesthetic than an actual help on the (agreed) biggest selling point number.
It’s one of those decisions that someone up top probably made and has these kinds of stupid consequences of moving fast and breaking shit. I wouldn’t be upset if it had to go to a normal one
I’ve been into sim racing for nearly a decade. There’s never been a better time to get into it IMO.
Sim racing games and equipment have gotten significantly better and cheaper over the last 5 years. Hydraulic pedals and direct drive wheelbases did exist, but they were in the $2k-$4k price range. Now you can get high quality gear with that technology for under $500.
iRacing and Assetto Corsa are still the kings, but we are spoiled for choice when it comes to excellent sims.
If you are any kind of gearhead you’ll love it. There are even thriving sub-hobbies for things like bass shakers and motion platforms, which add back some of the seat feeling that you miss out on versus IRL.
Did you do motorcycle racing IRL? I’ve seen crazy motorcycle sim builds with motion, lean, etc., but I don’t think serious simulators exist yet. I’d love to see it.
As for Tesla, I don’t think we can know unless a Tesla engineer/aerodynamicist chimes in. There are other more serious examples of executive meddling in engineering, like the use of visual cameras instead of radar/lidar. Working for them must be a hair-pulling experience for their engineers.
Yeah, I actually frequented a sim center when I lived in the US. They ran Rfactor2 but it got me doing some iRacing too. It was great fun! I can’t believe how real a lot of it felt. Honestly except for elevation not translating well it was an insane practice tool
Yeah, only IRL for a bike. If they made a really legit sim rig I’d probably have to seriously consider it!
I saw a marketing blurb for the 2026 Nissan Leaf. They are also going with flush handles (hopefully a safer design) and claimed it for reduced drag to increase range. But, market, so could be just short of an outright lie.
Kudos for your humility, but you just said that you have no idea the magnitude.
I didn’t mean to discount your awareness of the margins of optimization. It’s quite a thing moving the needle in an established market (not to mention the money and years of R&D). But this ain’t it
Do you know the magnitude? If not, we’re both talking out of our asses. There must be some research or wind tunnel data out there about this, but I don’t have the numbers and I don’t know where to look.
I was thinking about my comment today and that I was being a grouchy meanie. Sorry!
No I don’t know the numbers, but yeah vehicle aero tests, even at full scale are very doable. CFDs probably sufficient too. You said you’re a formula fan iirc, so that’s probably something you hear about plenty.
I thought you were very polite and respectful, no worries.
I only know enough about aerodynamics to understand that I don’t actually know shit. I think most racing fans are in the same boat as me.
I’d love to learn more, and that’s really all that I was asking for.
I looked into this a long time ago, and it was likely they were getting around 2-3 miles of extra range from it.
I’d say it’s less important now than it was back then, when batteries weren’t as good and a mile or two anywhere was important.
that style is also a problem in the winter, though less so
they are prone to breaking as they age when the door is frozen shut and you gotta pull hard
Oh cool, we should start looking into shit that matters.
Being able to quickly get out of a burning car is important. If you only ever use the electronic door handle and your electrical system is damaged by…the fire, then you are much more likely to burn. The same problem exists on the outside of the car as rescuers have a harder time getting in to save people.
Getting stuck outside of the car in the winter is also pretty common when there is not a good place to grab when the door is covered in ice.
Car manufacturers have been making normal door handles for forever. Tesla ‘fixed’ something that wasn’t broken.
I was more talking shit on news organizations. Agreed, that should be no brainer legislation that already exists, similar to fire code in buildings.
Then just skip this post if it doesn’t interest you?
There are billions of us. We can do many things at once.
This may not matter as much as nuclear disarmament, but it matters to everyone that owns one of these cars.
Great. Next please: no more touch-controls. I want back haptic buttons for the most important stuff.
EDIT: Instead of silly downvotes, an opinion on why touchscreens/-buttons are superior would be preferable. I’m curious.
Touchscreens are infinitely reconfigurable. And the solution is cheaper. Some like the cleaner look when avoiding all the buttons and knobs.
Sure, for anything else than a car. But I don’t want to have to look at it while driving 250km/h, I want to feel if I have the right button and also pressed it. Pure safety.
