China launches test runs for world’s largest plant that can convert coal to ethanol (www.scmp.com)
from L4s@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 02:00
https://lemmy.world/post/10146184

China launches test runs for world’s largest plant that can convert coal to ethanol::undefined

#technology

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CaptainSpaceman@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 02:37 next collapse

What a waste of time,money, and resources

Oderus@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 03:19 collapse

China has ghost cities with empty apartment buildings. They have tons of resources to waste.

dmonzel@lemmy.ml on 31 Dec 2023 03:23 collapse

Tell me you’re living half a decade in the past without telling me. “Ghost cities” are actually areas where the state preplanned urbanization so everything would be in place when people started moving in. In fact, most of these “ghost cities” are actually populated now.

…wikipedia.org/…/Under-occupied_developments_in_C…

Edit: could someone please explain why I’m being downvoted? I’ve provided a source to back up my statements. Or is this a case of “everything about China is bad because Red Scare”?

wikibot@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 03:24 next collapse

Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:

Under-occupied developments in China were mostly unoccupied property developments in China, and frequently referred to as “ghost cities” or ghost towns. The phenomenon was observed and recorded as early as 2006 by writer Wade Shepard, and subsequently reported by news media over the decades. Although a feature of discourse on the Chinese economy and urbanization in China in the 2010s, formerly under-occupied developments have largely filled up.

^article^ ^|^ ^about^

ABCDE@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 04:47 next collapse

65 million empty according to your link.

dmonzel@lemmy.ml on 31 Dec 2023 04:48 collapse

Many developments initially criticized as ghost cities did materialize into economically vibrant areas when given enough time to develop, such as Pudong, Zhujiang New Town, Zhengdong New Area, Tianducheng and malls such as the Golden Resources Mall and South China Mall.[15] While many developments failed to live up to initial lofty promises, most of them eventually became occupied when given enough time.[6][16]

Reporting in 2018, Shepard noted that “Today, China’s so-called ghost cities that were so prevalently showcased in 2013 and 2014 are no longer global intrigues. They have filled up to the point of being functioning, normal cities”.[17]

Writing in 2023, academic and former UK diplomat Kerry Brown described the idea of Chinese ghost cities as a bandwagon popular in the 2010s which was shown to be a myth.[18]: 151-152 

ABCDE@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 04:53 collapse

A myth is something which never existed. They do:

www.bbc.com/news/business-67610677 bbc.com/…/20170223-chinas-zombie-factories-and-un… www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17390729

dmonzel@lemmy.ml on 31 Dec 2023 04:57 collapse

23rd February 2017

ABCDE@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 08:01 collapse

I gave you three links (not a quote from one person on Wikipedia) with roughly five years between them, including this year, one of which was built in another country by the Chinese. Another would be the half-finished Sihanoukville in Cambodia, which saw China withdraw its investment and left many holding their bags. Overinvestment in areas with millions of empty rooms in China and abroad and a complete waste of resources is only contested by you.

Some more here: allthatsinteresting.com/chinese-ghost-cities

And here: businessinsider.com/china-ghost-town-deserted-chi…

And here: uschinatoday.org/…/cities-lost-in-limbo-are-china…

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 31 Dec 2023 05:50 next collapse

There’s another side to this. “Pre-planning” without proper forecast led to the housing crisis we are seeing today in China, with one of the largest developers in China Evergrande defaulting and filing for bankruptcy. A lot of people who were promised a good property and sunk their life savings into the project, now have no choice but to live in unfinished buildings in ghost towns without electricity nor water.

aljazeera.com/…/crumbling-buildings-and-broken-dr…
reuters.com/…/china-home-buyers-occupy-their-rott…

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 31 Dec 2023 17:24 collapse

I haven’t got into the article that much but sure, nothing is perfect.

Is it better to not even try and pretend its acceptable for people to be homeless, like they do almost everywhere else?

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 01 Jan 2024 10:29 next collapse

They’re not building apartments to give out to homeless people for free here. People actually had to pay for those properties and were scammed.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 01 Jan 2024 18:16 collapse

keeping the population homeless is better?

