Teen deepfake victim pushes for federal law targeting AI-generated explicit content
(www.nbcnews.com)
from stopthatgirl7@kbin.social to technology@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 10:53
https://kbin.social/m/technology@lemmy.world/t/769981
from stopthatgirl7@kbin.social to technology@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 10:53
https://kbin.social/m/technology@lemmy.world/t/769981
Rep. Joe Morelle, D.-N.Y., appeared with a New Jersey high school victim of nonconsensual sexually explicit deepfakes to discuss a bill stalled in the House.
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
A teenage victim of nonconsensual sexually explicit deepfakes joined Rep. Joe Morelle, D-N.Y., on Tuesday to advocate for a bipartisan bill that would criminalize sharing such material at the federal level.
In addition to criminalizing the nonconsensual sharing of sexually explicit deepfakes, the measure would also create a right of private action for victims to be able to sue creators and distributors of the material while remaining anonymous.
Mani said her school administration told her on Oct. 20 that male classmates had created and shared sexually explicit deepfakes of her and more than 30 other girls.
After he heard about what happened at Mani’s high school, which is in his hometown, Rep. Tom Kean, R.-N.J., became the first Republican co-sponsor of Morelle’s bill.
The lack of legislative movement around deepfakes has raised concerns about the technology’s potential to disrupt the 2024 election cycle.
A legal expert who specializes in nonconsensual intimate imagery, Mary Anne Franks, who Morelle said helped inform the bill, said deepfakes have already targeted female politicians.
The original article contains 457 words, the summary contains 169 words. Saved 63%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I really wonder whether this is the right move.
This girl, and many others, are victims and I don’t want to diminish that, but I for better or worse I just don’t see how legislation can resolve this.
Surely deepfakes will be just different enough to the subject to create reasonable doubt that it depicts the subject.
I wonder whether, as deep fakes become commonplace, people might be more willing to just ignore it like any other form of trolling.
I hope it won’t overregulate technology itself but instead would be ruled by already existing means about defaming people and taking photoes without their consent, sharing them. Plus, if she’s a teen, it’s a production of CSAM. This person had an illegal intent, just used a new tool not unlike others, just more efficient.
I think it doesn't go far enough. Straight up, no one should be permitted to create or transmit the likeness of anyone [prior to, say, 20 years following their death] without their explicit, written permission. Make the fine $1,000,000 or 10% of the offender's net worth, whichever is greater; same penalty and corporate revocation for any corporation involved. Everyone involved from the prompt writer to the work-for-hire people should be liable for the full penalty. I can't think of a valid, non-entertainment (parody/humor), reason for non-consensual impersonation - and using it for humor or parody is a slippery slope to propaganda weaponization. There is no baby in this tub of bathwater.
I’m not sure this is practically possible.
A $1m penalty is more or less instant bankruptcy for 99% of the population. It’s probably not much of a deterrent for, say an 18 year old. In my jurisdiction I don’t think there are criminal penalties higher than a few thousand dollaridoos. It doesn’t matter whether you think this act is so aggregious that it deserves a penalty 1000 time higher than any other, my point is that it would be unenforceable ineffective.
Secondly, how do you determine whether an image is someone’s likeness? Create any random image and surely it will look like someone, but that doesn’t mean that creating that image violates that someone.
The missing factor is intent. Make a random image, that’s that. But if proven that the accused made efforts to recreate a victim’s likeness that shows intent. Any explicit work by the accused with the likeness would be used to prove the charges.
Yeah, just like the FBI warnings on VHS tapes about massive fines and jail time stopped us from copying them in the 80s and 90s...
I dig the sentiment. I do. And If this were my own fantasy world, I’d agree. But unfortunately, we don’t live in the timeline where that is considered even close to reasonable.
Correction: Fortunately, not unfortunately. A rule like that would prohibit any form of public / street photography, news videos, surveillance videos, family photos with random strangers in the background… it’s not reasonable at all.
I think you're right if the goal is to stop them all together.
But what we can do is stop people from sending them around and saying that it's true/actually the person.
Once they've turned it from a art project into a weapon, it should have similar consequences to "revenge porn."
I would think this would be covered by libel, slander, defamation type laws. The crime is basically lying about a persons actions and character.
I don’t know how strong the laws are on the topic but I feel this falls under harassment or libel. In most cases this will cause emotional distress and harm to a person’s reputation. If you’re trying to show off your AI skills you can use a subject that isn’t real or depict a real person wearing clothes. This is clearly an attack in my mind.
Photos of a person can vary in subtle ways too, perhaps as a person ages or even just changes their makeup or something. It’s not valid to require everything to be perfectly clear-cut in some objective way.