Everywhere else I’d surely prefer a touchscreen over haptic buttons. I mean I have through this great tech-evolution, I love it. But it all has its place, and the car doesn’t seem like the right place for it. At least not for everything.
Fair. But most of these cars have voice controls that are even safer than using an array of buttons. I’ve never felt unsafe in my wife’s Tesla except when they once moved the defrost control early on. But that was when I started using the voice controls and never look back (haha - unintentional play on words there). My Kia won’t even let you use the touch screen to type in an address while it’s in drive - however it’s voice control for navigation is terrible. But it allows car play and Siri is plenty adequate for voice control with navigation.
Your delight ends where my safety begins. Taking your eyes off the road to operate your vehicle is a dangerous thing.
Ideally it would be a compromise of both.
If you look at like a mid-2000s Infiniti or Lexus there’s a button for fucking everything but many of them will be set once and then never touched again, or maybe used a couple times/year.
Things like moving the seat or drive modes or changing system settings. Those things can be safely tucked away in a menu.
Things like climate control, headlights, wipers and particularly media functions you might use constantly and should be physical.
You can also combine the 2. I’ve seen this on like the Hummer EV and BMWs. Mechanical buttons that do whatever is denoted on the screen above them, and change based on context.
Touchscreens are mandatory for backup cameras, might as well get some extra use out of them.
Who cares? You only have yourself to blame for buying a Tesla.
Dude, you act like you’ve never been burned by someone in your life. Instead of shaming people for purchasing something and getting burned, we should all be getting together and shaming the companies that are enshitified.
A) Yes, at this point we can blame the idiots buying Teslas too.
B) This sounds like it would only impact new sales
C) Nothing about Teslas are “enshittificarion”. It doesn’t mean “getting shittier”, or “are shitty”.
cries in memory of his old favorite pasta sauce now having water as the primary ingredient instead of tomato paste
Someone bought a Tesla.
I did, in 2020, and I liked everything except the range. Moved from that to a more invasive Chinese BYD, no regrets. My Han has electronic AND mechanical door handles.
2020 is way too late to not know who musk was.
Yep, I’ve been know to fuck up plenty, daily, for decades. That was one of way too many 😜
Will it? I’m skeptical of the translation since it’s obviously loose and casual, and more optimistic with the quote from Tesla saying they’re redesigning it …
I hate fucking “flush handles”. Good riddance to terrible garbage.
I find them cool. But if they become unusable in freezing weather or kill people because of an overcomplex emergency release from the inside?..
They’re like an idea a twelve year old Steve Jobs / Jony Ive wannabe would come up with.
At least they work as a quick visual cue that a car is designed with zero utilitarians in the room
I knew. A guy with a fully shaved mr2 (yes that means no door handles). Doors opened with a remote to operate the latch. He also had a cable run down under the side skirt, so if it failed you could manually pull the cable to get the door oprn. This was put together by a 24 year old in school, not some “genius”
I had a 1989 Ford Probe without a handle that stuck out like a typical car. It was recessed instead.
Better for fuel efficiency, which was also the intention of these stupid flush mount ones Tesla has been fawning over. But these were still manual door handles designed 40ish years ago…
<img alt="1st gen Ford Probe Door Handle" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/7131b775-6c3b-420f-b9c3-695f1d698bfb.png">
Is this because the door handle is some complicated electronic mechanism rather than a latch? Gee who could have possibly predicted that would be a problem.
My neighbour has a Tesla and last year I had great fun watching her trying to defrost her car enough to get the door handle to even come out.
I have had to put quite a bit of force into a car door to get it to open on many an occasion. (Ice is a bitch) A normal door handle just works, stop trying to fix it!
I hate the little flip up style handle on my car, known for its winter capability, which regularly freezes enough that you’re afraid it’ll break if you pull any harder
I have broken off one of the door handles on my car.
Yeah, but in those cases you actually can get a grip to pull on.
Unlike those hidden handles.
I think it’s mostly because of this: evseekers.com/why-do-tesla-windows-go-down-when-o… (Looks like AI slop but it does explain what I think it’s needed for)
Many modern car doors do not have a frame around the top of the window. So to not damage the window or seal in the door frame, they temporary lower it a bit using electricity. I’m sure Tesla would be incompetent enough to make it so there’s no decent way to do it without this feature.