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 01 Jan 2024 23:30 collapse

Am I talking to a brick wall or what?

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 01 Jan 2024 23:52 next collapse

i have the feeling im the one talking to a brick wall.

would you rather pay rent to a banker for the rest of your life? flooding the market is a sound strategy to make cheap housing.

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 02 Jan 2024 23:42 collapse

Flooding the market with unfinished buildings? Are you on crack or something? You have to actually finish it to call it “housing”. And again, those property were built to be sold, and they weren’t going to undersell them. Leaving both the buyer and the constructor with no money is not called a “sound strategy”.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 03 Jan 2024 15:54 collapse

oh, they are building cities to scam everyone out of money and destroy their own country, as if they didnt print it like crazy already. it all makes sense.

thats a very intelligent strawman right here. great argument, bro.

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 04 Jan 2024 00:01 collapse

Even if it’s not done out of malice and it’s purely out of ignorance, to the end user/buyer, what difference does it make? Investors and employees alike protested in front of Evergrande office regardless, and owners are still left without a complete home, or without one entirely.

And are you really trying to give them a pass? A company so large they couldn’t afford to make proper financial forecast and decisions? A country so powerful and literally has hands in private businesses, they couldn’t see potential problems with it? Really? There were signs of a housing bubble since 2010!

Surprise surprise, China did end up actually detaining the chairman of Evergrande and some of it’s senior employees for misusing funds. Makes so much sense.

More stuff to read:
www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-66956769
web.archive.org/…/china-evergrande-default-debt.h…

Oderus@lemmy.world on 02 Jan 2024 02:31 collapse

You’re playing pigeon chess my friend.

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 03 Jan 2024 00:56 collapse

Maybe I am. Like, I won’t pretend to be an expert, but the fact that they said “flooding the market with houses is a sound strategy” on one hand, and said it’s a problem that requires a resolution on the other, just says to me that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

anotherandrew@lemmy.mixdown.ca on 01 Jan 2024 16:26 collapse

“Nothing is perfect” Is a hell of a way to minimize the enormity of the issue. Like wow…

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 01 Jan 2024 18:11 collapse

at least you have something to criticize, ill take it over literally nothing any day.

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 01 Jan 2024 23:50 collapse

Imagine being literally scammed into pouring your life savings into a property that is unfinished without electricity nor water, and then thinking “at least I have something so I shouldn’t complain”? Those people actually had something before, now they’re left with less than nothing.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 02 Jan 2024 01:52 collapse

you are acting as if everything was a big scam and literally everyone lost everything.

in reality this same thing happens occasionally all over the world all the time and has many possible paths for resolution.

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 02 Jan 2024 23:47 collapse

Sure. Please find me articles about places that have incidents happening in a large scale like this right now then. Or do big companies like Evergrande just default occasionally all over the world in your books?

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 03 Jan 2024 15:53 collapse

i have a feeling yoy can use google yourself to understand the situatuon

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 03 Jan 2024 23:20 collapse

You’re the one who made the argument. The responsibility lies on you.

Edit: and are you, who haven’t posted a single link here yet, really telling me, who did provide news articles, to do my own research? How ironic.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 04 Jan 2024 04:05 collapse

im not your nanny, you might be capable of research if you look into it. go ahead and determine the truth, im not about to dig back stuff for some random dude on the internet.

falkerie71@sh.itjust.works on 04 Jan 2024 05:03 collapse

Lol

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 06 Jan 2024 00:18 collapse

lmao 👽

Cyberjin@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 14:03 next collapse

most of these “ghost cities” are actually populated now.

Because you believe China’s propaganda

I don’t blame you, Wikipedia sources are fairly old and everyone can add/remove stuff.

Recommend more sources after 2020

If you are bored youtube.com/watch?v=Qhwk3O6JHZk youtube.com/watch?v=dnp_MxXY9qs

dmonzel@lemmy.ml on 31 Dec 2023 15:53 next collapse

Wikipedia sources are fairly old

A few of the sources are literally from 2023. But do go on, it certainly seems like you’re here in good faith, right?