Life is subjective, which is why courts always try to take the mental state of the accused into account, things like whether malice was present, whether the accused was in a rational state of mind, etc. This is why we have first and second degree murder as two different things.
It’s not trolling it’s bullying. You need to think beyond this being about “porn”. This is a reputational attack that makes the victim more likely to be further victimised via date rape, stalking, murder. These things already happen based on rumours, deepfakes images/videos will only make it worse. The other problem is that it’s almost impossible to erase once it’s on the internet, so the victim will likely never be free of the trauma or danger as the images/videos resurface.
Trolling / bullying is just semantics, which I don’t think will help us very much.
I think the heightened risk of other crimes is… dubious. Is that conjecture?
Your position seems to be framed in the reality of several years ago, where if you saw a compromising video of someone it was likely real, while in 2024 the opposite is true.
Were headed towards a reality where someone can say “assistant, show me a deepfake of a fictitious person who looks a bit like that waitress at the Cafe getting double teamed by two black guys”. I don’t claim to know all the ethical considerations, but I do think that changing social norms are part of the picture.
I don’t have any authority to assert when anyone else should feel victimised. All I know is that in my own personal case, a few years ago I would’ve felt absolutely humiliated if someone saw a compromising video of me, but with the advent of deep fakes I just wouldn’t care very much. If someone claimed to have seen it I would ask them why they were watching it, and why in the world they would want to tell me about their proclivities.
That’s a major assumption. Do people really think a school board will really consider that when a student creates a fake Only Fans of a teacher? A random University or Company doesn’t even give reason for denying an application when they see any form of online nudity? People are lazy as fuck and will just move on to the next candidate or let someone go to save their own image rather than that off the victim.
My point is, when it becomes as easy to generate deepfakes as it is to order your groceries, the question will become “why is the university searching for deepfakes of everyone”
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Lol your wife has seemingly zero ability to critically think of a position other than her own, in the context of a discussion.
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Cool, but my comment isn’t incorrect based on your literal words.
You pitched an argument you read online, for discussion.
She questioned your integrity, as if you held that position as your own.
She clearly lacks the ability to consider your voicing a third party, hypothetical point, as a separate actor. This is indicated by your words regarding her vehement revulsion and need for you to assert out loud that YOU don’t hold that position.
Also not sure where you got the evidence I’m unfamiliar with either that author, or the word “permutation” as this thread discusses neither.
How dare you claim his wife isn’t the sweetest, smartest person in the world. You MUST be wrong!
My dude there are people out there thinking they're in a relationship with Johnny fucking Depp because some Nigerian scammer sent them five badly photoshopped pictures. Step out of your bubble, maybe. This shit isn't easy to spot for the vaaaaaast majority of people and why would this lie with the victim to sort of clear their name or hope that idiots realize it's fake?
Especially with and around teenagers who can barely think further than their next meal?
Good lord.
WDYM “step out of your bubble”?
It’s not a question of being able to detect whether or not a video is fake. When deepfakes become so prevalent that everyone’s grandma understands that they’re prevalent, it won’t matter whether you can identify the video as fake.
This is just the tip of the iceberg of the threat AI poses to human social structures. We have yet to appreciate the gravity of what these new technologies enable. It’s incredibly dangerous yet equally naive to think that AI-generated porn laws will keep us safe.
Firstly, the cat’s out of the bag. We can ban the technology or its misuse all we like, but can we really practically stop people from computing mathematical functions? Legal or not, generative AI can and will be used to generate content that hurts people. We need better planning for identifying, authenticating, and responding when this misuse happens.
Secondly, we have an already huge, huge problem with fake news and disinformation. What is such a law for this special case of AI porn going to do for our inability to address harmful content?
It’s a shame, but it strikes me as more feel-good than actually doing something effective.
Just ban any instance of generative unconsentual generative nudity, AI or not.
I just drew a stick figure of Johnny Depp and it’s indeed naked. And I’d do it again, too.
People said the same thing when, after the printing press, there was rampant plagiarism and reverse-plagiarism (attributing words to someone who never said them).
After a period of epistemic chaos, the result was several decades of chartered monopoly and government censorship to get it under control.
I hope we won’t need heavy-handed regulation this time around. But that will only happen if we learn from history. We need to get this under control now, while we have the chance to start a framework for protecting our fellow human beings from harm. Complaining that it’s hard is not an excuse for doing nothing.
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A challenge is that generally the same technology to detect ai content can be used to improve it. It’s gonna be an arms race
More laws that will only affect people who follow laws
It’s like how DRM only hurts people who purchase content legally.