If the door handle is frozen, the whole car is probably frozen.
“That’s harder than it sounds.”
Is it, though? Is it really? We’ve been making manual car door latches for 100 years.
It’s only hard for Musk, and only because he just doesn’t want to do it.
Seriously. Every other car maker has figured out how to make normal door handles. You can even buy the parts directly from them if you find it too hard to design yourself.
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Again, what did they miss? Spell it out for us, please!
The point is that the entire passenger entry system has been designed around electronic door handles. So you might think it’s as simple as just swapping them for mechanical ones but it’s not.
The handles are really just buttons. Requests to a computer.
The “locks” are just a binary state of the entry system that determines if conditions are satisfied to release the mechanical latch when the request is made.
We’ve had electronic door locks with manual override for… 3 decades now?
We’re not talking about door locks, but door latches and handles. There are no “locks” on Teslas. As I said “locked” is just a state in the computer.
“Lock” is a term for the mechanism that controls the latch and restricts operation. Whether the access mechanism is digital (key card, remote, etc) or physical (key, dial, etc) is irrelevant.
My point is it’s a solved problem. You can have a mixed physical and digital system. In fact, Teslas already have a mixed system as evidenced by the existence of a mechanical override. The issue is that the mechanical override is difficult to use and inaccessible from the outside.
If Tesla used something that already exists, we wouldn’t have this problem. It can still have the same interface (the button in the handle on both sides), just simplify the mechanical override and expose a way to access it from outside.
Again, there is no such mechanism.
It’s none of these things.
But they didn’t. So the problem exists.
Then how does the door stay closed? If I walk up to someone else’s Tesla, I can’t open it. Why? Because it’s locked. If the owner walks up, they can open it. Why? Because they have the key.
Yes, the lock works differently than many other cars, but there’s still a lock.
Here’s an article that talks about how the manual release works. It exists, it’s just annoying to access, and not something an average child (or possibly adult) can intuit.
The article is stating that the override should be easier to access and use.
You’re thinking of the door latch, not the door lock.
Again, there is no physical locking mechanism. That’s what’s different from any other cars in history.
The mechanical latch is on the interior of the vehicle, thus bypassing any “locking” methods. You can’t do the same on the exterior.
The lock is what prevents the latch from unlatching without some authentication mechanism present. Whether it’s a software lock or a physical lock is irrelevant.
And you can absolutely do the same on the exterior: add a physical lock that interacts with the latch. That’s basically how every other car works. Basically, there’s a motor to release the latch for electronic locks, and the key and handle intact with the latch directly. There’s no reason Tesla cars couldn’t satisfy that interaction. They could even have the handle pull charge a small microcontroller that scans the key card if they really don’t want a purely mechanical lock for some reason.
No, you can’t. Because, again, there is no method available to lock and unlock the door.
No it is not. If you want mechanical door handles, you also need mechanical door locks. A computer cannot unlock a mechanical door handle without a mechanical door lock mechanism. Adding a mechanical door lock means rethinking the entirety of the passenger entry system, as they currently function completely differently, as I’ve described above.
Again, that is not how this car works.
I think you’ve lost the topic of this conversation. The topic is not that it’s impossible. It’s that it’s “harder than it sounds”.
We are going round and round here and I keep repeating myself over and over but I’m clearly not getting through to you so I’m gonna call it a day.
But you haven’t described it. At least not in a way that proves that it would require a substantial change.
Here’s a video that talks about the manual latch release. Basically, each door has a cable that runs through the interior to manually release the door latch in case the battery fails or something. It bypasses the electronic-controlled locking system and goes straight to the latch.
I’m saying that adding a lock to the exterior wouldn’t require a massive design change, it just needs to interact with the existing cable mechanism (or add a separate cable) to release the latch.