Cyberjin@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 17:04 collapse

Yeah, I’m not saying there isn’t anything newer “A few” vs what’s up to date

Wikipedia isn’t great place for sources because everyone can post and edit. We taught in school never to source Wikipedia for that reason.

Wikipedia banned seven users after reported ‘infiltration’ by a Chinese group engadget.com/wikipedia-banned-seven-users-after-r…?

China and Taiwan clash over Wikipedia edits www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49921173

I’m here in good faith 🙏

dmonzel@lemmy.ml on 31 Dec 2023 17:09 collapse

Wikipedia isn’t great place for sources because everyone can post and edit.

Then you can check the sources listed in the article. You’re not just supposed to take Wikipedia’s word for it, but you are allowed to click on the links in the references section. So either you’re not aware of this, or you’re not making this argument in good faith. In either event, because looking at the several sources in the wiki article I provided seems like it’s still not good enough for you, I get the feeling this conversation is going nowhere.

Cyberjin@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 17:26 collapse

Yeah, we should stop because you are not getting what I’m saying and probably can’t see why you being downvoted.

Cheers

wurosh@lemmy.ml on 01 Jan 2024 00:59 collapse

Not weighing in on either side of the discussion, but that’s a video that’s almost completely unrelated to the topic above.

It speaks to how overleveraged/poorly managed a lot of Chinese development was, leading to a borderline colapse of the construction industry, and largely leaves the subject of ghost cities unaddressed.

Cyberjin@lemmy.world on 01 Jan 2024 10:18 collapse

Chinese projects / developments are short-sighted. It’s a Ponzi scheme, Get money from new investors, pay existing clients. So just keep building.

They become ghost cities because building are not fully done for living, so people can’t even move in. The Infrastructure is incomplete like no proper transportation links, no jobs, no shops etc. there is literally nothing there.

wurosh@lemmy.ml on 01 Jan 2024 13:03 collapse

Ok, now I get the link you’re trying to make, but it doesn’t fully adress my question.

The one thing that’s still leaving me prickly is simply saying Wikipedia is wrong because it’s editable by anyone. That’s like saying FOSS is insecure because it’s editable by anyone. Neither the conclusion nor the premise is correct in either case. There are hierarchies & access controls in both that often yield better results than the traditional alternative.

Wikipedia is a treasure, and while it is still vulnerable to brigading (far more so than FOSS), this is far from the norm (especially nowadays) and should be backed up with specific sources and rectified.

While I do agree with you that Wikipedia shouldn’t be cited directly due to this vulnerability, it acts as an excellent contextual citation aggregator, and quite frankly I’ve often found it more up-to-date and less biased than some of the crap that made it past the peer review process in my college days.

For instance, if what you’re saying is true (shortsightedness), people may over the years still populate those areas (the claim of the Wikipedia article is that a lot/most of the ghost cities did). If you have sources stating otherwise, please report the article for manipulation and include them there. If you don’t feel like it, post them here and I will do so, despite knowing absolutely nothing about Chinese ghost cities, because I believe this is important.

Please don’t dismiss such a shining example of human collective action so lightly. It’s one of the few things that makes me believe there’s still some good left in the world.

Cyberjin@lemmy.world on 01 Jan 2024 13:59 collapse

Never said Wikipedia was wrong I’m just saying be careful because people can edit to fit their narrative, which has happened with like Russian and Chinese topics.


Sadly a lot properties are unfinished and left to rot away and will get demolish.

edition.cnn.com/2022/01/04/…/index.html

youtube.com/watch?v=Om6b0_ffyFQ youtube.com/watch?v=tj0-6am9cMY

wurosh@lemmy.ml on 01 Jan 2024 15:00 collapse

I’m starting to believe this is a bad faith argument. Do you have anything addressing the specific point of ghost cities actually (not) being populated now?