It’s been very illegal to pirate games for decades, and still pirated content is quite common in the wild. What’s banning it (defamation) harder going to practically achieve?
Literally nothing, but morons will pretend otherwise in order to waste money and time because they can’t think of any other way to engage the problem.
I mean, they do usually effect the people that break them and go to prison too.
You mean the poor and disadvantaged?
When working properly, everyone equally. I will admit we do not nearly reach that standard, though.
The ideal is there but how do you imprison organizations that have more money, connections then some nations.
The moment big money gets involved governments stop upholding even themselves to the law. I work at a subdivision under some part of government and the amount of unpaid court ordered fines for human right violations is massive and increasing. The fines can’t be paid cause there is no money. The problem causing the right violations can’t be fixed cause there’s no money. Yet government swims in money.
I think getting money out of politics will be a necessary first step towards addressing this.
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Ah yes, the poor and disadvantaged who can afford a computer and an ai program and who make ai csam.
Isn’t that… all laws?
How? How will this only effect people who follow laws? If you aren’t making ai porn of real underage girls how would this affect you, a law abiding citizen?
Might as well not make any laws then.
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How different is photoshopped fakes from AI fakes? Are we going to try to bad that too?
ETA: *ban that too. Thx phone kb.
What does the method matter? If the result is an artifact that is convincing enough for the average person to believe that the subject knowingly posed for sex acts that never occurred, the personal experience and social stigma is traumatizing no matter how it was made.
That's my point. If we're going to ban AI fakes should we then ban ALL fakes? Where do we draw the line and how do we do that without limiting free speech? I'm not sure it is possible.
And the days of believing everything you see are over but most don't know it yet.
It’s ever-changing. We’re social animals, not math equations, so it’s all according to the kind of society we want.
All freedoms are in tension between “freedom to” and “freedom from”. I can have the freedom to fire my gun in the air. I can have the freedom from my neighbor’s randomly-falling bullets. I can’t have both of those codified in law (unless I’m granted some special status over my neighbors).
I think that, many times, what we run into is a mismatch between a group thinking in terms of “freedom to” and a group thinking in terms of “freedom from”.
The “freedom to” folks feel like any restriction on their ability to act is a breach of liberty, because they aren’t worried about “freedom from”. If, for example, I live in the middle of nowhere and have no neighbors, what falling bullets do I have to fear except my own?
The “freedom from” folks feel like having to endure the effects of others’ actions is a breach of liberty, because they aren’t worried about “freedom to”. If I spend my life dodging falling bullets, I’m not likely to fire more into the sky.
We said the same thing about the printing press. And it plunged us into a long period of epistemic chaos, with rampant plagiarism and reverse-plagiarism (attributing words to someone who never spoke them). The fallout of this led the crown to seize presses and allocate exclusive printing rights to a chartered monopoly (with some censorship just for funsies).
We can either complain it’s too hard and do nothing, eventually leading to an overreaction to a policy that is obviously not sustainable… Or we can learn from history, get our heads in the game, and start imagining a framework that embraces the transformative power of large-scale computing while respecting the humanity of our comrades.
C2PA is a good start, but it’s probably DOA in the hacker zeitgeist. We tend to view even an opt-in standard for proof of authenticity as a gateway to universal requirements for proof of authenticity and a locked-down tyrannical internet forever and ever. Possibly because a substantial portion of us are terminally online selfish assholes who never have to spend a second worrying about deepfakes of ourselves. And also fancy ourselves utilitarian techno-solutionists willing to sacrifice the squishy unquantifiable touchy-feely human emotions that just get in the way of objective rational progress towards a transhuman future. It’s a noble sacrifice, we say, while profiting disproportionately and suffering none of the fallout.
You’re restricting speech whether or not you confine your censorship to only AI-generated images.
If (as it seems) the point is not impersonation but damage to the person's honor/image, where exactly is the line?
If realism is the determining factor, what about a hyperrealistic human work? And if it is under human interpretation how realistic it should be, could a sketch be included?
Good question. The bill doesn’t define realistic. There’s no condition that it should fool anyone.
This definitely goes beyond AI and includes photoshops, 3d renders and any other digital art. I think it would also include hand drawn images, once they are digitized, EG by photographing them on a phone. Always provided that the depictions are in some way “realistic”.
A sketch would probably not convince anyone that the subject consensually participated in sex acts that never occurred.
I would have thought that deepfakes are defamation per se. The push to criminalize this is quite the break with American first amendment traditions.
If I understand correctly, this would put any image hoster, including Lemmy, in hot water because 230 immunity is only for civil suits and not federal criminal prosecution.