That’s largely how other cars do it, except they have a physical lock there as well, which controls whether the exterior (or interior, depending on the child safety pin) handle connects to the latch. The difference w/ a Tesla is mostly that there is no physical lock, only an electronic lock, but the latch release system is similar enough that they could add it without massive changes to the rest of the door design. If they wanted to retrofit existing cars, they’d probably need to drill a hole to add the locking system, and then add a cable to the interior of the door. For future cars, they could change how the door handle is designed and probably leave the rest of the door design the same by adding some mechanical system and cable to the handle and nearby area of the door. I haven’t torn apart a Tesla door, but I highly doubt there’s anything special going on there (and I did see a teardown of a Cybertruck door and there was plenty of space to add mechanisms there).
The JUST SAID there already exists a manual override. Just make it accessible from the exterior. Problem solved. Shut the fuck up.
I’ve already explained why that’s not possible several times, you fucking moron.
tesla.com/…/GUID-A7A60DC7-E476-4A86-9C9C-10F4A276…
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/63f86ed8-7f16-418c-b759-ac6ce60a137d.jpeg">
Explain again how the physical manual release that is explained in the Model 3 manual “isn’t possible.”
Cry me a river.
harder than it sounds… yeah the technology isn’t there yet! we need research and scientific breakthrough to invent a door handle that you can actually handle. no one’s even thought of the concept before.
.
i very much did, actually. it’s just the bullshit recycled from the seatbelt mandate, except this is about something cars already had a century ago.
Do go on
You’ve posted this in multiple places without explaining yourself, and your subsequent follow-ups have also just been questioning the person’s credentials and offering nothing of your own. You’re a classic example of the bullshit asymmetry principle, flooding the thread with low effort trolling.
I can’t wait for elon musk to invent the door handle. I hope it’s another display
I’m calling corpo lobbied bullshit. 2 years is enough time to put a normal door handle on your car.
Cars are designed up to 5 years in advance. Usually the last 2 years before production is dedicated to endurance testing.
Tesla doesn’t do any of that, nor crash testing
A quick search says they do crash testing, is this bullshit?
Of course they do crash testing, you can go watch videos of it if you want. That’s just a bot, or someone who knows fuck all. Their cars are always top ranked in crash saftey.
Won’t catch me dead driving a tesla but obviously they test safety in order to pass regulations lol
I mean… if they didn’t test their cars, they really must have the best engineers in the world, being able to go from just engineering plans to getting a 5 star saftey rating at all the agencies. Those engineers would be worth their weight in gold lol.
Top ranked for the people inside the cars. Not so safe for the people mining the material to replace cars that get totaled, etc. but most people don’t give enough of a fuck to count anyone but the occupants of the car
You mean like that cybertruck shit made of rusting “stainless” steel, with no crumple zone and a body that reflects the sun in other drivers eyes?
Yeah, doubt it. They aren’t even legal in Europe because of safety.
Who told you that? Elmo?
Lol dude, the cybertruck is a 5 star rated vehicle.
www.nhtsa.gov/…/AWD%252520Later%252520Release#det…
It’s the one of the safest trucks for occupants in crashes ever built.
Edit: Just to add, that they also keep updating based on results from saftey agencies. The CT initially scored a 5 for driver and 4 for front passenger, but it has been updated to now to be 5/5.
Yeah but fuck the victims this 7000lb tank crashes into right?
Cybertruck does not meet EU minimal safety standards. NHTSA is a joke.
Does not meet minimum pedestrian saftey features yes.
OP that started this was trying to say they don’t even crash test their vehicles.
They’re not being expected to design a whole new car from scratch though, are they.
So how do they deal with routine and unexpected defects that every manufacturer deals with for every model?
Fix them after 5 years of course! /s
Well, it was found that water pools in the chassis of the Cybertruck, corroding it. They dealt with this by telling consumers not to get it wet and make taking it through a carwash void the warrantee.
They don’t have to redesign an entire car, just the internal parts of a door that are related to a handle, that in the past they made work mechanically btw, so no, 2 years is more than enough to redesign and start implementing it
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Redesigning the handle by 2027 is stupid easy. I have an masters in mechanical engineering, this could be done with mostly off the shelf parts. Tesla is being a bitch like normal.
Your skill doesn’t translate into supply chain management, testing timelines, manufacturing setups, all that. Dad was a civil engineer. Didn’t mean he could run a road laying company.