For those that are too lazy to read:

  • link 1: 39 buildings demolished for illegal construction
  • link 2: 50 second clip of 7 buildings that were never finished being demolished (no context, other than the buildings being there for some years)
  • link 3: luxury mansion development stalls due to missmangement/lack of funding, leaving people that paid for those homes without a property
Cyberjin@lemmy.world on 01 Jan 2024 15:56 collapse

youtube.com/watch?v=UPwtUTrwKRI wasted time and resources because everything is shortsighted and mostly affect the buyers.

How could they?

  • Unfinished buildings.
  • Housing market collapsing.
  • Everything on build on ponzi scheme.
  • Youth Unemployment has never been higher.
  • Biggest real estate players are in huge debt.
wurosh@lemmy.ml on 02 Jan 2024 18:09 collapse

No one is arguing any of the points above. But to quote the Wikipedia article:

While many developments failed to live up to initial lofty promises, most of them eventually became occupied when given enough time.[6][16]

Citation 16 is a Bloomberg article from 2 years ago in case you’re wondering.

Put yourself in my shoes, I can’t exactly propose edits to that statement based on a single youtube video of a ghost town existing.

Your conclusion ("How could they? ") does not follow from your premises, much as I agree with them.

Cyberjin@lemmy.world on 02 Jan 2024 22:48 collapse

youtu.be/BkReVej9xqA

China is all about face. Anything putting them in a bad light gets censored or spin to something else.

Xi Jinping eradicated poverty in China en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China There is no way, I could show video and pictures poor Chinese people. But can I find the numbers to prove it? Nah

Here is an example of data being censored youtube.com/watch?v=uA7VK5CbS8k

I’m sorry I can’t directly link you something 😭

wikibot@lemmy.world on 03 Jan 2024 23:20 collapse

Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:

In China today, poverty refers mainly to the rural poor. Decades of economic development has reduced urban extreme poverty. According to the World Bank, more than 850 million Chinese people have been lifted out of extreme poverty; China’s poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 0.7 percent in 2015, as measured by the percentage of people living on the equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms, which still stands in 2022.The Chinese definition of extreme poverty is more stringent than that of the World Bank: earning less than $2.30 a day at purchasing power parity (PPP). Since the start of far-reaching economic reforms in the late 1970s, growth has fuelled a substantial increase in per-capita income lifting people out of extreme poverty. China’s per capita income has increased fivefold between 1990 and 2000, from $200 to $1,000. Between 2000 and 2010, per capita income also rose at the same rate, from $1,000 to $5,000, moving China into the ranks of middle-income countries. Between 1990 and 2005, China’s progress accounted for more than three-quarters of global poverty reduction and was largely responsible for the world reaching the UN millennium development target of dividing extreme poverty in half. This can be attributed to a combination of a rapidly expanding labour market, driven by a protracted period of economic growth, and a series of government transfers such as an urban subsidy, and the introduction of a rural pension. The World Bank Group said that the percentage of the population living below the international poverty line of $1.9 (2011 PPP) fell to 0.7 percent in 2015, and poverty line of $3.2 (2011 PPP) fell to 7% in 2015.At the end of 2018, the number of people living below China’s national poverty line of ¥2,300 (CNY) per year (in 2010 constant prices) was 16.6 million, equal to 1.7% of the population at the time. On November 23, 2020, China announced that it had eliminated absolute poverty nationwide by uplifting all of its citizens beyond its set ¥2,300 per year (in 2010 constant prices), or around ¥4,000 per year in 2020. The World Bank has different poverty lines for countries with different gross national income (GNI). With an GNI per capita of $10,610 in 2020, China is an upper middle-income country. The poverty line for an upper middle-income country is $5.5 per day at PPP. As of 2020, China has succeeded in eradicating absolute poverty, but not the poverty defined for upper middle-income countries which China belongs to. China still has around 13% of its population falling below this poverty line of $5.50 per day in 2020. In 2020, premier Li Keqiang, citing the National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) said that China still had 600 million people living with less than 1000 yuan ($140) a month, although an article from The Economist said that the methodology NBS used was flawed, stating that the figure took the combined income, which was then equally divided.