It’s not, people know it’s a deepfake most of the time and don’t claim it’s real
It might also be harassment.
If it’s not defamation or harassment, then I’m not sure what the problem is. As broad as this is, it looks unconstitutional to me.
the text of the bill exempts service providers from any liabilities as long as they make a good faith attempt to remove it as soon as they are aware of its existence. So if someone makes AI generated revenge porn on your instance as long as you take it down when notified, you want be in trouble.
Which part says that?
So the law requires intent and carves out exceptions for service providers that try to remove it.
You can read the whole text here
The lower part just says that overeager removal of depictions does not create liability. Say, onlyfans bans the account of a creator because some face recognition AI thought their porn depicted a celebrity. They have no recourse for lost income.
As to the upper part, I am not sure what “reckless disregard” means in this context. I don’t think it means that you only have to act if you happen to receive a complaint. If you see nudes of some non-porn celebrity, then it’s mostly likely a fake. It seems reckless not to remove it immediately. What if there are not enough mods to look at each image. Is it reckless to keep operating?
I appreciate your reading into the text. I am not a lawyer so it isn’t always clear how to read the legal language crafted into these bills. Since the quoted part of the law is under the criminal penalty section of the bill, I read it as releasing the service provider from criminal liability if they try to stop the distribution of it. I see your point as how you read it and that makes sense to me
Yes, expressions can have meanings that are unclear to non-experts, like reckless disregard. It means specific things in the context of specific laws and I can’t guess how it should be interpreted here.
I took some words out to improve readability.
I believe the second one is for, EG, someone making a database of banned material, so that it can be filtered automatically on upload. Or if someone uses those images to train an AI to recognize fakes. For that purpose it will be necessary to “disclose” (IE distribute) the images to the people working on it; perhaps an outside company.
There are already laws against creating false content about people, so adding more laws isn’t going to make the previous laws more or less valid and it’s only going to waste time and money.
Of course it’s being pushed by a “teen” since this teen clearly doesn’t have any understanding of the issues at hand, the technology at hand nor the laws that already exist to help them with this issue.
It was up to the adults around this teen to help her navigate the issue and instead the incompetent pieces of worthless shit choose to push a new bill against AI rather than use the current legal framework that exists to actually help this girl.
Anything to abuse a child or teens situation for their political gain. Worthless trash.
It’s being pushed by someone who was a victim of deep fake ai porn, so I think they understand the issues at hand just fine, you don’t have to agree with her, but don’t be a patronizing asshole about it.
Thanks for not actually reading my comment and making it clear to everyone who did that you’re either illiterate or a dishonest asshole.
I read your comment just fine, and the way you spoke about the teen in question was incredibly patronizing.
Then you should work on your reading comprehension.
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Disagreeing strongly isn’t patronizing.
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This is an actual law proceeding, with lawyers and adults involved. The teen is just the face of it.
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Actually quotes denote quotations. When used casually around an individual word or short phrase they generally indicate that the writer is emphasizing that these are someone else’s words, and that the writer would have chosen a different description. As in: These people are described as “teens” but are probably not only/mostly teenagers. That may not be what you meant, but it’s how that text will be read.
If you just want emphasis you might consider using bold or italics rather than quotes.
If the laws on the books aren’t being enforced by the local executive branch because they don’t understand the technology or terminology and see where it applies the re-writing the law so its more clear what the crime was and how the law can be enforced is absolutely an option.
The article states that there is no federal law governing the use and abuse of non-consensual deepfakes. The proposed bill also offers additional protections for victims. Putting that on the books isn’t a waste time or money. If the patchwork of local laws were working then this young woman wouldn’t be asking her congressperson of change.
So I respectfully disagree with your take that it is political grandstanding and unnecessary.
Just wait until them tech savvy folks in Congress try to understand the difference between ‘deepfakes’ in the sense of pasting a new face on existing footage and whole cloth generative AI creating the entire scene, and then someone tells them that the latter is derived from multiple existing media sources. Gonna be some smoke pouring out of their ears like in the cartoons trying to slice up all the specifics.
Just tell them the 2nd amendment guaranteed your rights to Gaussian Splatting.
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Victim is underage. Why don’t you take a seat over there?
Would it help if I wrote /s like some ledditor m’sir?
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🤮 bruh she’s 14
She’s 18 somewhere am I right chat
No. You are not funny in the slightest.
It would be weird and creepy if this was an adult woman, but your “joke” about a situation involving children is just disgusting. You’re sick, please seek help
“I’m sure you are fun at parties” - Le heckin funnerino
At least I’m going to parties with people my own age and not creeping on literal high schoolers.