Shit. Forgot where I was. My post is sucking Elon’s dick and excusing Tesla for fuck ups.
FFS, the issues I’m citing are in the article and they’re not quotes from Tesla. Lay off the fucking witch hunt.
I work in supply chain and manufacturing now lol. Tesla is a major fuck up of a company.
I worked with some of their engineers after they left and they aren’t very bright.
Well fuck it, I guess I’m ready to take the next step in my radicalization.
The best wording I can think of is late stage capitalism. Someone should be eating their lunch
so in your mind, what happens when a recall occurs and some defective part is replaced with another part? do you think they run these replacements through all your supply chain management testing setups all that huh?
or they don’t replace the defects?
?
no, this happens all the time. it allows manufacturers to respond to systems that didn’t age well, or didn’t stand up to public users, or children, or was unsafe in a way that didn’t present itself during testing. these things happen. manufacturers make adjustments, replace parts, change software, and put it back out on the road.
Idk, “off the shelf parts” seemed pretty clear
No dude, your post acts like this couldn’t be anticipated, never mind reported on for years.
Seriously, how many models did Tesla need to figure this out for? They didn’t have a plan 2 years ago?
Unironically yes, you’re all over this story flooding the zone with shit to try discrediting the whole thing, despite having nothing of substance to offer beyond asserting that nobody knows anything except for you and Elon.
The problem is not the handle, it’s the fact the mechanism only works with 12V DC power.
I read the article, and I’m calling bullshit on the excuses they’re putting up. The fact that they usually prefer a five year cycle, does not mean that it’s difficult to change the handles on the doors in two years if you need to.
they got lazy, they fully adopted the electronic one, and dint want to “waste money” bringing back the old one, in thier recent and future models.
Wtf is “willingness to work from design-first principles”? Do Wired realize that the form of the handle follows the function of designing for better aerodynamics?
Pretty sure they’re using “design” to mean “aesthetics” in that sentence. I do think we need to less often use “design” to refer specifically to aesthetics or graphic design; every object and system that humans have made are designed.
I read the article. It sounds like the auto makers concern is that they don’t think they have been given enough time to solve the problem (the problem being one which may kill people while we wait for a solution).
I think we should give them all the time they want, as long as they stop selling cars without safe door handles RIGHT NOW.
“We meed more time even though door handles are a solved problem.”
Your comment is giga based because it doesn’t let the overton window get shifted by being too suggestible.
Your brain still went where logic goes, not where was suggested. So important at times like this.
All in all, quality
Whatever. Luxury e-cars are the new Bimmers.
They wish. My 30 year old $2500 bmw e36 was nicer inside than the last model 3 I had the misfortune of sitting in, and was the most reliable car I’ve owned. Straight 6 And 5 speed, beaten and slid daily until I sold it with 200k miles. My biggest problem with that car was keeping back tires on it. Man some days I wish I never sold that car… Moved north and a slammed 2wd car isn’t gonna get me to work over the mountain pass in the winter. Now I drive a POS 2012 Subaru with fried oil control rings. If the bimmer had a LSD I probably would still be driving it 🤬
Like zim zimma? That kind of bimma?
Nah, BMWs were actually pretty great, for a time. Well put-together, fairly reliable, engaging to drive, very comfortable, pleasantly designed.
I daily drive a 2003 E39 5 series with 260,000 miles on the clock. Mechanically it’s great.
I did have to sort some rust out a while back, but that’s par for the course in the UK. Salted roads, never far from the sea, constantly damp roads spraying all that salty road grime under the car. For the love of god people, rust protect your cars.
I’ve been telling people to look for a shop that can do a wax film coat when they do the oil change. Super simple job when the car is already on the lift.
I’m saying so rather sarcastically because where I live, e-cars, especially BYDs and Teeeeezlus, are becoming status symbols for people with fuck-you money.
Big government is oppressing small businesses again! Thanks Obama!
The problem is this bullshit was allowed on the road in the first place.
I love that this happens after little bitch Elon does Trumps bidding. Almost like that’s literally never worked out well for anyone.
Elon is still helping Trump and pushing Nazis in Europe. He just had a fake fight and less in public eye to help his stock.
A regulation in China isn’t going to change that.