^article^ ^|^ ^about^

Oderus@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 14:13 next collapse

I stated a fact and you bent over backwards trying to prove anyone who agreed with me was wrong.

Ghost cities are real. It wasn’t a ‘everything about China is bad’ comment like you whined so that’s why you’re getting downvoted.

Why get all defensive anyway? Is someone paying you to defend China from any criticism? You come across like you’re simping for China.

Do you get upset when people talk about winnie the poo?

4am@lemm.ee on 31 Dec 2023 15:11 collapse

Defensive like downvoting facts?

Yeah some urban preplanning didn’t work out but most of those cities are filled up to the point of working now.

I remember back then all those articles - “China is building empty cities! Ha ha so dumb! Who’s gonna buy that, they all work in factories!”

It’s pretty striking that an .ml user posted a comment defending a verifiable fact, and got 10 downvotes for being “uppity”. Oh, sorry for the Wikipedia link sir, I will think more about respect for all powerful America next time

You guys really need to clean out your brainworms sometime, this shit is embarrassing

Oderus@lemmy.world on 02 Jan 2024 15:54 collapse

I said ghost cities exist, and then you said they didn’t. That’s being defensive and then you went after other people who provided facts and you just got more defensive… and here you are now, being defensive. Do you know what being defensive means?

I don’t give 2 shits who downvotes you or why. Grow thicker skin if you can’t handle the internet son.

Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee on 31 Dec 2023 07:44 collapse

It’s the attitude we don’t appreciate.

Also, you’re on the back foot to start with on a .ml account.

Szymon@lemmy.ca on 31 Dec 2023 03:26 next collapse

China is able to pivot quickly on projects of enormous scale in part due to its political structure. I doubt many western countries would pivot so quickly and drastically for national interests in whatever you call this version of capitalism.

Filthmontane@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 12:15 next collapse

It’s just plain old capitalism.

khannie@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 13:14 collapse

With a sprinkle of dictator.

Filthmontane@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 15:35 next collapse

Trump isn’t president yet

girsaysdoom@sh.itjust.works on 31 Dec 2023 15:40 collapse

I’m pretty sure they’re taking about Xi.

Filthmontane@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 16:44 collapse

They’re talking about whatever version of capitalism you call the West. At least that’s how it’s worded.

galloog1@lemmy.world on 01 Jan 2024 16:32 collapse

That’s literally the definition of economic fascism. Private corporations that are subservient to a one party state. The efficiencies of capitalism directed towards the will of the people.

I think it’s important that people understand the core argument behind fascism because if you do not counter it, you allow it to spread. Sometimes not by name but in form.

It’s also my core argument against any non liberal radicalism but that’s not a popular view on this platform for some reason.

[deleted] on 31 Dec 2023 13:27 next collapse

.

forwardvoid@feddit.nl on 31 Dec 2023 16:23 next collapse

It’s not efficiency that makes people prefer democracy.

[deleted] on 31 Dec 2023 05:09 next collapse

.

victoitor@lemmy.eco.br on 01 Jan 2024 15:43 collapse

Source?

It’s funny how this image built of China to discredit anything they do leads a whole bunch of people online to just completely make stuff up on the spot against any positive news. When it comes to the point that a whole bunch of people are just making stuff up on the spot, we know how efficient the propaganda has been.

Dozzi92@lemmy.world on 02 Jan 2024 00:27 collapse

Project 2025 -esque

datelmd5sum@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 06:15 next collapse

What’s the point? For the drink?

lovesickoyster@lemmy.world on 31 Dec 2023 11:22 next collapse

the point is leaving more food on the table that would otherwise be used for ethanol production.

Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 31 Dec 2023 17:15 collapse

I’d guess for ethanol based fuels?

trackcharlie@lemmynsfw.com on 03 Jan 2024 00:46 collapse

Too bad the SCMP conveniently doesn’t link any research materials or evidence of this ‘vital’ energy production plan.

My bet is another bullshit project led by scammers. Just like that enormously retarded energy storage plan