Jesus fuck dude stop acting like a pedophile
<img alt="" src="https://imgs.search.brave.com/pmVkqv4AcO3m-2oMjCIqIa8CTFUjLN03NPW_JDiDLHc/rs:fit:860:0:0/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly9zeW1i/bC13b3JsZC5ha2Ft/YWl6ZWQubmV0L2kv/d2VicC82Mi9hYTNl/YWU4ODIyNGQ1NWFh/MDVhZGRjNDQ4MmE2/ZWYud2VicA">
Excuse me but, the fuck is wrong with you?
I’m just living my best life
Think of the children being used to push an agenda that helps the very wealthy? Well I’ll be, what a totally new and not at all predictable move.
Ban all ai that aren’t owned by rich people, make open source impossible, restrict everything that might allow regular people to compete with the corporations - only then will you children be safe!
You kind of have to be rich in order to run these image generation AIs. The RTX 4090 TI isn’t cheap.
The NVIDIA 1660 ti is perfectly adequate and not only the property of rich people.
Any iPhone or iPad on the current version of iOS can run Stable Diffusion locally with the (free) Draw Things app.
Hell, if you’re willing to run on the CPU instead of the graphics card (which takes much longer) you can get Stable Diffusion working on pretty much any PC. And honestly any semi-recent nVidia card will have drivers to run it.
What’s more, there are free sites for SD image generation.
Image generation isn’t expensive, and it gets cheaper and cheaper every year.
I’m as suspicious of “think of the children” stuff as anyone here but I don’t see how we are fighting for the rights of the people by defending non-consensual deepfake porn impersonation, of children or anyone.
If someone makes deepfake porn of my little cousin or Emma Watson, there’s no scenario where this isn’t a shitty thing to do to a person, and I don’t see how the masses are being oppressed by this being banned. What, do we need to deepfake Joe Biden getting it on to protest against the government?
Not only the harassment of being subjected to something like this seems horrible, it’s reasonable to say that people ought to have rights over their own likeness, no? It’s not even a matter of journalistic interest because it’s something completely made-up.
Mr. Vulpine, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this chat room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Any reason why you are quoting Adam Sandler movies at me?
Because if you have any criticism you could at least be specific and original.
Ahhhh, fine. It’s reasonable to say that people ought to have rights over their own likeness? So if you’re walking down the street and someone’s recording you, what? You melt down over your likeness? Hide in your house for fear that someone will take a picture of you?
Don’t you know? People already do have rights over their likeness and we already have laws regarding that. To some extent you are allowed to record public locations and events, and you don’t need to seek permission to every passerby. But it doesn’t mean you can record people and use their images in every location and situation.
Not to mention, we are talking about deepfakes made to look like specific people. I don’t think you are going to accidentally pass by someone’s deepfake porn while taking selfies on the streets, so there’s not much point of bringing this up.
So someone is gonna tell you when they use your picture/ video for their personal use?? Lol bro
Which is why the proposed bill targets distributors.
You talk about it as if you never seen laws that apply to the internet before.
The issue is there really is no way to stop it unless you make ai illegal. The cat is already out of the bag. The models and hardware are getting better and faster and cheaper.
How do you suppose you enforce a law like this when people stop even sharing the photos they create, maybe don’t even save them themselves, because it’s so easy and instant to create more when you want to see them. “Put her face on her body in this position”, bam, instant album of photos to jerk off to, then delete them. That’s how good and how available these models are getting.
How do you think restrictions on this should, or could, be enforced?
Nah, making deepfake porn illegal doesn’t require making all of AI illegal. As proposed this law would neither apply to candid photography generation nor to entirely imaginary AI porn. As proposed it’s targetting those generating and distributing such images rather than the technology itself, and giving victims means to defend themselves against being publicly humilliated.
It could be handled much like any matter of copyright is, that anyone hosting and sharing it must take it down or face the punishment.
Technology allows many things to be done quickly and easily, but whether they are legal and protected is a whole different matter. The models can be as good as they want, as quick as copying a file, it doesn’t mean that people won’t be sued over it.
It seems a bit questionable to assume that everything that is technologically possible ought to be permitted, no matter who is harmed. And frankly this is much more harmful than any piracy or infringement.
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When it’s widely available, you could share a perfectly legal photo, along with the prompt. Then everyone who runs it would see similar generated images on their own devices, without distributing anything illegal.
I’m trying to point out how futile it is to fight this, and that any attempt to actually stop it will eventually lead to limits on the AI models themselves.
(Sorry didn’t mean to reply twice, Lemmy things)
Welp, you deleted the one I had replied to and cut off my response. I had replied this:
Deepfakes don’t happen by accident. It’s also not “perfectly legal” to distribute and alter a photo you have no permission to use.
Your argument essentially seems to be that because people will try to find ways around it, no law should be created and no action should be taken to prevent it, is this right? Because this could be said of pretty much any law and it isn’t a particularly compelling argument. Part of enforcing the law is getting around the tricky ways people try to disguise their actions.
Nevermind that this proposed law is supposed to protect the victims who are harassed because of it. If it was so invisible, they wouldn’t be suffering.
If this will eventually lead to AI models getting limitations to prevent people from using them for deepfake porn… Good? Who loses beyond the people trying to make deepfake porn
There isn’t ways to limit certain models without limiting all AI tech, which is what the first comment above from another user was saying. That corporations want to be the only ones using it by keeping it out of the hands of regular people, and this plays into that.
Something this powerful should absolutely be democratized, we should all have our own open source models, and unfortunately that means those smart glasses the guy on the bus is wearing could be undressing everyone in real time.
There’s nothing to be done about it, and trying to do something is worse. It’s like the war on drugs. Folks who want to do it are gonna do it. Fighting it is only going to make the world worse. Unfortunately there are victims here, but societally I think we’re just going to have to get over it.
Other than vague slippery slope fearmongering I don’t see how banning the creation and distribution of deepfake porn is going to make AI monopolized by corporations. If have your own personally trained and run AI model, you have complete control of what sort of content it’s generating. Why would you have issues with deepfake porn laws if you are not generating and hosting that content?
It just doesn’t add up, there’s some logical leap here that seems almost on the level of conspiracy theories. As much as governments do tend to favor corporations over regular people there is nothing so far even vaguely suggesting that AI would be so profoundly restricted that only corporations could use it. In fact, what has been described of what is proposed so far does not target the technology at all, only the users who engage in this kind of bad conduct.
But I profoundly disagree with this “nothing to be done about it”. How would fighting it be worse than letting people suffer for it? It’s not like drugs where the main person who might have issues is the user themselves, this affects unrelated vulnerable people.
If it is identified who is making deepfake porn and where it’s being hosted, it can be taken down. You could argue that not every single responsible person will be identified, but it might still be enough to diminish the prevalence and number of victims. And to the point that the remaining ones will have to be sneaky about it, that still might lead to less harassment to the victims.
You compare it to the war on drugs. Meanwhile I think of the rise of the automobile, with people crying that seat belts and traffic lights were ruining their freedom and “there’s nothing to be done” about people dying in car crashes.
If everyone could create their own, and just run it locally, explain how the laws could be enforced?
Aguing that since you do a crime with a tool, outlawing the crime outlaws the tool is a bad argument. Outlawing murder doesn’t outlaw knives.
As far as enforcement, it may be enforced with varying degrees of success but the argument that someone may get away with the crime also isn’t a reason not to make it a crime.
If someone created deep fakes using locally run models, rubbed one out and then deleted everything they probably wouldn’t be caught…but largely who cares that they didn’t? It’s the harm to others that it causes that you would largely like to prevent, and if a person didn’t distribute the image at all them “getting away with it” doesn’t matter much.
Edit: I think the argument that existing laws already cover this is more compelling than any of the above arguments as far as why this new law shouldn’t be passed.
You conceded that no one cares if someone makes images locally then deletes them. But that’s how they’re all going to be made shortly.
Currently folks are sharing them because not everyone has the means to create them, some folks do, and share what they’ve made.
Once litterally every can just make them the moment they want to, no one will be sharing. Everyone will fall under that use case that you admitted no one would care about, which is exactly what I’ve been saying. It’s 1. futile to try to stop, and 2. going to become so wide spread that we as a society will stop caring about it.
I do not think this is true. There are reasons to generate and distribute these other than to have a personal wank off gallery.
Like what? Why share something when anyone curious to see it can instantly generate their own?
I’m curious as to why you cannot come up with any yourself, but here are a few from the top of my head: to pass them off as authentic (likely for clout purposes), to have a laugh with the boys about it, to collaborate with others on them, and to distribute them to harass, ridicule, or disparage the target of them.
Degenerates exist in lots of shapes and forms, and not all degenerates will have enough of a sense of shame to be degenerates privately or to even know they are being degenerates at all.
I don’t think you’re properly understanding the paradigm shift that’s coming with these models being open source and widely available while wearable AR smart glasses get better.
“You know Sharon is HR, look at this scandalous photo of her.”
“Uh, I’m seeing a live generated porno of everyone in this room right now, why would I care about that.”
And I don’t think you’re fully understanding that the above is some type of fantasy you have, and will not actually be what the future is like at all.
It’s probably a bit of an exaggeration, but my point stands. It’s going to be so easy for anyone to see ai gen material of anyone else, no one is going to care anymore.
I don’t even think that’s necessarily true. If you make it illegal and/or platforms ban it, you’re already taking a step toward making it more difficult to do.
I think throughout this thread you’re mistaking the technically possible for the probable or likely.
By making it illegal, you essentially eliminate the commercial incentive for making it easy. Every barrier to doing something makes it more unlikely that people will do it. I understand that there is an inherent motive for people to do it anyway, but, every hoop they have to jump through (e.g. setting up their “own, local AI”) reduces the likelihood of them doing it.
People don’t even run their own email servers, music servers, video servers, etc. etc. etc…most people don’t even “jail break” devices…many don’t even store a local cache of regular porn…why the hell would most people bother themselves with setting up a local generative AI instance for this purpose?
Outlawing it and banning it from platforms makes it much more within the realm of the creepy basement weirdo rather than something that is as inevitably ubiquitous as you’re saying it will be.
Policy is very often about reduction of harms rather than elimination of harms. It’s not the black and white realm that you’re trying to make it out to be.
It’s not illegal to to work on, sell, or distribute the models. And making that illegal is what the first commenter said would be dangerous to do, since then regular people wouldn’t be able to compete with corporation’s abilities.
Once the models and portable hardware are good enough, and it’s just a matter of time, I think you’re underestimating how ubiquitous it will become.
Every teenage boy will have a pair of nudie glasses in the form of their smartphone running open source models, and you think they’re just going to not use them?
I think you again vastly overestimate how many people are going to run their own AI versus using a sanitized, policy-driven, managed platform version that’s cloud based (e.g. Dall-E and ChatGPT right now).
It’s possible today (and usually better) to do a lot of things locally, but yet still almost everything routes through an app to a platform on your smartphone and the few remaining things that don’t route through a platform using your phone’s browser.
When it becomes one click to see the chick across from you naked, tell me how many 16 year old boys won’t. You are far too naive to be having this conversation.
It’s not naive to think that corporations will continue to win the “AI” war. It’s actually pretty naive to think otherwise.
I also dunno why you think that all of the resources in oss AI will focus their efforts on making it easy to generate excellent, likely already illegal deep fake porn of random teenagers in “one click”.
I’ve been using oss for decades and almost nothing is that easy to do even when it could be. Why would people focus their efforts on this?
Also also, I don’t get why you think that generating AI porn of people around you is:
A) so much better than just watching the millions of hours of already available porn
B) anything even remotely similar to “seeing someone naked”
Tbh, I’ve always thought about it like this, making deepfake tech illegal would be like making photoshopping faces on porn images illegal. At the end of the day the technology itself shouldn’t be regulated, the end products themselves should be though. If you Photoshop some kids face onto some nude body, you should be arrested for possession regardless if it was “real” or not. The same should go for deepfake porn exploiting children.
However I see very little wrong with some guy photoshopping adult celeb or “friends” faces onto nude model bodies, same for those who do it with deepfake tech, just don’t distribute it.
Cant stop people from killing others with hammers unless we make hammers illegal guys
We’re not talking about whether we should make fakes. We’re talking about whether people who do, should be prosecuted - IE physically overpowered by police officers, restrained with handcuffs, and locked up in a prison cell. Some empathy?
If some classmate of your little cousin makes a fake, should the police come and drag them out of school and throw them in prison? You think that would help?
Realistically, it’s as likely to happen as prosecution of kids who “get into fights” for assault. Kids tell mean lies about each other but that is not resolved in civil suits over defamation. Even between adults, that’s not the usual thing.
Civil suits under this bill would be mainly targeted against internet services, because they have the money. And it would largely be used over celebrity fakes. That’s the overwhelming part of fakes out there and they have the money to splurge on suing people who can’t pay. It would be wealthy, powerful people using it against horny teens.
Also, this bill is so ripe for industrial abuse. Insert a risqué scene in a movie, and suddenly “pirates” can be prosecuted under this.
You do have a point about the excesses of police work, but if you want to talk about empathy you should also consider the position of the kid who is harassed and traumatized over something they didn’t even have any say over. There is some discussion to be had over what degree of punishment ought to be appropriate, and the need to limit police brutality, well beyond this particular matter.
But as far as demanding that every such work is taken down, and giving vulnerable people the means to demand so without exposing themselves further, it is perfectly reasonable.
Except that in the case of deepfake porn it’s not a matter of fuzzy two-sided conflicts. One side is creating the whole problem, and one side is just the victim of it despite not being involved in any way. That’s the whole point of deepfake. The most that lies might play into it is in finding out that the porn is real, and in such case there is even more reason to take it down.
Gotta say I have a hard time feeling sorry for the people who can’t be satisfied by the frankly immense amount of porn we have and decided that they absolutely must have porn from that one specific person who never consented to it. Maybe they are wealthy and powerful, sure. Does that mean it’s a free pass to fabricate deepfake porn with their likenesses? I don’t think so. Nobody is owed that. As much as you insist that it will be used by the powerful against the poor masses, it still seems to me that whatever regular dude decides to do it is crossing serious boundaries. This is not brave freedom fighter, it’s just an asshole.
I think most likely what will happen is that these internet services will just take those down. As they should.
If my little cousin makes AI child porn, of anyone at all let alone a classmate he knows physically in real life, I dont think he should be allowed to kick his feet and go about his day.
Like… Making kiddie porn of your classmates is not excusable because youre a horny teen. Sorry, bud, its fucking not
If two 14-year-olds get it on, they should both be prosecuted for child abuse? That is what you are actually saying?
You can only fuck by creating AI porn of the person you are trying to have sex with against their will? Are you a robot?
The people who think creating non consentual AI child porn is equivalent to sex need to spend time outside
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I feel we are in need of a societal shift here, just like another commenter said about the printing press. When that first came out, the pushback was from the worry that the words would be attributed to someone who never said them (reverse plaigerism). The societal adjustment to this was the universal doubt that anyone said that thing without proof.
For generative AI, when it becomes widespread, photos will be generateable for literally everyone, not just minors but every person with photos online. It will be a societal shift; images will be assumed to be AI generated, making any guilt or shame about a nude photo existing obselete.
Just a matter of time so may as well start now!
I agree that this is probably the inevitable end result of the proliferation of the technology. The journey society is going to have to take to get to that point is going to be pretty uncomfortable though I think.
There is no world where a law aimed at this type of thing will ever be used for its intended purpose.
Creating fake child porn of real people using things like Photoshop is already illegal in the US, I don’t see why new laws are required?
Well those laws clearly don’t work. So we should make new laws! Ones that DEFINITELY WILL work! And if they don’t, well I guess we just need more laws until we find ones that do.
Since we need a rule explicitly for AI related cases, even though it’s already covered by others, lets ensure that we also make a 100 page law for if the material is explicitly made in Photoshop, and also another 80 pages if it was made in Gimp. If you use MS Paint to do it, we need a special 200 page law that makes the punishment even harsher, because damn you got skillz and need to be punished more.
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No, I’m not criticizing the bill’s content. If you don’t enforce laws, new ones won’t work either. The new ones are, at best, an opportunity for people to huff and puff and pat themselves on the back at the cost of actual victims. At worst, it’s smoke and mirrors for what the new law actually does.
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Regulatory capture. OpenAI wants to kick down the ladder
This is not at all about protecting children. That’s just manipulation. In truth, kids are more likely to prosecuted than protected by this bill.
There are already laws that could be used against teen bullies but it’s rarely done. (IMHO it would create more harm than good, anyway.)
This is part of an effort to turn the likenesses of people into intellectual property. Basically, it is about more money for the rich and famous.
This bill would even apply to anyone who shares a movie with a sex scene in it. It’s enough that the “depiction” is “realistic” and “created or altered using digital manipulation”. Pretty much any photo nowadays, and certainly any movie, can be said to “altered using digital manipulation”. There’s no mention of age, deception, AI, or anything that the PR bullshit suggests.
FOSTA is still in effect and still causing harm to sex workers while actually protecting human traffickers from investigation (leaving victims stuck as captive labor / sex slaves for longer). And it’d still regarded by our federal legislators as a win, since they don’t know any better and can still spin it as a win.
I don’t believe our legislators can actually write a bill that won’t be used by the federal Department of Justice merely to funnel kids for the sake of filling prison cells with warm bodies.
We’ve already seen DoJ’s unnuanced approach to teen sexting which convicts teens engaging in normal romantic intercourse as professional producers of CSAM.
Its just more fuel for the US prison industrial complex. It is going to heavily affect impoverished kids caught in the crossfire while kids in richer families will get the Brock Turner treatment.
This bill is wholly for political points and has nothing to do with serving the public or addressing disruption due to new technology.
Until we reform or even abolish the law enforcement state, anything we criminalize will be repurposed to target poor and minorities and lock them up in unconscionable conditions.
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